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Thread started by trickmilla at 11.14.10 - 11:49 am
Sgt. Krumer,
This has nothing to do with you personally.
I appreciate your efforts here (as so well documented by indigis) especially the assistance you offer to crime victims here.
However, you may have noticed a tonal shift around here in regards to LAPD presence at LACM.
This summer, many of us gave LAPD the benefit of the doubt, when it was clear that LAPD was intent on having a presence at critical mass.
At first that seemed like a good tact, as LAPD on that first ride were by and large seen as being very polite, open, helpful, etc.
Very few complaints from anybody on the attitude & performance of LAPD.
In September, LAPD made a decision to start enforcing specific egregious violations (ie. 2x yellow line and corking).
Since then LAPD has turned its efforts to heavily ticketing the ride and less than 10% of the violations cited are in the category of the egregious violations that LAPD expressed so much concern about.
If there was ever a interest at LAPD in reaching out to the people of critical mass, that outreach has failed.
Most of us who were optimistic about LADPs outreach efforts, or were ambivalent about LAPD being present , are now of the strong opinion that LAPD has handled this whole thing incompetently, and in failure, has turned to the old tactic of harassment and collective punishment, as a way of suppressing culture and free speech that the department knows no other way to deal with.
Since then LAPD has chosen to have a presence at critical mass.
Critical Mass has been happening on a monthly basis for over 10 years in LA with relatively few problems.
Now, since LAPD is embarrassed by its performance on one particular month, there has been this botched public relations campaign which has just reenforced many of our perceptions that the default position of LAPD as a group is REPRESSION.
Everyday as cyclists we see lots and lots dangerous violations by drivers that get largely ignored.
We get bullied illegally on the streets by drivers and it is largely ignored or tolerated by LAPD, then when we get in a group to ride safely LAPD hands out $450 tickets to kids for running yellow lights.
Your colleagues are re-enforcing the notion that many cops are more interested in suppressing culture they don't like, over enforcing the law in an even handed way for the safety of all citizens.
What are three things each person proposes that will make it not so bad?
2 cents
1) self censure--adios to people under 18 breaking the law--go home--you're a liability to us all
2) keep the difficult large spectacle rides limited in number/special - maybe once a month rather than every week
3) police encounter protocol - maybe try to prepare for and practice for this with a friend in a conflict-resolution fashion--should a real-encounter occur, citizen and peace officer will be less likely to freak out and most situations can be de-escalated versus what could happen should someone be pulled over or whatnot; in most situations, for the citizen, non-compliance, lack of gov't-issued ID, being verbal, and especially getting physical make things much worse -- even if you're scared or have had negative interactions in the past there are ways to work towards remaining relatively calm, cool and together
I stopped going to rides when 1) and 3) began to be a regular issue.
50-100 kids on bikes blowing a red light and the cops snag one of them and write them a ticket. so fucking what? its called making an example of someone.
you want the same rights as a motorist? then act like one.
the last time i checked, it's not legal for a car to blow a red light, nor is it legal to drive after drinking a 40oz.
no wonder there are cops on rides now. you guys make it too fucking easy.
If you don't want the police to ride with you, don't show up to the ride. Or go back to the roots of CM and protest the Police. Show up at the meet spot but don't ride and bring signs that state your position.
This REpost of the same issue will not be solved by talking with Sgt Krumer. They have an agenda and CM has a conflicting agenda.
This is not a "repost".
While this discussion is not old, I am reaching out to Sgt. Krumer about a particular aspect of the LACM saga: the topic of increased police scrutiny and harassment of LACM in the last 2 months.
Like some rides, many of the threads here get hijacked by "CriticalAsses", people who do not attend the ride, have little to contribute by way of real actions, and who rarely if ever offer any anything positive or insightful.
The fact is that the relationship with the police, on critical mass has devolved into police harassment in an effort to shrink a ride, that THEY artificially grew to an unsustainable size.
Whatever some individuals may have done on past bike rides is distinct from how individuals should be treated for their own actions in the present moment.
We currently have a lot of credible reports stacking up from the past 2 months of increased instances of officers issuing unfair tickets. This is something that will cause innocent victims to either surrender as much as a weeks wages, or several hours of their time to defend their innocence.
And while I am sure that some tickets have been issued fairly, they come out of an action of increased scrutiny that would yield tickets of any population on the road.
Imagine a proportional force of police was sent to a dodger game.
What if they looked in every car that was in line. If they searched every person in the parking lot. If they rode all through the parking lot checking for people sneaking a drink or a puff; checked cars for current tags and working lights. They would yield scores of tickets. But people would not put up with that bullshit. Neither would the Dodgers.
This biggest crimes on critical mass this year gave been committed by the police: assault, attacking the witness of a crime, and the violation of civil rights, accompanied no doubt by false police reports.
LAPD is singling us out for harassment, in what is slowly starting to look like pay back for all their embarrassment.
They act like there is a huge public safety issue that warrants this attention.
But critical mass has gone 10+ years without many issues. And they themselves have created more of a public safety issue than LACM has ever done on its own.
That treatment is unfair, and I think that after all of the work the bicycle community has done to work with the police for safer streets, the LAPD owes us some answers.
I hear what everyone is saying in that the LAPD is creating confussion and is not clearly communicating what the expectations are...and subsequently citing persons for violations. Please let me claify the LAPD's position/expectations:
If the LACM is an event and wants the LAPD to cork you must provide a route.
If the LACM wants to ride as traffic...without a route...the rules of the road must be followed and you are subject to a citation if you go through a red.
The LAPD will gladly facilitate either experaince. We will instruct our officers to refrain form corking unless there is a route so that there is no confussion created in the future and no mixed messages.
The LAPD is attempting to be as flexible as possible and give you the riding experiance you want (within reason). The problem is that some riders on the LACM are being unreasonable in their expectation that they be allowed to ride without any rules. Perhaps that is an idealogical difference but it is simply not a workable model.
I accept that our implementation may be flawed...but not our expectations that LACM work in partnership with the LAPD. Partnership implies that each be willing to adjust somewhat to the other. If the LAPD is doing all of the give and LACM is doing all of the take where is the partnership?
The LAPD has no desire to suppress your free speech right or to otherwise interfere with your right to assemble and ride. As an organisation the LAPD supports your constitutional rights and your rights as rightful uses of the roadway.
The Department shares your concerns in how the enforcement is taking place...i.e. officers being rude, using excessive force, etc. We are on the same page with that and I have already generated several complaints based on reports I am reading here.
Are we on the same page as to enforcement in general. Assuming that there are no contributing factors where officers are creating confusion, should the LAPD (in your opinion) be writing riders up for thier violatons?
I guess I would say that a great percentage of drivers commit violations on a regular basis and are ignored by the police. So it seems that we are being treated with a double standard.
If I stand on the overpass of the 101 i will see a diver breaking the speed limit about every 5 or 10 seconds (traffic permitting). There are enough speeder on the 101 to keep LAPD, LASD, and CHP occupied for every minute of every day. Yet this constant law breaking is ignored, because it is generally understood that people can safely operate a vehicle a speed that is higher than the posted speed limit.
We have made a collective decision as a society to selectively obey and enforce some rules more than others.
There are many many more people on friday night drinking, driving drunk, doing drugs, fighting and acting stupid on hollywood blvd.
Yet a disproportionate amount of resources are being directed at us.
What I am saying is that enforcement is ALWAYS selective and the attention critical mass receives is disproportionate to our numbers and our activity. And this is clearly due to the fact that officers were caught attacking critical mass members and suppressing the documentation of their crimes.
-----
That is a separate issue from the fact that LAPD has apparently had a shifting and unpredictable policy for each ride, which has generated a lot of confusion, especially for the 80+% of CM attendees who do not use MRDC as a primary source of information.
On the last LACM I saw, at several intersections, police hiding in the shadows waiting to cherry pick rider and give them tickets.
This is very different from how LAPD presence was originally advertised as a open presence that would influence officers, drivers and cyclists to stay on the right side of the law.
Now we have officers lurking in the shadows waiting to give out chicken-shit tickets.
We know there is greater more serious crimes (as well as greater traffic issues) happening elsewhere in the city. So the question is, if not for outreach, politics, or public relations, why is LAPD unfairly placing disproportionate scrutiny on us, when there are more serious issues in other parts of the city.
It has become clear to everybody that LAPD is causing more problems then they are solving on LACM. I think its time for LAPD to draw down its forces. Watch this ride for a distance, and see what happens. You will see the ride mellow, the numbers will eb naturally, and LACM can go on doing what it does.
trickmilla responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
11.15.10 - 1:05 pm
Your point is well taken...some things are enforced more than others...speed being one of them. You are correct that we can cite people all day long for speeding on the freeway (but don't). Some things are almost always enforced if observed. The red lights and stop signs are the big ones. Other violations such as unsafe passing and lane changes to a lesser extent.
With regards to the disproportionate resources directed at LACM. Crime suppression is one police function. There are relatively few crimes that have been committed by riders (especially of late) and if deployment decisions were based on the crime that an activity causes than you would be absolutely correct in pointing out that we are overdeployed. In addition to crime suppression though we also are expected to maintain order. This is why we deploy to special events and protests. Its not based on crime but on crowd management. What many riders fail to realize id that a lot of folks (right or wrong) are frieghtened when a large group of cyclists take over a street in what is percived to be anarchy.
Each LACM we try different things in an effort to see what works and what does not. With regards to those officers in the shadows. I do not anticipate that on the next LACM there will be covert enforcement.
I indicated in a previous post that LAPD is involved in LACM not so much for crime suppression but for crowd management. If you feel this is an inappropriate use of resources please take your argument to City Coucil where you can make your case and allow others to respond.
The City Council may well look into the costs of policing LACM and determine that it is too high. It gives the larger community a chance to be heard as well. Some will come out in favor of cyclists and LACM...some will come out and say how they feel threatened by cyclists in LACM. In the end the City Council may intervene...but I have to be honest and tell you that if the folks in CC take a look at our compiled youtube videos, photos, calls for service, and complaints, intervention may not necessarily be something that you want.
The LAPD is doing its best to serve the cycling community as well as the larger community and balancing the interests of each. If you believe the greater Los Angeles community supports LACM and wants less officers assigned I most certainly welcome the discussion in City Council.
What many riders fail to realize id that a lot of folks (right or wrong) are frieghtened when a large group of cyclists take over a street in what is percived to be anarchy.
Perceived by whom?
If I start making hysterical calls to LAPD every time I see the "anarchy" of rush hour automotive traffic on Glendale or Sunset Boulevards, will you blindly go bother them instead?
Please?
PC responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
11.15.10 - 2:23 pm
these rides are a fucking embarrassment to the rest of the cycling community.
I'm sure your disgust reaches a more diverse group than your photo selection represents, right?
Do you really think the cops came to the photo gallery and said "oh my god, there is drinking going on, we have to do something sergeant before these kids head down the wrong path".
I dont speak for the "rest of the cycling community", but I think they might be more on our side than you think.
md2 responding to a comment by KiMS1
11.15.10 - 2:48 pm
Officer here is my medical Marijuana card. I have been diagnosed with severe hipster knee syndrome. A debilitating pain in the knees from my fixed lifestyle that requires medicinal herbal cures.
Foldie responding to a comment by md2
11.15.10 - 3:15 pm
covert enforcement on CM = your probably going to get the shit beat out of you if cops catch you
Krumer.
Be 100% of all aspects of CM and cycling. Let cyclists in on any meeting/memos regard CM and cycling.
Otherwise, when you guys work against us, we will be prepared this month. Any attacks on us will be responded to and dealt with quickly and we will move on.
Oh and how the fuck do i get paid to post on forums? Do I have to work for the gov too?
These are just videos that show poor riding habits such as going through reds and crossing the double yellow. Aside from traffic issues, the LAPD does not really see a problem with LACM...we have not seen any conspicuous alcohol or drug use and we have not seen the circle of death in awhile. The only thing other than traffic that can be problematic is the noise and the weaving between stopped cars.
you could've just left it at 'could you provide links to meetings/memos,' but instead had to have a tone that reads more like some kind of threat and close with a lame insult
Kim1s has done good for LA cycling and does environmental good things in LA. Yes there are incriminating MR photos of the both of us out there from back when--at the same time but...
right now the heat is really really on more than it was like 3 years ago... perhaps tied into the numbers/regularity. Either way NOW is really worth a general 'tone it down' or simply reconsidering what pictures of yourself/friends you post on MR.'
i've done my fair share working with LA country and metro.
there are reasons why big cycling cities (portland, minneapolis, etc) are for the most part, DONE WITH CRIT MASS AND MR TYPE RIDES.
stop putting cycling on such a high pedestal and make it instead, just a normal everyday thing. if all of you just shut the fuck up and ride your bikes and stop trying to incorporate partying into every little shit rides you guys do, the public won't see us as such a nuisance. instead we'll just become apart of traffic. isn't that the main goal?
alright, back to work....
KiMS1 responding to a comment by trickmilla
11.16.10 - 10:06 am
and you think it has to do with the people you're embarrassed of because they openly drink and smoke? And not the people you should be embarrassed of those who can't keep from corruption and instead make Los Angeles a more bike friendly city like Portland?
forget work, go back to the drawing board; you're mad at the wrong people
the public won't see us as such a nuisance
Is this what the public thinks? Why do a ton of drivers honk and cheer in support? Do you know the ratio of complaints versus people would say "hell yeah, let them do their thing; that looks fun" (or some version of support)?
it seems like the public is swaying our way if numbers matter over the years. So I think we're doing ok, buddy.
md2 responding to a comment by KiMS1
11.16.10 - 10:28 am
"Currently, there are six designated around town where people cannot drink in public including Downtown Austin’s Central Business District, Barton Springs, West Campus, an area along East Riverside Drive and the Montopolis neighborhood. There are many areas of Austin that do not allow open containers."
Foldie responding to a comment by adrian
11.16.10 - 11:21 am
Why don't you compare what major cycling cities were like before CM and after CM?
The fact is that critical mass and social rides in general are less relevant in cities that get finally get it right. If everybody feels comfortable traveling by bike, if governments take it upon themselves to create bicycling infrastructure, than there is no need to group up with other people for "protest", "statement", visibility or networking.
As far as partying goes, it is as much a part of bike culture in LA as it is apart of every other social sector with similar demographics. Some people like to ride and party, some people worship hedonism, many many other rides here focus on adventure, exploration, activism, family, art, food, music, etc etc . and have little or nothing to do with partying.
I've got news from you.
If every social ride in LA went away we would not be magically granted access to a world of functional infrastructure that allows riders of all levels access to the roads. Thats going to take another 20+ years of hard work and 20+ years of ignoring do-nothing complainers.
And all along the way, on a weekly basis new people are going to be exposed to riding through fun social rides that open up the amazing world of urban cycling to new people.
Some of them will be annoying douchebags who will fade away, others will commit themselves to making LA better for urban vehicular cycling and will stick with it for the next 20 years.
Partnership implies that each be willing to adjust somewhat to the other. If the LAPD is doing all of the give and LACM is doing all of the take where is the partnership?
Partnership implies that each be willing to be partners with the other. If LAPD is imposing itself, uninvited, in a highly visible and provocative way, on LACM, and making it clear that it will continue to do so regardless of how much its imposition and uninvited presence exacerbate the situation, where is the partnership?
PC responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
11.16.10 - 1:49 pm
Let me put it this way: you're the police, and if you want to barge in you can and will do it. You always have in the past, as any number of scandals and expensive lawsuits will attest. But knock it off with this "partnership" nonsense. That's not partnership, that's date rape.
What happened to the cop love fest? Seems to me many were embracing the police presence on CM. So it would be a stretch to call if date rape. Date inappropriate fondling maybe (which would be a excellent career path opportunity to the TSA)
Foldie responding to a comment by PC
11.16.10 - 2:08 pm
"What happened to the cop love fest? Seems to me many were embracing the police presence on CM."
"What happened" is: The police are now receiving a results based critique based on their performance.
"What happened" is: Their change in a approach from June 2010 where the police came out, we friendly, corkerd all the lights and arrested 2 people for graffiti, compared to the last 2 months where the cops handed out upwards of 100 tickets, have been accused of issuing false citations & false arrests in addition to breaking up the ride, intentionally misdirecting people, controlling the ride and hiding around corners to try and catch people running a light.
If you came out LACM or payed attention to the voluminous reports here you would already know that.
I'm only speaking based on what I read here and hear from friends, because long nights at work have been keeping me away from CM rides, so take this with a grain of salt...
The police were conducive to a positive riding environment for exactly one CM ride, one night; but they didn't like having their authority undermined, even though they were willing to play along for a day.
In other words, they allowed the ride as a whole get away with a few violations in order to promote a peaceful ride. Only a few tickets were issued to the worst offenders. But ultimately, the police decided that peace was less important than obedience.
They brought back old strategies; ticket-traps, intimidation, and even violence. (Yes, I do consider a motor unit driving into and physically colliding with a cyclist to be violence. In fact, if a civilian were to make the same maneuver, it would be assault with a deadly weapon, so what gives? All that for an equipment citation? Really? But I digress...)
Instead of continuing to foster a healthy environment on these rides and find a solution through productive cooperation, they threw all the PR work they'd done in the round file and went back to being bullies. I can only speculate as to why, and my speculations wouldn't be polite, so I'll leave them out. It is not too late for them to try some successful tactics again, but they don't seem committed to that route, so I'm not holding out hope for now.
Critical Mass must go underground again. Flyers to riders with an undisclosed starting location. I'm glad to see Trickmilla finally sees the police for what they are: bullies who have no one to police over them and their actions.
hi guys... we need to realize that police officers are trained quasi military individuals. They take orders and are trained to follow the law. I believe they cover discretion and like Trickmilla stated, some laws are enforced more than others... as his example of viewing cars during an hour of no traffic... most if not all will be speeding... but if we keep viewing that traffic as a CHP car passes, i believe we will see a different reaction... of cars slowing... giving the CHP authority and respect (possibly out of fear of punishment & financial costs)...those are tools used to deter crime... Police hope that ppl fear them in order to keep them in control...
and this is a difference about us... like outerspace said... it appears that we undermine their authority...and this builds frustration for police officers... I could hear police officers on bicycles screaming at every red light to stop at reds... some would, some wouldnt... they are human beings... we get upset at each other on these forums because others do not understand what we are trying to say.... and that that we have something in common... bicycles... now when an officer screams at an individual and that individual continues to persist with his actions... what can we expect or what should we expect... some of us do not listen...
from police... we just need transparency... we really need to know what are their thoughts and plans for CM...is it to end it through tickets, citations, and harassment, or control it through the same methods... We seem to only deal with Krumer and he seems to provide this community with a lot of assistance... but we need to know what the motorcycle commanders have in mind... we need to know what Krumer's bosses have in mind... at the end, it is not his decision... it will be his commanders and their commanders commanders... i personally did not like Krumer's statement that if we took it to the CC and they view videos we would be in a more serious situation... I took that comment negatively... something like...you guys are lucky we allow you to do this...take it to city leaders and it will be much worse...
we need to be unified... for all those kids and individuals that received citations... we need to find a way to be in court with them... for them to plead not guilty and for other cyclists to be witnesses and confront the officer that cited them... to inform the judge of the misinformation about some officers saying Stop while others semi corked because they themselves were and are confused... no just use printed thread postings, they need witnesses and ppl to step up...
we need to set up fundraising ideas and follow through... collecting all cans and bottles that are consumed by rides and at home...this way we can funnel that money towards some of these citations... if this is a civil rights movement... we need to be prepared for arrests and citations... not in a violent form but standing up for what we believe... all civil rights movements have ppl unfairly arrested for their cause...
profiling and race... i would like to know what individuals and their race that were cited and for what? age group as well...
I am sorry Trickmilla that i did not contribute anything positive but this is a tough one... I did not enjoy the last CM... but i hope you continue your battle and your activism... continue to ask the difficult questions and hopefully something will arise... your dedication will pay off one day...
Why are people still going to this bullshit ride? We already made our point. We already earned the right to ride in the street. Meeting up once a month to play cat and mouse with the cops is retatrded.
I'm going to start leading an alternate to LACM. Email only with a roving start location. Anyone who wants to go have fun and ride legally without intense police scrutiny is welcome.... the rest can go suck a police baton on LACM
matthew.simmons@gmail.com
First ride starts last friday this month. Start location TBD.
Essentially, the use of a paper will never die due to everything over the web being easily viewable.
Perhaps reverting back to microfilm for covering the rides will be a good way to keep a limited access, visual log over the particular nights activities.
I judge officers and individuals based on their actions and specific LAPD operations by their fairness and effectiveness.
Its why I gave the LAPD/LACM operation the benefit of the doubt in June, and why I am amplifying criticism that has been reported here since then, based on specific incidents and the larger picture that is painted by the collective reports coming back from critical mass.
......
When has CM ever been "underground"?
As I understand it one of the core purposes of CM is to have a well known time and place to meet so that CM is open to everybody.
trickmilla responding to a comment by Bikekowski
11.17.10 - 11:35 am
"I indicated in a previous post that LAPD is involved in LACM not so much for crime suppression but for crowd management. If you feel this is an inappropriate use of resources please take your argument to City Coucil where you can make your case and allow others to respond. "
-Sgt. David Krumer
Was there a directive from LACC for LAPD to start "managing" Critical Mass or the operational turn to heavy enforcement the ride?
Assuming there was no directive from LACC that established the current LAPD approach to LACM why would require an LACC directive for LAPD to turn from the recently adopted tactic of disproportionate scrutiny & heavy enforcement?
trickmilla responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
11.17.10 - 11:44 am
"we need to be unified... for all those kids and individuals that received citations... we need to find a way to be in court with them... for them to plead not guilty and for other cyclists to be witnesses and confront the officer that cited them... to inform the judge of the misinformation about some officers saying Stop while others semi corked because they themselves were and are confused... no just use printed thread postings, they need witnesses and ppl to step up... "
Stillline, thank you that is in fact EXACTLY the thing that needs to happen. When one CM is destroyed amputate it like a gangrene limb. I suggest rather than a closed hidden start point rides (at this stage) just call it CM2, have a flag or something at the wilshire western start point to ID and rally around and invite anyone who wants to come along to join us as we head in the opposite direction of the main body. The cops will only follow the mass ride or we head out of their jurisdiction.
Expect my email.
indigis responding to a comment by stillline
11.17.10 - 6:44 pm
you overestimate how far people are willing to stick their neck out. there are people who would but you are really assuming many cyclist actually have the inner fire to change things. Many people are all talk and no bite when it comes to things that really counts.
To whatever extent it was true, are the LAPD still "invited"?
Who invited the LAPD or continues to do so?
Why at this point does anyone (if any) want the LAPD to attend the rides?
but taking your overestimation point too... ppl tend to stick their necks out for family, friends, or when it impacts them directly.... but if this is a community then we should or need to start looking out for each other... so at a minimum, i hope those individuals cited have their friends and family that were at the ride testify for them about the confusion... Krumer probably can not but he too should consider the testifying since he is aware of the confusion...
i did not enjoy the last CM... but i still wonder... out of all the rides that i have been too... CM tends to bring in folks from all aspects of life and age... there is something that CM has... well, CrankMob brought out a lot of ppl too....
i kind of view cyclists as a community... when i ride my bike and i see someone they look and smile and waive...which is pretty cool... when i am in my car, no one looks at me to waive...maybe to waive a finger.....
and hopefully this community continues to grow and work together...
dayone responding to a comment by mechazawa
11.18.10 - 8:58 am
Crowd Management is a term we use whenever there is a large assembly with a potential to become unlawful...if it does than we move to "crowd control."
There were numerous folks that indicated that they felt that LACM is not an event that warrants police attention...that the community would not support such disproportionate attention and use of resources for a bicycle ride. Clearly the LAPD disagrees. Since there is a disagreement as to what the greater Los Angeles community feels is an appropiate use of resources. I suggested that you (collectively) take your position to a third party...a third party that is supposed to represent the will of the poeple of Los Angeles.
"i personally did not like Krumer's statement that if we took it to the CC and they view videos we would be in a more serious situation... I took that comment negatively... something like...you guys are lucky we allow you to do this...take it to city leaders and it will be much worse... "
Hi dayone,
Reading over the comment now I see that the language I selected may seem a bit confrontational...my apologies. I only meant that City Council will no doubt ask why we feel that we need to be present at LACM....a fair question.
I think that you would agree that there is ample documentation to demonstrate that LACM is not a peaceful little ride where everyone is on their best behavior and following the rules of the road. My feeling is that City Council probably is not really aware of LACM and probably never saw any of the videos that are readily available. I was only suggesting that the cycling community consider whether City Council would support LACM if they knew everything about LACM (both the considerable good and the sometimes bad aspects of it).
I know I may be repeating myself but the LAPD's official position is that we support cyclists as legitimate users of the raodway. We support the rights of cyclists to gather and ride any (and every) street in Los Angeles. However, we expect cyclists to follow the rules of traffic just as motorists are expected to do. If a cyclist or motorist is observed violating the rules than they need to be held accountable.
You have the right to a professional police department that treats you with respect. If an officer is unprofessional, discourteous, or uses excessive force, that officer too needs to be held accountable. The LAPD will do its part...but we really need you to do yours as well. Please stop at the reds, stay on the right side of the road and make formal reports of misconduct if misconduct in fact occurred.
I was only suggesting that the cycling community consider whether City Council would support LACM if they knew everything about LACM (both the considerable good and the sometimes bad aspects of it).
Hmmmm, considering the city council still supports the LAPD in light of the good and the "oh my god they did what?", do you think we have a shot (no pun intended)?
md2 responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
11.19.10 - 4:57 pm
Running a red light is not just a violation of CVC, it is a taboo. When motorists see us violate this taboo not just by running red lights but daring to perform a circle of death, something snaps in their psyche. They lose it. Taboos are very powerful cultural forces. The circle of death is a ritual that is a full frontal assault on car culture and as such must surely generate a lot of complaints from the motoring public. The pedestrians love it!
alexdc responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
11.19.10 - 6:36 pm
Hmmmm, considering the city council still supports the LAPD in light of the good and the "oh my god they did what?", do you think we have a shot (no pun intended)?
A good point...the LAPD certainly has some bad moments and still enjoys (for the most part) the support of City Council.
I think the difference lies on the community as a whole. While certainly a lot of people have issues with the LAPD ranging from allegations of racisim, excessive force, etc...I think it fair to say that the majority of people in Los Angeles, despite some bad history, view the police as a positive and necessary element and as a result City Council supports the LAPD as an organization if not some of the individual actions of some of its members.
I think you are correct in pointing out that running reds and the COD are taboos that illicit a very emotional responce from motorists. Of course many everyday motorist behaviors that endanger cyclists illicit an evan stronger emotional reaction from cyclists. I fully understand that one of the goals of LACM is to LOUDly proclaim to motorists that WE ARE HERE and we DEMAND that you acknowledge us. The goal is good, the message is right, the manner in which it is made however is counterproductive.
In my opinion the best way for LACM to impact the car culture of LA and effect a paradign shift is not to ride in a large MASS but to ride period. Some folks have suggested that all you need for a Critical Mass is 1 or 2 cyclists asserting thier right to a lane. Can you imagine the impact of 2000 cyclists riding in groups of 10-20 going in all directions on dozens of different streets simultaneously? A motorist traveling down one street sees this...and when he turns onto another he sees another group....than another...than another. The same motorist sees cyclists all night long and not just for a few minutes as part of a passing group (like now).
Not only do they see these groups of cyclists they see them following the rules of the road, only taking the right lane of traffic (thereby sharing the road), and basically interacting with them the way they should every day of the week?
What an impact that would make!
Of course not all participate in LACM for political reasons so social change may not be a goal...but if it were...
Krumers' "solution" sounds pretty epic. If everyone broke up into groups, all heading in different locations, each group could police themselves. Riders could choose their own routes, explore new locations, and have a chance to meet new riders.
This would solve the few bad apples problem, since they can't hide in the mass and ruin it for everyone. It would be interesting to see how the LAPD would handle it, and how "afraid" motorist will now be.
This seems like a bike-town-beta-esque idea, and I sort of like it, but do you guys think it takes away from the "Critical Mass" definition. I know most of us here ride almost every day, some of us do small group rides, solo rides, etc. I think riding in a pack of 2000 still has it's appeal to me, because it is only once a month.
Following the rules while spreading bikes all over an area toward a mutual destination = Both critical mass goals are accomplished.
Actually your negative attitude stinks. Go ahead then and ride with all those cops and along with all the other people who continue to give bike riding a bad rap. By all means, just keep doing your thing. Others, however, will be making radical changes in the history of critical mass.
Joe Borfo responding to a comment by revolution
11.21.10 - 10:07 pm
I think ideas are important. Critical Mass has clearly been effective, 2000 people is a huge number. We're succeeding. But, police aren't going to simply go home. We have to adjust to deal with their presence.
We need to get our shit together and keep the mass tight, don't let kids speed off the front tearing the mass apart. The riders at the front have all the power and control of the ride. They are the ones that will decide if the ride gets broken up or not. They must stop a lot to make sure the ride can mass up behind them.
You present some worthy ideas. And I think perhaps, if we play our cards right, we can get some of those goals accomplished.
If we get ridazz on the same page to make Critical Mass successful as a respected event to promote and celebrate riding, rather than a means to get away with trouble, then perhaps a blind eye may be turned on us.
There are rides in the works designed to make Critical Mass successful again in fun and experimental ways.
Actually, I don't realistically think the cops will ever turn a blind eye. That would be really awesome. But technically the can't. So they won't ever.
However, the new directions I have mentioned will be a realistic and effective way towards a real positive change for the direction of CM. In fact we are not going to even call it Critical Mass even though it will be the same thing. Just wait and see if you don't agree.
You can ask around. When I say it's not gonna rain... it's not.
"Actually, I don't realistically think the cops will ever turn a blind eye. That would be really awesome. But technically the can't."
I don't think this is a true statement.
Police turn a blind eye towards all sorts of infractions everytime they are on duty. If they didn't they wouldn't get anything done besides write continual tickets for minor traffic offenses. And if you ever watch motorcycle officers on patrol, that is what they often do. I will see them at the same intersection for an hour or more, continually writing tickets.
Lots of police officers riding their bicycles with us on the mass seem to think that us continuing through a red light when it changes in the middle of a compact mass is actually safer and better for all involved and not a problem. I guess they've learned a different lesson than those in charge.
As Sgt Krumer states, pretty much the only thing we are guilty of is an occasional traffic infraction.
gregb responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
11.22.10 - 8:36 am
The windshield perspective of the motocycle cops harm the ride. They have no clue how to interact with the mass. I am curious what the justification is to have what looked like to me at least 20 of them on the last LACM. The mass moves slow enough that it can be handled by bike cops. They at least have an idea of the dynamics of riding in such a large pack of cyclists and understand that things like stopping in the middle of 1000 people isn't such a simple endeavor.
anty responding to a comment by gregb
11.22.10 - 12:09 pm
You're mostly right, but cops will never officially claim that they will do this. So there is nothing for us to count on. We're better off making a good example of ourselves, and try new ideas that may make this all work for the better.
There's no use talking about it anymore,
It's time to put a new direction in action.
If you are opposed, then don't worry about it. Keep doing the same old thing.
wow you are really fucking up posting does pix i come from a part of town where that is a big NO...homeboys will probably beat you up and take you bike princess..
Those pics were merely pulled from the Photo gallery of this forum. You might want to focus your misplaced part of town anger at the original posters of such pictures.
Foldie responding to a comment by El_Fredone
11.22.10 - 2:59 pm
Many mass rides all at once. This is something that I've believed and practiced since starting to street ride. To myself I always called it a "Critical Mass of One." Be critical mass, don't be intimated when "hated on," own your lane, be traffic.
Cops always turn a blind eye they only react to what they want to last saturday at 5am heard some noise out side went to check it out I found two houses over was being robbed went home call the police.Boy they were they pissed off that I called them at 5 in the morning never have I been may to feel that I was bothering someone until that phone call.If it was a bike ride I would have 20 cops there.Rob a house =0 cops do a bike ride=20 cops back to the story went grabbed my gun got my dogs went back over to the house being robbed didnt know they had a look out by the time I got to driveway robbers were leaving just missed me then I went to check out the house door still open went inside found a GROW HOUSE now I know what they were after sad part about this story is I coundn't get 1 cop to response.
""We need to get our shit together and keep the mass tight, don't let kids speed off the front tearing the mass apart. The riders at the front have all the power..."
Alexdc, it doesn't matter where it comes from, the cops or from ride leaders, exerting control over ridas through power won't work the way you want it to. Especially with a group like MR which lives and breaths rebellious rule braking and anarchy. However design a ride that is fun and ridas eat out of your hand. Case in point; The Pillow Fight Ride. Nobody left the ride body or tried to hijack or they would have missed the secret but designated fight locations. The fun part of the ride That was a perfect night.
Control with pressure, power, and shouts and you'll get the opposite and kill a ride.
You can get everything with honey. We don't respond well to vinegar. Just look at where CM is heading.
indigis responding to a comment by alexdc
11.23.10 - 6:34 am
"I think the difference lies on the community as a whole"
That statement is misleading.
WE have support of the larger community, and some of the larger community does not support mass rides. Neither signs of support or nonsupport indicate the majority.
But which, LACM versus those complaining about LACM, represent a larger community, or represent the "sense" of a larger community?
But again, we're the person's breaking laws and those complaining essentially are not.
Why can't the LAPD just approach, for once, the community with a higher degree of creativity and imagination that does not include "force", "citations", etc? It's old and tired and has not solved any problems outside of LACM.
It's time for the LAPD to change. Don't fall for the idea that it's on us. This is nothing near anarchy nor rebellion. Anyone who grew up with rebellious people knows LACM is doing none of "that". The LAPD is probably laughing at the suggestion that we're even trying to consider ourselves such in light of the real trouble makers in Los Angeles (which ironically brings us back to....)
md2 responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
11.23.10 - 8:01 am
The COPS are a hopeless case. THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT THEM.
HOWEVER, There are ideas already posted and will be implemented WITHIN OUR COMMUNITY to make a change in making critical mass work differently and be COP FREE.
Fuck it, I'm tired of this. You don't want to listen. Keep your bitching and whining.
MaYbE YoU ShOuLd FoCuS LeSs On LaCm AnD mOrE oN rIdEs ThAt OpEnLy BrEaK tHe LaW AnD FeEl LiKe ThEyRe AbOvE ThE LaW By UsInG ThReAts To InTiMiDaTe OtHeRs.
wow you are really fucking up posting does pix i come from a part of town where that is a big NO...homeboys will probably beat you up and take you bike princess..
El_Fredone
responding to a comment by KiMS1
11.22.10 - 2:30 pm
MaYbE YoU ShOuLd InFoRm YoUr FrieNdS In ThE La CoUnTy ShErRiFfs AbOuT ThIs RiDe: ROLLIN' WIT DA HOMIES Up 2 No Good @8pm
EVERY SUNDAY NITE, KING TACO ON 3RD AND FORD BLVD, IN EAST LOS 8:30P MEET UP, ROLL OUT AT 9:30P.
ThE ShErRiFfs ArE RiGht DoWn ThE StReEt FrOm ThE mEeT pOiNt...
For those lonely nights when you're still by yourself and a telescope aimed down the street, it's the formula that will make the night glide by more smoothly.
Talk about making it fucking easy.... why don’t you fucken look at your gallery......... and get your shit straight before you fucken wine about cops being on ppl. rides.... get a fucken life and stick to keeping your damn comments to yourself!!!!! TALK ABOUT BEING SUBTLE.........HOW FUCKEN PATHETIC!!! YOU FUCKEN RAT!!!!!!
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