Carbon or Not?
Thread started by
sexy at 04.2.08 - 9:06 pm
Does anybody know anything about carbon fiber frames, strength and durability?
I have always been advised to stay away from Carbon, from my friend around here. That one stress point or crack and the frame is gizone! That those stress points and cracks are easy to get. Worse yet, if it fails while riding, and the bike crashes, causing injury to thyself.
The bike store sales people are telling me that the carbon manufactured currently, is stronger then Aluminum. I'm having a hard time believing this.
Being that I am known to ride my horse "hard and put her away wet"
I've been advise to stay away from carbon frames.
I would crash, and drop my Giant OCR so much and the only damaged I would get, is a scratched up frame and components. (I have a feeling she is still in tack, could be wrong)
(Don't worry, if I ask to try your bike out, I'm extra careful with other peoples stuff)
What do you all know about Carbon?
What about frames that have partial carbon in them? Like the Seat stay or the top tube. I'm considering a bike with a carbon seat stay.
I don't think I have ever heard of anybody's carbon fork failing them. I have seen carbon handles bar break off more then once.
Please weight in on what you think about the durability of Carbon frames
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Stick with good old fashioned Steel frames.
However, is cost isn't an issue you may want to consider Titanium.
Sir Terrence Tuppins04.2.08 - 9:12 pm
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thanks, for telling me your input on carbon.
I'm don't particular like the feel of titanium. Love the feel of carbon and the lightness of Aluminum.
I know, I'm going to here alot of "steel is real" around here, that not the info I'm looking for.
sexy04.2.08 - 9:16 pm
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hey sexy, as you'll see with my bike on friday, the carbon fork and seat stays rule. super smooth ride. i guarantee you'll like it.
canadienne04.2.08 - 9:20 pm
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I've heard similar issues about carbon "failing" but tend to find it kinda sketchy. I guess I would throw a carbon fork on and if I was in the market for a new bike, I'd check out carbon rear triangles.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html
DetroitRider04.2.08 - 9:23 pm
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I know I'll like it, just want to make sure it is stable. That just my only concern, that it won't fail while riding. I love Carbon, although I remember riding this Lemond, that was part carbon, part alloy. Didn't think it was that special. Anyways, how could riding a bike that is part yellow, be anything but fun!?
sexy04.2.08 - 9:25 pm
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correction: how could anything that matches this be anything but fun?
(fits perfectly in bottle cage, btw)
canadienne04.2.08 - 9:28 pm
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If you're careful with your bike then get carbon fiber. If you're not careful, like I'm not, then don't get carbon fiber.
Any time your bike falls over or gets dropped you have to really examine the impact point. I've read too many stories of carbon fiber forks suddenly and catastrophically failing because of just a little nick.
You virtually never have to worry about those small nicks when it comes to steel, aluminum, or titanium.
toweliesbong04.2.08 - 9:33 pm
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aahahaha the boddingtons!
i like my carbon frames to have aluminum rear triangles. its light and it sort of cuts down on frame flex.
ruinedbyidiots04.2.08 - 9:33 pm
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I have not had any impacts that directly hit the frame, but I've been in a couple high speed crashes on my carbon bike. Have not had any problems with durability, although I have only had it for less then a year. I wouldn't toss it around unnecessarily however. Modern carbon is very strong, but it is also more brittle then metal. It may be as strong as aluminum (not sure), but if it does get into a serious enough impact it breaks rather then bends.
I personally think the fear of carbon suddenly failing is over dramatized. The truth I'm sure is somewhere in-between the nay sayers and the sales people. I like my carbon fiber, it makes me feel like I am riding a space ship.
GarySe7en04.2.08 - 9:34 pm
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i broke a carbon seat post in half.
http://flickr.com/photos/botanicamysteria/2293678845/
ruinedbyidiots04.2.08 - 9:45 pm
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I think it's great that we have a member that has brought up this question. It's concerned me too since more people are asking about it everyday.
We all contribute to global warming every day. The carbon dioxide you produce by driving your car and leaving the lights on adds up quickly. You may be surprised by how much Co2 you are emitting each year. Calculate your personal impact and learn how you can take action to reduce or even eliminate your emissions of carbon dioxide.
Take the test and see where you stand......
http://www.whatsmycarbonfootprint.com/
User104.2.08 - 9:45 pm
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how did you do that RBI? Break the seat post
sexy04.2.08 - 10:01 pm
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riding off a curb while sitting down. it was well below the minimum insertion line or whatever too. it sucked because then i had to ride home 4 miles on my iro without being able to sit down.
ruinedbyidiots04.2.08 - 10:04 pm
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I've broken Easton aluminum seatposts, too, though.
But back to the issue of carbon fiber there was a thread on LA Fixed where one of the guys had a very modest fall, everything looked ok, less than two weeks later his fork broke with zero warning.
I definitely wouldn't have a carbon fiber fork on my drinking and riding bike, that is certain.
toweliesbong04.2.08 - 10:21 pm
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RBI: You could've ridden home all Frog Like and what not.
SEXY: I am going to agree with Gary/Towlie. Personally, riding carbon for me is a little strange in that it vibrates a tad more than I care for.
NEWB31004.2.08 - 11:30 pm
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Sexy, you've got a sweet bike...how come you're on the hunt for a new one?
hatehills04.2.08 - 11:56 pm
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Cuz the next bike is always sweeter than the last. Well, not always, but usually, yeah.
toweliesbong04.2.08 - 11:59 pm
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I had a carbon bike for 8 years and it was fine. I have a carbon bike now and it is as stiff as aluminum. I've been happy with carbon frames and forks I haven't really broken one.
The carbon components I worry about are the seatpost, stem and handle bar. These seem to be more prone to failure. But the failure is usually caused by user error. The most common error is over tightening, follow the torque specs. Another is there is a weight limit for some components and some people just choose to ignore it.
sc_nomad04.3.08 - 12:09 am
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It's not Gary, it's Greg.
And it's not carbon, it's CABRON!
Joe Borfo04.3.08 - 12:10 am
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Thanks dennis, that is sound advice
Hatehills, I had a sweet bike. She committed sucide on the I-5. by jumping off the rack. Maybe I should have watched her more, maybe I should have secured her more. I can't do a "should of, would of" now, she is gone, and I must move on.
sexy04.3.08 - 12:22 am
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Look what you did , Hatehills. You made him cry.
Joe Borfo04.3.08 - 12:33 am
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Oh no!! That's terrible!
Were you able to salvage any parts? You had a bunch of Ultegra on there as I recall?
Full carbon's kinda scary. It is plastic after all. Carbon forks and whatnot are nice, but I'd trust a metal frame to take the abuse you dish out.
You liked my bike when you rode it, maybe peep the Fujis. Jamis makes a nice, inexpensive bike. They even make steel bikes with all the modern amenities for around $800-$1200.
I'm really sorry to hear about your bike. I can imagine how bummed you must've been.
hatehills04.3.08 - 1:58 am
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I hate to be another "steel is real" guy but yes, it is. Carbon rides nicely and it's strong, but it doesn't break gracefully. This might not be a big deal unless you're really heavy or have gorilla strength.
If I was getting a new frame, I consider these new wondersteels too. Frames made with Reynolds 853, 953, or True Temper OX frame are comparable to aluminum in weight. If you want to keep the weight down even further you can get a carbon fork.
cabhauler04.3.08 - 2:21 am
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Or cut down your beer consumption, or put light components on a steel frame, or carry less shit in your bag.
PC04.3.08 - 3:59 am
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Not trying to make a value judgement here, but I think that the kind of people who buy carbon-framed bikes are generally the kind of people that like to keep up with current technology and get new bikes or frames every few seasons, so the long-term reliability of carbon might be hard to pin down. Certainly professional racers fall in this category, and they're who a lot of the bleeding-edge, ultra-light components get developed for.
Since I'm (very much) not a racer, and I don't have a support van following me around, my rule of thumb has been to lean toward basic, tried and true equipment, including a substantial steel frame.
I'm not saying carbon is garbage. I'm saying that it was probably never intended to be used to make a long-lasting bike for rough urban conditions.
http://www.rivbike.com/article/bicycle_making/frame_materials
Also, steel and aluminum are way more recyclable than carbon, if that's important to you.
angle04.3.08 - 5:28 am
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Well, I certainly haven't acquired anywhere near the amount of units for an BS in structural engineering, but I live by this thought;
"Steel, two-thousand years, plus of metallurgical development.
Aluminum, carbon fiber, barely a hundred, if that.
Which would you trust under your ass at 30+mph?"
bentstrider04.3.08 - 5:52 am
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carbon bikes are made by giant corporations.
giant corporations have teams of lawyers and teams of engineers.
the lawyers get all nervous about being sued, and make the engineers overbuild everything.
moral of story: don't worry about it. carbon bikes are fine.
also, steel bikes these days tend to be made by crotchety old men who work out of their garage. they're angry that they're stuck in a smelly garage brazing frames while yuppies roll by on $3000 carbon bikes, so they have a bit of a chip on their shoulder regarding carbon and tend to post extensive diatribes on their websites. i think it's something to do with the oxyacetylene fumes.
stevestevesteve04.3.08 - 8:27 am
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Hey just get the one that you like, the one that has sexy written all over it, so what if it's carbon, most shops have a trial period where if in 30 days you're not happy you can return it,
I've fallen off my bike tons of times, aluminum w/carbon seat stay and fork, it's still holding up,
dannyzuko04.3.08 - 9:07 am
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GET THE COMBO and your mind will rest between the two extremes of your concerns. in the end you'll have no concerns and you'll love the ride. so what im saying is you'll enjoy an aluminum frame with cabon fork and seat and chain stays.
good luck on your next buy.
GOpez
Eddie GOpez04.3.08 - 9:24 am
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All strength comparo aside; the real question is "Do I need a cf frame?" "Do I need a lightweight frame at all?"
I can only speak for myself, but the answer is "HELL NO!" Our bodies adapt to whatever we ride, so riding a lightweight frame is only beneficial if you've trained on a heavier frame. If it's your daily ride then it's gonna feel like your daily ride no matter what material is used, so why not make it bulletproof.
Sexy, you have a stylin' CENTURION frame that is waiting to be built up. I think it's time to make that leap.
Eric Hair04.3.08 - 9:26 am
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carbon bikes are made by giant corporations.
giant corporations have teams of marketeers and teams of pseudo engineers.
the marketeers get all nervous about not having the lightest frame on the market and make the browbeaten pseudo engineers underbuild everything.
moral of story: worry about it. carbon bikes and forks fail suddenly and catastrophically.
toweliesbong04.3.08 - 11:00 am
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@eric hair
-I've been riding 30lb and up bikes for awhile.
I've noticed the difference when test-riding a 20 lb fastmover.
The weight and gearing generally gives me more for my muscle/lung capacity.
bentstrider04.3.08 - 11:03 am
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Just buy whatever bike won the Paris-Roubaix... (Cervelo R3)... Sure it's $5000, but it won the Paris-Roubaix, twice...
50km (in a 260km race) of cobblestones is plenty proof to me of the strength of a carbon bike.
e-rock04.3.08 - 11:08 am
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"I've noticed the difference when test-riding a 20 lb fastmover. "
What tires are on the 30 lbs and up bikes? How much pressure is in them? How much do you weigh?
If you weigh 200lbs it's unlikely you can detect a 5% difference of total rider and bike weight. Obviously the less you weigh the better chance you'll notice that 10 lb difference. But most differences in ride quality are due to features of the bike other than weight.
Towelies "reformed techno weight weenie" Bong
toweliesbong04.3.08 - 11:09 am
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I'm with PC on this. It cracks me up the cash people spend to save a fraction of an ounce. Their money could be far better spent just eating better. Often times these guys are not looking like Lance and could stand losing some weight. Yeah if you have a really low BMI and your a serious cyclist, then I can probably see spending the money to save an ounce. So far I haven't seen anyone in our rides that fit that description.
On another note, I thought that Giant and a few others have a life time guranttee on their CF frames to the orginal owners?
On another another note, the ride on those CF frames sure is sweet! Really does isolate the road vibration well. Still, I'll pass for another 5 years.
User104.3.08 - 11:12 am
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"50km (in a 260km race) of cobblestones is plenty proof to me of the strength of a carbon bike."
Keep in mind that if one of those race bikes gets dropped hard or crashed even slightly it gets discarded. Yeah, carbon fiber will last forever if designed properly and not dinged, but for an every day bike getting locked to parking signs, dropped while drunk, etc, it's not going to be happy.
Put it this way, ding a top tube on a steel bike and it will still last forever. Ding a top tube on a carbon fiber bike and you should have the frame (or top tube if possible) replaced.
toweliesbong04.3.08 - 11:12 am
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Ultimately, David, the choice is yours. But please know this: if you go and drop a huge bundle of cash on a carbon-framed racing bike and then hardly ever ride it, I am going to mock you mercilessly.
PC04.3.08 - 11:25 am
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my thoughts:
I have several bikes (plan to get more) each used for a specific thing...
track/single speed (alu/carbon fork): for riding around, general errands, commuting to work.
tallbike (lots of metal): for amazing!
super beater (old steel frame): for bike polo
I plan to get a carbon bike (or carbon/alu hybrid) for racing only, and also will probably get it insured depending on how much I spend on it.
I agree with what everyone is saying regarding taking a Carbon bike out on a majority of the MR events, but If you want to get a carbon bike, go for it, understanding that you should be careful with it.
e-rock04.3.08 - 11:34 am
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"tallbike (lots of metal): for amazing!"
many people have been building their own carbon frames at home, you should build a carbon fiber tall bike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just for amazing!
toweliesbong04.3.08 - 11:59 am
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@toweliesbong
-I'm 190 with 10% body fat, I could get lighter, but that would mean less rice and less weight-lifting.
But, enough of the personal-trainer-at-the-gym banter, onto what makes the rig, roll.
The Hummer I'm usually rolling on weighs about 25-30lbs, has 85psi tires, and a geared-down drive train.
Most of the time I'm maintaining a fair, average of 15-20mph on flats with NO WIND.
Only reason I assume a lighter bike light one of those CF's would do is because of reduced rolling resistance, incrementally less weight to push.
But then again, better components like larger drive-trains, and higher-psi(100+) could also do the trick.
The recumbent I currently have is more of a leisurely cruiser than a rocket.
Weighs in at 47 pounds dry and the small, 20' rear, drive-wheel kind of limits any higher speed.
I've actually test-ridden a Bachetta recumbent with 700's, now that was a rocket!!!
bentstrider04.3.08 - 12:14 pm
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Ba Bum, Ba - boom boom, Ba
Ba bum, Ba - boom boom , Ba ...
Joe Borfo04.3.08 - 1:10 pm
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Purpose will determine whether Carbon will be good. If it is your go fast bike then carbon is fine. You've already got a steel bike, you can use that as your MR bike. If used as recommended, a carbon bike will last a long time. My 1998 Trek 5500 has over 45K miles on it and it is still in great condition.
You will hear a lot of stories about carbon failing catastrophically but that it how carbon fails, its the nature of the material. What is more important than how it fails is how often it fails. While I do not have the failure rate of these products, I can tell you what I know. I spend too much time in bike shops, almost 10 hrs every week. Almost all carbon failures are cause by something else not the carbon itself, a bad crash, getting hit by a car, falling off a rack.
While carbon is good for the frame and fork, I will not recommend it as a seatpost or a handlebar, maybe for a pure racing application. The torque requirements on those products have to be followed. And since those are the products you, as the owner, will be adjusting constantly the probability of failure increases. For those component I recommend aluminum, which is actually lighter in those applications.
I have a couple of carbon bikes I ride a lot and I am very happy with them. For MR rides I have a steel IRO that serves that purpose well.
Agitator04.3.08 - 2:08 pm
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Also, if you were to by a carbon bike buy it new or someone you know. The few component failures I know of happen to pieces that were purchased used. Like with any product, you get what you pay for.
Agitator04.3.08 - 2:13 pm
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good posts...
if you're going for Carbon...make sure there's no weight limit on the frame either.
some fancy racing frames are designed to be lighter (thinner walls, etc) for a lighter rider....
I'd be hesitant to ride a racing type all carbon frame as a city/beater bike... I would definitely not jump curbs and stuff, unless it's designed for that purpose.
and as for a "urban" bike, the less fancy it is, the less you have to worry about it ... so a nice shiny new carbon frame might attract attention that you don't want
and most carbon components have torque instructions, so make sure to follow them! It'd be sad to crack a nice piece because you weren't paying attention
... I said crack...
adrian04.3.08 - 2:26 pm
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I think Sexy stopped reading this a long time ago.
hatehills04.3.08 - 2:37 pm
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I recently went through this same conundrum myself, and ended up going with a high-end steel bike (steelman stage race) 'cause i wanted something i didn't have to baby and would last me many many years. I think what it really comes down to is what kind of riding you want to do with the bike...I like riding centuries with friends a lot more than racing, so the ride of steel and a lack of weight concern factored into my decision...then again, i haven't weighed it or anything, but built up my bike has got to be under 20 lbs, if not 18.
I would only buy a carbon bike if i had the disposable income and will to buy another one in two years (in the event i crash or drop it one to many times)...while i'm sure it's not as bad as many say the idea of my frame splintering at speed is not exactly confidence-inspiring.
The really ironic thing is that i bought this bike so i didn't have to baby it, but the midnight-blue-sparkle paintjob is so incredibly sick I treat it more carefully than i probably would a carbon frame :D
Lance K04.3.08 - 4:10 pm
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Yes I have read this thread, and I will say the story of what happen to my bike,when I see you hatehills.
Thanks for everybody's solicited and unsolicited advice.
sexy04.3.08 - 8:47 pm
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This thread feels like a balloon that was inflated too much and popped.
Eric Hair04.4.08 - 4:31 pm
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