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Thread Box:
CM/PD What do you know from LAPD. What do you want to tell them?
Thread started by trickmilla at 06.22.10 - 12:16 pm

LAPD bicycle task force meeting is on Thursday.

We have an opportunity to send questions & comments to LAPD the day before the big date ... i mean ride.

What do you want to tell them and LACM?
What do you want to know about what their planned operation at LACM?


reply


opps i meant;
"What do you want to tell them?"





trickmilla
06.22.10 - 12:17 pm

reply


I wanna ask why an lapd officer yelled "GET OFF THE FUCKING ROAD!!!!!" @ us while we headed down hollywood blvd on saturday...



d-styles
06.22.10 - 12:22 pm

reply


I hope the task force doesn't get consumed with issues of group rides. That is the least of the problems surrounding cyclist's rights / safety in traffic, support of the LAPD in traffic collisions and just plain knowing the law which should be top priority.



Roadblock
06.22.10 - 12:29 pm

reply


very good point; i agree.



md2
responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.22.10 - 12:32 pm

reply


Please present LAPD with these questions at the meeting::

1. Does the LAPD plan to cork at intersections for the ride, or we stop at all red lights?

2. Will the LAPD be on bicycles too?

3. Will the LAPD be escorting or following the ride?

4. Does the LAPD intend to follow the ride to The People's Ride as Critical Mass usually does?

5. Does the LAPD share it's understanding of the cycling community through experiences with other police stations in LA county?

Thanks!



Joe Borfo
06.22.10 - 12:42 pm

reply


That's right cyclist rights are the top priority.

Group rides tend to be lawless and give creedence to police harassment.



Dedicated818
responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.22.10 - 12:48 pm

reply


Fair enough.

But LAPD has a big opperation/ press event planned for Friday.
They want to save face from last month.

So for this meeting in particular it seems like it would be great for the people who plan to ride CM to express themselves to the cops and visa-versa.

Almost everybody wants this to be a good press moment.
It will look good for the bike community and good for LAPD.

Yes this is largely symbolic, but I do think it is a necessary step in relations with the PD, especially since they are setting the agenda.

They want to engage us in a public way, and this will some how reflect the general public sees the bike scene.

Unfortunately, this weeks topic is image. And we don't have much of a choice but help LACM put its best face forward on Friday.



trickmilla
responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.22.10 - 12:49 pm

reply


1. Do they intend to give out tickets?

2. Do they want us to ride single-file, in one lane , or take over the road?

barfo covered the rest.



louisiana
06.22.10 - 1:13 pm

reply


I just want to know if they intend to escort us at LACM or if they are riding with us. If escorting, then are they corking intersections and helping us keep the group together or if riding with us, then they are just participating or are they targeting?

Are they trying to understand LACM or are they trying to police us?



danceralamode
06.22.10 - 1:23 pm

reply


There is always the chance of LAPD using this as a practice run to understand
how the ride works and what method would be best for enforcement of future
ride crackdowns along with identifying ride leaders for arrest.



Dedicated818
responding to a comment by danceralamode
06.22.10 - 1:33 pm

reply






Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by Dedicated818
06.22.10 - 1:53 pm

reply


can you ask them to use rubber bullets? i kid i kid

ask them to use tear gas.

btw whos deleivering these ? and how?



fixie4life
06.22.10 - 3:53 pm

reply


Borfo et al,

I will definitely be seeking answers to these questions. The problem is whether the answers will be on-the-record or off-the-record. If they're off-the-record then I have to respect the relationship and keep them private.

I'll probably come to the ride on Friday, so please wearz teh bunnee sute.



Alex Thompson
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
06.22.10 - 4:02 pm

reply


Or don't wear the bunny suit, because the cops probably know that Joe Borfo wears a bunny suit.



Ms. Stephanie
responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
06.22.10 - 4:05 pm

reply


Off-the-record?????WTF for whom do you serve? Nothing should be OTR. But why am I surprised.....It's only about you and not the community....






Foldie
responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
06.22.10 - 4:11 pm

reply


I think you should ask them why they have a problem with the Civil Obedience approach. If their main concern is promoting safety and obeying traffic laws, then it seems to me that they should applaud and support the approach. However, if their main concern is containment and control - in the coercive sense - then I could see why they would have a problem with it.





Ms. Stephanie
06.22.10 - 4:11 pm

reply


everwhun shud wer knittenz suits!




Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by Ms. Stephanie
06.22.10 - 4:12 pm

reply


@ Foldie, For real. What the fuck, AT? That is complete crap, and is toothless activism at its saddest.



Ms. Stephanie
responding to a comment by Foldie
06.22.10 - 4:13 pm

reply


.



Foldie
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
06.22.10 - 4:13 pm

reply


Foldie, get a grip already...

Alex does not HAVE TO do anything.



md2
responding to a comment by Foldie
06.22.10 - 4:16 pm

reply


Yes he does.....he is BikesideLA



Foldie
responding to a comment by md2
06.22.10 - 4:25 pm

reply


Tell them that bikes are legally allowed to take up an entire lane...they don't seem to know.

And.

2. We may ride through crosswalks.

3. We may ride on sidewalks.



Girl Power
06.22.10 - 4:25 pm

reply


ok... fine... i shouldn't even step into it.

Peace, and see everyone at LACM



md2
responding to a comment by Foldie
06.22.10 - 4:27 pm

reply


It's not toothless whatsoever. It's the judicious use of teeth. Now that LAPD has turned it's attention to LACM, we're in for a long engagement. I was there in Santa Monica when SMPD came down on SMCM, and I fought it, led the fight more often than not, every step of the way. We tried every tactic that's been suggested here re LACM and more.

In my opinion, burning bridges by posting off-the-record material is not diplomatic, and does little except shut down lines of communication. Short term benefit to LACM riders that will be outweighed by the longterm loss. I think most here agree that it's not in the long term interest of LAPD to divert resources to LACM. It alienates cyclists, and it's a disproportionate response. Probably no one at LAPD is going to stand up and make that argument. The Cyclist LAPD Task Force is the best venue for outsiders to build enough trust to make that argument.



Alex Thompson
responding to a comment by Ms. Stephanie
06.22.10 - 4:38 pm

reply


It's odd that the LAPD wants to escort a bike ride due to some people running red lights. That is overkill. If they are there to support us, fine, but if not then maybe they need to 'escort' everyone on Ventura Blvd who runs a red light all during the rush hour traffic "ride". LOL!!!



Girl Power
responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
06.22.10 - 4:42 pm

reply


ventura blvd = sfvcm = fail



_iJunes
responding to a comment by Girl Power
06.22.10 - 4:46 pm

reply


_iJunes, you read her post wrong.

Alex, that's certainly one way of looking at it. I would say that engaging in long-term dialogue with the LAPD is in and of itself toothless, and that fact that dialoguing with the cops is what stops you from sharing with us is what's sad. But I have very different politics from yours.



Ms. Stephanie
responding to a comment by _iJunes
06.22.10 - 4:57 pm

reply


The tactic being espoused here is "civil obedience" I tried to suggest that for SMCM but it seemed to fall on def ears.... SMCM: NEW STRATEGY.... I love that this is being discussed for LACM and I hope people use this tactic moving forward. It will change the face of LACM and relations with the LAPD. a win win!



Roadblock
responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
06.22.10 - 4:58 pm

reply


oh yeah i clearly didn't actually read.



_iJunes
responding to a comment by Ms. Stephanie
06.22.10 - 5:00 pm

reply


Ms. Steph believe me, there is NOTHING that the LAPD will say to Alex that is "off the record" they aren't going to trust any outsiders with any kind of insider info... They aren't dummies. They may trick someone into thinking that what is being discussed is "off the record" but the cops know where they stand. The truly "off the record" convos will never fall on Alex Thompson's ears. No worries.



Wink Martindale
responding to a comment by Ms. Stephanie
06.22.10 - 5:05 pm

reply


Roadblock - We tried that numerous times at SMCM both at the beginning of the ride and impromptu when the police came down on us hard. Just because you didn't know it happened doesn't mean it didn't happen. We fought that crack down for 18 months and yet somehow you're always the expert on what happened - but you weren't there.

Ms. Stephanie - I doubt you really know my politics, but the question is: what's your commitment to yours? Or is this just armchair activism?



Alex Thompson
responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.22.10 - 5:10 pm

reply


no one talked about this strategy on the ride I went to and that was august 08. you are saying it was tried for 18 months after that? so lets hear how it all went down once SMCM tried civil obedience? how did the cops manage to squash it? would be good to learn from experience.



Roadblock
responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
06.22.10 - 5:23 pm

reply


that fact that dialoguing with the cops is what stops you from sharing with us is what's sad.

But without the dialogue, there would be nothing to share, and if the information is shared, there may be no future dialogue, and without any future dialogue, there is nothing in the future to share, and then there is nothing in the future to argue about, thus the forums are reduced to "Did anyone see Toy Story 4 yet?".



md2
responding to a comment by Ms. Stephanie
06.22.10 - 5:28 pm

reply


The crack down began in July of 2007, so by the time you showed up in August 2008, we'd been at it for 13 months. In August 2008 I was at a wedding in MN so I don't know what went down at that ride. However, in general, following all the rules led to a mix of four things:

1) drastically reduced enthusiasm for the ride
2) SMPD would stalk us and look for any violation possible and ticket
3) SMPD would give trumped up violations for not riding to the right or whatever they could figure to ticket us for
4) occasionally we'd have a detail of officers that just didn't care for this particular assignment, and they'd follow us for a while and not really bother us and/or leave



Alex Thompson
responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.22.10 - 5:50 pm

reply


Presenting a fighting attitude is not going to win anyone's favor.

This is not Santa Monica either.

Roadblock is the one who helped us to overcome the stupid ticketing for not having a bike license by posing the question to the city council. It worked. There was no fighting involved.

If LACM cooperatively agrees to engage in Project Civil Obedience, we will be fufilling both what Critical Mass aims to achieve while keeping in good favor with the LAPD.

The LAPD has let us know that they will be present on Friday, and all they want is for us to not break the rules. Let's give them what they want and create a positive spectacle in the process. They may cork some, but not all intersections. They will expect us to stop at all red lights. If we do so the ride will get stretched out and broken up for miles. Fortunately a destination will bring everyone together while acting like real traffic should. This is a great opportunity to show them how this really can be different.

We can show the police that we are adaptable and that the cycling community wants Critical Mass to be a better reflection of who we are - Not as careless thugs, but as responsible civilians who are demonstrating their rights to ride the streets.

We do NOT want CM to be babysat by the cops. We do NOT want to be treated like reckless kids. HOWEVER, there ARE reckless kids on CM. They can only change if they want to. They are only going to want to change if they feel inspired to. Coming up with an idea to make a spectacle is exciting and educational for everyone. The cops don't want us to have a route, but they don't realize that CM rarely ever has a route.
We only will have a destination. CM will be more effective spectacle because we will be encouraging all to follow all road rules. It makes us feel like we have power over how we ride rather focus on what the cops don't want us to do. Most people understand the benefit of the idea. I'm looking forward to your constructive criticisms on it.

I believe that if we can pull this off, the cops will soon leave us alone and have a better understanding of how CM works. Thursday's meeting is a good opportunity to break the ice with the LAPD. We can get our questions answered and help them undertand the nature of Critical Mass is a necessity of every city to promote that WE ARE TRAFFIC to the public at large. That is it. No need for negative spilling of bad blood like you have a tendency of doing in your political arenas. Establishing a positive relationship to show that the cycling community wants to demonstrate change with CM is a better way to handle it.

I may be wrong, but can we at least try a new approach?

On the record or off the record, LAPD will just be doing their jobs around us. We should be doing our jobs and encouraging bikes to ride in traffic and AS TRAFFIC.




Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
06.22.10 - 5:53 pm

reply


Here is a relavent short video of why Portland Critical mass has petered out.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/897079804/aftermass-a-post-critical-mass-portland





Foldie
responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
06.22.10 - 5:55 pm

reply


who made this alex dude the mouth piece of LACM? did I miss some vote? dude do a us a favor and don't do use a favor! LACM isnt about secret meeting and shit. same thing about the stupid questions in the other thread. they want to diolog with CM then get online and do it. not make some sucka that wants to be ur lapdog do it.



fixie4life
06.22.10 - 5:58 pm

reply


Foldie's link is interesting. PDX spent as much as $35k a month to squash CM. We know that SMPD spent as much as $3k at times. Sounds like SMPD got a better bang for their buck.

Borfo - I think it's good to approach it with a positive attitude. Do it!



Alex Thompson
responding to a comment by Foldie
06.22.10 - 6:00 pm

reply


watching it.

Did you know that World Naked Bike Ride PDX counted 13,000 cyclists last week?

http://projects.oregonlive.com/photos/2010/06/20/photos-world-naked-bike-ride-in-portland/

things that make you go hmmmm.



Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by Foldie
06.22.10 - 6:04 pm

reply


thanks.

I hope that the LAPD can watch this video.

Is there a chance to present it on Thursday???



Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
06.22.10 - 6:07 pm

reply


by Rev. Phil Sano. Awesome. I hope to see the whole thing soon.

What is the answer then to this question. Why did PDX critical mass die?

Is this what we are facing?



Joe Borfo
06.22.10 - 6:09 pm

reply


I dunno - but if there's a 13,000 person naked bike ride in PDX, and the MR crew that went up there threw a 300 person ride, then it can't be that bad. PDX masses and doesn't call it mass it seems.



Alex Thompson
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
06.22.10 - 6:16 pm

reply


So is it all in a name? How do you feel about the necessity of CM? Should we focus our energy in other ways? Is CM something that is slowly trying to be snuffed out by authorities because of it's name?



Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
06.22.10 - 6:21 pm

reply


Alex,

Do you think LAPD even has the resources to stop mass rides in LA (given riders don't give up)? just wondering given Los Angeles is a lot larger than PDX or NYC.


Also, that was a cool vid by Foldie, and I actually could watch it at work (thanks foldie).



md2
responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
06.22.10 - 6:21 pm

reply


It outlived it's purpose there. Now people in Portland need an extra incentive, like "get nekkid" to show up and ride en mass.

Like every day in Amsterdam is Critical Mass...

Yes, eventually we will reach "critical mass" in Los Angeles, also.

But for now, show up June 25th and ride.



alicestrong
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
06.22.10 - 6:30 pm

reply


I'm still going to remain optimistic that the LAPD is not looking to shut down LACM. I think it's all about the way we paint the picture for ourselves. lets just ride and see how it goes.



Roadblock
06.22.10 - 6:35 pm

reply


I hope that is the right answer. It makes sense to me.

I agree. I think it's time for good people in our cycling communities come out from hiding and try to give our critical mass a new positive face. I'm hoping that those who come to CM mainly to provoke negativity and do harm can be inspired to change.

CM doesn't have to be boring either.



Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by alicestrong
06.22.10 - 6:35 pm

reply


I <3 you, Borfo!



danceralamode
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
06.22.10 - 8:16 pm

reply


According to this article in the LAIST:

http://laist.com/2010/06/21/cyclists_calling_for_project_civil.php

Sgt. David Krumer is concerned about the riders dividing up into subgroups thereby making it more difficult for the Police to police the ride effectively since they will most likely need to divide their resources in order to maintain "order".



dave
06.22.10 - 9:15 pm

reply


If you read the comments following the LAIST article, perhaps skip the first few and get to the bottom, Sgt Krumer clarifies his statements quoted in the article.



dave
06.22.10 - 10:00 pm

reply


DIVIDE AND CONCOUR



Dedicated818
responding to a comment by dave
06.22.10 - 10:50 pm

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This may correctly belong in a different threa, but this was the first CM thread I found. Someone else forwarded this to me, and although it has a typo, I like the idea behind it so I'm posting it. I think that it should be printed and handed out to the LAPD and the media on Friday. I would happily do it, but I will be in the Bay Area.






Ms. Stephanie
responding to a comment by Dedicated818
06.23.10 - 10:14 am

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(click on the image to read it)



Ms. Stephanie
06.23.10 - 10:15 am

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I think you're awesome... I want to go on this ride instead.



md2
responding to a comment by Ms. Stephanie
06.23.10 - 10:17 am

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Good news Ms. Stephanie
I think they have been lurking on MRDC all month.
So they'll no doubt read it here.
If not we will make sure it comes to their attention at the meeting.



trickmilla
responding to a comment by Ms. Stephanie
06.23.10 - 10:29 am

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"Ms. Stephanie - I doubt you really know my politics, but the question is: what's your commitment to yours? Or is this just armchair activism?"

Completely beside the point of discussion, and an unnecessary and childish barb that distracts from the point of the conversation.

What some of you clearly need to realize is that head to head and aggressive is a valid form of attempting to force change. It's like forcing the field of play to open up to new strategies in a soccer game. Dialoguing interminably is working within certain parameters completely controlled by the status quo, in this instance the LAPD. They already know exactly how much they can and will give. It's like negotiating a lease with a giant 800-pound gorilla landlord, on their lease form - you're still negotiating, and they'll give a little, but they know exactly who you are, and the box they want to keep you in.



Ms. Stephanie
responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
06.23.10 - 10:31 am

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please tell me you're printing copies of that flyer.



tortuga_veloce
responding to a comment by Ms. Stephanie
06.23.10 - 10:42 am

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I see a spoke card with LAPD's message on one side, and this one on the other.

I would think we could get the creator's permission for that limited use if we asked....





dudeonabike
responding to a comment by Ms. Stephanie
06.23.10 - 10:45 am

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I don't know who the creator is, actually.



Ms. Stephanie
responding to a comment by dudeonabike
06.23.10 - 10:50 am

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AT,

I personally believe that your Criminanimals crosswalk protest was a huge disaster. If it did any good, it was only at the expense of pissing off a lot of innocent people. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Critical Mass is here to stay for two reasons: in good times it's a fun gathering, and in bad times it's a forum for protest. Police brutality at Critical Mass cannot last for two reasons: it's a waste of resources and the videos that wind up on the internet are embarrassing.

The revolution will not be televised. It will be streamed on YouTube.



tortuga_veloce
responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
06.23.10 - 10:53 am

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I just tried decreasing the size, and it doesn't seem to be a good fit for a typical spoke card (too much text). Maybe if we just used images, like a bloody baton crossed out or something on one side, with a person riding a bike under a halo on sunny day on the other side.



md2
responding to a comment by dudeonabike
06.23.10 - 10:53 am

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Good point--and I suppose a 8.5x11 "spoke flyer" would be a bit to big/floppy to put into people's wheels.



dudeonabike
responding to a comment by md2
06.23.10 - 11:06 am

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I say we get the polo kids to LACM and just make wheel covers with imprint on each side.

I may print some fliers at work, this is where I do all my MR forum dirty work anyway.





md2
responding to a comment by dudeonabike
06.23.10 - 11:18 am

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I know you guys are skeptical. I totally understand.

Let's try to be positive and show a good face at CM in numbers.

Let's follow the idea of Project Civil Obedience and show that the cops have nothing to give us grief over. Critical Mass is important to keep alive. Let's improve it ourselves rather than eventually being forced to end it by authorities.

I know that It takes a lot of effort to stay positive. But, If we can do this, then they will all be eating their words.

http://la.streetsblog.org/2010/06/23/what-to-expect-at-fridays-critical-mass/



Joe Borfo
06.23.10 - 11:27 am

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I would just say that the bike scene as a whole has more at stake than CM.

CM is a mental virus and it will survive as long as there are bikes and roads.

But the social bike scene in L.A. can be the subject of an ugly crackdown.
If the general public sees all bike rides as a menace the LAPD will be given a long leash in terms of how harsh they can be.

PPL complain a lot of about LAPD but if you like at a doc like Still We Ride things could be a lot worse. (not that LAPD shouldn't be held accountable 100%) We have a chance to turn things around and keep our movement growing. Lets take this rare opportunity to make things better for LA and try and avoid the problems NYC had.






trickmilla
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
06.23.10 - 11:40 am

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From borfos link...

LAPD is bringing their Video Squad, LACM better bring in all their cinematographers.

this is going to be interesting. I really don't trust police, but again, they are focusing on the wrong people. Cyclist are a problem? Come on... but if they want to ride with us, well, then...lets do it....

TO FARGO WE RIDE!!



md2
responding to a comment by trickmilla
06.23.10 - 11:57 am

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Hi Joe,

We will discuss all of these items and let you know what to expect.

and I did see the video you indicated.



Sgt. David Krumer
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
06.23.10 - 12:04 pm

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I'm not hearing much dissent on these and the related forums (er, fora) any more--it seems that a lot of folks are on board and at least willing to give the new landscape a try. (And if there is dissent/criticism, I'm not trying to squelch that--raise any issues you see fit.) Thanks to Borfo for tirelessly spreading the word.

The issue I now see is spreading the word to those many riders that don't have the 411 and those not on this website (or the related websites that have carried LACM-related content like Streetsblog, LAist, Twitter, Facebook, etc.).

Many people just show up and ride. It mattered not that many of those on the last ride weren't aware of us heading to the BP/Arco station, but it was a bit disconcerting how people said "What's BP?" Reaching them will be key--and I'm referring to those that want to ride responsibly (and I'll continue to believe that that group far outnumbers any other group that may just want to show up and act rebellious for the sake of itself).

So talk it up--at the ride, before it gets rolling, and while riding.

Roadblock offered to get up and throw out some information via megaphone at the start of the ride. That's a good idea, too, if he's still interested. We probably don't want it to turn into an open mic/soapbox sort of thing (a la what is recounted in "We Are Traffic" in SF), but a short message welcoming the LAPD and tips of the new feel of this ride for the yet-to-be-informed would be good, too.



dudeonabike
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
06.23.10 - 12:05 pm

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We do not expect riders to ride single file...the vehicle code does not require it and we are educating our officers on this fact.

Our purpose is not traffic enforcement however certain violation MAY be enforced.



Sgt. David Krumer
responding to a comment by louisiana
06.23.10 - 12:07 pm

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Hi Stephanie,

We embrace and support the approach of Project Civil Obedience.



Sgt. David Krumer
responding to a comment by Ms. Stephanie
06.23.10 - 12:08 pm

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Sgt. David Krumer,

Another quick question:

So, who shot Biggie Smalls a.k.a. the Nortorious B.I.G. ?

(don't worry, this is all off the record)





md2
responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.23.10 - 12:15 pm

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That's helpful, Sgt. Krumer. Thanks.

Perhaps you could throw out some information on red lights. There's a bit of confusion there. I plan on stopping at red lights--I don't want a citation.




dudeonabike
responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.23.10 - 12:16 pm

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According to what I read above...nothing is off the record...so for now the mystery will have to live on.



Sgt. David Krumer
responding to a comment by md2
06.23.10 - 12:18 pm

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So, can you speak to whether or not the LAPD will cork intersections or allow us to cork intersections (and therefore run red lights) to keep the large group together?



danceralamode
responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.23.10 - 1:36 pm

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Hello Sgt. David Krumer,

can you tell me your work email address? I would like to send a number 1-100 to you. if you tell me the number then Im satisfied this is really you. if not then everyone can judge for themselfs.

btw I can share these number with one other person so they know its legit.

fixie4life@gmail.com



fixie4life
responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.23.10 - 1:42 pm

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I can personally vouch that this person is Sgt. Krumer.





Roadblock
responding to a comment by fixie4life
06.23.10 - 1:50 pm

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After tomorrow's meeting I will know the details regarding corking and lights. Since Barfo, Alex, Roadblock, and some others will be there you can be sure that by 6 or 7 pm our plans will be public knowledge as we are not trying to hide or otherwise misrepresent our intentions or motivations.



Sgt. David Krumer
responding to a comment by danceralamode
06.23.10 - 1:58 pm

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haha... "Barfo"



md2
responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.23.10 - 2:07 pm

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This is an opportunity to create a healthier relationship between LAPD and the cycling community. Representatives from both parties will be approaching each other with respect and understanding. Please continue to post your questions so that it can be presented to the police at Thursday's meeting.

Let's all get on board with spreading the news about demonstrating a positive face for LACM.


Sincerely,
Barfo :P






Joe Borfo
06.23.10 - 2:12 pm

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Roadblock,

I think you need to upgrade the MR security system, because someone hacked into my account at 11:57am. I just can't believe someone would suggest "I" don't trust the police. Clearly, I love the police with all my heart. I call them for everything:

For example:
1. when my water heater broke
2. When I lost my u-lock key to my Colnago
3. the night Dick Cheney was hiding on my balcony eating Funions
4. when my ex-girlfriend came home with another dude, even though he was a police officer, well it was weird... forget it... the point being... I love cops, not as much as my ex... but...

Well, anyhow, I just wanted to clear things up.



md2
responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.23.10 - 2:13 pm

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my big question... actually hope, is that the LAPD will RIDE BICYCLES and not motorcycles and cruisers both of which cause trouble with flow...





Roadblock
responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.23.10 - 2:20 pm

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....and the fact that motorized vehicles really don't fit with the overall theme of Critical Mass.

(And it kinda stinks to ride behind them breathing in tailpipe emissions.)



dudeonabike
responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.23.10 - 2:25 pm

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find out if they are going to ticket for no brakes. ask them to define what a brake is on a bike.



fixie4life
responding to a comment by dudeonabike
06.23.10 - 2:28 pm

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I'd like to tell the LAPD to have a good time at CM.

They deserve it after having to babysit the Lakers fans...:))



alicestrong
06.23.10 - 2:34 pm

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"We embrace and support the approach of Project Civil Obedience."

...Including the concept of choosing, as a group, the next stop, so that when riders stop at red lights and are broken into smaller groups, each small group knows where to go and can elect its own path there...while obeying all traffic laws, of course?

Because in a very level-headed, reasonable debate some of us had, some felt that this approach would potentially achieve the riders' goals and the police's goals better than the current structure of critical mass.



Ms. Stephanie
responding to a comment by fixie4life
06.23.10 - 2:39 pm

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Exactly, I imagine even if things go differently than we hope, such as some dumb riders, the LAPD will clearly be able to identify that the majority were cool. If that is ignored, then oh well, but it's hard to imagine any office on a bike not having fun and understanding what mass rides are about. It takes a really skewed person to not have fun on mass rides.

LAPD bicycle cops > LAPD in cars or motorcycles





md2
responding to a comment by alicestrong
06.23.10 - 2:43 pm

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Is this meeting open for others to attend?



danceralamode
responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.23.10 - 2:46 pm

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just like our leader Barfo said we ride where the fuck we want!



fixie4life
06.23.10 - 2:46 pm

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For a brake, my understanding is that if you can skid your wheel, it's a brake. It doesn't have to be a caliper type brake. For a BMX or cruiser bike the mechanism is in the rear hub; for a fixed gear bicycle, the drivetrain of the bike is a brake. This is how the law reads:

CVC 21201. (a) No person shall operate a bicycle on a roadway unless it is equipped with a brake which will enable the operator to make one braked wheel skid on dry, level, clean pavement.

Can Sgt. Krumer confirm this?



Jeremy
responding to a comment by fixie4life
06.23.10 - 2:50 pm

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To the riders going to the task force meeting, don't focus to long on shiny golden medallion being swung back and fourth in front of you!



buckchin
06.23.10 - 3:32 pm

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We do not expect riders to ride single file...the vehicle code does not require it and we are educating our officers on this fact.

keep up the good work!



tortuga_veloce
responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.23.10 - 3:58 pm

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The braking requirement does not require a disc or V brake like you see on most mountain or road bikes. If you can bring the bicycle to a stop by rotating the pedals counter-clockwise you are good to go. Keep in mind that the VC states that the bike needs to be "equipped" which means that it is to some degree affixed and permenant. Sticking a sneaker into the back tire does not equate to "equipped." Hope this helps.





Sgt. David Krumer
responding to a comment by Jeremy
06.23.10 - 4:51 pm

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This is really really great... unless we're being fooled, I for one appreciate what you're doing by posting (despite my so called jokes).

I think the outreach is great, we really need the LAPD's support for the bigger issues surrounding cycling in Los Angeles.

I really hope this LAPD / CM turns out positive one way or another.



md2
responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.23.10 - 5:14 pm

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Sgt Krumer,

Your participation in this forum is a nice act of good faith and shows some real action on the part of the LAPD to deal with cycling issues in Los Angeles. I applaud you.

I look forward to seeing you at the meeting on Thursday and I hope we can work together on Friday to make sure that both the riding public AND THE POLICE don't commit any crimes on the ride.



stillline
06.23.10 - 5:52 pm

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where and when is this meeting? do they check for warrants?



fixie4life
06.23.10 - 5:57 pm

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We are not checking warrants but the meeting is not open. It is a regular meeting of our working group where a broad spectrum of cycling advocates hopefully represent many points of view. If the meeting we open we would not get much done. I can promise you though that the concerns expressed on this forum as well as LA streetsblog, LAist, BikingInLA and BikesideLA will be addressed.



Sgt. David Krumer
responding to a comment by fixie4life
06.23.10 - 6:29 pm

reply


I would like to reiterate again how great it is to be able to communicate with an officer here. Thank you for being so available and dedicated to making the city safer for those of us on bikes!



danceralamode
responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.23.10 - 6:42 pm

reply











Father Crime
responding to a comment by danceralamode
06.23.10 - 7:01 pm

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trickmilla
responding to a comment by danceralamode
06.23.10 - 7:13 pm

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sounds like a waste of time. scorpion and turtle joke or something..





asparagus
06.23.10 - 7:17 pm

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Shhhh! You'll ruin my scheming.



danceralamode
responding to a comment by trickmilla
06.23.10 - 7:29 pm

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remember to breathe. be careful not to hyperventilate or choke if something gets lodged in your wind pipe. god forbid you throw out your neck and cant ride a bike.



Father Crime
responding to a comment by danceralamode
06.23.10 - 7:30 pm

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so it this meeting going to be recorded? isnt LACM all about being open with nothing to hide? I hope we can have that for the people. so I guess thats my question. oh and who are the people that can be at that meeting.



fixie4life
06.24.10 - 12:25 am

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be patient. Patrick will post the details after.



Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by fixie4life
06.24.10 - 12:31 am

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These has been ongoing meetings with the LAPD and a diverse segment of the bike advocacy community. Critical Mass will be a topic this week but it is not the primary focus of the group. Several people wth blogs and bike information outlets will be on hand. I expect most of them will report to the bike community.



trickmilla
responding to a comment by fixie4life
06.24.10 - 12:41 am

reply


To those wondering who will be present to represent the cycling community I can provide a brief list of our core partners:

Los Angeles County Bicycle Coalition
Bike Writer's Collective/ SoapBoxLA/ IlluminateLA
BikesideLA
BikinginLA
Sustainable Streets
Eastside Bicycle Club
Los Angeles City Bicycle Advisory Committee

At the next meeting we will also have some additional guests:

Project Civil Obedience

In addition, the Department has a good relationship with LAist and Streetsblog so you can rest assured that the details of the meeting will get out to everyone.





Sgt. David Krumer
06.24.10 - 5:48 am

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Wow. Gonna let you have that one since I walked right into it. But, wow.



danceralamode
responding to a comment by Father Crime
06.24.10 - 9:25 am

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I know that when Riders911 (a midlife crisis motorcycle group) were headed west last summer, they had a complete escort for their 500 or so people. The police cut off intersections and allowed the group to stay together. I feel as if we deserve the same right.

kind of off the subject, i think it would look cool if a crew could ride two rows to a lane like the old school bike gangs used to.

Good luck with the meeting today. I hope all sides get the opportunity to voice their opinions with dignity, pride, and resilience.



Sneek
06.24.10 - 10:51 am

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I'm going to print this entire thread style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow">(and highlight the good parts) so there is a written record.
(sorry trees)
I'll print whatever is on the record by 2pm and take these comments and questions physically to LAPD.
--------------------------------------------------------------



trickmilla
06.24.10 - 12:03 pm

reply



I'm going to print this entire thread
(and highlight the good parts) so there is a written record.
(sorry trees)
I'll print whatever is on the record by 2pm and take these comments and questions physically to LAPD.



trickmilla
06.24.10 - 12:03 pm

reply


wow ...



trickmilla
06.24.10 - 12:04 pm

reply


just recycle



Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by trickmilla
06.24.10 - 12:07 pm

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MEETING RECAP:



Actually I'm about to grab some food, but I'm sure trickmilla is going to post a elaborate account of our experience at the LAPD meeting with many representatives of the cycling community.

My 3 second recap is -

The cops are trying really hard to make nice with us. This will be prevalent tomorrow. Also, they are not going to remain forever at Critical Mass. They are asking us to demonstrate riding safely and they are going to be riding with us. This is an opportunity for them to show to the public that they are making an effort to be more aware of the needs of the cycling community while they are going to be encouraging us to ride safely and by the law.

The meeting wasn't just about Critical Mass - Items on the agenda went from responding to bicycle thefts, to Sharrow, to the Bicycle Plan and many other issues that the LAPD can help to serve our community better.

Tomorrow should be interesting. I'm actually pretty excited to see LAPD open to getting a Critical Mass education and at the same time we can practice implementing Project Civil Obedience.

It was a pleasure meeting Ross. If I may use his term, tomorrow will be a Critical Opportunity for us to turn a new leaf in improving relations with the LAPD and demonstrating our rights to ride as traffic and as law abiding cyclists. The LAPD said, "We know that you are traffic." I think were making big steps.

More details after I eat...





Joe Borfo
06.24.10 - 7:56 pm

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What was that term? something like herding cats?



dave
06.24.10 - 8:22 pm

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playlist, check
boombox, check
mp3 player, check
99 cent batteries, check (fingers crossed, check)

Im ready and I'm kind of getting too old for this too, check



md2
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
06.24.10 - 9:07 pm

reply


I don't know what else to add to that.

Pretty much that we make sure that we stay on the right lane and stop at all red lights unless they cork. This is all they really are pushing for us to follow. They do not want us to do a circle of douche. Big Bike Dan LEADS THE RIDE!!!



Joe Borfo
06.24.10 - 11:30 pm

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I recorded the entire meeting on MD but doing an analog transfer will take some time.
So here are my best answers to some of the Ridazz' questions from my memory and my notes. For those who were at the meeting feel free to add, emphasize or correct anything i may have missed.

Does LAPD plan to cork? They will not, cork all intersections for us like a parade. However, they may choose to "road guard" an intersection on a case by case basis. if it seems like the safer more efficient way to shuttle traffic.

Will LAPD be on bikes? Yes. There will be motorcycles and cruisers near by as well.

Will they be escorting or following the ride? both.

Will they ticket? They are not there to crack down on every possible violation.
They are more concerned with safety.
They will ticket for: blatant recklessness and other blatant law violations. (be more ninja foo). They may ticket minors without helmets. They may ticket single-speed freewheels without a brake (if you have to shoe stop they might talk to you).

If you are riding safely, you are likely not to get a ticket.
If you are 100% legal in every way, and you ride safely you are very likely not to get a ticket.

Are they trying to understand LACM or are they trying to police us? A little of both . I think they want their presence to discourage some of the historically negative aspects of LACM both on the part of riders and drivers. I think that they DO want to understand how the ride works. I think LACM confuses and frustrates them, because they would much prefer to have a "leader" "an organization" "a route" . Something concrete for them to deal with.

LAPD seem to be acting on good faith in terms of this Critical Mass ride.
They seem to want to make a good impression after last months debacle.

Their feelings on Project Civil Obedience They welcome the idea of cyclists following the cvc. They expressed that it would make it easier for them if we stuck together and gave them a specific route. But they acknowledged that this is our ride and we can plan it how we choose. In the meeting it became clear to them that the ride, destinations, and routes will be impromptu. They are prepared to deal with that.

This is an experiment & and olive branch for them. They would rather be seen playing nice with us and setting a good example with drivers. Then to be seen in polarizing clashes with us.

I sensed a lot of good will in the room. On both sides of the table, everybody seemed to want to see this happen. The LAPD acknowledged that is an experiment. But one that they are attempting in good faith.

Words are just words. So on Saturday morning it will be actions, that the cyclists and police will use as a metric for how well this experiment worked.

ride on.








trickmilla
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
06.25.10 - 1:02 am

reply


Showing RESPECT from both sides (LAPD and the LACM riders) is what will determine success tonight and in the future.



Joe Borfo
06.25.10 - 8:40 am

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Cliff's Notes at bottom. I know I talk too much.

I really wish I could be there Friday but I will be out of town.

My concern is this: there seem to be maybe ten to fifteen people participating in this thread. I suspect there are a few more lurking w/o posting (like I've been doing). All told, there are probably maybe a few dozen cyclists who will hear about this dialogue you guys have been having with the police. So you'll have a few dozen cyclists trying to embody PCO on the ride, but how are you going to get the word out to the hundreds and hundreds of other cyclists that show up? It's an early summer CM, it might be slightly big. I fully support what you guys are talking about, but do you have a plan together for regrouping 500, 600, 700+ riders after they are split up multiple times at lights? A plan to convince all of those riders to change their group ride habits all at once, and be willing to sacrifice the cohesiveness of the ride to put on a good show for the police? A plan to ensure that riders who haven't been involved in this dialogue will know to stop at reds, and to stay right, so the police don't panic and feel they have to intervene when they perceive "the ride" (as an entity) getting out of control? etc etc

Granted, it is required to do these things in order to follow the law, but given the earlier questions regarding whether or not this thing should continue to be called Critical Mass... if you start following laws and you give up on keeping the ride together through lights, you have already sacrificed Critical Mass the way I see it. It won't have a route, okay... it will still be bikes, highly visible to the public, okay... it will still be an awesome ride, well maybe. But whatever it is, it won't be Critical Mass anymore.

Maybe that is what needs to happen.

I'm being a bit pessimistic and extreme here, but the reality is that we have been spoiled by a culture we've built for ourselves that lets us feel like cars have to follow the CVC with respect to bikes, but bikes don't have to follow the CVC as long as they're on a group ride. (Flamesuit: I know this is not the case universally, and it is just starting to change, but this in-your-face aggressive bike-centric culture has dominated the attitude of every large group ride I've been on since following the community in '08, so that's what I'm going on.) We have to let this selfish culture go if we want the authorities and the driving public to respect us.

Cliff's
If we want the authorities and public to respect us, we have to be willing to sacrifice some of what makes the Ridazz culture so exciting and so much fun. We have to actually follow laws. I don't want to turn down the fun, but I do want the authorities to respect and work with us on this, so I accept that we may have to turn down the fun, at least a bit. But we have to somehow get the word / spirit out to all the people who are not following this thread.



outerspace
06.25.10 - 9:05 am

reply


Critical Mass has been around for over 17 years now. It has made tremendous changes in the world for bicycles. Different cities have implemented CM in different ways. CM is open to cooperative change and implementation

I am highly optimistic about this ride tonight. If there are issues, let us learn how to continue changing it for the better.

Please come with an open mind and a willing to demonstrate what it means to follow the cvc in a huge group. This is not impossible.

We will announce a destination. The cops will help us if we get separated or need directions. They will also be coaching those who do not know certain CVC rules. They admit that they are not going to be cracking down, but to show the public that they are supportive and making sure e can keep it safe. Let's show them it can be done. We all have an effect on the cycling community. Use your power and talk about this to people coming to LACM. It's going to be great.

I can't wait for 1000 bikes to deliver some donuts to the po po.



Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by outerspace
06.25.10 - 9:20 am

reply


We have to let this selfish culture go if we want the authorities and the driving public to respect us.

Weird, because from the way things are looking so far, the authorities are showing some respect, and considering most riders come from the driving public, I'm guessing it's not an issue about selfishness -- but more proselytizing.



md2
responding to a comment by outerspace
06.25.10 - 10:11 am

reply


I'm actually looking forward to riding tonight representing the Department, but more importantly, representing myself as a cyclist. @ Joe, if Critical Mass is an ever changing evolution, which I believe it to be since 1992, then so are Officer's. In other words we prefer Bagles, not donuts...See you tonight...



lacycle24
06.25.10 - 11:00 am

reply


I cant wait, im looking forward to riding tonight! BMX mode tonight!



madmelo
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
06.25.10 - 11:07 am

reply


Trickmilla's and Borfo's posts above are good summaries from LAPD's . Required reading.

Let me only add this to give you some more info on what do do about:

RED LIGHTS:

LAPD doesn't like the word "corking" at all, but LAPD might find it beneficial to "road guard" certain intersections up toward the front of the ride. That means, if it appears safe and if LAPD is telling you it's alright to run the red, then you should feel free to do so. LAPD's words, not mine.

As to groups splitting off and taking alternative routes to whatever the destination may be, well, that' an organic thing that might happen--or not. It'll be up to riders, the group, the mass(es). It's not a bad thing, at all, but from LAPD's "assisting/encouraging the ride" standpoint, you could see how they feel it might make their job a bit more difficult to manage multiple traffic situations spread out over multiple locations. They've said they will try to work with whatever direction(s) the ride takes. This is your/our ride, do what feels right.



dudeonabike
06.25.10 - 11:09 am

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"Granted, it is required to do these things in order to follow the law, but given the earlier questions regarding whether or not this thing should continue to be called Critical Mass... if you start following laws and you give up on keeping the ride together through lights, you have already sacrificed Critical Mass the way I see it. It won't have a route, okay... it will still be bikes, highly visible to the public, okay... it will still be an awesome ride, well maybe. But whatever it is, it won't be Critical Mass anymore."

I disagree. Look at the foundational writing & philosophy of critical mass.
It really comes down: A TIME AND A PLACE TO MEET AND RIDE BIKES.
There no established leader and no hierarchy, and no pre-determined methodology.
Thats about it.
Its this ability for CM to adapt and change to different circumstances, different cultures, different governments that has allowed CM to flourish in hundreds of countries in thousands of cities around the world for almost 20 years.

If a police department decides to ride on CM & encourage us or even dictate to us the following the rules of the road, it does not stop CM from being CM.

I think that there is a lot of confusion about what CM is at its soul. And what we perceive LACM to be like based on stories and our experiences.

CM as a cultural virus is very robust. Within it's founding principals there is lots of room for interpretation and experimentation.

A group of people here on MRDC are advocating for a way to do LACM tonight. It is an experiment and it is designed and intended to make the safest, funnest, most positive interaction with the community and the police. "Project Civil Obedience" is just an experiment that is being suggested as a response of how to deal with a determined police presence.

However,
PCO does not preclude anybody from doing whatever type of critical mass they want.
Everybody is free to ride however and wherever they want. We are all personally responsibly for our own actions, our own safety and our own consequences for our actions.

Those of us advocating for PCO are just saying THIS is how we are going to ride. You ware welcome to join us or not.

However, we are inviting everybody to try this. We believe that this will be a net benifit to the bike community. Cycling in LA has grown in large part due to the social cycling scene. It is up to us to keep that scene healthy. And what better place to do that, than a community ride that is owned by nobody and belongs to everybody.

There are probably as many types of critical mass experiences as there are people who have ridden critical mass. We are just offering 1 possibility.

ride on.









trickmilla
responding to a comment by outerspace
06.25.10 - 11:32 am

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+ π





Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by trickmilla
06.25.10 - 11:59 am

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