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I see people just sitting in their idling cars all the time and I always say, "I guess gas just isn't expensive enough for some people".
What I'd really like to see is for the tax on gas to be raised and the money used for mass transit, bike infrastructure and other "alternative" transportation.
"What I'd really like to see is for the tax on gas to be raised and the money used for mass transit, bike infrastructure and other "alternative" transportation."
Imagine if smart people on the lookout for the public good were in charge............. imagine.......................
From a macroeconomic view, I'm curious what will be the effect of the high gas prices on other parts of the economy such as food price increases due to higher transportation charges. Since transportation costs are interwoven into so many parts of our economy, I hope it doesn't end up with double digit inflation again. Added to this would be fuel costs associated with manufacturing, farming, and even home heating.
I'm just not feeling so sanguine about fuel costs going over $10 per barrel and the resultant decrease in motor vehicle traffic without the fear of other tremendous side effects to the econcomy.
^^^^ + 1. Although not the biggest factor, right now, high oil prices already has impacted the price of rice and other staples. Food riots in SE Asia, Bangladesh, Africa and Haiti are examples of the effects of higher fuel costs.
Good questions and good points mk4524. I'm all for this opening up people's eyes to more efficient transportation and alternatives like mass transit and bike commuting, but this is already having major inflationary impacts on everything else. It's bad news all around.
"Although not the biggest factor, right now, high oil prices already has impacted the price of rice and other staples. Food riots in SE Asia, Bangladesh, Africa and Haiti are examples of the effects of higher fuel costs."
Not to mention, an important factor for scarcity of rice is the high demand for biofuels.
Gas is extremely cheap in the U.S., and the cost of fuel for transportation is currently just a tiny part of the overall cost for most things we buy. The other day, I saw this interesting (albeit simplified) analysis of what it costs to ship a tomato from California to Maine. Even if fuel prices did rise to $10/gallon, the cost of shipping a half-pound tomato would go up less than a nickel.
Fossil fuels go into a lot more than just transportation, obviously, so a long-term increase in the price of oil will increase to costs of fertilizers, packaging, refrigeration, and all the other stuff that goes into moving food around. And of course, the increases that seem tiny to most of us in the U.S. are not so tiny to those living in Haiti or Bangladesh.
Gas should be more expensive here for lots of reasons, but I won't be jumping for joy when the price goes up. When we finally start seeing decent public transportation and bike paths in cities across the country, then hell yes, but that's a long way off.
Conversion of usable food crop for bio-fuel is a just plain horrible idea. One that all three of the lead candidates for president endorse at least to some extent. Arrrrrrrg!!!
I'd like to see decent public transportation and bike paths in cities too but there are those of us who do not live in large cities and the cost of a dedicated transportation infrastructure such as light rail is economically prohibitive, especially in the capital costs to build it and the operating costs of maintaining a lightly used but dedicated right of way.
I see public transportation really paying off when there is heavy population density. When I lived in New York City, I could see where the population density could support a mass transit system. But even being in a city with the highest population density in the nation, there were many long waits, especially late at night in stations in marginal neighborhoods for a subway to arrive.
I wish there were more of a public will to support the funding of an alternative transportation infrastructure but it still seems to be an uphill fight within the electorate. With rising gas prices, in the short term it appears that the political will is to lower the amount of fuel taxes rather than increasing it to fund transportation alternatives. Where I live, I watched a bond issue fail in the last election to fund alternative transportation among other transportation issues but at a cost of a half percent increase in sales tax. A less ambitious bond issue will appear in the next election.
I look forward to seeing $10 / gallon gas, as I stated before. Is it going to be disruptive and upset the status quo? You bet! Inefficient methods will fall by the way side. Supply and demand will still continue to rule the day, but with alot more of a thought going into energy use.
I believe it's 40% of the fossil fuel used is in personal transportation. With the price at $10 a gallon you'll see far fewer SUVs and more compacts, subcompacts, and minicompacts. This will leave far more room for all on the road. Less trips will leave more room for all too.
High gas prices will drive a need for public transportation. We all know there's hardly any public will for a good infrastructure right now.
It will be a painful transition, but look at the benefits. It just might save the earth from a catastrophic climate change. More than likely not though, we'll just convert to a dirtier fuel and keep burning fossil fuels.
Anyways it took us a long time to get to this point. It's going to take us a long time to back back down.
I hope farm production catches up with demand SOON so biofuels can be ethically produced, meaning without starving parts of the world. Scientifically it still makes better sense CO2-wise to burn fuel made photosynthetically from CO2 drawm from the atmosphere than from hydrocarbons drawn from the ground. Ww need to get there, but without starving poor nations. Perhaps a tax to correct the injustice is called for, until farm production catches up?
I hope the research in biofuels from cellulose pans out too. That, in addition to increased farming, will also decrease price pressure on food crops due to biofuel sales. Meantime, the capability to use biofuels at large scale will have been built will be ready for cellulose instead of (possibly cheaper) food grain sources, so perhaps a permanent tax on food-grain sourced biofuel to encourage cellulosic biofuel would be just.
Brazil's sugar cane biofuel program was a big bust versus gasoline prices for the first 10 years but not any more. They now have a carbon neutral fuel infrastructure, no war required, and it's all domestically produced (sugar cane needs a lot of water but Brazil has the Amazon). So getting from here to there takes investment, brains, natural resources and time to adapt. I think we have those things.
So let the price of gas go up, and when it starts to drop again, yeah, TAX IT a bit for public interest infrastructure and maybe also to relieve food cost injustice? Higher gas prices will reduce pressure on food crops even as it has other economic effects.
Economics isn't called 'the dismal science' for nothing.
Meantime I drive less and ride more, if not to the extent that many of you have. I have reduced my car miles from 12K /year to 6K/year by cycling. I am gradually seeing more people my age riding bikes in the West SFV. Two years ago on my commute I would see one other cyclist maybe once very 3 weeks. Last year, maybe 2 a week. This year 3 or more a day. Word is getting out, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DRIVE! You CAN RIDE A BIKE! While commuting or grocery-getting, I haven't gotten the "Why are you riding a bicycle [unspoken: when you could be driving a car]?" question from an open car window in a long time; that's a good sign.
Every time we ride instead of drive, we are part of the solution to these dismal national and global problems. I for one am proud to ride, not so to drive, though I still must to some extent. When I bike, I am decreasing price pressure on fuels. That should decrease the price pressure on foods, among other good things.
there should be a commute ride! It would definitely get me out of my car more often. It would probably get a lot more people out of their cars because riding alone in rush hour traffic is scary and seems safer with a group.
...theoretically it is awesome, but I do realize that it would definitely need major planning.
A few years ago, I recall reading about a study that found that people in industrialized nations would not significantly alter their driving habits until gas prices rose above about $10/gallon. I think they based this on the changes in gas usage when new taxes were implemented in the U.S. and Europe. If this is true, then it's a really stunning result. I mean, just think - driving a car is so important to people that tripling or quadrupling the price of fuel has almost no effect on their behavior. Of course, there's a point at which people do start making meaningful reductions in their consumption in response to higher prices, but it's above $10/gallon.
One of the main reasons that people don't respond to gas price increases is that gas is still pretty cheap compared to the overall cost of owning a car. If somebody buys a car new for $30,000, drives it for 10 years, then sells it for $5,000, they're already sinking $2,500/year. Even if they're more sensible and buy used (or just hang onto their old cars for longer), there's still maintenance and insurance to account for. I haven't driven my car in two months, but in that time, I've still paid something like $180 in insurance. I know I should ditch the cage. I'd probably have gotten rid of the thing already if I didn't need to use it for work this summer. Yeah, I know, excuses, excuses, it never ends...
Regarding taxes to combat climate change, the idea has been kicked around for a long time, and I think it's one of the better ways to deal with the problem (most of the good arguments for a tax are summarized in this editorial in the LA Times). In Canada, BC is already doing it, but the tax is kind of a toothless experiment at 2-8 cents/liter. In the U.S., the political tide seems to have shifted toward a cap-and-trade scheme, and it'll likely stay there, since everybody in American politics "knows" that TAXES=BAD. The irony is that the end result is the same - prices go up, and demand goes down. But the complexity of cap-and-trade allows for more loopholes, all of which the major emitters are poised to exploit.
There are those (mostly of the Republican think tank persuasion) who argue that the free market can beat climate change better than any tax or cap-and-trade regulations. This is one of those popular myths for the libertarian right (as opposed to the religious right, who for the most part now recognize climate change as a moral issue rather than a strictly economic one). The problem with the free marketeers' argument is that historically, when it comes to environmental problems, regulation has been one of the key drivers of innovation. I think this is really what the debate boils down to. We need prices to go up first, and once the pressure is on, then people will develop solutions. This is about more than just transportation infrastructure and tax revenues. There needs to be a shift in the way that society gets and uses its energy, and innovation isn't just magically going to happen.
And yes, hopefully amidst all the dismal economics and the techno-innovation, we can get more people to realize that there's already this two-legged, two-wheeled, carbon-neutral solution for getting from A to B, and it's more fun, to boot.
I look forward to this burrito-fueled transportation infrastructure of the future... BIOFUELS - IN YER MOUF!
Holy crap - that was a lecture and a half... Sorry for the brain dump, but I promise that all of that seemed relevant, at some point. Future posts will include more LOLspeak for ease of absorption...
I believe this is an issue that shouldn't be taken lightly, and that those talented and dedicated enough should tackle it with the applied force necessary.
I'm not going to list all the ideas floating around, as they've probably already been mentioned here, and/or talked 'til, "Blue in the Face", in other areas.
However, if hear anyone bitching about high fuel prices, or someone saying, "The economy's bouncing around and people are scared.", Those people will either be getting an elbow in the face, foot up the ass, or some ExLax-laced, cookies.
The incessant whining from average consumers, and "fake-sympathy" commentary from commentators is making my head spin.
I think I need to lie down, take an aspirin, then bomb down "Hospital Hill".
I advise fattening up now while food is still relatively cheap. Once Walmart can't afford to ship cheap shit from China any more because of the devalued US currency and the skyrocketing cost of oil-based transport things will get weird. French fries ftw.
Of course the answer doesn't only lie in biofuels but also in hydrogen and electric powered cars. It's no longer a time to just focus on one form of energy. Hopefully it doesn't come down to one type of fuel monopolizing the others. Furthermore, the bicycle must be implemented especially for shorter distances. The desire for a sprawling city has to change. Car culture has to change.
if IMF loans to poorer countries didn't come with the (structural readjustment) conditions that forced those countries that received the loans, to remove tariffs on imported food, which in turned allow those countries to be flooded with foreign crops (mainly from tax payer subsidized USA argo-corporation farmers) to the point that it was priced cheaper then domestically grown food. Which caused those poorer countrie's domestic farmers to go out of business, and now since there is little to none domestic food grown in those countries that received the loans (such as Haiti). The market price of the food is causing not so much a food shortage, but people not having the money (i.e.ability) to pay for the food.
If that never happened and every country had a secure domestic food crop, which could feed that countries population, based on their own economy.
Would countries be able to grow bio-mass foods for fuel consumption?
I heard Willie Nelson purpose that bio-mass be done on local level only. At local levels is the only way it could work, is what he claimed. Everything that is needed to burn for fuel in a certain region, be produced (grown) in that region.
I still think it is silly for people to think we are going to come up with some technology to support the life styles that we are lavished with right now, with alternative to hydro-carbon fuels. I don't see it happening.
One really good reason to force the price of gas up via taxation instead of waiting for market conditions to do it for us is so that we can create exemptions to the higher price for important contributors to the economy. If gas is taxed to $10/gallon (high enough to actually shift attitudes and garner infrastructure change), then we can offer an exemption to that tax for farmers, food transport, and public transport so that the high gas prices effect only personal transportation choices. If we wait until market conditions force us to $10/gallon gas, we will have to take the hit across the economy all at once and it will be far more painful and have far more catastrophic effects. Ideally we want to have shifted to a lower dependency on fossil fuels BEFORE we are forced to rather than having to suffer a period of time between prices going drastically upwards and our infrastructure adjusting to changed attitudes.
Yes. I think Biofuels could be used sustainably in some parts of the world.
But, for a country like the U.S. the amount of Biofuel we could produce - even if we were willing to accept mass starvation as part of the deal - would at best replace an extremely small portion of the energy we get from fossil fuels.
Alot of this was already debated on Trucking and fuel thread if anyone cares to revisit it.
For our future energy source personally I think it should be based on electricity and diesel. With both you can generate in from a wide variety of sources and you could even make it at home. All the other solutions seem to have a master/slave relationship. Much like fossil fuels are today.
BTW, there's no future in the hydrogen economy. If someone has a different take on it, I would love to hear it.
See, the problem here is that the real asshole drivers will probably still be driving (being the assholes they are, they're prone to 'fuck it, I'm still driving' behavior,) with the reduction mostly coming from *sensible* people.
So, I suppose we'll see fewer vehicles overall, with an increase in the percentage of Priuses (Priusi? Reminds me of the Lexus/Lexi dilemma.. Does Toyota have some sort of in-joke about these names that I don't know about?)
I pay 2 dollars a gallon for waste vegetable oil that a fellow rida harvests from local restaurants. Is this the answer for everyone. No. But I do suggest it for someone who is willing to be resourceful. It's an amazing moment when you drive past a gas station you used to give a ton of $ to and not be able to remember the last time you went there.
I must really be in hell if people everywhere I seem to go just continually, bitch about the price of high gas.
I'm being driven to the point of carrying around a microphone, and telling these poor, motherfuckers to shut their fat mouths.
I'm tired of hearing it, and tired of people who don't want to deal with it and, as that post above implies, subconsciously still do.
As for how to deal with it in the short-term;
-Get a little more trains on the tracks, literally.
-Encourage more people to live near said tracks, or near work.
-For rural areas, keep it all the same as it is now.
Because if some people want to live that lone-wolf lifestyle, then leave them be.
Only other good thing that would come out of continually-rising fuel costs is that my eardrums would be no longer ruptured by glass-pack, and FlowMaster/EFI-equipped, wannabe hot-rod trucks.
Especially those that like to gun it down Hesperia Rd at all hours of the day.
Bents, if you do it, do it like a reporter, say your from something something internet radio or whatever and interview them, it easy. If you got butterflys about doing it, talk to DJ chicken leather, he will show you how it is done.
As for preying, that no dumber then supporting someone on hope. Prey is how religious people hope.
I'm really curious to how much thought is given as to what is causing the high prices. There is so many different scenarios presented, with no way of know what is really causing the spike in prices.
Is it peak oil?
higher demand?
supply being brought down by conflict in Iraq?
supply being brought down by purposely closing down refineries for maintenance?
conflicts in Nigeria?
Cheney buying more oil for the Strategic Petroleum Reserves instead of releasing the oil to sell?
oil rich countries such as Saudi Arabia and Venezuela putting major amounts of money in oil future markets. Flooding those markets with so much money, making it a self fulfilling prophesy?
Oil being traded with the dollar and the shrinking value of the dollar?
(this one is far fetch, but food for though)t.....artificially driven up prices for the purpose to economically allow the process of "Coal hydrogenation" transforming coal to liquid gas?
Speaking of gas and taxes, have you guys been following the bull shit McCain proposed and Hilary has endorsed, to create a gas tax holiday in the summer.
This will accomplish nothing but increased profit for oil companies, and not actually save the consumer a dime, potentially even resulting in a price increase. Our oil refineries are working at capacity (my mom also happens to work at an oil refinery in Long Beach), so if price artificially is dropped that will increase demand, however supply cannot be increased to meet demand, therefore price goes up. The likely result will be gas that costs the same as it did before, but now all the money that was paying for our road infrastructure and public transit is now just increased profit for oil companies, that are already making record profits.
LOL I was reading the article regarding praying at the pumps, thinking I wish there was a video on this. And damn if there isn't!
Dave,
There's alot of things driving up the cost of gas. It's getting harder and more expensive to extract the oil. Refineries stretched to it's limit. And many other reasons such as conflicts and speculators. I think the two biggest reasons for high prices is that they can't get it out of the ground fast enough to take care of demand. Most of the new demand has come from China and India. We are now burning fossil fuels at the fastest rate ever. Exactly the wrong way we want to go.
Finally I wasn't leaning towards Obama's camp, but after this hoopla with the pandering for voters by toying with the gas tax, I have a new found respect for him.
I've been reading a book I highly recommend called "The Omnivores Dilemma". Among other things, it talks all about how the invention of man-made fertilizer from fossil fuel completely changed agriculture, allowing much higher yields. It takes about 2/3 a gallon of gasoline to produce a bushel of corn. So there's a correlation--a vicious circle you could say--between high fuel prices and high food prices. It's all linked in because it's all dependent on fossil fuels. So as world demand rises for both, prices go up for both. It's a scary world out there right now.
THE EVIL CARTOPIAN EMPIRE THINKS IN THE ABSOLUTE THAT IS WHY THEY ARE CORRUPT AND EVIL. As for me, im neither jedi nor sith im somewhere in between and i only think in the absolute when in danger or when the protection of others and our cause is called for. Other than that Im a reformed sith and humble pupil of the forces ways, especially the bikeside of the force. it is not a pipedream we too have to be absolute about it. LET'S MAKE IT HAPPEN. Alas we shall have our REVENGE.
Well, China and India have most likely been influenced by the past 50-60 years of American culture.
Seeing as how cars have been the biggest part of it, there's no wonder they've been building like mad.
The feedback is kind of interesting to read to. Such as this one;
I was living in Switzerland for 3 years, the cost was around $6 a gallon changing litres into gallons and swiss francs into dollars. I was in London a couple months ago.. it was costing me around $9 a gallon.. Its not fiction, its reality. Most of europe (all that i've been to) pay more for gasoline than americans do. It just doesnt affect them as much, primarily due to public transportation and more efficient vehicles / bicycles. I purchased a bicycle when I moved to switzerland. After a month of driving, I switched to a bicylce. I was doing many things besides saving money on gas. I was in great shape, lowered health risks, got a good exercise, saved money, easier to park among other things. Obviously if you live in san diego and commute to los angeles, a bicycle isnt an option.. however trains are. Motorscooters / smaller cars those are two great tools to alleviate the cost at the pump.
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Ridazz Roulette!
Wow.
See, the problem here is that the real asshole drivers will probably still be driving (being the assholes they are, they're prone to 'fuck it, I'm still driving' behavior,) with the reduction mostly coming from *sensible* people.
