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that not stretching thing is bullshit. how is that possible when in cars with timing belts they meed to be replaced due to stretching and in cars with timing chains the chain dont ever need replacing. Also same thing with motorcycles, dirveshafts and chains outlive belts.
larsenf responding to a comment by snowcone
08.17.09 - 4:00 pm
I think it's a pretty good idea if it lives up to the promise of being lighter, quieter, cleaner, requires less maintenance, but is still as durable, etc. It's well proven tech on motorcycles, so should be fine on a bike. I say anything that gets more people out riding and commuting and pleased with the experience is a good thing.
Be interesting to watch and see how this goes for The Great Trek Bicycle Making Company.
Wow...though....$929...you sure pay for innovation
timing belts are replaced in cars because they break, you have to replace them before they break
timing chains do stretch. the timing chain tensioner will retain tension for a while, but eventually the chain does need to be replaced when it stretches enough. what happens is the valve timing becomes retarded and performance drops. eventually even the chain will break.
snowcone responding to a comment by larsenf
08.17.09 - 4:12 pm
Biggest downside is difficult and little selection of parts, and also likely really expensive because it's new. So right now it's probably more of a hassle than just rolling your pant leg up.
Belt drives are actually pretty interesting... the problem is actually more along the lines of cog/chainring options.
Spot Bicycles has an interesting solution to changing belts by adding a removable plate from the drivetrain side rear dropout.
The belts are supposed to be very long lasting and strong, and unlike motorcycles and cars, will not go through the same abuse. I hear rocks in the belt might be a problem as it rotates over the chainring.... but i think some cranksets have an opening for debris to pass through.
Dont hate on Belt drives, I bet the single speed word is going to see more... I think its a great idea.
md2 responding to a comment by larsenf
08.17.09 - 4:28 pm
Belt drives have been around for along time... but they're finally starting to see mass production from Spot... And Orange bikes is supposed to enter the mass market too with a version.
I dont see how changing a flat would pose a problem, or else a chain would create the same issue.
Everyone needs to keep in mind this is pretty much a single speed drive train option, unless youre really awesome and add a Rohloff Hub to your bike...
md2 responding to a comment by Debut213
08.17.09 - 4:32 pm
If you read up on user reviews on this bike. they all complain about having issues with changing tires because of the complicated rear drop outs.. i dont have one so i have no idea what their talking about..
"timing belts are replaced in cars because they break, you have to replace them before they break"
anything can break, all belts in motors (timing, v-belts and serpentine belts) wear out and stretch. if your unlucky enough to have a car like some porsches you dont have auto adjusting timing belt tensioner so you have to retention the belt every 20k on top of replacing it ever 60k.
modern cars dont need timing chain replacements. by the time the timing chain would stretch that much your whole motor (rings and cylinders) would be tired. timing chains arent replaced anymore just like motors arent rebuilt. dont give me but blah blah this car that car, there are always exceptions like modern V8 jags. their timing chain tensioners suck and always break apart around 40-60k miles. cars from the 60s needed their timing chains replaces around 100k but usually you were rebuilding the motor around then too.
point is chains > belts when it comes to durability and longevity.
larsenf responding to a comment by snowcone
08.17.09 - 4:43 pm
Remember the selling point isnt really the longevity (chains dont last THAT long). Its more about the lack of oil/grease.
Plus as far as I've heard, these belts being used arent running into the problems associated with cars...cracking, strecthing (which they should, but *ahem* horz dropouts).
belts > chains / when it comes to cleanliness and adding to bike fetishes.
md2 responding to a comment by larsenf
08.17.09 - 4:50 pm
I dont have one... so maybe its true. the only thing I could imagine is that they have the axle as far forward on the drop out as possible, so as to not allow any chain... i mean BELT slack.
These seem like a cool idea... i almost bought one... just would rather wait for more gear options.
We'll see what happens, but its worth promoting. Especially for single speed mountain bikers. i imagine there is little room for chain *ahem* belt derailment.
All for it... Speaking of belts, I think Banana Republic should make use of this upcoming bike trend...
wheres my camera... i need semi-cute girls, messenger bags, ten-speeds from 70's, and the undying belief that I can make MOVIES... no matter the crap i put out.
md2 responding to a comment by Debut213
08.17.09 - 4:56 pm
timing belt tensioners are not designed to pick up the slack for stretching timing belt, they are there for installation purposes. when you install the belt, it cannot be taught, you install it with some slack, then you tighten the tensioner. from what i recall, timing belt tensioners are not spring loaded.
chain tensioners do not compensate for retarded valve timing, they keep the chain from jumping teeth, they have springs installed. most cars in the 90s used belts to solve the issues with chains. they have since returned to using chains, but i'm not clear on their reasoning.
snowcone responding to a comment by larsenf
08.17.09 - 5:05 pm
whatever, i think they are alright. Belts are a proven motorcycle drive tech but they still use chains on all high end sports bikes. Belts make less sense on bike though since you have to physically break the frame somewhere to get a belt on, see above pic and see treks website. also you can't have dérailleurs or change your gear ratio. i do think they have a market for commuters. i think a 3 speed coaster brake belt drive bike might be kinda nice. belts, internal gears, and coaster brakes are all super low maintenance.
larsenf responding to a comment by md2
08.17.09 - 5:05 pm
Some manufacturers, such as Nissan, have switched back to timing chains for the majority of their engines because of the breakage problems associated with belts. However, in some newer engines, timing belts are designed to last the effective life of the engine.
they have already found ways of getting past this; i mentioned it above. look at Spot bikes.
Why all this comparison to cars? These are two very different uses.
I get it... dont worry... but they are being used... so i think your fears are being tested... you're not going to see worn belts... those belts are strong as hell....
less noise, easy to maintain....
md2 responding to a comment by snowcone
08.17.09 - 5:14 pm
yes, it still would, the forks would not be spread out so much and the wheel would be designed more like a front wheel. the problem is that it's too many specialty parts.
snowcone responding to a comment by braydon
08.17.09 - 5:21 pm
PLEASE keep in mind... this is more of an excitement (if its that) for the single speed mountain bike community.
Most SS mountain bikers (especially those spending $1500 on a new bike) already know their preferred gear ratio for trails and this hardly changes. Newbies generally have to change gears as they get stronger, but there are limits for what style or terrain you ride. Again... this is rarely going to be the first SS a mountain biker buys.
Of the commuters are interested for right reason (less to worry about getting dirty)...
but the SS gear ratio is still the same... once you have your ratio down--youre set...
md2 responding to a comment by snowcone
08.17.09 - 5:23 pm
if i really respond to this it would be so long and far off topic. let me just say being that i worked as a mechanic i can tell you timing chains are far superior and ive never had to change one, only belts. also what you say about the 90s and cars and belts is utter bullshit. generally american cars, british cars, BMW and Mercedes use chains more than not and all other imports use belts. all the problems you state with timing chains are non existent, just like belts dont really stretch because they are all replaced before they would. this of course only applies to roughly the last 20 years of automotive history. there are always exceptions to all of this.
larsenf responding to a comment by snowcone
08.17.09 - 5:24 pm
and sorry to relate it to cars i should of just related it to motorcycles. speaking of which i still want someone to make a driveshaft driven roadbike. http://www.dynamicbicycles.com/buy/Bikes.php?prodid=63
wow, didn't realize how fucking stupid you were, and being a mechanic doesn't mean you know anything about engineering. that's why mechanics don't design and build anything...engineers do. apparently you need to learn more about materials.
snowcone responding to a comment by larsenf
08.17.09 - 5:31 pm
If I buy one... I will know which gear ratio... actually which gain ratio I want (maybe this will change slightly with a belt drive, but thats beyond my genius).
This should not be your intro to SS mountain biking rig.
Of course you would have to change belts IF your belt is too short, but not necessary too long. you have room on the drop outs for some play. The SS mt bikers, dont make huge leaps like commuters.
Of course the market is short on options (i mentioned that above as the reason I didnt buy).... but it has to start somewhere.
Most SS riders have a gearing selected and never have to change it again... its the Johnny Come Lately that is pouring cash into their gearing (as we all did).
Just enjoy the advances as long as its not about JUST being lighter.
md2 responding to a comment by larsenf
08.17.09 - 5:32 pm
are you a automotive engineer now? i can tell you now i learned a fuckload more about cars how they work by fixing them than when i was sitting in a classroom studying them, asshole. unfortunately theory doesnt mean shit if it doesnt hold up in practice.
larsenf responding to a comment by snowcone
08.17.09 - 5:43 pm
I can see these belt drives being appealing to some people. A belt drive with a Nexus 8-speed hub would be a nice setup for someone that wants a maintenance free, no fuss setup. Hell, if money was no object, you could get a German hub that has (I think) 28-speeds.
I had a chance to ride a bike that had a belt drive. It was a foldie. Taking the belt off was no biggy, cause the frame pivoted at the chainstay. I was surprised at how little of an extra drag there was in pushing a belt as opposed to pushing a chain. But I don't want this extra drag on my drive train, so I'll deal with the pitfalls of a chain drive.
And in regards to the durability of these belts. These belts would outlast the bike. So all this talk about the durability of the belts is hockey puck!
All these comparisons to cars and their timing belts is stupid. Yeah, no wonder they don't break; they're the size of an M1 Abrams tank track!! (not the size of either a regular car belt or a bike chain).
i also imagine the drag will decrease with nicer parts... but do you think thats the deciding point considering the other benefits (outside of the limits of available products)?
md2 responding to a comment by User1
08.17.09 - 5:50 pm
i think its got more of a market in commuters than ss mtbing. like i said a nearly maintenance free/clean bike would a be an internally gear coaster brake belt driven bike
larsenf responding to a comment by md2
08.17.09 - 5:52 pm
oh i didnt see that. if i got my hands on one of those though it would be put on a nice road frame with a dual chainring front dérailleur and chain tensioner in back for a 28 speed racing machine
larsenf responding to a comment by md2
08.17.09 - 5:56 pm
Naw, the deciding factor for alot of people will be the ease of maintenance, ease of learning to shift, and dependability going way up. You would come pretty close to having a maintenance free bike here. Brakes would last quite a long time, as would tires. All these things far out weigh a little extra drag on the drive train for alot of people.
User1 responding to a comment by md2
08.17.09 - 7:19 pm
I feel it may snap after it heats up on a long ride and a quick pump off n what about the skidding u pros do, i think those lil bumps would pop out the shading sprocket, then its gameover!
Oh brother! You guys have got to get your facts straight. Can I suggest you actually talk to the peeps that actually use this setup? Try starting at Strida Bikes Forum. They'll administer a proper beat down and send you on your way. Please do NOT hold back with all your assertions, such as the ones above.
User1 responding to a comment by madmelo
08.27.09 - 1:08 pm
I use a belt to hold my pants up and a chain to hold my cockring.
I agree with user1. hyperbole and uninformed opinion's won't settle the argument. But like with any technology like the beta vs vhs, superior quality doesn't always win out.
Foldie responding to a comment by User1
08.27.09 - 1:15 pm
i dont know about the whole "cutting the frame" part, would that really make it weaker if you have to put it back together? i dont see cutting my frame and expecting it to be as strong as before. do like the idea tho.
I'm always down for innovative new things and respect the effort put into new ideas. But I don't have any problems with chains and the price of a new chain and replacement parts is dirt cheap.
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Ive heard that its a major bitch to change flats because of the belt drive. i dunno but it does look perty..
haha
you're kind of missing my point.