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yeah we were going up sepulveda (i think) and riders were saying to go back to SM Blvd because theyre were cops with riot shield and gear so everyone went back. They did cork the ride for a bit, but ross everyone went their own way. Over all the ride was fun, except there was nothing of what the post had said. There was no games, water ballons, bowling, DJs, Bands, or anything. And the meet place was hard to find, im sure my goup wasnt the only one with that problem and we had GPS
Ralphs management chose to shut down the store temporarily until crankmas riders left the Ross parking lot. They were concerned with people running in and stealing beer and other disruptions (which have affected them in the past.)
The riot gear is standard officer safety....while some may feel it is intimidating, keep in mind it only takes one person to throw a rock or bottle and do an officer some serious harm...their concerns were a little more than justified from all of the "pig" comments people were making and some of the anti-police sentiment among some.
Invited or not, Crank Mob, especially at it's biggest will end up with police presence at some point. It's hard not to notice a group of a 1000+ people with blinky lights taking over Wilshire Blvd. I think ride is way more manageable when riders know up front there will be police presence. However initial scale of last night was massive on a level I had not seen in a very long time.
Apart from ride being splintered up after Ross, only incident that seemed odd with police presence, at least from my perspective on ride, was cops were corking intersections and stops all night and suddenly one motorcycle cop started announcing he would ticket stops and red lights, and a bunch of us all got to light at Lincoln and cruisers were corking, but a bunch of us stopped unsure what was going because the one officer threatened to write a ticket. In the end we rolled through anyways, and nothing happened.
GarySe7en responding to a comment by Debut213
09.19.10 - 10:30 am
it was really nice of the cops to shove me after having been a paying customer at ralphs, then being told to fuck off and get off the property. way to go lapd!!!!
sancho1 responding to a comment by GarySe7en
09.19.10 - 10:58 am
Overall, I think the LAPD did a great job of escorting us and stopping traffic for us, especially in Santa Monica, which is out of their jurisdiction.
However, I did see one disturbing incident at the intersection of Wilshire and I think Barrington. When the large group of riders was running the light, two motorcycle officers who were heading north on Barrington accelerated straight into the crowd and pinned one rider against the curb.
This was really unnecessary and dangerous. They almost ran me over and I don't see why they needed to use that much force to stop a person on a bicycle running a red light. I don't know what happened to the kid they pinned against the curb. Did he receieve a citation for running the light?
Can you explain for us what kind of training officers are given for name calling?
The riot gear is standard officer safety.... some may feel it is intimidating
What about you Krumer; do you think it is intimidating? What's "your" perception of riot gear?
Seriously, you seem to be "in the know" at this point (i imagine). So your comment(s) "seem" a bit disingenuous, since you should know we're not going to riot; you know what we're about.
So why defend the riot gear? Couldn't you just say -- "yeah, the riot stuff was a little excessive, but really, we just think it looks cool, so we try to put it on as often as we can."
Lastly, this is what Im wondering. Ross was closed. Did we break into Ross? No. And come on, you know some of those hipsters were looking for some cheap curtains for a dress. But us criminals sure resisted, didnt we?
So Ralphs made a game time decision -- close temporarily -- and thats smart. Give the employees a break and let them mingle and grab a cobbler -- and that's community.
Anyhow, so Ralphs closes, and even a guy like me can say "hmmmm, problem solved". Let's all relax... right? No... let's put on fucking riot gear cause im being called a pig. Am I just too weird, or what am I missing? If your officers are scared, then why not just...ummmm, yeah... why not leave, and get out of harms way?
It just seems that in nearly every post we have you defending pretty 100% of police action. Its all justified and appropriate, etc. That may be true in a context or whatever world police live in. Sometimes I want to believe you're here to really make community better... but other times, I just feel like we're getting propaganda. I mean no disrespect by that. But "you" read complaints about police in riot gear, and you justify it. Complaints about tickets, and you justify it. I know police already think this... cause they do it.
You know, If I though Crankmas would result in a riot... I would have brought my cargo bike.
Whatever...
Crank...
md2 responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.19.10 - 11:12 am
Sgt. David Krumer ..asi fare as i know we have the right under the 1st amendment to congregate, and free speech, if some one want to call a cop a pig its there right. right?
The police to me looked like they were trying some sort of scare tactic. What were we going wrong for you guys to act that way? we are all peaceful people and out for a good time. and you guys feel the need to flex on us. is it you feel threatened by the amount of people? like you dont have control, because by natural cops and control freaks. go fight crime and leave us alone.. seriously ... not cool .... that behavior makes me not like your kind even more........ the los angeles police force is and has been one of the most corrupt in the nation since the 1950 and its been proven time and time again. So you guys can attack us in your riot gear then make up a story we stared it..... can you say MAY DAY at Mac Aurther park .... i dont trust you guys ... at all ... protect and server.... more like bully and scare ....
The cops decided to approach me at the park before the ride, because I had a megaphone. They told me that the didn't want people riding into oncoming traffic (on the wrong side of the road) and that they would cork at lights but ticket stragglers that didn't stop at reds. They asked me to tell people, so I did.
What the actually did, was force the entire ride into one left lane, which is not what they represented to me they would do. The way they did it was dangerous and aggressive - they drove at high speeds in the left lane, telling people to stay in the right lane. In a ride that size, driving that fast that close to a group of people on bikes demonstrates at best a complete lack of judgment and at worse a complete disregard for riders safety.
Additionally, forcing a ride that size into one lane caused it to stretch out further and further and further, which was worse for traffic and forced more stragglers trying to figure out what to do at lights.
Finally, the show of force was ludicrous. Police in riot gear wonder why they get shit thrown at them - it's because the sheer numbers of them, whether they do anything, even if they just stand there, is an aggression and it gives rise to aggression in kind.
I was pissed off enough as it was at the completely ridiculous police presence, the way the misrepresented themselves, and their obscene show of force, and then when I got back to the park where the ride started, there were shit tons of cops stationed all around the park to make sure nobody could go in. The whole thing was so highly unnecessary, so over the top ludicrous that my mind reels. We on our bikes couldn't possibly be the worst shit happening in LA last night.
Someone recently expressed to me that they don't want to post their rides on Midnight Ridazz anymore, because the cops are on this site. I am completely 100% sympathetic now. Sgt. Kumer, you can take my anti-cop sentiment and shove it up your ass - last night was a perfect example of why I feel the way I do.
"This was really unnecessary and dangerous. They almost ran me over and I don't see why they needed to use that much force to stop a person on a bicycle running a red light."
And I'd like to hear Sgt Krumer's insight on that. Having witnessed too many people be forced from bikes while they're moving 15mph for faster for some alleged petty traffic infraction is excessive, especially when the person they target wasn't even the one to break the law.
You will never see me defending an officer who is unprofessional, uses inapprooriate language, is rude, or otherwise discourteous. In fact when misconduct comes to my attention I take immediate action to ensure that the officer is dealt with.
With regards to the gear...if you can honestly and sincerely say that there is not a single one in that crowd who is not capable of starting a confrontation by doing something dumb (especially considering that alcohol makes people do stupid things) then I accept your critisism...and respectfully disagree.
The LAPD fully supports your 1st amendment right to peacefully gather...and your free speech right to call us whatever you feel. No disagreement there. It is unfortunate though that your negative experiances with police have perhaps permanently created a rift that can not be bridged....regardless of all efforts to do so.
I wish you well though and hope that at some point there can be a reconciliation.
this is what I got from my police scanner (sorry im stupid like that)
(Krumer, I apologize in advance, but this is just my cheap dose of a happy existence sometimes)
Sgt. Cop: (in a very sgt like voice) "Ok guys, we got an ABC 123, here at CrankMas. Ralphs shut down, or should I say surrrrrendeeerrred? those pussies.... stand our ground I say, right? Anyhow, officers... remmber your training, remeber what you signed up for!! Now, lets protect these Doritos and Pabst Blue Ribbon, cause these kids got the munchies for sure...
Officers: (in unison) "Hippies smell, sir!"
Asst Sgt: "And look at them!! I saw partial football padding...though these kids are across the street and seem to be having a pretty peaceful time, Im sure some of them are ex-quarterbacks. Who knows what they'll throw at as from that distance... we need riot gear. Let me ask you all something: ARE YOU SCARED OFFICERS?"
Officers: (in unison) "Yes, sir, very scared sir"
Sgt: "watch out for glitter and grilled cheese too... and that prancing blondie in the purple power ranger suit -- I... just...dont.... trust.... him... or her... its hard to tell from here."
Cop Bob: "Sgt., maybe we can talk to them, and see if everything is cool. Maybe we can express our concerns and try to ensure that both our safety, Raplhs, and theirs is met?"
Sgt: "beep bloop bop... error... 743... reasoning against ego... compute failure... too much to process... must hold gun... bleeep bloop bop... sense of power restored... Cop Bob, get in formation... we're preparing for riot"
Cop Bob: "but ummmmm.... they dont seem to be...."
Sgt: "Cop Bob, Don't you realize? The next time you see sky, it'll be over another town. The next time you take a test, it'll be in some other school. Our parents, they want the best of stuff for us. But right now, they got to do what's right for them. Because it's their time. Their time! Up there! Down here, it's our time. It's our time down here. That's all over the second we ride up Troy's bucket. "
Cop bob: "What the &%$**.???"
md2 responding to a comment by Ms. Stephanie
09.19.10 - 11:36 am
As I do not have the facts of the individual incident I really can not comment. By forced do you mean they were pushed off their bikes while they were moving or did the officers box them in and force them to stop? As much as I would like to provide you with an answer or some insight, I can not...my sincerest of apologies.
For what it's worth, I deviated from the ride for a minute by Rose and Main st so I could take some pictures. As I waited at the intersection for the ride on Rose, I heard a group of about 5 motorcycle officers also waiting talking about how they were going to ticket anyone running a red and looking for any excuse to give tickets. What gives LAPD? I thought we were friends again. I know you all have radios, cell phones (I see you using them when you are driving!), and ghettobirds. Can't you all communicate a little better amongst yourselves? How can you have some police support the ride and some trying to shut it down at the same time? T=
if you can honestly and sincerely say that there is not a single one in that crowd who is not capable of starting a confrontation by doing something dumb (especially considering that alcohol makes people do stupid things) then I accept your critisism...and respectfully disagree.
-- First, if your judgment is as such, that you wonder if ONE person is capable of doing something dumb, then you should wear riot gear everywhere. Let me ask you this:
if you can honestly and sincerely say that there is not a single officer in that crowd who is not capable of starting a confrontation by doing something dumb, then I accept your critisism...and respectfully disagree.
I was asking questions too. You know and we know, that the police did not need to form their whole performance art piece in the ralphs parking lot.
You guys couldnt huddled under some tree and laid low, talked about stuff, updated each other on family photos, twitted... i dont know... if you can respond to a call from miles away, im sure you can get to a Ross parking lot from a block away.
But I guess Im just so unreasonable like that... better live in fear than anything else.
Its all just so over the top and Steph noted... why cant you see that????
md2 responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.19.10 - 11:45 am
I wasn't at Crankmas. At an LACM back in February I was behind the pack trying to catch up on Los Angeles St downtown when with no warning a female officer grabbed my arm as I rode by and tried to pull me off my bike. She and her partner already had 3 people on the ground. I was riding perfectly legally. I heard later that these two officers got pissed that there were some kids riding on the wrong side of the road and running lights. Even so I don't think pulling a kid off his bike at 15 mph for a traffic infraction is anything but excessive. And to try to pull me off my bike for doing NOTHING WRONG is fucking bullshit.
toweliesbong responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.19.10 - 11:49 am
I am sorry but we will just have to agree to disagree on the riot gear. While we may disagree on this particular issue I am hopeful that we can still have common ground on other issues that come up.
riot gear or not, just admit that the sheer amount of people all in one place is what the LAPD act the way they did/do. i try hard to see your point and be opened minded. I just dont get it. where is the freedom, the liberty and the pursuit of happyness? my whole beef is we have rights as Americans, fundamental rights that are under attack by the LAPD.... you guys are public servants and work for the poeple, not against the people. did you forget that along the way?
I'm trying to keep from the posts being completely negative so hopefully you dont take the jokes the wrong way. I'm hoping you're seeing that we're trying to engage you from our perspective.
Since you're looking for common ground, seriously think about this:
Ross parking lot. -- common ground
Ralphs parking lot -- not common ground.
Can you tell me which location Krumer (the non-officer) felt safer in? Where do you the general public would have felt safer? I know you can answer this. The point is clear. But playing the post acrobatics is fun too. hopefully you're understanding more or less where we're coming from day by day, post by post.
Next time we'll bring the riot gear instead of grilled cheese, cobblers, jump ropes, mega phones, and blinky lights. Sorry for all intimidation.
md2 responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.19.10 - 12:10 pm
The number of people that gather is of course a factor in determining what kind of presence the police will have. Another factor is the kind of event, the venue, and of course the reason for the gathering.
I try to be a reasonable and understanding man. and what we do is not "normal" i understand. the venue is the streets i ride every day, the event was healthy and in good fun and the reason was not political nor malicious, just good clean fun. now you try and understand why we feel the way we toward the LAPD for acting the way they did to us last night. I went into Ralph's to BUY not STEAL and when i came out i was greeted by police ready to riot. caught me totally off guard. bad vibes. we do have the right to agree to disagree. the same right we have to ride our bike any where and and time we choose. my problem with law enforcement in general is that officers dont feel laws apply to them. talking on there cellphone while driving, drinking and driving etc. you know what im talking about.
Migcycle responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.19.10 - 12:41 pm
- Forcing the ride into the right lane. Sorry, but this event should be treated as a parade and just let us take over the road. Stretching the ride out twice as long as it would be with two lanes is not helpful. The biggest danger on the ride came from police speeding down the left lane, all it would've taken is one person to swerve and they would've been hamburger under a cruiser's tires.
- Corking. Police were corking some intersections, but other officers on motorbikes were telling people to stop at reds. This led to people being unsure what the police wanted us to do, so I repeatedly saw people stopping at the lights the police were trying to cork for them. Epic fail, guys.
I honestly feel that the police made the ride more dangerous than it would've been if they hadn't shown up, and I lost a lot of respect for the LAPD for showing up in riot gear. The police working the event should've been on bicycles themselves, should've communicated effectively, and they shoud've left the scary costumes at home.
@ Sgt. Krumer;
Why were we given instructions that the ride was over as a "group"? What i am asking Is why didn't we have the right to continue riding our bicycles on the streets of Los Angeles after the parking lot stop? What factors were involved that resulted in the final decision by the police department to shut down the ride as a group?
What was with the cops forcing us into the right lane, when they were taking up the left lane? Was it just to give the cops free rein to roam around the left lanes ('cause they at that point became the ones blocking traffic from passing us)? I appreciated the corking and all, but the cops were driving more aggressively than a lot of the Saturday night drunks. I felt like we would have been safer with all the usual Westside assholes on the road than the cops. I also saw a few altercations between cyclists and cars - the kind of things that I think the cops, if present, should help to resolve - but watched the cops just continue past. We have one of these situations on video and will post details later today.
In the incident I saw, the officers boxed the rider in with their motorcycles by making physical contact motorcycle to bicycle a la checking in hockey. They created a terrible hazard by riding their heavy motorcycles perpendicularly into the crowd of cyclists. I know that I couldn't have stopped suddenly at the red light or I would have been run over by the hundreds of bikes right behind me. It also wasn't clear why this one kid was singled out for this treatment out of the hundred or so people in the intersection. Was it to make an example of him?
What is the deal with using force to cite minor traffic violators? Can you imagine if people were physically yanked out the windows of their cars every time LAPD gave someone a ticket? There would be an outcry.
I think part of the fear & anxiety generated by the LAPD at these events is that no one is informed of the police's intentions. One minute they are corking the intersection for us and the next they are citing us for running the red lights. It generates a ton of confusion.
As for the riot gear @ Ralphs: At least they kept a healthy distance from the crowd @ Ross. I know I tried to go to Ralphs and was yelled at to keep away or keep back. I took the hint and left the area, but was wondering to myself WTF? I just wanted to buy a sandwich.
cascandal responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.19.10 - 1:38 pm
1. Forcing a thousand people into the right lane will stretch the ride out endlessly. You'll need to have even more police presence to try to contain such a long stretch of riders. It also blocks traffic for a longer duration of time. I won't even address the possibility of getting doored as a result of being confined to ride in such confined proximity to parked cars.
2. At the beginning of the ride, the police were corking the intersections. This was very helpful and allowed the ride to go through the intersections without problems. However, the very next intersection after they corked, the police suddenly started ticketing. They ticketed my friend who was in the group riding through with me. He had all appropriate lights and gear. If you cork, we will ride through all intersections, because that's how the precedent was set up. You can't just change policy halfway through.
3. I'd advise against splitting the group up at intersections (by not allowing corking or allowing them to ride through) because then you have a bunch of split up groups. This can get quite chaotic and hard to manage as groups try to catch up since we don't all know the route.
The police handling of Critical Mass has been pretty good since the police started riding with us. I'm not sure why you guys decided to handle Crank Mob differently.
This problem is bigger then just the LAPD and MR.
This has been happening in America since it began.
When the public organizes and shows a large presence in a public space, indoors or out, they will be met with a greater military force whose objective is to disarm and foil the gathering. Any amount of force can be used and justified without trial or prosecution, which is unjust and has proved to be true over and over again.
Hopefully attitudes and perspectives will change sooner then later when the people and the cops realize they are playing on the same team and fighting each other only prolongs the struggle of the average human here in America.
Fighting over this issue here will never solve it. Actions will.
LAPD is getting ever closer to creating a Martyr. The minute they accidentally kill a rider on a ride the following riot will be so bad it'll make Chicago and the Rodney king riots look like a joke. Sgt. you have got to do something...I'm a peaceful person but I will not let anyone get away with murder due to recklessness no matter how well they are trained or not trained.
I would need you to clarify what the instruction you received was. Did the officers order a dispersal and if so what prevented you from leaving as a group...or in the alternative regrouping afterward? My understanding was that people started leaving on their own in groups with the police following the larger ones for awhile.
With regard to corking...the rule is basically this: If the police decide to cork (at their descretion) and basically instruct you to proceed through an intersection against a red light than you are in complaince with the vehicle code. If there is a red and there is no officer corking than you risk being cited for running the red.
Several folks have indicated that the LAPD failed to properly explain this and that is a fair criticism. At next weeks LACM, so as to prevent that same confusion, we will make clear that you can only go through a red if an OFFICER is corking, and are subject to a citation if they are not. Thanks for the feedback on the ncorking issue.
A judge ruled Tuesday that New York City can force groups of 50 people or more on bicycles to get a parade permit, a process known to be cumbersome.
The legal battle stemmed from a clash between cyclists and police in 2004 during the Republican National Convention in which hundreds of bicyclists were arrested for alleged unruly behavior.
After the incident, the New York City Police Department sought stricter enforcement on Critical Mass, a group cycling event that clogs up busy city roadways on the last Friday evening of every month. The event started in San Francisco in 1992 and is now mimicked in cities around the world.
We are aware of the New York decision. It basically stated that it is not an unreasonable interference on assembly. Cyclists could assemble but must get a permit and provide NYPD with a route as the police have a legitimate interest in ensuring order and planning for an event or gathering that would have a significant impact on the community.
Hopefully the partnerships that we are trying to build within the cycling community will help Critical Mass evolve somewhat so that the community through which we ride is not negatively impacted...and we can avoid the New York scenario.
Barleye: Im pretty sure that was manly because it was just too much, and the ride needed to downsize. I think that the "disperse rumor" was simply to get the cops away and to make the ride small enough to continue. I partied my little heart out until 7am with over 200 people from crankmob and didn't see one cop. the plan worked!.......for some.
I like the idea of police corking and not getting tickets while running reds. BUT if we run the risk of getting tickets anyways because of miscommunication between the cops corking, then I rather just have our regular, trusty fixie corkers at the helm. I rather not see cops on the ride if they are helping or hurting us.
Big, big rides like these usually can't run all night... police and cars just don't have the patience and that's why they usually end early like Critical Mass. It was just a shame that a lot of the awesome people I wanted to partied with left.
Thanks for the quick reply Sgt. Krumer.....When I arrived at the Ross lot, a friend asked where Richie (crank mob organizer) was and noted the police wanted to speak to him...a few minutes later Richie announced that the police told him the ride was over and we had 10 minutes to disperse or people would be cited....I hope that clarifies the confusion...
What would the charge be if we stayed longer than the allotted time given? Guilty of riding a bicycle? The reason I put it to you this way is because we are each an individual on a bicycle at a certain place at a certain time. It may sound ridiculous to you but in reality that's OUR reality. It may be semantics as well but these rides are not ending ANY TIME soon....
In response to your corking explanation above...How safe REALLY is it to cork one intersection and allow us to ride upwards of 15-25mph in most cases through the red light without guarantying the next red light is being corked? Please correct me if I'm under the wrong assumption here..but are you saying with 1000+ riders we can get corked (by the police) and allowed to run a red then possibly have to stop even a block away as a result of a red light?
If that is a correct assumption, then you SERIOUSLY need to re-think this scenario because if we do that, and stop we will get trampled by a multi bicycle pile up. I know it's the law to stop at a red light without a police escort....You need to bring this up at your next meeting.
barleye responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.19.10 - 5:35 pm
Im not gonna comment on any of the "Riot Gear" stuff being brought up for i didn't see it. I did see allot of stupid choices made by cops on motorcycles and cars while riding, but, to be honest, it must have been tuff for you guys. You tried to take control of something, that simply isn't controllable. Its a bike ride, its supposed to move and the LAPD made that hard.
the thing that makes me angry, terrified, and worried about my fellow cyclists, is that. I spoke to a guy who said he was in Venice beach earlier that night and saw a group of over 30 venice guys, some with guns, waiting for the ride to come by because of a fight that had broken out on a ride.
There is real crime you can be fighting, and im sorry your guys job can get a bit boring, but imagine if a group of riders road down to the beach and got shot up simply because the LAPD was too busy wearing silly costumes lined up outside a ralphs. :(
popsiclekid responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.19.10 - 5:44 pm
With reagrds to the dispersal...if the crowd is ruled an unlawful assembly than the charge would be failing to disperse. But after you leave you can reassemble. But now I understand that it was a rumer that Richie was ordered to disperse and that as an excuse because he himself saw it was getting out of hand. In any case you could reassemble peaceably afterwards.
With regards to corking. The official LAPD policy is that cyclists must stop at every red light/stop sign. I in fact agree with you that to cork some and not others is a bad idea...so if the choice is between corking none and corking all the answer will be corking none.
Can you state on this public forum re: corking what the policy will be for this upcoming los angeles critical mass? On paper it makes sense.....in reality it obviously does not.
barleye responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.19.10 - 6:41 pm
I think having the police on our side is a great step in the right direction. We've all seen rides get out of hand and I can totally understand why police were in riot gear yesterday. Having fun and disrespecting your surroundings don't have to go hand in hand and that's what gives rides a bad name. If you aren't doing anything wrong, there is no reason not to have the police there. I am really disappointed at all of the people who were yelling things like "pigs" at the police. They are only trying to do their job and aggravating them will only result in shutting rides down, police hating cyclist and you looking like an asshole.
i heard the cops say tell several cars to back out of the cyclists' lanes. i felt much safer having the police there to deal with reckless motorists. i almost got hit by some psycho in a green volvo who drove into the intersection in the midst of a mass of cyclists. i thought i heard him hit someone after i passed, but i wasn't able to catch up with im.
and with regard to the riot gear, yes it seems a little silly that the cops overdressed, but they certainly didn't over-react. if i were a cop and all i knew was that i was going to be policing a thousand drunk cyclists, that wouldnt be the day that i left my shit at home. so yeah, i was very impressed with the police last night. i hope their actions convinced a few more drivers that being stuck behind a cyclist doesn't justify attempted murder.
Fuck the cops collectively. Individuals such as Sgt Krumer may fine upstanding representatives of the LAPD but get a couple of not so upstanding officers together and they end up all being assholes.
Until they start acting responsibly I'm staying as far away as possible from them. That is they need to stop giving conflicting orders and they need to stop trying to injure riders for simple traffic infractions.
Again, if I can't make myself more clear:
FUCK THE POLICE, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY'RE IN LARGE GROUPS!!!
If you have an argument to make about not cooperating with the police than make it.
It is silly to resort in name calling because you disagree with somebody.
I don't think I'll ever agreee with your "fuck all cops" philosophy, but I'm certainally to listen if you can make a cogent arguement.
By the way, if you are looking for Narcs, start with person who says "fuck the cops ... hey lest go score some e for the ride, fuckin rippin yo." Its at least a start.
Actually I wouldnt be surprised if there was narcs already in every single ride or big ride that is posted in this forum. The vice unit does it all the time when protest happen in LA:. so why not do on rides. Call me paranoid but Its probably already happening
Glue:. responding to a comment by coldcut
09.19.10 - 11:20 pm
Hahaha, the LAPD must have read this because I just about got hit head on by one heading the wrong way on Spring St between 2nd and 3rd. He ended up pulling someone over in front of the Redwood.
the cops aren't on our rides to bridge any gaps. they don't give a fuck about our safety or any other bullshit excuse they shit out of their mouths. they're just on our rides to study us, intimidate us, harass us, and make examples of those they single out. they're around to "protect and serve" the status quo. always and forever.
coldcut responding to a comment by trickmilla
09.20.10 - 12:57 am
Fuck the [d-bag] cyclists collectively. Individuals such as [towliesbong] may fine upstanding representatives of the [MR community] but get a couple of not so upstanding [cyclists] together and they end up all being assholes.
Until they start acting responsibly I'm staying as far away as possible from them. That is they need to stop giving conflicting [justifications for their actions] and they need to stop trying to [live in a lawless society]
Again, if I can't make myself more clear:
FUCK THE [CYCLISTS], ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY'RE IN LARGE GROUPS!!!
mab responding to a comment by toweliesbong
09.20.10 - 1:34 am
I used to have a big beef with the cops but in general things have seemed to be headed in roughly the right direction with them. So I have tried to be more constructive with anything I post regarding the police as I learn more about them, and have more interactions with them.
But I will say this: hypocrisy is the number one way to piss people off and erase any credibility you've built for yourself. If you are trying to convince us to act in a safe and legal manner, your comrades on the force had better god-damned be willing to do the same. Pulling a person off of a moving bicycle unwarranted is assault if a non-officer does it; speeding by a bicycle less than three feet away in a Crown Vic is reckless endangerment if a non-officer does it; intentionally colliding with a cyclist with your motorcycle is attempted murder with a deadly weapon if a non-officer does it. So why is it ever okay for police officers to do these things?
Yeah, yeah, I know, you "don't know all the details" and "don't condone those actions" and "can't comment on that right now" and all that other lip service. I know you're trying to see things from our point of view, and I appreciate that, I really do, but you don't always sound like you understand why some of us are so mad about this behavior. I'm sorry to say it, but if you as an individual, Sgt David Krumer, were to wake up tomorrow completely enlightened and with us 100% of the way, we are still going to be absolutely incensed at the way your coworkers are still treating us on the street every day, as groups and as individuals. Are you seeing this? Giving out tickets is one thing. Do that as much as you want if it is warranted. I kind of encourage it to an extent. But the instant that we see police officers breaking the rules that they claim to be enforcing, well... what do you expect us to think, and feel?
Again, I'm not targeting you personally, I am convinced that you are here to mediate and help. But as mediator, you need, need, need to bring this perspective to your superiors and get them started on reigning in the beat cops and motor units that are literally putting cyclists' safety and lives at risk. Is that too much to ask from the police? The police, for crying out loud!
If the LAPD is going to play nice at Critical Mass and then play the part of a bunch of ruthless, violent, frankly mean cops at the next event, LAPD may as well never have played nice in the first place. We will forget the token gesture of kindness in an instant when we see that the police are still just as they were before: violent and mean and unable to peacefully resolve a situation.
On recent Critical Mass rides I have heard people whining that it's annoying to have cops on the ride, but people have mostly had good things to say about the cops' behavior on the last few CM rides. The cops helped out in their own way and went with the flow.
All of a sudden CRANKMOB comes along and LAPD hucks all the hard work it's been doing, displaying instead (among other things) a complete lack of coordination amongst themselves and a gross, GROSS disregard for cyclists' safety that they would be jumping at the opportunity to cite anyone else for. In other words, they did everything they tell us not to do, except with more dangerous vehicles under / around them and badges to provide impunity if something were to go wrong.
What do you think that does to the credibility of LAPD? It shows us that when officers are not under the strictest and most specific of orders to be nice to cyclists, they go back to being more of a danger to us than we are to ourselves and the communities we ride through. This behavior generates a potentially lethal danger to us. You say the department takes this seriously. None of us sees the department taking this seriously.
A reprimand or a note in the file of an officer is not taking the situation seriously, considering the repercussions felt by a civilian who is guilty of a lesser offense than those I'm describing here.
If you are going to justify your actions by saying that it's always possible for one rider to start an altercation, then surely you must understand why we are so angry with the police for (not potentially, but in actuality) having started many altercations with riders. How is it that civilians (riders and otherwise) have no recourse for unsafe behavior by officers? Are we getting through to you? I get the feeling that we are getting through to you, as an individual. But I get the feeling that even with you on our side, things are hopeless with corruption and general human nature leading many officers to continue behaving illegally and simply dangerously.
I think I might even be talking in circles at this point, I dunno, I'm just typing and typing and it's late. Tomorrow I will regret posting this because I will feel like even if you bring these concerns to the department, and if your superiors listen to you, there still isn't anything you can do about it at the ground level because the average cop doesn't give a damn what you tell him to do. He already knows the rules and regs and he knows he isn't supposed to do all the things we're complaining about. So what are we even doing here? You think you can reform all the bad cops you already have out there and prevent any more bad cops from joining the force? Okay now I'm getting cynical, time for bed.
The LAPD is currently working on tactics on the safest way to pull a cyclist over whether they are riding as an individual or in a group. If you have a suggestion I am all ears.
With regard to a reprimand not taken seriously…please keep in mind that when we issue a citation to a civilian that citation can be erased by traffic school or will fall off of your record in a few years. A reprimand in an officers file is their forever and has negative repercussions for the officer for his entire career. Several reprimands for the same thing (demonstrating a pattern of behavior) can devastate an officer. If the officer is out of line than I encourage you to make a complaint…but here is something that you and everyone else must also recognize: Many civilians do not really understand constitutes misconduct or “inappropriate” behavior in the objective sense. A prime example is the whole discussion on riot gear. A lot of people expressed shock and outrage and said that officers were way out of line…(I say the following with the utmost respect) they are 100% wrong. You can make a complaint for this but the officers will be found justified based on objective standards of reasonableness; factoring in officer safety, the nature of what was going on, and the anti-cop sentiment expressed so openly by so many on the ride.
Another example is that cyclists say they were singled out for a violation when everyone else is doing the exact same thing . Again, the fact that we cannot cite everyone does not mean we cannot cite anyone. The fact that someone is upset because they were the unfortunate ones to get a ticket when no one else did does not constitute misconduct by the officer (unless there is biased policing alledged).
Many cyclists have expressed that it is not so much the citation that bothers them but the attitude of the officer who is writing it. The most common complaint is they do not want to be lectured or treated rudely by the police. This is something the LAPD does need to work on and we are.
I would like to point one thing out. Tortuga wrote that we may have overdressed but not over-reacted. Considering that we technically could have shut down the event at the very beginning or at the Ross parking lot…I appreciate that someone on this forum openly states that the officers (barring some individual incidents) showed a tremendous amount of restraints. If you fail to understand that 10 years ago officers observing what they did in the park, and in the parking lot, would have acted completely differently than you truly do not understand just how much of a change there is in police culture. Admittedly there is still much to do but lets also acknowledge the progress we’ve made. Thank you Tortuga!
I had fun, I guess I missed the cops in riot gear... I wish I had seen it, it would have been a riot. LOL
Well, it just goes to show how unfriendly this city is. The parks close at dusk, the buses are late and/or non-existent, and there are no places for people to get together, legally, at dusk. Unless you count sitting in a stuffy night club and having to spend a ton of money on "well drinks".
It's a shame really, LA could be like other European cities that are up all night and more small busnesses that are either locked into corporate hours (9-5) or closed due to lack of customers could stay open at night.
I get the feeling that TPTB (The Powers That Be) want everyone indoors after 10:00 p.m....is'nt that Marshall Law? What kind of a life is that? Citizens should be able to enjoy thier city, for free, 24/7.
" appreciate that someone on this forum openly states that the officers (barring some individual incidents) showed a tremendous amount of restraints."
While I appreciate you're point of view, may I suggest a paradigm shift?
Instead of viewing these rides as something requiring "restraint", I suggest that the City of Los Angeles view them as an asset to the city.
These rides are a boon to the community, to small business and to the city itself. I was born and raised in Los Angeles and in all my life I've never had as much fun in LA as I've had since going on these huge party rides, these rides have transformed my life as a native Angeleno.
I think the LAPD, the Mayor and the city should support these rides to the fullest. Get the word out to all interline agencies (airlines, travel companies) and Realtors and developers, have photos of riders in costumes on their brochures because as attractions go these rides are a phenomenon, right up their with Disneyland and the Hollywood sign.
It's a shame that the LAPD and the City are looking a gift horse in the mouth, missing the big picture - where else on EARTH can you experience these kinds of rides if not in Los Angeles? - and an even bigger opportunity to create revenue for small business and big bushiness alike and enhance the quality of life for it's citizens.
Instead of putting on body armor, get your staff on bicycles and join the ride?
Instead of asking us to leave a huge parking lot why not coordiante with the shops to have extra trash cans available and porta poties and do some PR and advertising to encourge the entire community to take part? Pretty soon venues will be vying to be the location.
Or have a section of the beach avaliable all night long?
I saw huge lines at taco trucks and Tommy's Burgers and at other places on the way back from the ride.
Girl Power responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.20.10 - 12:42 pm
The LAPD is currently working on tactics on the safest way to pull a cyclist over whether they are riding as an individual or in a group. If you have a suggestion I am all ears.
common sense would be a good start.
A reprimand in an officers file is their forever and has negative repercussions for the officer for his entire career.
LAPD internal affairs is a joke unless you have video or an overwhelming number of witnesses. i've experienced this myself.
asparagus responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.20.10 - 12:57 pm
I was actually looking up which public parks are open til 10:30 in response to your previous post...in any case lets talk about your more recent post.
The City does view cycling as an asset. The City views cycling events as an asset as well. The City does not view the other activities that were part of Crankmas as an asset. You brought up business and revenue. Ralphs (across from Ross) requested that officers prevent anyone from coming in the store. They preferred to shut down rather than allow those at the event to come in. They were in fear (we will not get into whether that fear was justified)...several citizens came up and asked police why we did not shut it down...they were also in fear as well. WHat went on in the parking lot at Ross is not an asset to the City. I welcome any arguments to the contratry.
I am always being asked: "Why can't the police just see the fear and hostility they are inspiring in cyclists as a result of their outrageous behavior. "
I ask you this: "Why can't cyclists just see the fear they are creating in the average person when they ride en mass against the vehicle code, swarm cars, are loud and tapping cars as they pass? Why can't cyclists just see that people become afraid when they see an unruly mob drinking and smoking, setting off fireworks and leaving trash behind?"
The City and the LAPD support cycling...its the other stuff that is the issue.
Hi Sgt. Krumer. There was a couple of times riding that night where I would come to an intersection where there were cops posted and people were still running reds with out cops corking. If I stop at the red there is a huge possibility of someone getting injured. But if I go through the light I run the possibility of getting cited. Especially considering I was wearing a stupid santa suit I would be easily pinpointed.
What do you suggest one does when that is the only options to either possibly injury someone or get cited? Besides not wearing a stupid santa suit.
buckchin responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.20.10 - 1:13 pm
Well, I respectfully disagree with you. We may just have to agree to disagree.
Have you eve been to Mardi Gras in New Orleans? People tap cars, ride/walk against traffic and they are not "creating fear in the average person". Revelers do all kinds of drnking and smoking and NO one is "afraid" and New Orleanes would never dream of shutting it down.
What you call "unruly mob drinking and smoking, setting off fireworks and leaving trash behind" is naturl marry-making and all cultures do it, it's a part of our humanity.
I recently read that you posted that police officers only need a GED or high school diploma? I think that is a travisty. I had no idea that so little was required to get into the force. The idea of GED dropout carrying guns acting as "the law" makes me, the avarage college educated person, afraid, very afraid....
I suggest that the LAPD requires a four year college degree, and some mandated courses of study - in addition to law, criminial justice should be antropology, phychgology and sociology.
I don't amire the idea or an organizatiuons whose memebers are uneducated (sorry, but a GED does not cut it in my book and it would not for most jobs in coorporate America either) telling me what constitutes proper and unproper behaviour.
I lost a lot of respect when I found out about that, that needs to change. College degrees and simple 'life expierence' should be a mandate for law enforcment officers.
Yes, police DO create an atmosphere of of fear. Fear in the community, fear in the cyclists and fear in the businesses. The fear was not there, they put it there, if you had cops in New Orleans reacing to merry-makers, business owners and citizens as the LAPD has then it would be a totally different expierence. The NOPD supports the celebration and as role models and leads the citizens and business follow suit. It's simple socio-economic phychology' of course, if the LAPD was an educated institution they would already know this...
Girl Power responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.20.10 - 1:19 pm
The most responcible and safe way to go...get a permit, post a route. The police can then close the streets for your use. No confussion or inconsistancies...all parties on the same page.
In the absence of treating this like a rolling parade I can not offer you an answer other than this...when you are coming to a red, pull to the right so that when you stop you will not get rear ended. Communicate that YOU intend to stop so that the folks behind you have notice. Thats about all you can do.
Truth of the matter is you need to have more people taking a leadership role and encourage stopping at reds so that it is the rule rather than the exception.
"Yes, police DO create an atmosphere of of fear and negativity. Fear in the community, fear in the cyclists and fear in the businesses. The fear was not there, they put it there, if you had cops in New Orleans reacting to merry-makers, business owner and citizen "fears" as the LAPD has then Mardi Gras would be a totally different expierence. A decidedly negative one.
The NOPD supports the celebration, and since the police are role models and leaders - they 'set the tone' by thier reactions to complaints etc - the citizens and business therefore adopt thier attitude and follow suit. It's simple socio-economic phychology' of course, if the LAPD was an educated institution they would already know this..."
every lane is a bike lane. we don't need any fucking permits. tell all the motorists in LA to get permits for clogging up our streets and polluting our air everyday, asshole.
coldcut responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.20.10 - 1:26 pm
Mardi Gras is a city sanctioned and permitted event with someone taking responcibility for it. Additionally it has the support of the larger New Orleans community.
As I indicated, Ralphs was so intimidated that they shut down, community members were so intimidated that they questioned why we were not taking action...the event organizer (Richie) even recognized that things were getting out of hand. This is not Mardi Gras.
By the way...did you know that you can get a permit for open air drinking in public? No one is saying you can not have a party...but it has to be done the right way.
I think he just meant that you should get a parade permit so that you can continue riding against a red light without it being a traffic violation. Not that you should get a permit to just ride as a group.
graciela responding to a comment by coldcut
09.20.10 - 1:38 pm
I like Sgt Krumer and think he is doing the best in a situation that has no real solution. Rides like CM and crankmob are just too big to manage and there is always going to be "incidents" and cops will be blamed for their perceived behavior while cyclist actions will be immune from criticism.
I hope there can be a happy medium and understanding on "tactics" of helping with rides.
Perceived behavior? Gimme a break. The perception of officers in riot gear is one thing, getting dragged off of a bike or rammed into a curb is a harsh reality with no subjective perception at all, it's wrong and inexcusable.
And, yes, the cycling community should be more self-critical, especially in regards to riding on the wrong side of the road, littering, vandalizing, stealing, etc. Running red lights and stop signs, though, needs more discussion. It is the opinion of many that keeping the group together has much less impact on traffic.
If only more of the local police departments had more Sgt Krumers then maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I leave this as my last post about it, since Ive joked and said enough already. I think someone like Girl Power essentially has the right broader perspective.
Again, the fact that we cannot cite everyone does not mean we cannot cite anyone.
But what you're missing and or pretending not to believe is that the ticketing officer has no real desire to make the street safer (in that moment). That's what pisses people off. It's that they know the cop is doing this just because THEY CAN, not because they think its right or fair or just or promotes safety. It was a test of their ego, and they couldn't take it. How do you desert your commitment toward law and safety to ticket one rider while hundreds more are in jeopardy -- soory Krumer, we need a better explanation to NOT believe these officers are just being dicks.
An officer who really cares about community and safety, is getting smacked in the face with one of the most diverse acts of community and cannot recognize it. Mass rides are largely a hope to create safer streets, whether your buddies are just so in love with current law and applying it or not.
Hopefully many of us don't stop challenging the laws. And don't stop questioning what we're feed by the LAPD.
ALSO:
Im so glad that you pointed out that officers showed a tremendous amount of restraint saturday night.
Can any of you imagine if these officers were didn't show TREMENDOUS RESTRAINT? Krumer, can explain what you have in mind with that statement you made? Maybe just elaborate on why it took a tremendous effort, so we can appreciate more fully what we were saved from had the restraint not been there.
We'll just take comfort in the fact that they guys with legal power to act this way, aren't as bad as they were 10 years ago. Or at least now they're showing tremendous restraint (praise Allah, thank god, tom cruise and Buddha, shit...)
Sadly cops are victims of their own mentality. Domestic violence on their spouses, suicide, etc, are all the more reason to feel bad that they don't let go of the attitudes. It hurts us and it hurt their own lives (families) too.
Krumer, you have so work cut out for yourself. I'm hoping, if my points have any merit, that you're getting at least what is seemingly wrong with some of the LAPD pictures were seeing (or at least to me). I don't intend to discourage, so sorry if I get too silly or mean. I just dont see how to make sense of this show of force in relation to what Crankmas was doing. You believe in it. You're indoctrinated and so are we.
md2 responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.20.10 - 1:55 pm
I like Sgt Krumer and think he is doing the best in a situation that has no real solution.
I agree with you here
and cops will be blamed for their perceived behavior while cyclist actions will be immune from criticism.
This I dont agree with
Anytime time I have ever heard anything in the Media about us they are completely biased and always on the side of motorist. And I would say 99% of people believe them, turning public opinion against us. I have heard hundreds of complaints against police on behalf of cyclists. The only time anything has been done about it was when it was caught on tape. Police are Innocent until caught on tape, and thats the only time they are guilty in my opinion.
.
buckchin responding to a comment by Foldie
09.20.10 - 2:00 pm
Girl Power, I understand what you're saying but the problem with the Ralph's parking lot is that it's not a public space. It's commercial property that is private and either the landlord or the tenants can complain to the police and do what they want with their parking lot. If the staff at Ralph's complained to the police, then the police are required to act in a manner that protects the property and the rights of the tenants. We all see the no loitering signs and the right to refuse service signs at all private businesses. So if the Ralph's staff asked the police to remove the riders from the parking lot, what else could the cops do?
I think your suggestion of providing more amenities (like trash cans) at some business sites are great and maybe with a heads up a store wouldn't feel threatened and can be more welcoming. But I think that falls on the ride organizer making it happen and extending themselves to the community, not the police doing so. It's not the police's ride, right? Half the people on this thread don't even want the police there so why ask them to do PR for the rides?
The cops can only enforce the laws that are on the books. They don't write the laws. So start a petition to have a section of a beach open all night and try to get a new ordinance passed. I think LA can be all the things you wish it was but it's the role of its citizens to make it happen, not law enforcement.
graciela responding to a comment by Girl Power
09.20.10 - 2:02 pm
One thing that's probably helped tremendously with police behavior in the past ten years is the ubiquitous photography/video equipment floating around now. The LAPD from ten years back almost certainly would've administered at least one illegal beatdown of a cyclist. However, now that beatdown would be on YouTube within minutes, local and national news in hours, and the offending officers would be suspended within a day or two. Smile, officers, and don't do anything you wouldn't want a few million people to see.
If I break a law and warrant a ticket... please just give me the ticket and let me be on my way. Don't try to make an example out of me and my friends to the rest of the people on the ride.
Also, I understand that the anti-cop sentiment is a strong one and one heavily influenced by your past actions, but every single one of you carries a gun and a baton with you. The odds of any of you seeing extreme injury or even death is nowhere near as high as what we the cyclists or every day citizens come across when interacting, whether lawfully or unlawfully, with LAPD.
I know that riders feel safer riding in groups and staying together...and thus running the red is a safety issue. You will hear no disagreement from me on this.
What the City is saying is get a permit, provide a route, and you are good to go.
We will not engage in group punsihment and cite a whole group of people for a red light violation if we did not personnaly observe the violation. By citing a few we hope that others seeing it may be deterred from committing the same violation. This strategy is not having the effect we had hioped for and will be re-evalutated...but it will most likely mean there will be more enforcement rather than none at all. UNLESS...you get a permit just like every other large event organizer has to do if they want a street closures!
Oh, and I'm sure one of the new tactics the police are using is contacting the "ralphs" in this instance and letting them know that if they feel unsafe for a number of reasons, that they can have the police do something about it - essentially shutting down/breaking up the ride.
I mean, I've seen on a couple of occasions businesses put an employee at the door to regulate how many people can be at the store at the same time, but it's very very rare when a business, especially one the size of Ralphs do something like this.
I see the LAPD is evolving... and as always, they move in the dark.
PS. I wouldn't be surprised if businesses on these bigger rides that seem to always include cops nowadays, started closing a lot more often because they didn't feel safe.
R@WKIT responding to a comment by graciela
09.20.10 - 2:21 pm
You are right on the money. We are law ENFORCEMENT" not law makers. In lay man's terms we play the hand we are dealt. If there is a law that says no party in the parks after a certain hour we assume that the politicians who enacted that law have the support of the larger community and as such the larger community wants the police to enforce that law.
If you disagree than by all means take it to the politicians and have the law changed or modified. Work within the system to achieve the desired change!
I haven't event read this thread past the first few messages but I will. If you guys want to talk crap about Sgt. Krumer, I suggest you meet him first. You are the reason we have trouble. I'm not defending LAPD or SMPD but Krumer's a good one so treat him with the respect you wish you could get from other officers. The man went out of his way to help me with LAPD and with a stupid driver. Do you want the ally or do you want to pout?
When you dump on someone trying to help us, YOU are the problem. Also, you're a fool.
I've seen the bouncer at the door thing too. So if the police are calling ahead (you never know, right?) then I think that's even more of a reason for ride organizers to reach out to those businesses so they don't feel like something fishy is going on. Especially if they plan on hanging out there for an extended amount of time. Let 'em know you've got a lot of business coming their way. Just a thought.
graciela responding to a comment by R@WKIT
09.20.10 - 3:30 pm
Ii see what he's saying as well and I've brought up this issue in the past.
sadly it fell on deaf ears/blind eyes.
party leaders should really take notice and push for this.
then the business can prepare accordingly.
July responding to a comment by graciela
09.20.10 - 3:35 pm
Some of my friends might disagree with my views, but I'm not afraid to admit it. I met Sgt. Krumer and I believe he is an asset for this cycling community. If someone has been involved in a hit and run or has had a crime committed against them, Krumer is a good resource for us to call upon. I thank him for his continued service in this capacity.
On the other hand, if any of you idiots want to incriminate yourselves by posting illegal activities on this site, then go ahead and do so. It is well known that there are police reading this site, and anything you say will be used against you if you are being stupid. Actually, never mind. I shouldn't have to care about or try to protect anyone who is going to be stupid. I only care that you may be giving midnight ridazz a bad name.
Yes, some cops have and may continue to abuse their authority upon us. That is something that we can address to people like Krumer in a productive and civil manner. If you want to call him names and stuff you guys are only pissing on your own means to a viable liaison towards the powers that can protect the cycling community.
If you want to send private letter to tell off the abusive officer meat-head on a ride, then you should get their badge numbers and file a complaint. Good things happen only by our own direct action within the system.
We should well know that if we want to keep the police in good favor with us, we need to continue to :
- Stay on the right and out of opposing traffic.
- Have a front light on your bike.
- Follow the rules of the road.
- Don't litter
- Don't condone tagging or stealing.
In all reality, these things may never be met by the group rides and it will only lead to the demise of our potential future of group riding and good relationship with the cops. I'm getting pessimistic about it all. Only because of the concept of a few bad apples make us all look bad. There's nothing we can do.
I celebrate and congratulate all the good efforts that Richie and organizers have tried to push for fun party rides. Unfortunately nothing good lasts and assholes will fuck it up for us because they don't give a damn.
And regards to the hanging out in parking lots issue. It depends on where you are, how tolerant the cops are in that juristiction, and how we are behaving in that area. If it is a public place, then that is a totally different situation. If people can't be chill and not light fireworks or throw trash all over the place, then you guys will be fine. In my experience, people at Crank Mob do not work that way. It seems all about doing whatever you want regardless of the outcome. I'm sort of wrong, but i'm also sort of right.
It's all a balance, especially when the police or overly concerned neighbors are watching us. We should be able to enjoy ourselves, but we need to have a common sense when things are going to go over the line. Just watch yourselves more and chew out those who don't make it easy. Maybe it's an age thing. I don't know.
Good luck and keep riding. Not everything I say may be completely correct.
Fuck it. It's all what you make it.
dot org
Joe Borfo responding to a comment by B-b-brian
09.20.10 - 4:03 pm
what is the proper way to follow up on a complaint?
i filed one once a couple of months back and was told that i would be contacted some time in the future.
thing is, it's been over 8 months and i've yet to hear any word.
how do i now that the cop who gave me the sheet to fill out didn't just throw it away once i left so that her buddy/co-worker didn't get a ding on his record?
July responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
09.20.10 - 4:11 pm
Hi, We were not in the Ralph's Parking lot, we were in the Ross parking lot. Ross was closed.
To address the issue of "fear mongering" which the LAPD creates and encourages I have a few alternative reactions to sceneraios.
1. A motorist calls to complain that cyclist taped thier car. Instead of flying to the scene at 70MPH in a squard car politey suggest that they simply take the tapping as the clycylsts letting them know that they are riding very close to thier car and remain stopped until the entire parade has passed...commen sense is truly UNcommon amongsty gun and bage toting GED highschool dropouts, so one must have patience....Drop out of high school, don't worry, just get a GED certificate and if McDonald's won't hire you then....the Los Angeles Police Department will. (!!!) Apalling.
You can't even get a job at Fed Ex delivering mail without a high school diploma...
2. The manager from Ralph's calls to say he "fears" cyclists will come in a shop lift alchohol. Instead of coming to his aid in riot gear aka "fear mongering", INSTEAD cheerily suggest that they set up a table on the outside of the storefront to sale beer and chips for cash only.
Or, only allow about ten people or so in the store at a time.
Or have the manager call in extra staff to make some overtime cashiering for the great party going on outside and helpoinjg out with clean up after. Ralph's missed an opportunity, if thier sharelholders knew how the manager reacted I bet they would want him fired.
I remeber hearing a story when I worked at Fed Ex putting myself through school, there was a blockage on a road in a rural area. The courrier did not call the dispater and say he "feared" he would have to turn back. He immediatly chartered a helecopter for $330.00 bucks to pick up his freight and get it to the airport on time. He was not asked, but he did it on his own inititaive.
The LAPD is not responsible to Ralph's poor managment.
My point is that the LAPD should not pander to fear or reinforce fear.
The Watts Riots was an "unruly mob", a party on wheels is a celebration. There is a huge difference.
Maybe the ride leader can get a permit and give the LAPD a map, but keep it a secret for the cyclists so they are still surprised. But that would not change the overrectivef attitude of the police in general. If one of them had taken the time to walk the crowd they would have seen that everyone was in a great mood, no one was hurting anyone.
That's not true, they should not be overreactive, that creates problems and actually makes their job more dangerous than it has to be. They need better training and a better staff of canidates to start off with.
I want to pass an innititave that reqires police officers to have four year degress. I'm going to start working on that a.s.a.p.
In fairness to Richie, since he put a lot of effort in Crankmas, and since I guess my posts might be perceived as being an ass, rather than asset to the community, let me try to construct a better post summary about my questions/ comments regarding the LAPD.
1. Krumer said, "some view riot gear as intimidating". My question was: Does Krumer think riot gear is intimidating?
2. Since Ralphs decided to close down, why did the police think it was important to make a bigger show in the parking lot? It seemed the problem was solved for Ralphs, right?
3. Why couldn't the police just relax and congregate in a less aggressive way, possibly somewhere else? What were they so afraid of, or why does name calling warrant this?
4. Considering Krumer is involved in the community, he is well aware we are not going to riot, attack the police, etc. why does he justify the need for riot gear?
5. I tried in a hopefully humorous way, to show how silly it seems that we would throw a bottles from across the street (lest we're quarterbacks) or present any real danger to the officers (unless grilled cheese is dangerous). The "nature" of Crankmob is not violent. (my alluding to their aggressive behavior is due to an incident I had with the cops in lot, but Im not going to elaborate on, because it wont help matters-- see Im not all that bad of an instigator).
6. I also wanted to know Krumers opinion on which parking lot "actually" presented a safer or more "common ground" engaging environment. Ralphs or Ross? Doesn't the answer say something to the "nature" of each group?
7. I suggested that police are not ticketing because they want to promote safety and harmony (or order), and it is reflected in the way they talk to riders. They would be better off helping escort the ride if they operate under the umbrella of safety and order.
8. If not anyone else, I think it is really disturbing that Krumer alluded to the idea that the officers showed tremendous restraint. I'll let you guys dwell on that (if anyone is listening).
(9. i also suggested that Krumer told us he has a big penis, but thats cool right?)
10. I think people need to keep this in mind. The mentality and problems associated with police officers in not something just the public encounters, but something some of their families encounter too. Its a shame, and it's was a way to note that this is not a singling out toward us, but a bigger problem that affects more people (even those they love).
Many of you are right to note that at least Krumer is trying to do something positive, whether we're cynical about it or not.
Not that everything I wrote has merit, hopefully you can see Im trying to make a point in a less than formal way. I have nothing against Krumer or his work in sense, but I think we need to really ask why the LAPD asserts itself as it does, when it does, regardless if someone says it was okay to do so.
Peace everyone, and I do truly apologize if any posts were a bad reflection on Crankmob, their organizers or other riders. Hopefully you can tell Im here to help, not just act silly or start trouble.
Our internal affairs line is 1-800-339-6868. You should be able to give them your name and they can look up and see its status. If you have a hard time just drop me an email...35128@lapd.lacity.org
You do not need a permit for a ride...only if you intend to roll through red lights and treat city streets as a closed course. If a group of 100 riders get together they do not need a permit...just follow the rules of the road.
No, you don't live in reality, most of your posts are a joke and all of my soloutions are perfectly practical. In fact, I've seen them done in the past where large grocery stores are concerened, and in cities and countries where large parties are a cultural norm, even if they are not on bicycles.
I think that is a wonderful idea. There are many reasons for the low requirement and it is a policy issue that you should pursue. Just keep in mind that many officers do have degrees or are working on them while they are on the job.
8. If not anyone else, I think it is really disturbing that Krumer alluded to the idea that the officers showed tremendous restraint. I'll let you guys dwell on that (if anyone is listening).
i too would love for this point to be addressed.
July responding to a comment by md2
09.20.10 - 4:42 pm
The reality is this is a new approach and obviously things are just sorting out. When LACM was escorted by LAPD in July, and we headed into Beverly Hills, LAPD stopped at the border. In this case, LAPD headed into Santa Monica and corked for CRANK MOB. This demonstrates a change in approach, as do other facets.
On the other hand, I think this particular squad of officers were likely novices = have they done this before? Even if they have, the whole idea of facilitating is new.
So it's a new thing and it's changing instance by instance, and even though we're always dealing with LAPD, in a department w/ 21 local divisions and nearly 10,000 sworn officers, you're not always dealing with the same people. I expect inconsistency in the way things are handled. I expect it to be a bit different each time, and I expect some officers to do things that don't make sense and are inconsistent with the actions of other officers. On the whole, I expect some hiccups. I'm more inclined to attribute some of those hiccups to the newness than to malicious intent.
People have been insanely hard on Richie, and I think it's not fair. Until you've been responsible for getting 500 people to head in the same direction all night, it's hard to understand the difficult decisions he has to make. It's tough and there are a lot of constraints on your decisions. If you really think you know better, I encourage you to try and fail. It reminds me of this XKCD:
Friday is LA Critical Mass. So maybe instead of berating each other ad nauseum, people can start thinking of how to approach LACM. Bikeside, the East Side Bike Club and others will be at Wilshire Western at 630 in order to meet and greet the riders, and to talk to them about remaining safe and riding together. Crossing the double yellow will be a focus, and having short but real conversations about LACM will be the other focus.
I remember in that not-so-great Russell Crowe movie Master and Commander there was an old grizzled sailor who had "HOLD FAST" tattooed across his knuckles. I think that's an appropriate slogan for us right now - we're all committed to riding, and many are committed to making this work, no matter how rough or smooth the ride. HOLD FAST!
So assuming that all the proper homework was done (permit applied for, route provided) what are the odds that the permit would actually be approved?
Claiming we just need to apply for permits and everything will be kosher seems like a really convenient way for the city to say "Sorry, denied" and shut down the ride before it even starts.
I agree. I hate to sound like a grizzled old dirt raver but if 50,000 people can self-regulate themselves at Burning Man I don't see why 2000 cyclists can't do the same. Richie and the few other organizers can only do so much but then it's up to the participants to behave relatively responsibly. With rare exception the BLM and sheriff's who are onsite at Burning Man are fairly hands off, many of them are veterans of Burning Man and you can tell.
Is it really a surprise this got shut down? The stop location was located right next to a residential neighborhood where bands were playing in the middle of the streets at 1130pm, people were setting off illegal fireworks, and stupid people were calling the cops "Pigs". Of course they shut us down! If the you guys learn to behave and pick locations that aren't in areas where its obviously effecting the surrounding area, then it won't be broken up. It's common sense here people.
And lets not forgot that the LAPD did block the entire ride for us. They regulated on people riding in unsafe ways, which is only to be expected. Yep, if you ride on the other side of the street or on the sidewalk when an entire directional road is being blocked open for you, you're gonna get a ticket!
Be grateful for the way in which they did work with us. Had they not been there, the ride itself would have been a lot less safe for all of us.
Actually Brett - the neighborhood in question is called Lincoln Place - and it's 100% empty. It's an old affordable housing project, and it was emptied out for demolition years ago. The tenants got together and sued the city for evicting them, and won. So eventually it will be repopulated (mostly by former tenants) and renovated.
Unless chipmunks and squirrels were complaining, that neighborhood didn't send in the complaints.
1. Riot gear is absolutely intimidating (as are guns)...but that does not mean it is unnecessary.
2. Ralphs decides to close...does not prevent someone vandalising the property or taking over their parking lot against their will.
3. Ralphs was an ideal place as it was large and was in close proximity so that if action was necessary they would be able to respond.
4. I know individuals in the cycling community but can not vouch for hundreds of people I never met.
5. The nature of Crankmob as an event may be non-violent...but you can not know the intentions of every individual there.
6. Depends on who you ask...a couple in their mid-50's walked up to us and asked the police what was going on...they did not ask the cyclists at Ross. Which group was more intimidating? I guess thats a matter of opinion.
7. Would love to increase safety and order...best accomplished by getting a permit and a route. I agree that officers need to remain professional during the citation and not lecture or talk down to cyclists as if they are children.
Fair enough, I wasn't aware of that, Alex. Now answer me this, where is the "knowledge" in setting off illegal fireworks in front of cops? Or calling them pigs? Did people really expect they were just gonna sit by and not do anything?
I'm not a cop and I don't think the cops needed the heavy riot gear they had on since it only seemed to intimidate people and make them act out more. I am however a responsible adult who would like to have more rides in this city and talking shit to cops and getting them to consider us an enemy isn't the proper way to do that.
Brett P. responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.20.10 - 5:21 pm
"Considering that we technically could have shut down the event at the very beginning or at the Ross parking lot…I appreciate that someone on this forum openly states that the officers (barring some individual incidents) showed a tremendous amount of restraints."
Such a typical fucking cop move - are you guys taught to use this tactic, because it's your favorite: intimidate with the extent of your power but then show how empathetic you are by only using some.
You know who else does that shit?
Wife beaters.
+1,000,000 @coldcut, to every post. This shit is ludicrous.
the sad reality is the following: those that are out on the ride causing problems, name calling (really? pig is just another word get over it), lighting up fireworks (i can see the danger in this one), tagging, stealing and anything else you want to throw in here, those people aren't even on this here message board.
there's no sense in going against each other on the forum as about 99.9% of the people who frequent this board are responsible human beings (adults and those that have yet to be recognized as adults by the rest of society) who do care about the well being of others and would love to see this thing we call Midnight Ridazz get bigger and better.
July responding to a comment by Brett P.
09.20.10 - 5:35 pm
Brett - you attribute the failures of route to the organizers and yet you are ignorant of the circumstances. You say that the choice of hood was a failure but you didn't know that the neighborhood was vacant.
Now you are attributing the use of fireworks and provocation of cops to the organizers? I hope not, because yet again you would be woefully ignorant of the facts.
Seriously - straighten out what it is that your moral outrage wants to say, and then say it, clearly.
If not anyone else, I think it is really disturbing that Krumer alluded to the idea that the officers showed tremendous restraint. I'll let you guys dwell on that (if anyone is listening).
I do find that statement disturbing. I just reflects how much more work has to be done to change police culture and how they interact with cyclists.
After leaving the ross parking lot, my group rode east on Pico from Santa Monica towards West LA. We were passed by a squad car that said over their speaker to "get off the road way" as they zoomed by. Since bikes are legally allowed on the road, and riding is illegal on the sideway in Santa Monica, it seemed that the officers might not be aware of laws as they pertain to bikes.
Jeremy responding to a comment by md2
09.20.10 - 6:22 pm
Riot gear is absolutely intimidating (as are guns)...but that does not mean it is unnecessary.
Here's one of the events that has shaped LAPD policy regarding riot gear.
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/20/local/me-helmet20
From the article:
"Each situation is different and requires a different response . . . common sense and humanity." -LAPD Deputy Chief Terry Hara
"You didn't have to march by police with weapons in your face. The LAPD reduced the number of officers visible at the rally sites. And the most heavily armed cops were placed out of view. It de-escalated things. It made people more secure by feeling they would not be harmed by expressing their 1st Amendment rights." -civil rights attorney Carol Sobel
Jeremy responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.20.10 - 6:29 pm
I am in no way blaming the organizers for the fireworks or provocation of the cops. I realize that they had nothing to do with either issues. I also admit to not knowing the neighborhood was vacant, so I apologize for the incorrect statement about the route planning being bad.
I am simply addressing the people on this forum who choose to ignore the fact that the riders are at least partially responsible for the way the situation was handled and want to find any reason to blame police for all of it. The majority of riders that were there were on good behavior, myself included, but those who weren't ruined it for everyone. So be mad at those people, not the police for enforcing the law.
Brett P. responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.20.10 - 6:56 pm
once you had a cop put his knee on the back of your neck, and push your face into the asphalt, while he pulled your arms behind your back over the simple fact that he was to ignorant to respond to a reasonable question...? let me see how you feel about the "warm and fuzzy" relationship with those assholes
One of the fundamental problems with the LAPD is that officers are not required to live in Los Angeles. Even the Chief lives in Walnut. As a result, they frequently can't relate to the communities they police and behave like an occupying force in Iraq or Afghanistan. Abroad there is a language barrier, but in LA there is a barrier of willful ignorance.
This is the reason why police think that a crowd of cyclists must be met with dozens of police in riot gear, their inability to differentiate between friend and foe. The LAPD is unable to appreciate what a tremendous benefit it is to public safety to have thousands of cyclists on the streets at night. We are demonstrating that LA is a safe place at night and the streets are for the public to enjoy instead of sitting at home getting fat in front of the TV.
There was never any justification for riot gear. The crowd never advanced towards the officers and stayed in one place hanging out. The officers never told the crowd to leave; the officers simply speculated that a riot might break out and it would be a good idea to prepare for battle. The yard at Folsom might spontaneously break into a riot, not cyclists in Santa Monica. Krumer attempts to explain this all away by saying in essence “we just enforce the laws,” bullshit! There are thousands of laws to enforce and a good cop has to decide which problems are the most pressing. This called exercising discretion & common sense.
Just think what good all of those officers could have done if they weren’t preparing to storm the Crank Mob! How many murders, robberies, rapes, burglaries etc. could have been prevented by having an extra two dozen officers on the street?
Instead of tackling real crime, like rousting gang members, they decided to look for a soft target on Saturday night. Police and politicians look for the quick victory that looks good for their PR campaigns, so that they can announce to the cameras “ We have completely eradicated the scourge of night time bike rides,” never mind that it was never a problem to begin with.
Don’t fall for Krumer’s canard re. just getting a permit and sharing your route. We all know that those permits will never be granted. Instead of having several rides a night, we’ll have one or two a year that cost $80 to enter and are sponsored by Philip Morris or one of the mayor’s campaign contributors. It’s a scam, just like concealed weapons permits in Los Angeles. Sure you can apply for one, but unless you’re politically connected, you’ll never get one. The idea of getting routes approved and permitted is very similar to the concept of “protest zones” that we have been seeing at political conventions. Sure you can protest, but you can protest a mile away from anyone who might ever see your protest. Welcome to the People’s Republic of China.
In all of my encounters with the LAPD, they have treated me with hostility and unprovoked aggression. For some reason they are trained to treat everyone like a bank robber. In addition they are generally unresponsive to the public and inept at best.
LA is full of gangs and the LAPD is biggest, baddest gang of them all. They are supposed to be our gang to keep all the other thugs in check, but any time you keep a dangerous animal like a pitbull for your own protection, there is a chance it may turn on you.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" Abraham Maslow
soulonice responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.20.10 - 7:13 pm
Let me elaborate on what I meant by "tremendous restraint."
At the park, officers could have gone in and cited/arrested those drinking alcohal and smoking pot. They could have gone in and enforced curfew and helmet laws for minors. If thatr park is subject to closure after sun down they could have caused you to leave. In essence they could have disrupted the event at the beginning enough to cause most of the folks to just leave prematurely and thus not have the cohesive element essential for the Crank Mob.
At the Ross, they could have again gone in and arrested for drinking and smoking, fireworks, curfew/helmet laes (for minors) and depending on what the posted signs read, evacuated the parking lot based on loitering laws. Again disrupted the "fun" enough to where people would leave on their own.
On the ride they could have cited more people.
Basically the police could have been a bigger "buzz kill." By allowing all of the above mentioned activities without interferring the police did show a tremendous amount of restraint.
I hope that clarifies my previous statement.
I in no way implied that restraint referred to going in "guns blazing and batons swinging" or engaging in a use of force.
As we all know, cops are cowards. They wouldn't have dared to enter the crowd without massive, massive numbers. Okay, so each cop would have made one arrest and went back to the station to write a report and that would have left another 1900 revelers in the park who were really pissed off.
That was really kumbaya of them to exercise "restraint" by not observing a shiny object somewhere in the crowd and just gunning us all down like Amadou Diallo.
soulonice responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.20.10 - 7:24 pm
Take a look at the official procedure for getting a permit for an event on city streets. This requires hundreds of bucks in fees and 45 days notice, not to mention $1,000,000 worth of insurance.
With all due respect, FUCK YOU! Pointing out what the police could have done? That is some childish bullshit!
We could have done many things to cause you guys many problems as well.
Grow up!
revolution responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.21.10 - 8:39 am
I've read all of this and you guys can all hate on me if you want but what Sargent Krumer said 7 posts above about what the police could have done is correct. On each ride where that stuff happens, everyone's always looking around if there's alcohol we yell 5-0, cops, etc.....nobody's mentioned any citations for drinking, pot, fireworks, loitering, etc. on crankmas...if so, i missed it here.
July said it well....99% of us on this forum are good people. We're lucky we can do what we do and have been doing it for over 6 1/2 years. Self policing works to an extent if people listen the first time....we can't chase down each kid or stupid adult and reason with them on why they should stay to the right side of the road. I've had some petty tickets issued to me and I've called the police when I need them.
take this into consideration....if a car club decided to parade all over the city and run reds and cork themselves, or the vespa groups, or kids just blatantly walking thru intersections, we'd be pissed....trust me, I'm on our side...i just consider what we do, when we do it, as being lucky it can be somewhat tolerated by the police.
if you guys can honestly say that not one person was capable of throwing a bottle at the police and ducking into the crowd and laughing with their friends about it, then you have your head up your ass....with 1000+ people there and not knowing anything about them, I'd do the same thing if i was in their position.
i watched an asshole with the fireworks consciously throw a pack of firecrackers directly under a riders' bike. it's that kind of person i don't want around...and that's the kind of person they're defending themselves against.
just curious as to know how and why LAPD had crossed into the city of Santa Monica and continued escorting, corking and enforcing C.V.C when it wasnt the city of Los Angeles...just curious.
i do appreciate the fact LAPD escorted and corked thru SM but wondering.. didnt SMPD trip?
arent there jurisdiction issues here?
Aktive_420 responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.21.10 - 10:41 am
Again, more action needs to be taken by ride leaders, not that Richie didn't do a good job, but again, we need to beat it into these kids heads right before the ride starts, what is good and bad behaviour and what will get the police to come and intervene.
To Sgt Krumer: The people on here who denigrate the LAPD, me included at times, do so in the field of discourse as afforded to us in our Bill of Rights. We're fighting the fight for those who don't know, don't care, or just will never understand. We're going to war for others who probably don't deserve it but who have an influence on the way your gang, the LAPD, interacts and reacts with the rest of us. All I'm asking is that the LAPD show some humanity towards riders.
I feel like we're fighting the same fight the X-MEN have been fighting since day 1: fighting for the sake of everyone, while people on both sides continually do shit to impede progress.
July responding to a comment by barleye
09.21.10 - 2:06 pm
Stop being so disrespectful to someone who you don't even know and is actually trying to help us out. Grow up and obtain some common sense.
@Sgt Krumer
It seems like tickets are mostly being issued for not having lights, (if police is corking the lights). So why not go around before the ride starts to check for lights instead of using dangerous tactics to tackle cyclists.
With corking, I think there needs to be a set rule that is told to us. Maybe if a cop car is in the middle of the intersection then we can run the light, but if the cop car is behind the stop line then the whole ride has to stop. But there needs to be a pattern that makes sense for a ride being so big. Maybe cork x amount lights and stop on one. I hope there will be more communication between cops so you guys are all on the same page.
Just like us, one bad cyclist can make a group look bad, but the same goes with cops. That is probably why there is so much hatred on this thread.
Bay to Breakers in San Francisco? Tons of police out and the parade continues. Halloween in Hollywood - police in riot gear on many a block - but does everyone freak out? Most people just go on with their fun--they don't go on doing increasingly illegal things in plain sight of the police and take opportunity to yell 'pigs,' middle fingers etc. Basic things like leaving one lane very open for the cars and not being a small contingency that runs red lights while drinking a beer, with no helmet, lights or brakes. This is why the ride is once a year--to keep the Saturnalia special.
Yes encounters with law enforcement involve a power dynamic--one that is oftentimes scary and may involve force. I think the dialogue efforts here are a great start. The first amendment middle fingers are getting old. The injuries, underage complete drunkenness and destructive element never had a place.
I appreciate Barleye's post a lot. I sympathize with a concerned public and police force as well as I sympathize with individual riders who are mistreated by individual police officers. Just because some cops are jerks does not give riders license to be jerks. Just because bicycles have a certain moral high ground over motor vehicles does not give riders license to litter, drink in public w/o license, and break whatever laws they want.
If the exact same ride went down without loud music, drinking in public, substance abuse in public, traffic violations, and littering en masse at every stop, among other things, maybe the cops wouldn't feel the need to show up in riot gear.
I mean, I like to have fun as much as the next guy, but if your idea of fun is to pack as much illegality as possible into 9 hours of public debauchery, what do you really expect? "I believe in anarchy" is not an answer to the question I just asked, if you read it carefully (and assuming you know what anarchy really is).
Sgt Krumer,
I thought I should clarify a point I made earlier. I was drawing a parallel between the punishments doled out to officers and citizens for the same crime, in this particular case, vehicular assault.
If a citizen intentionally assaults another citizen with a vehicle, it is attempted murder with a deadly weapon and can result in years of jail time and other repercussions. If a motor unit / police cruiser intentionally assaults a citizen as recourse against something as minor as a red light infraction, it may result in a reprimand. I would like to have just a reprimand the next time I commit vehicular assault with a deadly weapon, please! (Though I ride a bike so that won't be happening.)
I am trying to see this particular debate from both sides, but it might be wiser not to comment at all on the issue of unequal punishment of officers for crimes against civilians unless the department actually plans to seriously, honestly, and fairly address the use deadly force to enforce traffic violations.
Bringing the anarchy thing up again was stupid on my part. Apologies.
I should have said::
"I believe in the 1st Amendment" is not an excuse for drinking in public and running red lights, whether you believe these actions should be illegal or not. The laws already exist, and you are expected to follow them if and until they are changed.
I am sorry I did not see your parallel at the time...now that you have exlained it allow me to provide a better answer.
When a civilian passes by a motorist with too little clearance it is not considered an assault...unless a clear demonstration of intent to strike the cyclist can be shown, it is a traffic infraction subject to a small fine. I am in no way saying I agree with this, I am simply explaining how the law looks at it. If an officer drives his police vehicle into a cyclist with the intent to strike them they will be charged just like anyone else. An officer getting an official reprimand is actually being punished more than a civilian who commits the same traffic violation.
Another example is DUI. An officer who gets a DUI is punished much more severly than a civilian...if you get a DUI you have to deal with the legal consequences of your action. Officers have to deal with the legal and adminsitrative consequences of their actions (and they should). Very few people get into trouble at work for stuff they do out of the office...everything an officer does, on-duty or off, is considered.
I hope this time I answered your question...if not I will try again.
I understand that officers are *supposed* to be punished more severely than civilians for committing the same crimes, but that is not the case according to the news, other anecdotal evidence, my own experience, and even stories from police officers I know on the force. Officers are let off the hook as a matter of course because they have the backing of the entire police force and a city that all have to save face for the actions of someone representing them (and who don't want their power compromised, authority undermined, etc).
For example, what action do you suppose will be taken against the motor units that ran the cyclist into the curb on this ride just for running a red light? Riding alongside the cyclist and demanding that he pull over would have been sufficient, but they didn't even try that... they initiated physical contact without warning. I will bet you a month's pay the motor units involved will not be charged with vehicular assault.
I will concede that I have never seen an officer driving a squad car exhibit this behavior. It seems to be mostly within the realm of jackass hotrod showoff bike cops with egos to feed. Would you mind giving them a piece of my mind (since if I do it they will run me over with their bikes)?
I am not upset with policy, the policy is sound. I am upset with enforcement, which is lax or non-existent. I don't blame you for this, I blame your bosses! And of course the crummy officers that have no self-control. I am sorry you have to be the one to take the brunt of our frustration.
outerspace responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.21.10 - 4:36 pm
I'm wondering why one of the officers sent to babysit the ride gave us a hard time for riding on the sidewalk (when we took it to --sloooowly-- get around the numerous vehicles and officers blocking the road that seemed to be involved in the detention/arrest of a girl who had several officers piled on top of her and was screaming bloody murder . . . dunno what that was all about). Shouldn't the officers assigned to these rides be a little more well-versed in these things?
LAPD threatens to arrest cyclists after incident at Ralphs parking lot
September 22, 2010 | 6:13 pm
Los Angeles officials vowed to arrest and prosecute cyclists for incidents like the one Friday night in which hundreds of riders swarmed a Ralphs parking lot and broke out beer and marijuana, with some riding into the store and through the aisles.
Participants would be cited for violating traffic rules that endanger motorists or pedestrians, said Cmdr. Andy Smith. Those who engaged in violence would be immediately arrested.
The warning during a news conference at the downtown LAPD headquarters comes ahead of a mass ride scheduled for Friday and is aimed at protecting the rights not only of cyclists but also of those who share the roads and sidewalks with them.
LAPD officials have been trying to forge better relations with bike activists, even advocating department-wide training to highlight the rights of bicyclists on the road and ensure that officers know how to deal with incidents involving bikes.
The improved communications follow an incident in Hollywood in May in which a video appeared to show an officer kicking at a passing bicyclist during a protest ride against BP over the Gulf of Mexico oil spill.
The video footage, which was posted on YouTube with the title “Hollywood Cops Attack Bike Riders,” inflamed many bicycle activists, who complained about mistreatment at the hands of the LAPD.
Ramon Martinez of the Los Angeles County Bicycle Coalition said Wednesday that better communications have led to a reduction in tension with police as well as a better experience for cyclists.
"It's been increasingly positive in the last six months and is heading in the right direction," Martinez said.
Smith said Wednesday that it was important to remind participants in mass bike rides that they must obey the law and respect others' rights. Increasing numbers of cyclists appear to have been ignoring that warning during recent rides, he said.
Last Friday in Venice a group calling itself "crank mob" broke away from the main body of 600-800 riders and swarmed a Ralphs parking lot on Lincoln Boulevard.
During the impromptu party, deejays began playing music as some in the crowd began drinking beer and smoking marijuana, Smith said. About a half dozen broke off and rode into the store.
Three people were cited and a juvenile was arrested after allegedly hitting a police officer.
Smith said the warning was aimed at those who are failing to adhere to the spirit of the riders.
"We are here to ensure the safety of everyone," Smith said. "But there are those that don't listen to the organizers and they certainly don't listen to us. So our only aternative in this case is to stop them, cite them or make arrests."
-- Andrew Blankstein
soulonice responding to a comment by Team Creanberry
09.22.10 - 8:10 pm
How can you cite a traffic violation inside a building? Just found that part amusing. Is it cool to ride bikes into the Ralphs? I dunno, I think it's funny but probably not a good idea. Either way, traffic violation...?
I guess this has been a longstanding rule ever since I got kicked out of a Food4More up here after aggressively riding a loaded shopping cart through the produce aisle a few years back.
I thought it was a rush, but whomever stacked the Thousand Island dressing like a pyramid thought otherwise.
that is if the the cop that pulls the other cop over doesn't let him/her go or drive there car them them home or call them a cab. im sure cops look out for one another and some sort of "brotherhood" like ridazz do....as they should ... a fringe benifit of being a cop. im sorry sgt. krumer.... im not buying into it .... ive seen it to many times b4
Migcycle responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
09.23.10 - 1:57 pm
Sgt Krumcake is a liar, as most cops are. I talked with Ralphs management and they said that they didnt call the police. The police were observing the mass of riders in the lot and came to investigate. The police do not like the constitution, and the right to free assembly. They made up the whole event so they could act like they were doing somthing. THe only danger to the public that night was from police misconduct. The police were acting like a bunch of gang-bangers. Ya know? WHat do gang-bangers do? Drive around neighborhoods and cause problems. The LAPD is a disgrace to the constitution.
SHOTGUN MIKE 's Blurbs
About me:
Hello, My name is SHOTGUN MIKE and i sing for a band called DEATH VALLEY METH LAB. I am 6'2 and weigh 250.
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Just sayin ...
ChaosRR responding to a comment by shotgun_mike
09.23.10 - 2:09 pm
First off people are arrested left in right in Mardi Gras.
I would know I am from New Orleans.
Second they have parade permits they have legal documents that they have gotten giving them the right to do what they do. They ((the Mardi Gras krewes)) pay the police for their services.
I think the first thing that LAPD should do is that LAPD should set up a system for large rides.
Any ride that expects 1000 plus riders should have a parading permit. This permit should be free. This way the cops have advance warning and they give pedestrians advance warning. Also we should inform business that we are planning to stop in their parking lots.
Though ultimately I will say this.
If this was any other state than California. What goes on on most rides would have gotten everyone arrested. In most of the southern states where I originate from the simple fact that one person was doing hard drugs would have gotten everyone arrested for the safety of the public.
So in short STOPS SAYING FUCK THE POLICE or whatever AND GO FUCK YOURSELVES FOR BEING IDIOTS!
They are trying to work with us and we instead should be trying to come up with ideas on how to work with them.
DrMcFishy responding to a comment by Girl Power
09.23.10 - 2:17 pm
Fuck you ass. Some people get harassed by the cops when they're riding legally and behaving responsibly. Don't you fucking get that? Oh, that's right, you're one of the LAPD shill accounts on MR.com.
I get that people have had person experience with cops that lead to these conclusions, but I see it as a loosing position. No matter what you can do or say cops will always be in a position of authority and thus have the opportunity to abuse it. Does it make it right? of course not, but the whole "fuck the cops" discourse really does nothing.
Engaging the police seems to be a better tact to take.
But then again I don't find too many people that like the cut of my jib.
Foldie responding to a comment by toweliesbong
09.23.10 - 2:55 pm
in Northern European countries they've apparently found a different formula. That is, having more people on the force with less lethal means. what we have here in Los Angeles is a small force when measured per capita to the population. What this means is that the LESS cops there are, the MORE they have to act like bullies to "keep order." Compounding that problem is that the tax revenue generated in the densest (and poorest) areas is not there to support court systems and civil means of resolving disputes. Not only that the tax revenue is not there to support a quality educational system that would encourage the youth to feel like they have a stake in society and thus be less likely to commit crimes and collectively endure the wrath of a bullying police force.
What we need is more police with less lethal means hired from the community they serve with tax revenue spread more evenly from the richest areas to the brokest areas for better courts and education systems. heh. that aint gonna happen in the US son. we're just a bunch of near sighted greedy idiots in this country.
You do kind of see that model with the BID Safety patrols. People make fun of the purple people in DTLA, but they do serve a purpose. How effective it is is up to debate, but I feel like they contribute to my neighborhood.
Foldie responding to a comment by Roadblock
09.23.10 - 3:10 pm
and a bunch of self interested racists are in control in this system too. look at US foreign policy. We pour TRILLIONS into bombing brown people in broke countries. IRAQ? Afghanistan?? Viet Nam? the Middle East, see a pattern here? None of those countries stand a chance against our uber military spending.The last time the US went head to head against a military equal in power to ours was probably WW2... the rest of the time our troops have been commiting war crimes against broke brown people to get access to cheap brown labor in China, Asia and Africa and oil in brown countires across the Middle East.
you sure do. of course they are serving only the money part of town or the intended money part of town... likewise there are privatized fully armed guards supplementing the beverly hills area and so forth. We're completely fucked.
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