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Crimanimal Mass # 3 : The Freeway Traffic Jam Ride
If you rode a bike you’d be home by now!!!!!
The city is an organism plagued by congestion. Its corridors are blocked by overpopulation and car dependent laziness. Angry drivers are trapped inside their sluggish automobiles. But why should you care? You ride a fucking bicycle and will most likely be home an hour before them. Crimanimal Mass is rising like the Phoenix, out of the ashes of a longstanding legacy of carbon emissions and car-culture.
The traffic looked like it wasn't going more than 10 mph. Going 30 just might be dangerous and get us a ticket. Unsafe speed due to conditions blah blah blah....... But if we were doing the same speed as the cars, I'm so there!!
And this coming from 'breaking and entering' dude from Mar Vista....
I dont know guys, this looks kinda dangerous and when SMPD hears that we have jumped on the freeway... boy hows that going to look? Are we gonna kill the ride for good?
Freeway killas. I have long fantasized about this. I pass the 10 freeway all the time going over bridges in Santa Monica, and at peak times the cars are so pathetically slow. It could be potentially dangerous, and is illegal, but I love the message this sends, that driving a car is not always the fastest way between two points in this city.
What Borfo said.
Even in San Francisco where the Police was extremely tolerant letting us take 45 minute "breaks" camped in the middle of the busiest intersections they drew the line on the Freeway.
And what does "crimanimal" mean ?
You want to associate bikes with crime? You are not my friend.
You want to show commuters bike riding is faster?
Do it on surface streets during rush hour. Olympic, Wilshire, Venice blvd etc.
Want to send a message to freeway drivers?
Unfurl a banner from a bridge.
I can't imagine a single driver seeing a bicycle on the freeway and saying; "oh gosh, why didn't I think of that earlier?"
And since when faster is better? If you want to go fast, the best vehicle for the job is a motorcycle not a bicycle.
This is just an "I dare you" act that young boys like to engage in. Wake me up when you grow up. I've seen that movie already and it makes me sleepy.
Does anyone know what the ticket would be for this?
BTW, I'm still fighting my ticket in SM. This would two tickets if I get ticketed. The one I'm fighting is at a stalemate. I'll petition for this to be dropped after a year in the court system. The story continues........
I just go with my gut feeling on things. And I don't feel good about the freeway idea. I am Just giving my opinion. I don't meant to nay say.
Like Bike Punk said earlier, "If there were more actual anarchists on CM it would be run a whole lot better and be much more effective. "
You have to admit, this is a Midnight Ridazz forum, and suggesting ideas that would incriminate anyone or put them in harms way just doesn't seem to fit.
I don't see you poop pooping the drag races. The drag races don't do a thing for the bicycle image either. In fact alot of the stuff we do is because it's fun to do, not because it improves the image of the bicyclist. Whatever that image is suppose to be. BTW, this trying to uphold this image is starting to sound like organized religion. Trying fit everyone in their flock into worshiping robots. Following this preconceived plan for you. Count me out when we become all the same! And yes I'll still be your friend when you become this mindless robot. I'll just feel a little more sorry for our society.
Why does it come across that I'm angry? Should I put at the beginning of each of my comments, "with all do respect" and maybe at the end "cordially yours", "respectfully yours"? Why not just address the issues? The points made?
I have a question for you! :-)
You said above, Like Bike Punk said earlier, "If there were more actual anarchists on CM it would be run a whole lot better and be much more effective. "
Me -
Really? How so? Were there anarchists at the SBCM ride referenced yesterday, like those guys? What did they do that the current LACM is missing? What can we benefit from by having anarchists at the LACM rides? How is it that you are such an authority on CM rides when you are never at them?
With all do respect, cordially yours, respectfully yours, User1
Al,
you are old enough to know that in any movement comes a moment where a subgroup says;
"What we are doing is not working. Let's do something more radical. Let's start burning shit. Lets start blowing things up. Then the "man" will start cracking down on us and then masses will see the injustice and they will rise up".
Whatever. I'm probably giving too much credit to juvenile pranksters here but the point is that when you cross a certain point where you start attracting excessive law enforcement attention you are not only harming yourself (by going to jail, wasting time in courts, paying big fines) you are also decimating the movement around you. What happens is that even the people who are not interested in radical actions get the excessive law enforcement attention and then lose interest in participating. So everybody clams up and goes back home watching TV. The system wins.
That's why in the 60s whenever someone would show up and say "Let's get some guns" they knew he was a narc.
I think Roadblock has spent quite a bit of time and thought into making this website look like it's above board. Good, clean fun.
Why the first thing that appears is the "Thank you officer". ?
Posting items that are expressly illegal from the get go such as "The Freeway Ride" and earlier this week something about "breaking in AND vandalizing a closed hospital" violates the spirit of the website and attracts attention to the rest of us that don't want to participate in criminal acts. Five people can ruin it for the rest of us.
Didn't you use the same arguments when you saw some people vandalizing an AC unit during a CRANKMOB ride?
I'm not against civil disobedience. Breaking the law has its place as political speech. Like the guys who who climbed the bridge in SF and unfurled the FREE TIBET banner. But somehow this looks more like a JACKASS scene. Lets do something stupid and put it on YouTube.
There's a clear difference in breaking and entering and trespassing, yeah/no? These guys walked into a building that was unlocked and I believe open. I draw the line at leaving no trace and take nothing but memories when we are talking about an abandon building. You practice these guidelines yourself with your scouting don't you? If not, you would be spending all your time researching and spending out request for permission, and following up with phone calls, etc etc etc.
The CRANKMOB incident was clearly an act of damaging personal property. Why didn't you speak out about it? What's that about people that do not speak out about a wrong is just as culpable as the violator? So you condone this destruction of property but are against someone wanting to have a little fun by riding on the freeway? Still I have yet to even hear if this is illegal. Seems like it's not illegal on a certain part of the 5 going to SD.
All the rest of what you said just blah blah blah, if there's something I didn't address and you think I need to, feel free to point it out.
With all do respect, cordially yours, respectfully yours, User1
I have no viable references or articles to display for you.
I support anything that promotes free thinking. I brought up what Bike Punk said because I believe that if we were to educate ourselves a little better on autonomous movements, develop a security culture, and follow our passion through planning and methods, I think we can start to affect the society as a whole.
However, this is not a political forum, it's about riding our bikes and having fun. It's about developing a community of people who are bonded together through riding bicycles. Doing things that lead to potential consequences to me is not beneficial to the community.
I may be doing illegal thing and you wouldn't know it because I don't blurt it out on open forums. And then again maybe I don't.
You gaise are going to do what you want. I'm not stopping you. I'm just suggesting you rethink the matter.
And what does "crimanimal" mean ?
You want to associate bikes with crime? You are not my friend.
Crimanimal is a spin off Critical... Critical Mass becomes Crimanimal Mass. Maybe you're not aware that the west side is animalistic. Pigeons and Angelopes and Crimanimals roam these streets.
User 1 wrote:
There's a clear difference in breaking and entering and trespassing, yeah/no?
Yes. I'm all for Trespassing. Legalize Tresspassing!!!
These guys walked into a building that was unlocked and I believe open. I draw the line at leaving no trace and take nothing but memories when we are talking about an abandon building.
I am with you. But that's not what I read on the NEXT GNARERZILLA thread.
Does "wreak havoc" equal "leave no trace behind"?
As for the why I didn't speak out on the AC CRANKMOB thing you are being silly. I can't participate on every thread going on here. In fact I'll stop participating on this one cause I got shit to do and it's only 4 hrs till 5:30.
Oh one last thing.
Good point whether it's legal or not to ride on the Freeway.
I recall an earlier thread or was it in some cross country bike forum where some Freeway sections are OK to ride and some are not.
I think if there is no alternative to the Freeway route, it's OK to ride on it.
Obviously there is an alternative to the 405. It's Sepulveda and it's as bumper to bumper as the FWY.
it's illegal to ride on any freeway with a sign posted at the entrance in black and white banning cycles. The sign must be in black and white or it is considered suggestion or advisement but not real law. Green signs, and yellow signs are not law. The typical white sign with black lettering can be seen on just about any onramp in the city and bans specifically pedestrians, bicycles and 'motor-driven cycles' which is a fancy way to say 'mopeds.' Highways (like PCH) where these signs do not appear are legal to ride your bicycle on (at your own risk). It is not okay to ride on signed freeways even when there is no alternative bicycle route but your case can often be argued and won in court. In the scenario described at the top of this thread, no one would have a reasonable defense in court... which is all the more reason to do it anyway.
to me riding on the freeway is different from a critical mass, midnight ridazz, wolfpack hustle, etc. because it is a stunt.
its dangerous and entertaining and i am attracted to it.
that being said, i have always wanted to hit the freeway at rush hour because one of my favorite times to mash pedals is when it is the most congested.
if i could offer a few pieces of advice. if you choose to take your bicycle on the freeway, please be a competent strong rider, and understand the risk you are taking (both the safety risk and the risk of poolice). and keep it low key.
Riding a bike in LA IS a political statement. You would have a hard time finding people in the general public that may would disagree with that statement. You support free thinking, yet not CM, hows that? CM is leaderless which leads to group thinking and free thinking. You don't have a leader(s) telling you what to do do or how to act. What's not to like about that? So you consider CM riders less educated about our world and our society than the other bike rides we have? I'm trying to understand why CM needs anarchist and how they can benefit CM. I'm not really seeing your point. I've yet to meet an anarchist that knows how the world works better than you or me, or many of the ridazz that are on our rides.
@ Marino,
Yeah posting that statement wasn't exactly a bright move was it? Well hopefully the people know better than to do that now. If they are doing illegal activities, the last thing you want to do is post them on the net, right?
My break is over too.
Joe, I really would like to discuss with you further tonite how LACM can benefit by having anarchist on our rides. I never got an answer if those were anarchist on the SBCM ride or not. Hopefully you'll let us know.
With all do respect, cordially yours, respectfully yours, User1
This is silly. If you want to ride on the freeway, you should have come with us up to PDX and hook up with zoobomb, or you should have come with us on LA to SD. It's legal to ride on the freeway from San Onofre to Oceanside.
In both cases I've mentioned above, you are enormously more likely to come away from the ride without going to jail, or getting seriously injured. For zoobomb, the cops tolerate that route. For the San Onofre to Oceanside stretch, its legal, it's not a traffic area, and the shoulder is huge. By the way....there is a bunch of debris on the freeway. On our last ride down to SD.... mixtemotions had a flat right in the middle of the freeway stretch.
People stuck in traffic often get angry at just about anything. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if a motorist intentionally harmed a cyclist by opening their door or cutting them off. It's pathetic that people can be like that but you know they can.
If you go through with it, let us know how it goes.
Allan said - "You support free thinking, yet not CM, hows that? "
Stop putting words in my mouf as usual.
I've always supported CM. Yet I have some disagreements to how certain Masses operate. Just because I don't have the opportunity to make it out to every single one doesn't mean I don't support it.
And about the anarchy thing - Forget about it. It's a misinterpreted many faceted word that lends to many different types of thought. I was simply making a point to what Bike Punk said. It was in regards to the subversive movements, and yet most anarchists don''t believe CM is a means toward anything anyways.
This sounds dumb. And possibly fun. But also dumb. Did I mention dumb? OK, then... have fun...
I don't buy the argument that this is going to make drivers reconsider anything. Is somebody in a car really going to think "why, look at all these bicycles on the freeway... that looks like a viable transportation alternative. I now truly see the error of my ways - BikeJesus take me now!"
As much as I would like to believe that drivers could be convinced to take up a two-wheeled commute just by seeing us on the road, I don't think the freeway is a good place to do that. The freeway might be a good place to thumb your nose at drivers, right before you grind both your thumb and your nose into a bloody pulp when you run over an old radiator hose.
Doing this as a smaller ride with people you know is probably better than trying it with a big mob of strangers whose skills and level of douchebaggery are in doubt.
And of course there are cops reading this board. Who did you think was posting all those pics of David Hume? The po-lice are all over that Scottish Enlightenment shit.
I don't buy the argument that this is going to make drivers reconsider anything. Is somebody in a car really going to think "why, look at all these bicycles on the freeway... that looks like a viable transportation alternative. I now truly see the error of my ways - BikeJesus take me now!"
Who made this argument? Let them be shown and we'll flog the lot of them!
Sorry, I guess nobody was making that argument, so I was attacking a straw man. Got confused in Borfo's and User1's back-and-forth about what's best for "the movement."
Man now there's hay all over the floor. Let me just clean that up...
man, boogalooshrimp... why use the MR forum to find people for your ride? Why don't you just get some of your like-minded friends to go with you? Let's say you have all of the experience you need to complete your ride. Let's say you have friends who have the same... Why do you use MR to promote your ride? You have already said that you are ready for the worst, so to speak. But, what if just one of the riders that you get to come with you isn't ready for the possible consequences? Just one. What if they get hurt? Would you consider your ride a success, then? What if a newbie goes to jail because they saw an enticing ride, that to them, would make a difference? And... they went to jail? Would you consider your fide a success if either of these possibilities came to fruition?
Take it to your friends.... let everyone else alone. No offense intended.
Sorry, but this ride idea is just dumb and immature. You'll be ruining any possibility of having a group ride (CM or not) in Santa Monica & vicinity for the future.
I swear, some of you people are focusing ideas and all these "f*ck the man!" type rides and it's like focusing on the bark of one species of a tree, while there are people who would rather focus on the entire forest, and even more still that wold rather focus on the entire ecosystem - not the bark on one species of one tree.
Grow up.
You want better respect as a cyclist or a group in your area? Earn it.
You want people to reconsider their methods of transportation and get on a bicycle? Find a better way to convey your message - breaking laws "because we can," putting people in danger - whether vehicular or pedestrian - and creating havoc will get you nowhere, only deeper into the shit hole you play in.
Although I find the idea exciting, I think it was best left a secret event on face book with invitation by admin only as I first saw it this morning. I agree the MR forum is not the best place to promote something like this.
Anyone who does this should have excellent bike handling skills, be able to maintain a fast pace if necessary and generally have their shit together. There is no was to ensure this on a public forum. On the right time for the right stretch of freeway, I think this could be pulled off relatively safely, but it is a freeway and by it's nature has risks that do not exist on surface streets.
That being said, maybe it is reckless and not the best thing for the "cyclist image," but I still find it rad, and always pictured my self smoking people on the freeway on my bike.
IF YOU DO THIS RIDE, AND THE COPS CATCH YOU, EXPECT TO BE TREATED LIKE SHIT, ALSO DONT YOU EVER FORGET THAT WHAT YOU DO ON A RIDE, AFFECTS OTHER RIDERS, AND THE 'MR' CULTURE. THIS SHIT IS FUN, PLEASE DONT FUCK IT UP, WE CAN RIDE AND DRINK, MEET NEW PEOPLE, GET LAID, SMOKE POT, ( DID I LEAVE SOMETHING OUT?) AND PARTY ALL NIGHT LONG, I LOVE DOING IT, AND I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO EXCERCISE, AND TO BE A TOTAL ASS-HOLE, LOL
Fuck. I have done this before, as you know from the above posts. And, I've been on the 110 and the 405....on a bke....BY MY SELF. I didn't need any help. And, a group ride like this has a high possibility for sadness.
Would I ride my bike on the 110 or the 405 again? No. I made it. It's done. I wasn't trying to tell everyone about it , either. And, I think that I would be fine if I never did it.
*What if they get hurt? - And you don't consider any other ride as people possibly getting hurt? I think every ride is a possible physical damage ride.
*What if a newbie goes to jail. Jail? - You don't even know if it's illegal or not. If there's no black and white sign that states bicycles are not allowed, then it's legal as far as what I've seen on here.
*Sorry, but this ride idea is just dumb and immature. - People also say that about MR rides, CM rides, and basically any rides that you're not wearing spandex! I'm not swayed by their objection.
*You want better respect as a cyclist or a group in your area? - Who's looking for respect???? This is about doing something fun.
* You want people to reconsider their methods of transportation and get on a bicycle? - See directly above.
So far there hasn't been anyone that has shown that this is against the law. Prove it or stop saying it's against the law. If there's no sign at the on ramp, then it's legal is what has been shown so far. If you think it doesn't cut it for you, then don't do it. The only people it endangers is the rider. They take that chance. Get over the "this is a bad image" crap too. Everyone is in control of their own destiny. Just because we both ride a bike doesn't mean I have to live up to your image or you live up to mine. The argument I do agree with is that this may not be the best forum to discuss any possible ride. But right now it seems more of do we want to do this or not. I don't see a problem with discussing that openly. Just when and if the time comes for it, it's done secretly by those that know everyone else and not posted on a forum.
Oh yeah more thing, it doesn't seem any more dangerous than most of the street riding we do on the streets today. In fact I see it as less dangerous. There's cars wizzing just a few feet by me going 50+ mph and I find that far more dangerous than maneuvering around cars going 10-15 mph on the freeway.
can someone tell me the legality of rolling through red lights, open alcoholic beverages, amplified stereo systems, riding intoxicated, riding without lights at night, riding bicycles where your feet don't touch the ground, riding bicycles without brakes, carrying and using pot in public, lighting fireworks, tagging buildings, riding in multiple lanes of traffic, circles of death, riding on river bottoms, riding through the Grove, hanging out in parks at 2 am, and dropping stinkbombs?
^^^ don't get me wrong, i'm not particularly opposed to any of those activites, just saying, if you want to live your life by the book, that's all in the book.
Vagina Park@ Pico and Cloverfield at 5PM April 18th. We might roll 10 miles before we find our onramp. there will be talkies walkie. It might be the 405...it might be the 10, maybe it will be the 105...who knows. or the 90?
the 217 from the backside of ucsb to hollister ave in the middle of the night drunk as shit in a paceline with five or six other people = FUN
the 101 from carpinteria to la conchita in the middle of the night under a full moon moderately sober in a paceline with seven or eight other people = FUN
guess which one was legal and which one was illegal.
I'm more into it than out of it. But I'm not going to discuss what my plans are online in an open forum. This ride is best left as a "surprise" to everyone else.
I'm still at the point that this is not illegal too. That is of course being that the on ramp doesn't have a sign stating it.
Yeah okay.,...lets all go on this ride. It sounds like a great idea. And, hey bring you mom and your siblings, too. You guys are fucking great? Could you make a movie of it? I'm sure no one has ever done that!!! Fuck it.
And, you are alway angry and contrary on this site, Al. It is fucking annoying.
but i do sort of agree with the "keeping it a secret facebook" thing because we all know the bicycle scene revolves around ELITISM SECRECY TRADITION and tecate.
I checked out your route starting around Pico and that park. Chances are that traffic is badly backed up. But I can assure you a stretch of freeway right behind my place on the 405 is really terrible, traffic-wise, and is always a crawl. If you're open to options, consider getting on at where the 405 crosses National Blvd (close to Sawtelle), and you could ride down to the next off-ramp around Venice. This start point is where the 10 and 405 intersect so it's always backed up. Then the ride is all downhill. I'm not sure your original plan is downhill. That being said, you probably don't want to ride too fast anyway for fear of moving cars, etc. But this section of freeway is really congested on a consistent basis.
No sure I'm up for this. I'm conflicted. It's illegal, it's not likely to convert any car drivers into bike commuters, but it's hella bad ass cool.
Contray to who or what? It's because I pointed out the orgins of coal to liquification, I'm annoying or a contrarian. Since when does the truth take a backseat around here? Why does everyone have to have the same views around here? Why does some have to be silent if they have a view different than yours?
I guess I have a angry view sometimes when I see the destruction going on in the name of this nation. All in the name of progress or that's the way business is done around here. I should just keep this crap to myself like the Algalita Marine Research organization post recently huh? That would make things better! From now I'll talk about ponies and butterflies when I see you post something above me.
You come across as being very naive Tern. Quite uneducated too I might add. I find uneducated people quite annoying.
This ride doesn't make or destroy MR or anything else. Get over it. You don't like this ride, then don't bother reading this thread, it can't be simpler than that.
With all do respect, cordially yours, respectfully yours, User1.
if you need to continue this, I'm at allanalessio@yahoo.com
Maybe I come across as naive. Maybe I come across as uneducated. Well, if this is the case, so be it. I'm not into running you off a list of my credentials / achievements. So you can think what you want. I just think it's a bad idea to ask everyone out to ride on the freeway. Does that sound uneducated?
this is the fuckin same allan alessio that burned everyone out on the LA critmass list? good fucking god. allen go get a LIFE no one likes your endless arguing about nothing. you classmates didnt like you when you were in grade school and you argued about jumping jacks only now you're 60 and still havent gotten any poontang ahah.
note to everyone:
dont gt sucked into allan's BS. he jut looking for attention by arguing any old stupid point to death his only effective means of getting attention.
You're right, I screwed that up, I meant to make the point that Allan didn't have to decide about the freeway ride because he's going to be in the desert. That's the moot part.
That's like the time Allen wanted to give us bunches of advice on how to ride down to San Diego on one of the LA to SD threads, even though he had never done it before. At that point, I had ridden down to San Diego from up here six times. And, he calls me uneducated. Okay, I'm done. I have to get some sleep for the ride up to Ojai tomorrow. You are in my thoughts, Glo-Rider.
Your partly satan! The yahoo list is burned out, but it's from the mod and members that didn't give a shit about the LACM ride. Still don't know what half of you were doing on that list. Certainly wasn't about making the ride better. And speaking of making the rider better, I was the asshole that brought up the suggestion and fought to get the start moved over to Wilshire and Western. It'd still be wallowing around in self pity if it was starting at the old spot. By hey, that's how the shit goes huh? Fight for a cause and you get fucked in ass by the numb skulls too scared to speak up when they're suppose to! Tell the truth, I was so glad to get booted off that list. What's the action like now?
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Yeah that's what I thought!
@Nathansnider you shouldn't apologize for anything. Your original comments were right on. You did not create a straw man. Read again the first post of this thread. Look at the first picture.
"If you were riding a bike, you'd be home by now." This was clearly sold as a political action and after most people called it a stupid stunt boogalooshrimp started backpedaling.
If I was Roadblock I'd delete this thread and this ride cause nobody should promote illegal actions on this website. Yes I believe riding a bike on that section of 405 is illegal but if anyone can prove otherwise, I'll change my mind.
As for crossing red lights, drinking in public etc... No ride is promoted as such. I know many people who come to the rides and never drink anything but water. The point of the rides is to ride and socialize not to break the law. If some people end up breaking the law that's their personal choice not the point of the ride.
It appears that according to the law, riding a bicycle on the highway is only illegal when there are signs which specifically prohibit it.
CVC 21960
(a) The Department of Transportation and local authorities, by order, ordinance, or resolution, with respect to freeways, expressways, or designated portions thereof under their respective jurisdictions, to which vehicle access is completely or partially controlled, may prohibit or restrict the use of the freeways, expressways, or any portion thereof by pedestrians, bicycles or other non-motorized traffic or by any person operating a motor-driven cycle, motorized bicycle, or motorized scooter. A prohibition or restriction pertaining to bicycles, motor-driven cycles, or motorized scooters shall be deemed to include motorized bicycles; and no person may operate a motorized bicycle wherever that prohibition or restriction is in force. Notwithstanding any provisions of any order, ordinance, or resolution to the contrary, the driver or passengers of a disabled vehicle stopped on a freeway or expressway may walk to the nearest exit, in either direction, on that side of the freeway or expressway upon which the vehicle is disabled, from which telephone or motor vehicle repair services are available.
(b) The prohibitory regulation authorized by subdivision (a) shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected upon any freeway or expressway and the approaches thereto. If any portion of a county freeway or expressway is contained within the limits of a city within the county, the county may erect signs on that portion as required under this subdivision if the ordinance has been approved by the city pursuant to subdivision (b) of Section 1730 of the Streets and Highways Code.
In theory, I suppose if you found an entrance ramp which didn't have a "bicycles prohibited" sign, you could enter the highway there legally.
Those signs I've seen on the freeway that say "If you lived here, you'd be home by now," are they political in nature?
Maybe it is political, who cares. What I "backpedaled" on was when someone said that this ride had the intention on converting motorists whence upon seeing a flow of cyclists. I never stated that... I could see if you would get that impression if were planning on handing out flyers to tout the benefits of cycling and such.
Shit.. all I'm hearing is a bunch of "Let's not and say we did" jive.
@whoever asked: There are signs posted @ Lincoln ramp saying that bicyclists are prohibited. I believe there are signs stating the like at Cloverfield.
As to why bother with this ride? Shit... I dunno ask George Mallory.
I am not saying I condone this shit, but hell this sounds like a train wreck in the making and I want front and center! But seriously guys! If some one does this, they best record this shit proper!Something like this.
I knew that there was something like this in the books, just too lazy to look for it. I would go on this if I wasn't going to the Poker Ride. So you guys are going to do this even if there's signs posted? I would scout out for an on ramp without the signs first. Advertising the ride doesn't seem like a good idea either. You got haters and this site is more than likely monitored. Even with all that, I would join you guys if I was free.
To all the naysayers, an apology to sayers is in order. The act is legal as long as there's no signage and municipal code that states it's illegal. I'll take my apology on this thread.
Of the more than 4,000 miles of freeways in California, about 1,000 miles are open to bicyclists. These open sections are usually in rural areas where there is no alternate route. California Vehicle Code Section 21960 says Caltrans and local agencies may prohibit bicyclists from traveling on freeways under their jurisdiction and that they must erect signs stating the prohibition. There are no signs permitting bicyclists on freeways. When a bicyclist is legally traveling on a freeway, he/she may be directed off the freeway at the next off-ramp by a sign that says "Bicycles Must Exit." The freeway will be posted at the next on-ramp with a sign that says "Bicycles Prohibited."
Start scouting for the absence of signs or get some tools to help existing signs become absent. And once you find an on ramp why exit at the next exit? Go for 20 miles. For the life of me I can't remember ever seeing a sign that says "Bicycles Must Exit." .
can anybody tell me what the point is for this ride? i mean are you for reals? riding in the freeway? the more i think about it, im sorry but its such a stupid idea. i really do hope they think twice about this ride. i mean a bike as no place being in the freeway. period.
Can anybody tell me what the point is for this ride? i mean are you for reals? riding in the freeway? the more i think about it, im sorry but its such a stupid idea. i really do hope they think twice about this ride. i mean a bike as no place being in the freeway. period.
funanu
04.13.08 - 1:31 am
I think you are kind of stupid, and I'm picking on you because some of your piers posting in this thread have a similar stupidity.
HELLO - I think boogalooshrimp provided video documentation, and repeatedly noted that traffic moves about 10mph at that time.
So it's a street with slow moving traffic. Hence ridable.
I would hope that people would really read the first posting of a thread before responding, it would clear up, lots of confusion. (I'm guilty of doing this too)
I think Boogooloo Shrimp did a great job at explaining this ride, too bad most of you didn't really read it, before responding.
Maybe people don't realize, "Crimanimal Mass " is response to SMPD crack down on SMCM. I think this ride is going out of the box of that original idea, I like it.
I just read this thread and glad I was too busy to be part of it.
So many comments.
The SFPD, don't block the freeway onramp in SF, its the Highway Patrol.
I have always looked for those signs. They are written so small. There is very few, if any (freeway entrances) that don't have them.
I'm a former and present motorist, I should know. There is not too many onramps where I haven't seen them.
As a motorist, I would think that this would just kinda of freak me out, and bring a chuckle inside to me. (maybe some questions, as to what going on). I don't see motorist getting pissed. I don't think there will be enough time for them to even think about it, and comprehend it.
I do think if you are going in the shoulder/emergency lane, it would probably make the motorist who aren't inconsiderate, "happy", if the bike(s) was blocking the cars that decided to pass traffic, by going on the shoulder. That always upset me, that somebody wouldn't wait in traffic, and instead, take up the lane that is reserved for emergency vehicles.
I don't have a facebook account, so I wouldn't know about this, if it wasn't posted here.
Unless there happens to be a cop on the freeway, I don't see how anybody is going to get ticketed. This is going to happen all too fast for anybody to get in trouble. Most CVC violations won't get you thrown in jail, but evading a police officer will. Six month jail misdemeanor violation (and probably some flash light therapy).
Anarchy comes from "An", meaning without, and "archy" meaning hierarchy , or government. Anarchy means, without governance.
I do believe that is the spirit of critical mass, "no leaders" the ride goes where it goes, as a "big mass." Critical Mass is anarchic in its nature.
Satan on Tricycle, is doing a good job at taking over where CryBaby left off. Good job chap! Hail Satan!
I haven't been riding enough, to know if I can handle this or not. (My instinct tell me I could, my past abilities knows I COULD handles this, "no sweat", but I don't hardly ride at all anymore). If I get my replacement Jennifer before this ride, count me in (sellers said he is shipping it Tuesday from Illinois, UPS ground, so probably wont' get it on time, keep your fingers crossed.)
One thing for sure, that video above makes me miss roller blading more then ever. Off to craigslist to find me some inline skates.
If your not into this, I guess I won't see you there. ssshhh!
I must say, the fact of riding the freeway is awesome, but too many people will just...well.. i think kind of hinder the thrill of it. But we'll see i guess.
We know the popo reads the forums... I bet they'll be waiting :)
I've considered this idea before, but with "support vehicles" to cap and protect the pack of riders at the start and end. But since this is rush hour traffic, I guess this could be relatively safe and fun if everyone participating knows how to ride their bike well.
There are legality and safety concerns, but I don't see how this is any less safe than riding on PCH. I would definitely recommend mountain bike tires for this, 2+ inches in width. And some thick tubes just in case. Everyone should have either a horn or a whistle to make themselves seen/heard.
I'm very attracted to the fact that the freeway seems like the last unconquered territory for cyclists, the one place where cars can go and hide and leave us behind. I don't think this has to necessarily have a bad spin put on it. If we bring some portable stereos and act friendly towards to poor bastards stuck in traffic, it may turn out into a party for everyone.
I think someone should call up a news station a couple of hours before this ride goes down so they can send out a chopper. If we're going to go through all this trouble to ride on the highway, it might as well make the news.
And if you guys use walkie talkies, make sure they're handsfree!
I just read through this post and sorry to say but I am with Marino, I'm deleting the freeway ride from the calendar and soon after, this thread will likely disappear. You guys are certainly free to post this ride on whatever forum you like. In fact post it on Bikeforums.net they get way more traffic.
I think this ride is aimed at riding on the freeway. Is Wolfpack aimed at running reds, or is it aimed at HUSTLE? This looks like a freeway hustle to me.
Alex, you won't get a single author publication for your comments on this thread. So....how is the dissertation going? Are you all finished? I am under the impression that you are....
Maybe I'll see you at the block party today. Okay, bye.
Okay, I am going to put a fine point on it. I understand RB position, too. I agree. I've said so much above, and I'm stickin' to my tire levers on this one.
No block party for me - work got all backed up from going to Santa Cruz. I'm submitting at the end of the month.
I'd call them queries with prompts - not comments. I'd like to see Roadblock justify himself better. This seems like a semantic difference at most. I've never come to so many reds and ran them somewhat recklessly as I have on Cub Camp and Roadblock. So, I figure Richie and Roadblock have a Richer Reason for Removing this Ride. Saying it's not the intent to run reds on WP is kind of weak word play. When you go on a hustle ride you know you're going to run a lot of reds.
Come on - this is ostensibly a forum for discussion and free thinking . . . I don't really like the sometimes arbitrary decisions that are made about what is and is not appropriate - often without sufficient explanation.
I'm not going to blog this, because I'd rather see a tight group of skilled riders. But that doesn't mean I can make that decision for boogalooshrimp. Plus he made a big effort to explain and research the risks.
nah Alex, Richie hit the nail on the head. nothing more to it than that.
but seriously dont let this phase you Alex. I think a lot of people will go if you post it to your blog or SMCM email list you have so many ways to promote this without MR... CICLE blog for instance? Bikeboom? Bikely? Bikespace? and since when is posting it on here a guarantee that only "skilled riders" will show up. lol. remember that this site is for all people interested in riding including kids.
Tern - I see that RB is sort of with me on that BUT
RB will tell you as quick as anyone else that Midnight Ridazz is not the "what Roadblock thinks is wise" show. I don't give my political opposition a voice on my blog, but that's because it was never my intent to do so. MR is supposed to foster an open discussion and facilitate ride organizing, right?. So there must be a damn good reason for pulling this ride down.
Lars Lehtonen, who founded Bike Boom, is a diehard Vehicular Cyclist who wasn't a big fan of CM. But that's what Bike Boom facilitated in large measure, and it did a good job of it because Lars drew a distinction between what he liked and what Bike Boom was supposed to do. I know RB does the same . . . so lets hear why MidnightRidazz.com, as conceptualized by RB, does not like this ride or discussion.
RB - this is not my ride! I might go, but I am not the one who conceived of the ride, I did not research it, I did not post it, and I'm not an organizer.
My question is - why is this pulled of MR? I don't think Richie hit the nail at all = this is a lot more complicated than one pithy sentence can explain.
dude you already got the reply. and actually yes this site does have an element of "what roadblock thinks is wise" you know why? because I'm dedicated to the original non abrasive idea of midnight ridazz and I've dedicated myself to keeping the ride alive as it was meant to be. I get emails now and again from Police. do I want them to see something like the freeway ride posted on here? no. so that's it bud. you have many avenues to post this ride somewhere else and get people out. I dare you to start a freeway ride blog on LA Times.com and lets argue about this over there...
I see what you're saying, Alex. I just think we have a good thing going on MR. We do some really fun stuff. So, why press the limits? I said above that boogalooshrimp should take it to another place... like his like minded friends. I don't think there is an exact way to describe the ethic of MR, collectively. I don't know if that is wise, or even possible to explicate. I just like it when cops show up to support us.... and stuff like that--not that is always happens. I just think posting something like this on the MR forum won't help.
no. so that's it bud. you have many avenues to post this ride somewhere else and get people out. I dare you to start a freeway ride blog on LA Times.com and lets argue about this over there...
1) I'm not the organizer. Get it? Boogalooshrimp is a real person, distinct from me. He made you a custom bottle for an airhorn. Recall? You can meet him at Bikerowave from time to time where he volunteers. My goal is not to promote this ride, it's to understand why you're removing the event.
2) This LA Times argument is not making sense. I'm a GUEST blogger. I don't have infinite leeway about what goes up there. Furthermore, the Freeway ride is not even in my top 10 priorities. I post once a week there . . . so I'm going to post the most important stuff which will convince more people to ride based on the demographics of the readers of Emerald City. The freeway ride obviously is not going to make a lot of headway with 30 something Prius drivers.
I also never made a public or private commitment to openness or public control of content at my private blog. This contrasts from MR, where you have committed to keeping the discussion open.
3) Where's the love? If this is pissing you off, then maybe it's time to clarify the admin rules for MR. What's kosher and what's not? It's kind of hard for organizers if they have to try and anticipate your reaction.
Damn it, Alex..... you said you can't make it to the block party because of all the work you have to do. Now, you're sayin' it's spandex time... Well have fun on your ride. I would have liked to hang out with you at the block party
Laters, Man.
p.s. yeah, have fun on your ride, like I said before. Now I am turning the computer off and going to the block party.
"i think it's because this ride in particular is aimed at breaking the law. "
Me -
We showed that this isn't nessarily against the law, why is this point still being argued? For me personally I think boogalooSHRIMP put this ride up because it sounds like a fun thing to do. There maybe some bragging rights in there too. not sure, I can't read his mind. That's what it means to me.
No one has really made a point as to why this ride should not be posted. It's not because it's illegal, it's not because it more dangerous, what is it? And no I don't buy "what Richie said". This sets a bad example if its removed because some people object to it. If they object to it? Then don't go!
Rider and driver safety aside, no legal route was established. Maybe if a definite legal route was created and posted up that could change minds......?
Posting this on the Internet was stupid. You know what else is stupid? Wringing your hands over it hysterically (and breathtakingly hypocritically)like it's the end of precious "bike culture" as we know it. Epic fail, all around. You're all banished from the bike scene.
LA bike scene = PC. And I can't even ride bikes right now.
DUDE you finally got the Charles Bronson nose didn't you?????
RIGHT F**KIN ON!!
I'm totally with you on poop pooping the condeming of this ride before the facts were presented. The thing that really gets me is that there more violating of the law at most of the other rides than there would be at this ride! This is of course we are assuming we're going on to the freeway where there's no signs posted.
This is just my humble opinion, but I would recommend that you NOT delete this thread.
I understand deleting the ride, because it encourages illegal behavior. Okay. Fine. Cool. That I get.
However, I think that maintaining the existence of this thread on the site can actually be beneficial, because it shows the majority of the Midnight Ridazz community is against such things. I think the debate in this thread helps to paint the Midnight Ridazz folks in a more positive light since so many people are saying, "Uh, we don't think this is a good idea."
You're in charge of the site and I can respect whatever you decide. But, as I said, I think deleting the ride but preserving this thread can be a good thing which illustrates that the Midnight Ridazz are indeed striving to be safe, responsible and law-abiding members of society.
I tend to agree with Alex and Mikey that this thread should remain in an effort to maintain a healthy discussion regarding the laws and legalities of bike riding...where ever it may occur.
Now according to the California vehicle code...
(CVC 21960) Bicyclists may not ride on the freeways where prohibited.
So are bicycles banned from the freeways period? Or as the code says, "where prohibited"? Seems to me, if bikes are prohibited from all freeways, the law should clearly state that.
I won't be able to make this ride, but it is an interesting discussion.
I don't suggest anyone do this, but the most radical bike riding on the freeway video I've seen is Lucas Brunelle's Mexican Highway video: http://www.digave.com/videos/ He's skitching cars at high speed on the freeway.
His couch trailer documentary also shows some footage of towing the couch on the freeway. I don't recommend anyone try this either.
Skitching:
I don't plan on coming to the Freeway Ride that isn't happening. We'll maybe on the spur of the moment when I'm feeling crazy - no, I better not. Warning: Watching Lucas Brunelle videos can be hazarous to your health!
Although I agree with your message, I cannot back this ride. This is the kind of stuff that kills scenes and will put us in the spotlight with a negative undertone. When ever we get a hold of something good, someone has to try and make a point and kill it for everyone else. Let's not go down that road....
I don't even really think it would be that dangerous.....for intermediate riders.
It seems that freeway are some sacred place where cars can only go in on direction, on said side of the highway.
I have had many police interactions, detainment, citations, and arrest for various things. Things that people would look at me different, and things that people wouldn't want to talk to me again if they knew, and minor things that we all do, to things that some would be proud of me for doing.
In all my interactions with law enforcement, never had I have a LE officer become so hot at me, for going in reverse on the shoulder of the freeway, and this was a few feet of going backward.
I would Imagen riding your bike on the freeway, might get same type, "what the f__k are you doing, are you crazy" response from LE. It seems to be the attitude with some around here.
There are laws that we all break or witness others breaking, and never do I see people getting as offender, (or offended at all) as they are about this.
Is your intent in asking if freeways are sacred ...
To promote fucking with the system? Slaying some sacred cows?
Or to say they're so unimportant that we shouldn't make any statements about them at all?
This whole argument is just silly on a number of fronts.
First - promoting gratuitously illegal activities on a public forum is just a dumb way to get yourself busted and taint MR with the stigma of your illegal activities.
Second, in support of the first - There is no part of the 405 anywhere between Sepulveda Pass (and probably much farther north) and Long Beach (or points south) where it is legal to ride on the 405. If you find an onramp without a sign, law enforcement is going to argue that the sign was removed in support of the ride, even if it isn't true.
Third - If you are going to do this kind of thing, its probably much more fun to do it as a guerilla thing. A few bicycles lane splitting like motorcycles would be pretty amusing, and a few signs on riders backs with slogans like "if you rode a bike, you'd be going this fast" would be funny. Do it, film it, upload it to youtube from a public internet cafe and it'll probably be amusing. So call up some friends on a good day and just go out and do it. Illegal activity is not something you invite strangers along for. Period. Unless you enjoy being punished.
But it isn't particularly unsafe if done during rush hour traffic. I lane split the 405 on a motorcycle on a regular basis and a well ridden bicycle isn't going to have any particular issue when trafic is all jammed up. And I wouldn't fret about thick tires and tubes if you are going to lane split. The shoulder is a mess, but the spaces between lanes are as clean or cleaner than the bike zone on any street in metro LA.
Given the vagaries of police presence on the freeway, I'd want a scout with a radio to split the section in question just before the bikes ride the onramp in order to ensure they won't encounter an unexpected police presence.
Allan: yes, I did it. I got the Charles Bronson nose.
By the way, I hope I didn't mislead anybody when I said I was getting a Charles Bronson nose. The idea wasn't to make my nose look like Charles Bronson's nose; the idea was to make my nose look like Charles Bronson. I think the surgeons did a pretty good job.
If you don't want to ride on this ride, please show up to Vagina Park on Pico & Cloverfield at 5PM on Friday and you will get a free hat to wear on your ride back to Salem, MA. Don't worry, the hat fits over a bike helmet.
I have a freind with a high end model i could borrow(NO PROMISES!)
and a person in the front of the pack with a talkie walkie just so you know when to hop that soundwall (or when to put your hands on your head and spread em.)
Does anyone that still considers this illegal care to explain what the violation would be? Again, this is assuming the rida enters on a on ramp that doesn't have the signage that states no bicycles or pedestrians are allowed on the freeway, and that he/she doesn't continue on the freeway after passing a sign telling them to exit.
Feel free to call the issuing agency to get a clarification on this. I'll be waiting.
THERE ARE NO RAMPS WITHOUT THESE SIGNS. THEY ARE ON EVERY RAMP IN LOS ANGELES/SANTA MONICA. THIS IS AN ILLEGAL RIDE--BUT ONE FREE OF ILL WILL AND MALICIOUSNESS. IT IS A FUN LOVING ILLEGAL RIDE.
do you know of one that does not have one of these signs? if so, why don't you share and help make this ride happen. i'm not trying to be antagonistic i'm just reporting that when we went looking and filming traffic we saw one of these signs at all the on-ramps. it's usually in ruraly areas that those signs are not posted, areas where there are no other routes.
I'll be keeping an eye out for these signs, or the absence of these signs. No problem there. We just need an absence of these signs and a very congested freeway to make this ride work.
Any interest in organizing a "legal" freeway ride?
It's happened before.
The publicity would be much greater and much more positive.
But maybe positive publicity is not the intent.
you know, signs have this weakness, it's called a wrench, there's only usually 2 bolts that hold them on, i think they're 12 mm, but i'm not 100 percent on that.
the whole sacred thing, was more a statement, more then anything else? Thanks for your comment katiepoche, those are great statements!
Even if it isn't illegal, I still think Law Enforcement, will flip if they witness this. Illegal or allowable, those LE still have the power to detain, and investigate if they think a law has been broken. Unfortunately, they do treat people as they feel, regardless, of what they are suppose to do, or the way they are trained, (wrong or right).
I think everybody who plans on doing this should know that there may be undesired consequence if they are caught, and should most likely understand the risk involved.
I'm a little late to this thread and I finally took the time to read most all of these posts.
in no order:
@ pc, it is not handwringing for ppl to express concern about posting a blatently illegal ride.
@ the "sayers" this ride, unless conducted on a strech of hwy in sb or sd with no other road access IS illegal, there really is no argument about that. you know its illegal, the cops know its illegal, the bored frustrated drivers insenced by your liberation and invasion of their "sacred space" know its illegal. no sign removal or the lucky finding of a vandalized onramp will change this point.
also @ the "sayers" this ride may be quite dangerous. of all the lanes on the freeway the number 1 lane will have the fastest most erratic driving.
@ fbi, if u were really fbi you wound not ominously warn us of your presence you would alternately quietly spy on us, and provoke us to illeagal anction and instgate arguments and discredit the stabilizing forces in the group. in short you would talk a lot more like the "sayers" or perhaps you'd leave that to your buddy cointelpro.
@ bs
were you asking how to do this legally? if so I have no idea. it would be a major pain in the ass and a lot red tape. but it is possible. but ofcourse that would be a very different ride.
this is one of those sticky little things
that peels back the seams of this scene and this site.
I love all the debate, the richness of thought, and diversity of ideads. I'm not so fond of the ease of which people engage in name calling and using tactics of derision to put down ideas that are different than theirs.
It is astonishing to me that people feel so free to be rude assholes here when for the most part, you are all very nice in person, even with all the drunken antics I have seen on mr rides rarely does somebody act the asshole that I see here on a regular basis.
Call me a handwringing puratanical, sheep like, car worshiping pussy. but It is a terrible idea to have a ride like this any way associated with MR or the MR site.
This is not a paranoid concern.
This ride is 100% illeagal. It is a blatant FUCK YOU. It will not be tolerated by the cops, and it is likey that bored drivers will rat on you.
Don't get me wrong. go have fun, do your thing. I aprecate that any movement needs it's more "civilized" and more "millitant" factions. But please appreciate and respect that this type of blatantly illegal statement of civil disobediance can have very real negative concequences on MR and our entire culture.
You may be of the belief that it is utterly impossible for anything bad to come of this ride, or that even if it did, that badness could filter back to MR. But hopefully everyone can appreeciate that while the freeway is not sacred, midnight ridazz is, and the naysayers among us, want to protect a really beautiful thing.
As was pointed out by MikeyWalsh, CVC 21960 states where it is posted with a black and white sign stating specifically that it is illegal, it's illegal. Where it is NOT posted, then it's illegal. You have anything to the contrary? I know what your heart saids, but what's in the VC?
So far no one has pulled up any code to support their position. On the other hand the "sayers" have.
I am talking strictly about the VC, not what a black eye this would be or what would your mother think or etc etc etc...........
now, i'll admit i'm a little late on this whole discussion, but does that mean that if you get onto the freeway where it's "legal" you can stay on as long as you want.... what if you pass an "illegal" on-ramp...
I'm not sure, I'm betting that the cyclist would not get a ticket since he/she never passed a sign that they had to exit. After all, how can a person be responsible for knowing the signs that are off the freeway?
How can you call it ignorance? The motorist is required to read and understand the signs on the road they are on, not the signs off the road. Not the signs on some adjacent road. This isn't a question of ignorances or not.
I suffer from infrequent, short-lived, and severe bouts of insomnia. Once every three or four months, couple days. They give me very lucid dreams when I finally sleep, and then I remember the dreams very well. I dreamt about this ride last night.
We fought up until the second we got on the freeway, but then the ride went without a hitch. Very slow traffic meant lots of weaving, lots of waving, lots of startled people but little anger. More like disbelief followed by honking and nervous laughter and even some cheering. Then, "If you rode a bike you'd be home by now!" and they were less cheerful. Then traffic picked up, and cars could actually move to the side to let cop cars through, and they did, and we hightailed it outta there. Then we got root beer floats. Well. I'm not sure if the root beer floats part was the same dream, or the next dream. But we should consider them. They were really good.
I'm being flip. But I'm also being serious. Yes, there are dangers, and most likely it will not happen as smoothly as I dreamt. Drivers will be mad, and maybe aggressive and confused, and they'll probably call the cops on us if the cops aren't already waiting. People will probably get arrested. I, not being the fastest rider on this thread, will probably get arrested. It's more a matter of whether or not I'm willing to accept getting arrested or not. People on this thread have gotten arrested for far less.
But think about it. Do you want to have it on your record that you got arrested for biking on the Santa Monica Freeway? I do. It's absurd and delicious and perfect, and it makes my nose tingle, and it makes me laugh, just like a root beer float. Of course I want that.
We all had Root Beer Floats, I want to be in that dream.
Let just get Root Beer Floats after this ride in honor of Katiepoche's dreams.
The only way we are going to know what is going to happen is if we do it. There is some of us that will and most of you won't do this ride.
I'm sure everybody is going to want to know how it turns out.
For sure, It will be an adrenaline rush, I'm getting nervous and excited thinking about going down the freeway onramp
Notwithstanding any provisions of any
order, ordinance, or resolution to the contrary, the driver or
passengers of a disabled vehicle stopped on a freeway or expressway
may walk to the nearest exit, in either direction, on that side of
the freeway or expressway upon which the vehicle is disabled, from
which telephone or motor vehicle repair services are available.
so theoretically, let say if Richie's Motorhome is broken down, half way between the onramp and offramp, and we get past his motorhome, then we get caught. We could use his break down as a defense, even though we are riding bikes and not walking. I know, it silly, just a thought.
This is off topic, but relative to what is being talked about in regards to being a black eye to bike community.
When did the police start to crack down on SMCM?
Did it happen right after the first, "Swarm the Pier" Ride?
This question is relative, something happened that night, that was a slap in the face of SMPD. A SMPD recruiting poster/banner, hanging off the pier was cut down, by somebody on that ride, if any of you remember.
Actually, the organizers of the Festival of Lights swarm took the position that the city did not have the authority under the CVC to restrict that particular public road to one class of road user, hence the ride was legal.
You make a good point, though. When I was defending that ride on BikeForums SoCal, the tightassed True Roadies who inhabit that forum were insisting that it was a terrible idea--too confrontational, of dubious legality, would give cyclists a black eye, would alienate potential allies and frighten the horses and cause genital warts, et cetera ad nauseam yadda yadda boo fucking hoo...
The arguments about this ride seem to be all over the map. Everybody has their own reasons, I'm sure, but I have to ask: if this ride is supposed to make a statement, what is that statement, and who do you want to hear it? Is your audience likely to be receptive to what you're trying to say?
Or, assuming there's no statement... if the point is just to do the ride so that you can say you rode on the freeways of LA (check out my awesome spoke card!), then I truly hope everything goes off without a hitch. If the point is to mess with the cops, then I really, really hope this doesn't stir up that black and white bee's nest so much that bikers on the surface streets end up getting stung (well, stung more often than they already are, anyway).
Anyone who does this under the impression that it's completely legal probably hasn't thought it through completely. At best, it relies on a loophole, which may not hold up in court. If you're determined to ride on the freeway, by all means, go - DO it, but be careful about who you bring along, and make sure they know what they're getting themselves into. It would suck to have a fellow biker pissed off at you because of your reassurances that this jam through traffic was 100% kosher.
I'm disinclined to take part in something like this because I don't really see it having any positive impact, compared to a whole mess of potentially negative impacts.
The Swarm the Festival of Lights ride was clearly illegal. Violating both the CVC and the Los Angeles Municipal code. When the DWP banned bicycles from the Festival route, they were within their right and within the law. It was the bicycles that blatantly and willfully violated the law when they rode into the slow moving traffic of Griffith Park. I rode that night. The intent was to take “direct action” against what many of us felt was a discriminatory order against bicyclists. Unlike those guys who dumped tea into the Boston Harbor over 200 years ago, there was no damage inflicted upon city property. But the effect was to show the authorities that you can’t ban us, because we will ride against your unfair laws. Swarming the Festival of Lights ride solidified my belief that we must remain willing to take “direct action” to protect our rights as bicyclists, because according to the California Vehicle Code…riding a bike is a “right”. Driving a car is a privilege. Let’s not let them step on our rights.
-The local forum up here and BF seem to be inhabited by the same people, indeed.
Anytime something cool goes down, they'll either harshly ignore it, or outright attack it like they're lives will be in immediate danger.
If they stick to the outer-fringe roads that they're used to and kit themselves out as normal, I see no harm coming towards them.
As far as law-enforcement recruitment banner being torn down, why did that have to be done?
If it was anyway.
@skd RE: the Festival of lights you are flat wrong about the legality issue here, The DWP was in violation of the law by banning bikes on a public road.
from illuminate la:
"After all, it’s the law. CVC 21200 defines the rights and duties of bicyclists as being the same as drivers of vehicles. Section 21 states “…no local authority shall enact or enforce any ordinance on the matters covered by this code unless expressly authorized herein.”
There are no codes providing express authorization of municipalities to regulate cycling on non-freeway roads." (my emphasis)
Furthermore, their excuse for illegally banning bikes was a totally illogical , ignorant, and false claim of safety issues.
Further-furthermore it is real goal to get the festival of lights (which hypocritically claims to be green) to allow people to enjoy on bicycles and reduce the massive gridlock and pollution it brings to the neighborhood.
There is a reason why so many people that were totally gung-ho for the FOL Ninjas ride have issues with this ride.
The DWP is not a regulating traffic authority neither are the rent-a-cops that were on the scene. They didn't even bother to say anything when I cruised through the festival a few nights before the ninjas.
In short, the FOL ride was a well though out action with a purpose; in opposition to a false authority that was attempting to illegally (and illogically) ban bikes from a public road, which we have every right to be on.
That's very different than bombing a freeway because sombody stole a sign from the onramp.
for me personally, i wouldn't do this to stick it to anyone or anything. it simply sounds like fun and would love to see the expressions on peoples faces in their mirrors.
As much as I respect both your and illuminate la’s opinions, you are both misinformed. The DWP and the City of Los Angeles can ban any vehicular traffic, anytime it sees fit, based upon public safety and other such considerations. The State of California gives cities and municipalities a wide-berth to regulate their roadways. For example, it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk in the city of Santa Monica, but not illegal to ride on the sidewalk in Los Angeles, unless prohibited by a sign or a temporary city order.
Bikes were allowed into Griffith Park one night only, and banned during the rest of the Light Festival. This lawful, and I admonish you to find a lawyer willing to go up against the City of Los Angeles or the State regarding this issue. We were unlawful when we rode through Griffith Park that night…plain and simple. Just like we are unlawful when we ride through red lights on the group rides. Being unlawful is not always being wrong…it is just doing something to show that the laws may need to be amended.
"As far as law-enforcement recruitment banner being torn down, why did that have to be done?
If it was anyway. "
It wasn't taken down someone started messing with it but it was immediately fixed before the cops could do anything. BUT I'm so glad Sexy brought that up. if indeed smcm is being harassed because of the banner incident as sexy is implying we have a PERFECT example of the kind of ill will that can come out of doing silly shit like this and being blatantly disrespectful of the law. if sexy's implications are right, then it all makes sense. cops see a bunch of bike riders acting lawlessly, cops get mad and crackdown on everyday commuters and on other mass rides. great point sexy. and a great arguement against riding on the freeway.
now it's hard to say why the cops didnt do anything to MR the second time we swarmed the pier it was nearly as big and argue-ably more rowdy but maybe SMPD were willing to compromise since they saw that we were riding late at night rather than during rush hour and decided to only focus on the mass ride that occurs during rush hour which is far more disruptive to the status quo. would like to her sexy's insights.
as for riding on the freeway and finding a loophole on a technicality? lol. that's bush administration type shit. or trial lawyer behaviour. big corps behave like that when they are dodging the law. they ignore the spirit of the law and argue endlessly on technicalities in order to get away with all kinds of dirty behaviour. why act like them?
lastly, its just plain silly to even talk about this ride on a public forum for which cops are watching. i like what ideasculptor said.
Two points:
One--
the midnight Ridezz are pranksterish civil disobedience by nature and as a result, the general populace are with us. Anything more radical would turn that around.
and two--
cars are hard -- (especially at 60 miles an hour)
respectfully
rp
skd, I think we all understand the value of civil disobedience in the face of an unjust law. The Festival of Lights ride seems like a pretty clear-cut example of cyclists asserting their rights to ride on a public street.
I'm not sure that the same logic applies to this ride. Is anyone seriously claiming that we should have the right to ride bikes on the freeway in the middle of LA, where there are dozens of alternate (and safer) routes for a bike to get from point A to point B?
This ride wouldn’t be civil disobedience if there isn’t a sign on the onramp specifically prohibiting bicycles.
Also no one is calling for a ride on a freeway full of cars going 60 mph.
This was suppose to happen at 5:pm on a Friday, when traffic is backed up and traveling at 5-10 mph.
The idea, I believe and I did not come up with this ride, is to make a social, political and environmental statement.
If that is the case, it is far better than running naked down Madison Ave in the middle of December protesting animal fur sales.
"When I was defending that ride on BikeForums SoCal, the tightassed True Roadies who inhabit that forum were insisting that it was a terrible idea"
I need to get a bikeforums account. Swarm the Festival of Lights couldn't have been a more perfect night. We had nothing but support from all the people sitting in their cars.
These were never made. As most know, riders ride for a million reasons on MR rides. Political. Fuck Bush. Fuck Gas. Fun. Exercise, Party. Etc...
This ride as no agenda... But if it did...
@Nathan:
"I'm not sure that the same logic applies to this ride. Is anyone seriously claiming that we should have the right to ride bikes on the freeway in the middle of LA, where there are dozens of alternate (and safer) routes for a bike to get from point A to point B?"
Fine. Yes. I'm seriously claiming that WE SHOULD have access to the freeways... Maybe not as they're constructed now, but I think I would be hard pressed to find ANYONE that wouldn't like a nice stretch of lane from Santa Monica to Downtown similar to the one found at the Ballona Creek --> Culver City bike bath.
I've dreamed about this... Of how safe that would be... Of how fast that would be... Yes, I will claim that we should have the right to ride on freeways in the middle of LA. I'm dunno the statistics, but I'm sure that more people get hurt riding sidewalks, bike paths (SM Beach for example) surface streets with traffic usually riding your ass or inches away from you. I usually do feel safer on a dedicated lane going on San Vicente with cars flying at least a foot away from me.
Marina to Culver City on shitty ass Venice BLVD's crap ass bike lane where I got pulled over for exiting the bike lane to avoid being doored. TRIPPLE WHAMMY FAIL. Marina to Culver city via Ballona Creek. FOR THE FUCKING WIN.
Lane splitting 10MPH traffic on Lincoln Blvd. Scary. Thrilling. Dangerous. But ... fast.
Lane Splitting or taking the center lane by the Median, you know the nice emergency lane. Fast, safe and effective.
Call your doctor before starting your regimen. If you get scared or don't want to make significant legal changes to the Los Angeles bicycle system by any means necessary, discontinue use and contact your physician.
<3 <3 <3 I LOVE PUPPIES, ROOT BEER FLOATS, AND ITALICS!!!! <3 <3 <3
The City of LA and DWP were flat wrong in this instance, but they were under the jurisdiction to enforce the ban due to safety concerns. Was this safety concern a bunch of BS? You bet! But they still had the right to do so.
Now in regards to this freeway ride. stop calling this ride illegal unless you can prove it with the VC. You can't, the only thing you have is "it's gona be a black eye to the bike community", "it's gona piss the SMPD off", "it's gona make my mom real mad at me", etc etc et fuckin c! No one is considering taking a sign down, basically cause there's so many on ramps that don't have the sign that this is a non issue.
If this ride goes on an on ramp that doesn't have a black and white sign stating bicycles are prohibited, this ride would have far less infractions that happen on just about every MR and CM rides I've been on. There will be no running of the red light, no corking of traffic, or no drinking and riding. Hey, I might even smile and wave at the drivers!
This ride will be far safer than your or my ride today, wherever that maybe. Cause on this freeway ride we won't be dealing with drivers buzzing our ass from behind at 50+ mph! The traffic will be going 0-15 mph, far far safer, get it?
So where's all the VCs we'll be breaking for those that still maintain this is illegal?
<3 <3 <3 I STILL I LOVE PUPPIES, ROOT BEER FLOATS, AND ITALICS!!!! <3 <3 <3
SMPD's harassment of SMCM can't be reasonably tied to the first Swarm the Pier as SMPD started bothering us in July 2007 in earnest - and Swarm the Pier was in September 2006. SMPD's harassment of SMCM is most likely tied to one officer's clash with a rider who he tried to ticket and ran away in June 2008.
Swarm the Pier II probably did not receive police scrutiny because so far SMPD has shown no ability to figure out when other rides are. For example, they've never shown up for a Pier Pressure even though it has the same start location. I believe they don't know how to find out about other rides, and based on conversations with them I don't believe they even know other rides exist.
by publicly acknowledging that you are actively looking for a loophole ie searching the stretch of the 405 for that one ramp that doesnt have a bicycles prohibited sign (have you found one yet??), you are acknowledging that you understand that it is illegal to ride the freeway. that's big tobacco/bush admin tactics, the difference is that bush's inner circle and team of lawyers are wise enough not to publicize that they found the loophole before they acted. they would claim ignorance based on the loophole after the fact. loopholes are mostly lame. if you're going to ride the freeway then have the balls to just do it for the civil disobedience aspect of it not some pussy loophole shit. but have the wisdom not to publicize it on forum that cops or the general public reads.
"For example, they've never shown up for a Pier Pressure even though it has the same start location."
not the same time or the same day. meaning, they likely dont care about it because it doesnt disrupt traffic during rush hour. and yes they do know about other rides based on convos I've had. but your experience may differ.
Hey RB, maybe you can mix Nazism in there somewhere? This is not looking for a loophole, it's following something called the California Vehicle Code. Which it seems to not be able to defend your position at this time.
And the analogy that you tried to tie the Swarm ride to the SMPD was rather weak too. I forgot to address that in my last post.
Yes I still love puppies, root beer floats etc etc etc blah blah blah
There was a proposed by the powers that be that Crimanimal Mass Ride #4 Would be The Costco Ride... where riders would swarm the Costco, sans membership... ride through and out the door.
No, the next Crimanimal Mass is going to be the Bank Robbery Time Travel Ride where we travel back in time before the sub prime mortgage crisis and rob mad banks in 2003.
Crimaminal Mass #0: The Bank Robbery Ride. Inspired by the movie Heat, but on bicycles. But it happened before the movie Heat. And it happened before the North Hollywood Shootout. I'll buy my bullet proof vest in the future and have my grandson, who will finally figure out the wormhole thing, and leave it for me before the ride.
Well, I'm glad you consider those 3 conversations enough to make you an authority. I don't really think it's enough to get any kind of picture. I sat with SMPD leadership once in late July 07 for an hour, and again in September 07 for 90 minutes. Since then I've had numerous conversations with them outside of the station, more than a few conversations with council members, and I sat with the city manager for a 1/2 hour talking only SMCM.
My impression is that they don't really know about other rides. They may tell you that they just don't care, but they still ticketed you on WP didn't they? They don't know that Cub Camp brings 40 riders through at lightspeed, and they haven't been instructed to police them, so they don't care to find out.
As a lifetime anarchist, and prankster, I think this is a great thread- Getting this issue up and debated. I've ridden on interstates but never LA freeways. I've also been hit by cars. So I think if it's press you want and or recognition, you'd get it with a rush hour ride on a clogged freeway. The question is; what KIND of press?
As long as I've looonnnngeed to be confused with enigmatic, charismatic and the lanky likes of Alex Thompson... I shan't ever share the experience of knowing what it's like to be Alex Thompson ... Unless I lose a game of circle jerk with the old chap and I'd have a taste of what its like. I sure hope he eats a lot of cucumbers.
i love how everytime i think about writing something, then i click refresh and there are 5 new posts... Just enough time to read them and click refresh for 5 more. Nice.
We all know and understand that the places where bicycles are explicitly allowed on freeways are those places where there is no surface route available. Personally, I've spent a lot of time on California's freeways, the the no bicycles sign is quite a constant. While I'm sure you can find an onramp somewhere that has had the sign removed by an errant driver or someone looking to create a loophole, you'll find in court that ignorance of the law is not actually an excuse. You're arguing a semantic point - one that may, but is certainly not guaranteed to, get you off in a courtroom. But it won't stop you from getting a ticket.
Additionally, I don't believe that anyone who has written about this ride has committed to staying in the shoulder. Everyone has been talking about lane splitting, here, and I guarantee you that you'll get a ticket for doing it on a bicycle, whether there was a no bicycles sign on your onramp or not. Like it or not, lane splitting is neither legal not illegal in California. There is simply no rule prohibiting two vehicles from sharing a single lane. But cops can write you up for dangerous driving, reckless driving, rapid lane changes, failing to indicate a lane change, or about a half dozen other infractions if they don't like the way you are going about it - and that's on a motorcycle. So even if they can't nail you for simply riding on the freeway, they'll just hit you with a much nastier moving violation instead.
Finally, take a look at something like the environmental movement. Now, its possible that I may have known some folks involved in Earth First back in the 90s when they were doing their fair share of civil disobedience as well as activities that were more than a little gratuitously illegal. And one thing I can guarantee you is that, never once, did anyone write about an illegal action in the earth first newspaper or newsletters and they sure is hell didn't talk about them with people they didn't know, either. It's just common sense. Some things you just keep close to your chest.
This ride was not touted as a political action so much as an opportunity to do something a little fun and a little crazy and a little in-yo-face to LA car drivers. And as such, talking about it publicly, in advance, where anyone can see it, is just plain dumb. You will get caught. They will have researched beforehand exactly what they can bust you with and they will bring the hammer down. That's what I would do if I were in law enforcement, that's for sure. Riding bicycles on the freeway is dumb, from a LEO's perspective. They will want to stop you. Most cops can understand the incentive of a group ride to cork a red light and keep riding, and most will let it go in the right conditions. The same will NEVER be true of a freeway ride unless the freeway is closed to vehicular traffic.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating against the ride. I think it i fucking genius and hope it won't go down until I'm back in the country because I might...you know...want to get root beer floats afterwards with the folks who do it. But stop planning the thing in a public forum, and especially one that links Midnight Ridazz to it. Cause MR is a lot more important to me (and most of us, I'd think) than some brief ride on an LA freeway.
boogaloo I know who you are my friend. btw I never used your fire extinguisher airhorn bottle. its on display in my apartment... I view it as a work of art and would rather not chip the paint by actually using it. it's part of my ridazz memorabilia collection. I only asked alex to debate the merits of this freeway ride on other sites and promote it on other sites since he thinks it's so shocking that I pulled off this one. I wanted to see if he'd put his money where his mouth is. but....
Earth First! was for the most part finished using unlawful tactics in their campaigns in the 90s. The cause was taken up by ELF at that time. Wiki pretty much has it right if you want to read up on it. Your statement that they don't discuss illegal activities on a public forum is correct. But neither do we. We maintain it's not illegal, at least I do. We have the VC to back us up. What are you referencing?
In regards to dealing with trumped up charges it's a valid point. This is why I would want my actions documented on video. So if there was charges brought, it would show that traffic was going 0-10 mph. And lane splitting is legal. I don't know what the VC is, but it's in there. I used to ride a motorcycle, still have my motorcycle license, and I do know the laws for motorcycles. I'll dig this up later.
There's not some on ramp that someone has taken the sign off either. There's a shit load of on ramps that never had the sign posted to begin with. If I remember correct, I'll have to look when I remember, both on ramps I use to get on the 405, one in each direction, doesn't have a bicycles prohited sign posted. Does that mean I want to get on this freeway? No, it's not going 10 mph.
Discussion this ride will not have the world come crashing down on us either. If anything, it should be used to talk us out of doing this ride, so far all I've seen is "your mother is going to be real mad at you." How bout some VC to back that up?
ideasculptor said it best:
"You will get caught. They will have researched beforehand exactly what they can bust you with and they will bring the hammer down. That's what I would do if I were in law enforcement, that's for sure. Riding bicycles on the freeway is dumb, from a LEO's perspective. They will want to stop you."
Just because I posted the law and mentioned that a missing sign provides a "technical loophole" to ride a bicycle on the highway certainly doesn't mean I condone the notion of doing so. There is "legal" and there is "stupid" and just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I've never seen a sign saying, "Don't shoot yourself in the head." Doesn't mean it's a good idea to try it.
For those who think it would be fun and a nice anarchy, punkrock, fuck-you event, I leave you with another quote. From our wonderful Mr. Keating of Dead Poets Society. You've heard this before:
"Sucking the marrow out of life doesn't mean choking on the bone. Sure, there's a time for daring, and there's a time for caution, and a wise man understands which is called for."
And there comes a time to get off your knees and stand on your feet, and stop bowing to the false petroleum gods and sucking on their poisonous teat.
A time to take direct action against the mass murdering beasts of steel, to ride against their belching pollution.
And a wise man knows which one is called for.
"I sat with SMPD leadership once in late July 07 for an hour, and again in September 07 for 90 minutes. Since then I've had numerous conversations with them outside of the station, more than a few conversations with council members, and I sat with the city manager for a 1/2 hour talking only SMCM. "
do me a big favor Alex. will you please bring up your support for this ride next time you have a convo with all these important people? I think you would finally be able to answer the nagging question of this entire thread and get it all resolved. is this legal or not? loopholes and all. if anyone would know I'm betting the big shots would help get you in touch with the appropriate council to answer the question. it's already out there now... soon enough google will find it too.... lets get a real deal answer about this and put this dead horse to rest. then allan and alex and supporters of allan and alex can go off on their own and do what they need to do with the appropriate information.
also, I am hereby putting out an open call to Mr. Soapbox LA to give us his opinion on the matter. SOAPBOX where are you! I trust this man more than almost any other person when it comes to city issues and law and the cvc code. He has dedicated his life to it and I would like to hear his opinion. SOAPBOX SOAPBOX SOAPBOX SOAPBOX SOAPBOX SOAPBOX SOAPBOX SOAPBOX SOAPBOX SOAPBOX SOAPBOX SOAPBOX!! help SOAPBOX KENOBI you're our only hope.
"You will get caught. They will have researched beforehand exactly what they can bust you with and they will bring the hammer down. That's what I would do if I were in law enforcement, that's for sure. Riding bicycles on the freeway is dumb, from a LEO's perspective. They will want to stop you."
Me -
This is starting to sound like the boogie man argument. Yes Timmy the boogie man doesn't like little boys asking so many questions. They always come after the ones that ask questions. DON'T ASK ME what he'll do, he'll come after you and he'll be real bad. So do what you are told and stop asking questions.
Hey MikeyWalsh, there's no sign that saids you can go ride your bike out on the street is there? But you do do it anyways right?
i've been following this thread and trying hard not to get sucked into the fray. i do have a simple question, however. legally speaking, how different is riding a bicycle on the freeway from corking a stop light?
is all this hullabaloo about a traffic violation?
if it is, lets get real and put things in perspective.
rb is a fine moderator and he errs on the side of legality and responsibility. that's good for MR as a family. but every family has its bad boys and black sheep. and thank god for that.
Hey I'm not the one making arguements such as.......
"There is "legal" and there is "stupid" and just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I've never seen a sign saying, "Don't shoot yourself in the head." Doesn't mean it's a good idea to try it."
Why do we keep beating this poor horse?
Yes, it's legal to ride on the freeway unless there is a sign on the on ramp that says it is prohibited.
The whole debate has become:
- Yes it's possible to find a forgotten ramp in the city.
- No it's not possible to find such a ramp in the city.
A. Of the more than 4,000 miles of freeways in California, about 1,000 miles are open to bicyclists. These open sections are usually in rural areas where there is no alternate route. California Vehicle Code Section 21960 says Caltrans and local agencies may prohibit bicyclists from traveling on freeways under their jurisdiction and that they must erect signs stating the prohibition. There are no signs permitting bicyclists on freeways. When a bicyclist is legally traveling on a freeway, he/she may be directed off the freeway at the next off-ramp by a sign that says "Bicycles Must Exit." The freeway will be posted at the next on-ramp with a sign that says "Bicycles Prohibited."
Corking traffic, running red lights and drinking and riding are all clearly illegal. We have yet to have anyone point out that riding on the freeway is illegal. We aren't talking about sensible, or what your mother thinks, or what your heart saids. We are talking in the sense of what is written in the California VC.
So yeah, the other MR rides far more illegal than doing this ride.
A Midnight Ridazz ride doesn't encourage people to run reds. Corking just happens because it is the safest thing to do when the lights do turn red as we are crossing through them.
A Midnight Ridazz ride also doesn't blatantly encourage people to ride on the freeway. That doesn't mean the act of it will never happen as well... (it's just not condoned)
well Allan, I actually took the time to talk to LAPD officers on several occasions and so far I was told by at least one to keep the group together and to the right and was given the ok to roll contiguously through lights but not to run them at the front. Sexy was there when I talked to the man. I was also being heckled by some stupid ass reporter from FOX news who was trying to get a rise out of both myself AND the cop we went to the side and talked about the ride. and that's why on the front page I posted a "thanks officer."
Now if you actually were to put your money where your mouf is, why dont you put up an email and gather a list of people who are down and go handle yours. enough talking... go do what you feel and maybe even have the wisdom to talk with a cop about it too since you are so confident it's legal, in fact talk with a lawyer, a city councilman and anyone else who would weigh in on your ticket should you get one and put your theory to the test my friend. but damn, this is another dead horse issue until you prove it. the proof is in the pudding. handle it, show us that as you say, it's legal!
if it's not obvious why it was removed then I cant help you my friend, I would ask around perhaps post on your blog. get a reading of what the general public thinks of the merits of a freeway rush hour ride... ask those big shots that you have access to in the SMPD and the city council... do some research with a lawyer and find out the pros and cons and the loopholes.... you and Allan may actually be onto something. but I'm not going to allow it to be posted on this site. post it on your blog or somewhere else. perhaps LAfixed or Bikeforums would be mroe receptive?
You never saw the REI thread! Man I wish I had the power to delete some of my boneheaded remarks!
Don, can I see this "get out of jail" card you got? So we have a green light to cork now? What does it say about drinking and riding?
Why does getting to the bottom of a debate equate to beating a dead horse? Doesn't anything else imply that people don't give a rat's ass?
Personally I hope I have the opportunity to do this ride. I also look forward to seeing what if anything they charge us/me with. I'll be sure to do a few things though. Get on a freeway that isn't marked, make sure the traffic is going 10 mph or less, and most importantly, have someone video tape the thing. Cause I for one don't trust the cops!
"Personally I hope I have the opportunity to do this ride. I also look forward to seeing what if anything they charge us/me with. I'll be sure to do a few things though. Get on a freeway that isn't marked, make sure the traffic is going 10 mph or less, and most importantly, have someone video tape the thing. Cause I for one don't trust the cops!"
I hear you bro, beating a dead horse means to me that there is no other arguement coming from you than "it's legal" and no other arguement coming from me and others as "it's ill advised and/or illegal" so that brings us to the next stage which is action. since myself and other advocate for in-action, we have nothing left to do. but you and Alex and others advocate for action, so you now the choice is yours... you will either act, or simply be seen as talkers and not doers. I mean I personally wouldnt want to be known as only a talker but you might be comfortable with just being a talker and not a doer... whatever you feel my man but this is basically the end of the road though in terms of defining our positions... (notwithstanding the barrage of 500+ comments to follow this post)
1) I've ridden the freeway. Enci and I rode the 101 on our way to Santa Barbara. The onramp sign is simply modified so that cyclists aren't forbidden, the freeway shoulder has markings to indicate that cyclists are allowed, cyclists exit at every offramp and reenter the freeway at the onramp. It was a great experience, once we got used to the noise, the huge draft from the passing vehicles and the incredible amount of auto debris that litters the shoulder of the freeway. ( I also jumped on the 101 in Hollywood during a fit of sheer exuberance, howled at the moon and then rode through the gridlock before exiting at Gower)
2) There are over 1000 miles of California freeway that can be ridden legally on a bicycle. The rule of thumb is that freeways are open to bicycling when there is no reasonable alternate route. Approximately 25% of the freeway miles in California are open to bikes. Some notable examples are I-5 from Tracy in northern California to Lake Hughes Road in Los Angeles
County and I-80 over Donner Summit in northern California. That being said, it is going to be hard for a cyclist in Santa Monica to explain to the CHP "I saw no sign prohibiting cyclists and I saw no reasonable alternative route so I jumped on the freeway and started pedaling home!"
3) The potential ticket is the least of your worries. If you've ever seen the CHP and their zero-tolerance approach to crime, prepare for pain that will occur on location, not in the court room.
4) This ride is not for the social rider, in fact it is not for most. That being said, far be from me to discourage anyone from doing something that I found to be exciting. Be very cautious about enticing casual cyclists to join in an event that is far from a CM or a DWP ride in the park.
5) For those who choose to ride, Bike Speed to you. For those who choose to publicize the ride and argue for legitimacy, you've chosen a tough row to hoe. It is what it is, an illegal ride on the Freeway, awfully exciting but certainly worthy of some form of stealth and documentation and post ride celebration, not pre-ride pontification.
6) Ultimately, this ride would benefit from a significant dose of discretion and subtle, behind the scenes prep. To handle it so publicly is detrimental to the forum and to the ride.
See you on the...Streets!
p.s. For those that want to ride the freeway but are afraid of showing up on a "Tazed and Confused" episode of COPS, Caltrans is currently entertaining an application to close the Arroyo Seco freeway on a Sunday morning so that cyclists, rollerbladers, skateboarders, joggers and homeless people with shopping carts can ride, roll and run to their heart's content. Similar to the event a few years ago.
5) For those who choose to ride, Bike Speed to you. For those who choose to publicize the ride and argue for legitimacy, you've chosen a tough row to hoe. It is what it is, an illegal ride on the Freeway, awfully exciting but certainly worthy of some form of stealth and documentation and post ride celebration, not pre-ride pontification.
6) Ultimately, this ride would benefit from a significant dose of discretion and subtle, behind the scenes prep. To handle it so publicly is detrimental to the forum and to the ride.
See you on the...Streets!
p.s. For those that want to ride the freeway but are afraid of showing up on a "Tazed and Confused" episode of COPS, Caltrans is currently entertaining an application to close the Arroyo Seco freeway on a Sunday morning so that cyclists, rollerbladers, skateboarders, joggers and homeless people with shopping carts can ride, roll and run to their heart's content. Similar to the event a few years ago.
I think people are finished debating this. They really haven't changed my position and there's still unanswered questions. I'm up for the ride if you want to keep in touch and work on something.
First, I think GuyFawkes' little hypothetical dialogue is as close to reality as you can get. Draw from it a certain level of risk.
Second, supposing your onramp doesn't have a sign prohibiting bikes and you get on and there happens to be a CHP officer on the freeway at the moment and he's got nothing else better to do than get to you through the lanes of traffic and pull you over...and you bust out CVC 21960 and you attempt to "educate" him/her on the law....a number of things could happen:
1) He could still detain you, (maybe even in cuffs, for the public and their protection of course) and take you over to your on ramp and have him show you where there is no sign.
2)He could still cite you anyway because he assumes there is supposed to be a sign there. (Unreasonable, but very possible. See further comment below specifically directed at User1.)
3) He could pass up on citing you based on the lack of the sign (Take that, donut eater), but order you not to enter the freeway again because...BLAH BLAH (any reason you want, doesn't really matter.....not safe for you or the other vehicles, he doesn't like root beer floats, etc.).
4) You re-enter through your onramp and then he cites you for disobeying a peace officer's direct order. (Have fun fighting the cop on that one and expecting him not to appear for the trial.)
If you're lucky, he lets you go, but orders you not to re-enter.
If you got the bad karma with cops, you get cited for 21960, or some local ordinance prohibiting bikes on the freeway, or some other stupid shit you might have done like an unsafe lane change, failing to signal, DUI, violating the basic speed limit law etc.
@User1
I respect you for wanting to test the limits of cvc 21960 for the sake of promoting bike culture or sticking it to the system, but not for protecting your own pride in your logical arguments.
You seem to rely way too heavily on 21960(b). I would not consider it a "loophole" as some people here call it at all, but rather a "gray area" at best.
Unfortunately, I think you might be reading into it more than you think is there. 21960 simply grants Dept. of Transportation AND local authorities the right to prohibit the use of the freeway by pedestrians, bikes etc. If they are going to restrict it's use...they have to put up signs. OK.
It's about safety and commerce. In certain parts of the state, there is much less traffic on the highways and interstates and it is safer for bikes on those sections. Moreover, those areas that do allow bikes benefit from allowing them because it's a scenic route, people enjoy it, and there is a unique consumer (cyclists, tourists, adventurers) for that stretch of the highway that the local authority acknowledges and caters to in order to get their greenbacks in the cash registers of local businesses, which, guess what, the local authority taxes.
Now, back to the real issue....legal or illegal. Yes, they are required to put up signs. Yes, not all the on ramps have them. Seemingly a strong case, but may depend on the judge and his willingness to accept the argument that bikes on freeways are limited to that small percentage of highways (in Santa Barbara, San Diego and other touristy places), but certainly not in the middle of Metro L.A. or Santa Monica, where there are alternative routes and very obvious safety concerns.
Why are there no signs like this in metropolitan areas? It would be a waste of money (in the eyes of the local authority) that knows people just don't use bikes on L.A. freeways and don't need to be told. Yes, there is always that one person that will do something where there is no warning and a warning is required, they get hurt and sue for millions AND WIN. However, immediately after that media and voters are up in arms, city council or the state approves the new budget installing signs on all on ramps in L.A. and there goes the "loophole."
You'd be hard pressed to find a judge that would rule a CHP officer was wrong in citing you or ordering you off the freeway (and keeping you off) based on this safety issue. Even if they wanted to consider the notion that allowing bikes on the freeway during rush hour should be allowed because traffic is basically crawling and would be "safer" for the cyclist than on the streets, they would stop dead in their tracks and rule against you because ruling in your favor would be tantamount to legislating from the bench, which is NOT the role of the judiciary and would be subject to an appeal for abuse of discretion. "Local authority" does NOT include local judges. Lawmaking is left for the legislative branch, not the judiciary.
Ultimately, the CVC won't be your saving grace. It may depend on other factors: what else were you doing on the freeway, did you follow the cop's orders.
Also, if there is no prior case law on this, it may all come down to the judge ruling on this issue for the first time in state/county history and not wanting to screw up their reputation and chances for re-election. May come down to the judge's feelings toward cyclists or what side of the bed the judge woke up on or what he had for lunch or how busy the rest of his schedule is that day with bigger more complicated cases.
C'mon, man....freeways in L.A. were never meant for bikes....their development goes hand in hand with the growth of suburbia and the automobile industry. Unfortunately, the laws as written are meant to protect that system. CVC is not your friend on this one.
Don't get me wrong, freeway ride sounds sexy as fuck, but there are definitely risks to consider.
CHP, one of the last, law-enforcement agencies that I thought we'd have the least, run-in's with.
I've still got a written test to take with these guys, so I'll probably play the cards carefully regarding this one.
As far as freeway-riding up here goes, we've got the north and south-bound lanes open for bicycles when taking the 15 through the Cajon Pass.
I mean, there are way, too many back-roads to get lost on when riding from the desert, down into the IE.
The only harsh part about using this route is that you don't want to do it solo.
Most of all the desert commuters have little-to-no patience for bicycles on the three-laned, main arteries up here.
Out there, they're eyes turn white, skin turns pale, and all you hear is; "Raaawrrr blooaaaruuuurrrrr", and an accelerator pedal with constant pressure being applied.
i intend to get involved with this ride. if i get a fucking ticket, i'll fight it in the usual manner. if i loose, i'll take out my check book and not give it another thought. repeat... not give it another thought. it's just a ticket. it's just riding on the freeway when it's a virtual parking lot. i do like the idea of a sign stating the reason i'm riding... "get out of iraq. ride a bike"
4) just because a sign is missing doesn't make it legal
5) Midnightridazz (as far as I know, has never been about making a political statement or about breaking the law...it's about fun... so Roadblock is right in leaving this ride out of the loop)
6) does anyone want to get root beer floats WITHOUT doing this ride?
Hmmm... we should have a root beer float ride (across town) at the same time this freeway ride is happening
Thanks for taking the time to explain your view on this. I find your response the most plausible and complete in answering the issue. Yeah sadly it would boil down to the officer's perception of safety and the judge's hemorrhoids on the day of the trial.
For me this ride is not about promoting bike culture or sticking it to the system. It's about doing a fun ride and having bragging rights. I need to bag me a legitimate highway. A highway in the middle of nowhere just ain't gona cut it for me.
5) Midnightridazz (as far as I know, has never been about making a political statement or about breaking the law...it's about fun... so Roadblock is right in leaving this ride out of the loop)
adrian
04.16.08 - 1:43 pm
_____
@Adrian ...
I completely understand RB's reasoning for deleting the calendar post. And I completely understand if he deletes/doesn't delete this thread.
This ride was NOT a Midnight Ridazz sponsored ride, which I guess, was confusing to me when I first started riding. It took me a while to figure out that most of the rides were started by people that went on MR rides, not created by the MR "Staff".
The ride, at it's core had no stated statement, other than the freeway is traffic jammed, let's ride through it!!! The reasons people would join this ride are many, as seen throughout the thread.
Fuck Gas! Fuck Iraq!
Ride a Bike, it's sexxy fun!
Fuck Cars!
Bragging Rights!
etc...
The freeway seems the final frontier for bicycle riding.
What would happen if some guy sitting in freeway traffic sees a bunch of people weaving in and out of the gridlock, then thinks to himself...."if i get a bike I could ride from my place in Santa Monica to Downtown LA in less time than it takes to sit in this damn traffic."
What happens if one person ends up changing his/her commuting pattern because they saw some crazy bicyclists riding on the freeway.
I am not saying it will happen...but just imagine....
It's not about paying for a ticket. It's NOT about whether biking on the freeway is right or wrong. For me, anyway, it's about showing people that there's an alternative to driving on the freeway. Especially when "driving on the freeway" means idling for hours.
Fighting a ticket for biking on the freeway is retarded. The statement made by biking on the freeway is divine. You can do better, car drivers. Give it a whirl.
Alex Thompson Freeway Ride Ticket/Root Beer Float Donation Box.
That, or you decide whether or not the price of a ticket and a root beer float is worth it to you. What's a fair price for changing minds? It's whatever you're willing and able to pay.
Ah, yes.
Bargs Rootbeer laced with some Breyer's, Vanilla Specks.
Now that's what you call a float!!!
I suffered some massive, brain-freeze when I made this shake concoction of the same material.
Nonetheless, I was chilled for seven, days straight.
Galco's was on Hulle Houser!! That place looked like it would be awesome to go in. I caught the middle of the show and thought it was in the middle of Cali somewhere till they mentioned it was in Highland Park. I said shit, I'm so there now!!!
The Hot Knives guys did a day time beer shop ride, and we stopped there (among other places). I've been going there for a while. Unfortunately they have only day-time hours. But it's a rad place for unique beer, soda & old school candy.
They have the bubble gum thats in the shape of cigarettes, and if you blow through them, they puff a little "smoke".
I swear to God, if you guise go and get root beer floats without doing the freeway ride, those root beer floats will taste like ashes in your mouth. Ashes. In your mouth.
1. He makes legal arguments while he is self admittedly a lawyer. This violates rule#1 of the forum. Do Not Post unless you don't know what you are talking about. FAIL!
2. First post is 1,032 words and not once he mentions "in yer mouf". FAIL!
3. He is obviously posting sober. FAIL!
4. He is nowhere in Alex Thompson's list of TOP 100 core l33t activist leader organizers. FAIL!
the combination of the idea of experiencing this ride coupled with the biological need for rootbeer floats increases my want, but mostly increases the need for a video
philosophical question - is AT a yaysayer? Diamond tuff call. I heard he might have been seen in the vicinity of the ride, but does that mean he was a yaysayer. I heard in this thread he argued that the ride should not be taken down, but is that yaysaying?
If you're really going to note the nay sayers, there was quite a bit more than the three you've listed so far,
Nay sayers - tern, trickmilla, ideasculptor, MikeyWalsh just to name a few.
And these were just the ones with a notable amount of nayering. I've never seen so much poo pooping. Not complaining, just it's amazing what was said was going to happen.
OH MY FUCKING GOD the wiki is now becoming like this gossip commentary site for Midnight Ridazz drama. LOL! its got details on our celebrity lives. hahaha bikeforums and lafixed should be so lucky! I didnt realize that wiki would start to get all gossipy political. now everytime there is a thread about some issue we are sure that alex and a team of critics will be commenting about our comments on the ibikeu site. GREAT.
so after a friendly visit with my Favorite DJ "Chicken Leather",(yes, he did come over and make me and Bigsexxy lunch, and it was YUMMY)
While telling him the tell of the Freeway ride this past Friday
he revealed that he road on the 101 freeway some 20 something years ago. This was out of necessity. He had to get to job by the Hollywood bowl and knew that it would have taken him too long to go by the streets, so he decided to take the freeway on his bike. He said he was in all white, and cars where beeping at him, and no it wasn't rush hour traffic.
The route you all want to to know.
enter the 101 northbound at Argyle/Franklin and exited the freeway at N . Cahuenga Blvd and circled around Odin towards the Hollywood Bowl.
URL for this route is: http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=1823345
Another reason why Chicken Leather is one of my heros, and was a complete bad ass before many of your where born.
It's great isn't it? Spiraldemon came in and left a swath of revengance for being called fluffer. It was harsh indeed, and I doubt the subjects of this retaliation are even aware of it yet. junkboat and boogaloo are foot in moufing everyone. boogaloo already exposed me as hypocrite A #1.
Someday we'll write articles on helmets and pedals and rules of the road, but right now is playtime. Everyone, please eat a handful of sand and run in the halls.
I guess it could be fun from a fanzine sort of highschool prank perspective but I'm not sure with all the banter and gossip that it will have the weight of validity you seemed to want for it when you introduced it.
We shall see. It is a pattern of wikis that they start out as madness and chaos, and end up as madness, chaos, and awesome. Fun does not exclude serious, and serious does not exclude fun, and I'm a big fan of SERIOUS FUN
Already it's the go to reference, unless you've got two hours to read this thread, for the Freeway Ride.
quit flinging unfounded accusations, ironic "sexy".
I neither created, nor edited your page.
you're not unique, special snowflake. I don't hate you exclusively.
I think it will approach credibility "from below", which is to say it will be incredible, and gradually become more credible. Anyhow, that was not Spiraldemon who wrote that:
I just saw the youtube footage of the first freeway ride on the 6pm Channel 4 News tonight (Sunday May 11th). Said something about cyclists protesting against pollution caused by cars and trucks.
I tivo'd it and will try and get it to someone to put up here.
To those who think it is dangerous, I would say without any sense of exaggeration or irony that riding the 405 during rush hour is safer than riding A full blown second friday Midnight Ridazz, and much safer than riding most any of the main arteries in Los Angeles alone.
Paraphrasing someone (maybe WIFE BIKE?) from a couple weeks ago:
"Wolfpack's A team will win the All-City Race. It's what they do. And their B team will probably take second. So the real first, second, and third place winners are those who place third, fourth, and fifth."
Having said that, CONGRATULATIONS, WOLVES. It's more impressive that you were assumed to win than that you won. (I'm assuming you won. I haven't seen/heard/looked for the stats.)
But seriously guys, let's stay on topic. When are we gonna race against cars on the freeway?
-->
Ridazz Roulette!
Crimanimal Mass # 3 : The Freeway Traffic Jam Ride
You might care less, but I don't support the idea.
People stuck in traffic often get angry at just about anything. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if a motorist intentionally harmed a cyclist by opening their door or cutting them off. It's pathetic that people can be like that but you know they can.
Mr. Gardiol,
LAWL!
"Stupid is as stupid does."
Wow.
I tend to agree with Alex and Mikey that this thread should remain in an effort to maintain a healthy discussion regarding the laws and legalities of bike riding...where ever it may occur.
If you don't want to ride on this ride, please show up to Vagina Park on Pico & Cloverfield at 5PM on Friday and you will get a free hat to wear on your ride back to Salem, MA. Don't worry, the hat fits over a bike helmet.
PEEPS IS SHEEPS. BLEET.
The most.
THERE ARE NO RAMPS WITHOUT THESE SIGNS. THEY ARE ON EVERY RAMP IN LOS ANGELES/SANTA MONICA. THIS IS AN ILLEGAL RIDE--BUT ONE FREE OF ILL WILL AND MALICIOUSNESS. IT IS A FUN LOVING ILLEGAL RIDE.
If you wear camouflage, they can't see you.
I agree 100%
ride on.
before Fluffer can get off his knees he has to get off his back first.
and the wisest man always knows who to call...
A Midnight Ridazz ride doesn't encourage people to run reds. Corking just happens because it is the safest thing to do when the lights do turn red as we are crossing through them.
Interesting dialogue! A few comments...
REFRESH! REFRESH!
sioux city sarsaparilla?
For those who choose the path of triumph and honor, those root beer floats will taste like victory.
FOuddhh Rebrevphh frearpph muunphnn. Simslphhlyss Eaurgh phrienn murfphh eseughmoreigh phhonmphh.