NOTE: All timestamps are in the future because WE are in the future. The care takers of Midnight Ridazz.com reserves the right to remove, edit, move or delete anything for any reason. None of the opinions expressed on these boards represent the Midnight Ridazz nor can anyone purport to speak on behalf of Midnight Ridazz.
I sent this response to the Times on the story....
"Thanks as always for considering cleaner methods of transport, but I find it a disappointment that it takes a heavy, expensive and battery assisted bike to get the words "pedalling" and "eco-commute" into one headline.
Highlighting that Frankenstein bike only serves to perpetuate the myth that it is difficult to commute in Los Angeles with a regular bike. For most Angelenos with a commute under six or eight miles, a well-maintained road bike is a very practical option in this city thanks to its lack of hills and near constant sunshine. With just a baseline bike fitness, you don't even have to break a sweat and can still roll smugly by the standstill car traffic. "
That's my personal opinion. But is there actually a place for battery bikes?
I've heard that there is a big e-bike boom in China right now to the the point that they are being outlawed in some municipalities (against chinese federal law).
Sure most cyclisits who truly love pedaling and the sweat and the burn and the hustle, will find eBikes top be a bit goofy and unnecessary. But I could also see a situation where the ebike gets LOTS more people on a bike and on the road. And frankly I would much much much rather share the road with an eBike than a car.
After checking out a lot of different HPVs is did occur to me that hybrid HPV/EVs might be a great soloution for long distance, load bearing transportation for the weak, weak-willed, or those that just dont want to arrive sweaty, tired, wet, or dissheveled.
Don't get me wrong I love practical riding it always my first chioce as a mode of travel. But the evolution of HPV/EV hybrids can only be good for those of us who love to fuel up on burritos and beer rather than petrol.
I couldn't disagree more about the premise that there's no place for ebikes in LA.
The problem should be what kind of ebikes should we be behind, not if we should. Unfortunately one of the best bikes ever release, was a Curry Bike that is no longer made. They used a regular bike off the shelve with a modified hub, a VERY reliable motor. The motor is called the "can" motor. http://www.wisechat.com/carl/e-wedgie.htm by picking the right bike, batteries, and this motor setup, you could get a bike under 50 pounds. This would be manageable for professionals that can't/won't get themselves sweaty, older people that don't have the stamina to maintain a pace of 18-20 mph for 10-15 miles, and plan lazy ass people that don't want to exercise. I might add, it comes in as a great replacement if you're hungover too!
The author in the movie above plus Patrick has made the points already made, so no need to restate that.
So if done correctly, ebikes would mesh in perfectly with the bikes that are already out there. Using the same bikes already used for pedal power with very little modifications. All at a fraction of the price of the bike mentioned at the beginning of this thread. There's no need to "reinvent the wheel", no need to build from the ground up a bike made for electric power. This will also be the case further in the future too. As we'll be seeing batteries that are lighter on the environment, lighter to carry, last longer than batteries of today, and run longer with more capacity than what is available too.
Why bikers are not behind ebikes is a mystery to me, and I'm all ears if you care to explain.
Sorry, I must stick with my mantra.
If I must have two-wheels and a motor, then a Hog will suit that purpose rightfully.
Anything else, get on the metal and keep spinning.
bentstrider-
If I must have two-wheels and a motor, then a Hog will suit that purpose rightfully.
Me -
Actually a "Hog" gets worst gas mileage than a car that seats four people. A Hog you can't get on the light rail. A Hog you can't get on the bus bike rack. I guess out in the desert, the Hog would get you from point A to point B faster than a ebike or bike.
ubrayj02-
Why not just have an electric motorcycle and call it a day?
Me-
Well the original post on this was if ebikes played a part in most people's commute of less than 10 miles. An electric motorcycle is not needed for commutes of less than 10 miles. Plus you can't get a electric motorcycle on the light rail or on the bus. It would be nice to think you would be set with an electric motorcycle, but it just gets you a little longer range and get you there a little faster. Here in the LA area, I would take a good quality ebike over an electric motorcycle for commuting.
I don't know what this thread is about, but by reading ONLY USER1 and Ubray's post. I would rather opt for the rickshaw being operated by Ubray02, while he wears nothing but some cycling shorts. HOT DAM!
Common Sexy ... the damn thread is only 17 posts long.
Now 18.
We are talking about eBikes. Those can also be ridden in spandex. And don't require hiring sombody else to drive you. (as wonderful as Rickshaw Bikes).
As always ... I'd prefer "All of the Above".
The more transportation options the better.
With rare exception I don't think we are talking about avid cyclists switching from bikes to eBikes. We are talking about people gettig out of cars and busses and onto electricy assisted bikes. And to me thats a big step up.
If you wanna make your environemntal statement on a Harley ... go for it. But I think there is a lot of options between bicycle and motorcycle that will apply to many people for different reasons.
I look forward to seeing those options expand and beome more popular as people get more and more tired with dealing with shitty traffic, shitty gas prices, and of course wars for oil.
WHo cares about Ebike, when you can have Ubray02 rage against the machine, while carrying you around in a rickshaw bicycle, while one wearings spandex shorts. HOOOT HOOOT.
I guess I just don't see your average car driver being swayed by this. They don't ride not because it's hard but because they think it's dangerous and declasse. eBikes don't really address those two things at all.
I'm all for alternative options that will get people out of their car, so the whole backlash against electric bikes as being the lazy way is just a buncha hogwarsh.
My main beef with the model featured in this article is the price. At $3000 that just seems ridiculous. $1500, maybe. but $3K. Hell nay.
I realize we aren't all Eddy Merckx or Sean Kelly, or even close. But really, cycling is not _that hard_, especially if you live in a flat area and ride to a flat area, which describes most people in L.A.
When I say "lazy" I'm talking about all the people who live in Beverly Hills and Hancock Park and all the other expensive flatter areas of L.A. who think nothing about getting in their cars to drive two miles to go shopping or to the gym. The world would change if we could get their lazy self-conscious asses to ride to Whole Foods with panniers instead. Especially on a nice day like this.
I agree to get off our collective butts and ride a bike, but I'm trying to address the others that would not do it. It's already been pointed out above, the elderly, the weak, the professional, etc etc. I guess if you were to consider these people, you would rather have them call a cab or drive or what? I would rather have them joining us on the streets on two wheels.
Yeah there will always be a percentage of people that will not ride because it is perceived as dangerous, no matter if they have to exert energy or not. The only thing that may change their minds is more riders on the road, and one way to do this to embrace ebikes.
The cost I have already addressed. You could easily convert a regular bike, no need to reinvent the wheel. And you could easily have a bike that weighs less than 50 pounds. I have a 20 pound bike and with a battery pack like in the link I posted above, could make an ebike that would be in the 40-45 pound range. This can be done at a small fraction of the $3k price.
Yeah the price of that bike is outsandingly stupid.
I saw this dude at walgreens with an eBike that he built for maybe $150-$200 + bike. He had a 10 mile range, could pedal as much or as little as he liked and could get up to 25 mph super quick.
the 3k eBike isn't gonna do shit for people.
Chinese labor practices aside ... I'm sure eBikes could be inported from china from the $200-$400 range ... easy.
The problem is the quality from China is all over the board. Most buyers are not that savvy either. So you have buyers buying crap and being turned off to the whole scene. China will eventually build stuff that people will go nuts over, it's just not going to happen in 5 years or less.
What would push more consumers to ebikes also would be traffic grid lock and the high price of gas. I failed to mention that previously.
The other thing I don't like about this particular bike, from strictly an engineering and not a social point of view, is that it's too complex and heavy. If something breaks you probably can't fix it yourself and you're stuck with a 60-pound bike and will probably swear off cycling.
Have you guys seen the Stokemonkey? It appears to be better engineered by people who actually ride bikes:
Here is a picture of the Bak from last night, when I was trying to assemble it.
The ride in to work was pretty chill, and not any harder than riding a beach cruiser. Except this thing weighs 100 lbs, and is the most awesome baby carrying device I've every used.
The liability concerns you are referring to is ONE incident with a controller of theirs. Does one incident make a faulty product? Not in my book.
If you take your time and read through their postings, you'll see demand is high and they have a good product. I haven't heard any complaints about the etek motor they are using for example. Granted I've been out of the loop for a couple of years now, but the real break through people are waiting for is batteries. They are out there, just not cheap.
And yes you can find dubious companies, even that company I have my motor from has VERY poor customer service. Again I'm referring to what I know two years ago.
Unfortunately a LARGE portion of the population doesn't have the legs you have. What you maybe able to do, is a far cry from what most, 90% or better, of the population can do. But that same 90% can push a switch!
Sorry to shit talk. I'm just excited about this bakfiet. I think it's the first one in L.A. (but I'm not sure).
Clever Cycles (in Portland) has a lot of bike stuff that can fill in the gaps for people trying to do more than just move their body around town on a bicycle.
THe stoke money is cool.
I like their XtraCyles bike frames (no add-on Xtracycle rear fork).
@user1
By "Hog", I didn't mean something like an 1100cc, ElectraGlide.
I honestly don't own anything with a motor on it at this time.
But, if I am going to get something, I'm torn between some simple things like either the Sportster 880, or a 650cc-equipped, dual-sport.
To be frank though, I mainly don't own a car due to myself not wanting to pay for insurance.
If that is required just to keep the car/motorcycle drydocked, 25 out of 31 days of every month, then I see it as a form of
uber-socialism.
Back when I used to own my Bronco, I once inquired about "daily-insurance", and most people looked at me like I was hitting the crack-pipe!!
Being out in the desert, a 650 dual-sport would be cool.
Even on the road, these bikes surprisingly don't get as good of gas mileage as one would expect. If you see one that gets better than 40 mpg, I would like to see it.
Awesome that you are getting by with no motor power seeing that you live out in the desert. So you make the rides down here when you have your rig in town I assume?
@user1
You seriously think there aren't any motorcycles out there getting better mileage than a small car?
I'll have to dig deeper for that one, I always thought that 650's and under got at least 45 mpg, standard.
As far as getting from up here, down to all the cool-happenings in the basin, I have to repeat.
I was fired from Swift back in October after that accident I had in Utah. So, you won't be seeing me in a rig until further notice.
As for now, I'm renting cars or giving friends, younger brother fuel money to get my ass down there.
But, this coming year, that shit's going to change.
Do some research on what can be expected for most motorcycles in regards to the MPG. To get 40 mpg or better, you would have to start riding something in the 500cc or smaller. Let me know if you find anything different. I haven't looked in about 3 years, but there also hasn't been any ground breaking design break throughs either.
Unfortunately a LARGE portion of the population doesn't have the legs you have. What you maybe able to do, is a far cry from what most, 90% or better, of the population can do. But that same 90% can push a switch!
User1
12.21.07 - 8:37 pm
And most of us didnt have those kind of legs before we got rid of our cars either...
the wonderful thing about riding a bike, the more you do it, the easier it gets.
I remember when I first started riding in LA it seemed huge, now the beach seems like like little more than a brisk ride. Sure not everyone could start off pushing a 100 pound beast like that bucket joseph is pictured with, or the B(ike)BQ, or one of those pedicabs, but pretty much anyone can push a decent 20-25 lb bike (which can be had for a reasonable price, even the big box store road bikes are in this weight range, so are most old road bikes on craigslist that go for less than a hundo), anyone can pedal a bike that weighs that much. As for the whole bs about "professional people" , the thing is, most people's commute isnt enough to get them sweaty anyway, and no matter, even if it was, as cycling becomes more and more common, a little bit of sweat isnt going to matter, I mean, look at all those european cities where you always see pictures of people in business attire riding to and from work, they don't seem to have a problem. Besides, many larger businesses have showers, or shower facilities available.
To me an eBike seems like an excuse. It still uses some sort of external energy, which to be honest in this country is probably from a nonrenewable resource, it's heavy and cumbersome, even a 50 lb bike is too heavy in many areas (maybe not LA but in plenty of cities), even for a competent cyclist, and besides, the more parts a bike has the more parts it has to break. and if the battery dies (say you forgot to charge it), or the motor goes out, you're stuck luggig 25lbs of crap you don't need, and what then, your legs which you've been not using due to enjoying the effortlessness of humming along on an electric motor won't be able to push said 50 lb bike.
My opinions is, get off your ass and pedal, quit trying to reinvent something that is, in it's pedaled form, the most efficient form of transportation ever invented by mankind, something an E bike will never come close to.
I see your point there.
I usually speak to dealers and actual owners who use their rides everyday, and they claim those 40mpg and over numbers, to the teeth.
I guess the debunking for the private owners could be that their math is way off.
The line from the dealer could be a sales pitch to get them a commission.
Either way, I need something with power to get me going down the freeway.
Not to mention I also factor in the weight of a motorcycle, compared to a car.
The lighter the vehicle, the lesser the issues on my mind regarding the "wear and tear" of the road.
Fuzz -
My opinions is, get off your ass and pedal, quit trying to reinvent something that is, in it's pedaled form, the most efficient form of transportation ever invented by mankind, something an E bike will never come close to.
Me -
This so far hasn't been the case has it? No one is really getting off their asses and pedaling, at least not in numbers that we should see. We should have, because of our weather, numbers larger than any European city, but we don't.
The human powered bike is more efficient than an electric powered bike? I would like to see the numbers crunched on that one. Over 3/4 of the energy we intake is wasted in heat and getting rid of heat from our bodies. Contrast that with the whole electric system being at worst 90% efficient.
I would like to see a good study comparing these two systems. I haven't seen one yet, I'll post something if I find it. As of now, I would say the verdict is still out.
there's a couple things in this thread, however, it's not the exact stat I was looking for
this one is closer
http://www.exploratorium.edu/cycling/humanpower1.html
per calorie basis, i doubt an electric motor bests 35 k-calories burned per mile, particularly when factoring in the energy that has to be burned to generate the energy stored in a battery, as well as factoring the energy required to make, transport, charge, and dispose of batteries, motors, and other extraneous materials needed for an e-motor.
and this:
http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et1199/et1199s13.html
contains an argument for internal hub gears, single speeds or fixed gears as opposed to deraileur drivetrains in it's section about chain tension
Not trying to hijack guys, but I remember quite a few people clowning on steam locomotives.
Inefficient in so many ways, yet very simplistic at the same time.
Hell, in a way, they saved some energy due to the fact that some steam loco's, like the Union Pacific's "Big Boy", burned fuel in its raw form.
No liquid fuel required to break a heavy oil, down into a lighter form, or however it goes.
Either a muscle-head, lumberjack chopped down a tree with an axe, or a bunch of people shoveled it in a coal mine.
Yes, the obvious pollution is a problem, but still, that's simple power right there.
In my opinion it doesn't really matter which is better or which is more efficient.
I ride a bike because I like a bike. Others ride eBikes because they appeal to their needs.
I consider myself to be a total evangilist for cycling it has changed my life and made me so much happier, that I tend to share that joy with whomever I meet. But, sometimes, I talk to people, and for a varity of reasons they just arn't interested. Others I have met are on the fence and I know that there is literally 10s of thousands of people in LA for whom a good inexpensive eBike could be a gateway drug into the world of cyclcing.
I am very fortunate that my typical commute is 5 miles along sunest blvd. I have the luxury of showing up at work on a hot day all sweaty and taking off my tee shirt and wiping myself down.
Most people don't work in such as casual envirnment. Most people DO commute over 5 miles. Most job places DO NOT have showers. Most empoyers could give a fuck if you are saving the world, they want an employee there on time and to be presntable.
Yes in Europe and Asia there are amazing rates of cycling but this is a culture that developed over several years if not decades. In LA it is going to take a major cultural shift to get more people on the road.
Those of us who are dedicated to riding know this is a must for our planet, for our culture, for a bodies. More ridazz will mean safer riding for all of us.
I'm am dedicated to that goal by any means necessary. If it means getting people on eBikes to get them out of their cars so be it.
.............
Yes eBikes do work off the grid but I think an honest assement of the carbon footprint of an eBike vs. any other form of motorized transportation I think the eBike wins hands down. (the article sited above claimed it cost .10 to charge the bike for a 30-60 mile ride).
I don't think the eBike is the answer to all of our problems. but I do think it is a solution that we should be celebrating and supporting.
eBikes will eventually mean more people riding bicycles not less.
It doesn't matter though. As more and more of us take to the streets and as battery technology continues to improve will see a masisve increase in the use of eBikes. If the recent trends in China are any indication (5-10 fold increase in the use of eBike in about the last 5 or 6 years) we will be seeing lots of old fat people zipping by us on eBikes in the years to come. It is only a matter of time.
It isn't that hard to find bikes, even with fairly sizable motors, which can get you between 40 and 50mpg, especially if you go easy with the loud handle. Many of the touring and sport touring bikes will get you around 40mpg if you are cruising at 70 or less and not getting hard on the throttle every time you accelerate from a stop. That said, even a motorcycle getting 50mpg is still WAY worse for the environment than any car made in the last decade. Motorcycles aren't held to nearly the same standards that cars are when it comes to the crap that is allowed to come out the exhaust. Very few motorcycles, espeically in used model, even if only a year or two old, have any kind of catalytic converter. You'll pay less in fuel costs on a bike, but you'll actually be kinder to the atmosphere in a car that gets half as many miles per gallon.
Another thing to bear in mind is that most bikes have a tank range of 150 miles or less. Some touring bikes will get you 250-300, but they are few and far between. So distance riding by bike isn't really any quicker than a car. On any trip of 300-500 miles, I find myself passing the same cars over and over again as I have to keep stopping for gas while they don't. This is particularly true in the desert southwest, where gas stops can be far apart, so you have to gas up pre-emptively, well before you actually need it, just to make the next 90 mile stretch without gas. If you love the ride, it isn't such a big deal, but I don't konw anyone who claims to love the long stretches on I-8, I-10, or I-15 that are necessary to get anywhere east of the Mojave Desert. - at least not after their first year as a motorcyclist.
@ideasculptor
As far as the environmental issue goes, I'm not as hardcore about it as everyone else thinks I should be.
Yes, the air needs to get cleaner and Global Warming does exist.
But, the fact of the matter is, I honestly don't feel inclined to get a vehicle with a technologically-complicated engine, just to satisfy a few tree-huggers(no offense to anyone of that description).
Not to mention all this debating and reasoning to why emissions should be reduced, yet no one still cares.
I feel the environmental movement is somewhat of a lost-cause.
Around longer than I've been alive, yet all the inciteful words fall on deaf ears.
As far as the fuel fill-up goes, I only intend to use the motorcycle for 50-200 mile trips anyway.
I'll save the "out-of-state" trips for the bigrig job, should I ever get into it again.
Anywho, don't think I'm some "Right-Wingnut" from the passage above.
I just think that this Earth won't be environmentally-sound until people start croaking.
That's my pessimistic take on it, anyway.
Fuzz -
per calorie basis, i doubt an electric motor bests 35 k-calories burned per mile, particularly when factoring in the energy that has to be burned to generate the energy stored in a battery, as well as factoring the energy required to make, transport, charge, and dispose of batteries, motors, and other extraneous materials needed for an e-motor.
oh, and that energy being burned for heating the body is STILL being burned when you're using an electric motor, so why not put it to use?
Me -
None of the links above address the efficiency of pedal power vs electric power. I'll see what I can find on it. Yes there's energy considerations for building motors, batteries, etc etc, but there's also energy considerations with a bicycle too. After all where did your bike come from? How bout the parts? How did it get here to the US?
The energy being burned is not at the same rate between a sedentary person and a bike rider. They both have the same base line, but obviously they end quite differently. And this energy that is being wasted as heat, doesn't get applied as mechanical motion as you may be implying above. The wasted heat energy is part of the metabolic process of the person. The energy used for motion is around 20%. The rest of the 80% is wasted heat and maintaining the body functions.
I proposed a solution to getting more people on bikes and the view that we should embrace ebikes. I've stated the ebikes I think should be encouraged to be marketed. I've stated a possibility to get alot of riders on the road. I take it your position is, suck it up and ride a regular bike for the 90-95% of the people out there? What have we been doing all these years? We're not even close to the our glory days of years gone by. How do you purpose on seeing just 25% of the population on bikes? How do I get my parents to take a bike instead of the car?
My sister just got an E Bike and I think it was a great choice for her. She has a heart condition and it's a pretty steady incline back from the store. She's hoping to slowly build up the cardio to do it under her own steam. It's getting her out of the car so...... Even if it is a Prius.
You're right in regards to the emissions of motorcycles. It's hard to find any information in regards to this. There was one example that compared a Prius to a new motorcycle. The author happens to be a bicycle rider, therefore I believe this just made it to being on topic on this board. It's a bit dated but probably still relevant, http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=260
There's also this article I found, http://greenmesh.com/2007/11/paperbased_motorcycle_catalyti.php
It's rather difficult finding any info that isn't terribly slanted, ie from a biker proponent site. I was always under the impression that the numbers were closer than what is reported above. I never believed that motorcycles were cleaner, just not as dirty as these articles state.
Throwing in my two cents. I'm generally for the idea of anything that promotes personal transit minus the car, and maybe this particular thing isn't the greatest, but is part of the evolution of this idea. I personally believe almost anyone is capable of fully human powered transit and has far more potential then they realize. This cannot be realized however without mental will power, which some people lack. If electric assist vehicles gets some people out of cars, then I feel it's at least a step in the right direction.
As to the efficiency issue, finding solid comparative numbers seems difficult, but I find it highly unlikely that e-bikes are more efficient, when considering the supply chain for electric power. Besides the burning process which generates excess heat and exhaust, used in most of electric generation, as much as 40% of the power that does get generated is lost due to traveling large distances over cheap cabling to get from power plant to home.
Granted, additional carbon output is necessary to feed the additional calories a cyclist consumes versus an inactive person. However I doubt that the additional output for food puts it over the output to generating electric power and maintaining batteries, and not to mention the additional power burned to carry the weight of what is much heavier bike.
That being said though, efficiency thing is really more a splitting hairs to this issue anyways, both of these transit options are obviously more efficient then a car by far. The average person will care little about small differences of efficiency between human power and electric power.
Didn't mean to suggest only mental will power is necessary to get started bike commuting. As was pointed out, some who have physical conditions which make 100% human powered transit very difficult to achieve, can make great use of an electric assist.
I too find it disheartening when just plain old good human powered pedaling gets left out of eco transit discussions, but I don't think smack talking electric assist bikes altogether is helpful either. I think context is also important here as well. A Segway to help move a person who has trouble otherwise, is a great way to extend mobility unassisted. A Segway to carry teenage kids in great health that are too lazy to walk or bike down the beach path, is just sad and lame.
"A Segway to carry teenage kids in great health that are too lazy to walk or bike down the beach path, is just sad and lame."
-garyseven
They also make wonderful, sidekicking targets when riding down the beach.
Now a radio-controlled one to carry goodies only, would serve some real purpose.
-->
Ridazz Roulette!
I couldn't disagree more about the premise that there's no place for ebikes in LA.
Aw weaksuce Vu. Go with yer GUT! 
Fuck all that!
Here is a picture of the Bak from last night, when I was trying to assemble it.
Not trying to hijack guys, but I remember quite a few people clowning on steam locomotives.