SMCM FTW 2
Thread started by
skd at 12.21.07 - 7:36 am
Something is wrong with the other thread. So I am starting a new one.
Here is a posting from SoapBoxLA that didn't make it.
for Alex:
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 19, 2007, page 5
"A share of the road
The crackdown on Santa Monica
Critical Mass bike riders continues by
Santa Monica police. Bicyclists claim they
are being unfairly targeted; the police contend
the riders should get a permit if they
are going to clog up city streets every
first Friday of the month.
"So this week’s Q-Line question asks:
Are Critical Mass riders flouting the
city’s laws or should the police work with
them to help promote bicycling in the city?
Call (310) 285-8106 before Friday at 5
p.m. and we’ll print your answers in the
weekend edition of the Daily Press. Please
limit responses to a minute or less."
SoapBoxLA
reply
Ive heard so much stuff about the SMCM that I will never ride there ever!
funanu12.21.07 - 9:15 am
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"Are Critical Mass riders flouting the city’s laws or should the police work with them to help promote bicycling in the city?"
Me-
The premise of the question is flawed and leads to a false conclusion either way you answer this. I am not riding according to SM laws simply because they don't apply. I am riding according to the CVC laws regarding bicycling. The second part of the question also leaves me scratching my head. Isn't the PD responsibility is to protect and apply the law to violators? Since when is it to promote a cause?
I'll be passing on this survey, thanks aways.
User112.21.07 - 1:26 pm
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iz fone usr1. yous kud aktully say what u did there
on teh FONE!
Knittens12.21.07 - 1:30 pm
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No, they actually could have phrased a far better question than the loaded one above. You know the media is just going to twist this around and get the conclusion they want.
I'm passing!
User112.21.07 - 1:41 pm
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I actually adressed the crappienss of their question in my answer.
trickmilla12.21.07 - 1:51 pm
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EVERYONE,
I think it is important to address how supportive the LAPD has been within its juristicion for, "large group bicycle rides". I am actually really impressed and pleased with thier level of non interference over the last year during most Midnight Ridazz rides. Now, if we can show that comparison to the Santa Monica city officials, then perhaps we may have a little more ground to work on than we've had before. Please try to address this particular issue.
"Why can't the SMPD be more supportive like the LAPD has been for the cycling community."
Joe Borfo12.21.07 - 1:59 pm
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Could I get a response from what I said?
Joe Borfo12.21.07 - 2:14 pm
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Supportive isn't quite the right word for LAPD's attitude toward large group rides.
Realistic or
pragmatic is more like it. They recognize that the best way to deal with a large group of cyclists riding together is to keep the group moving. This makes for a better, and dare I say more realistic and pragmatic, line of argument against Santa Monica's counterproductive "panic button" mode of response to group cycling.
PC12.21.07 - 2:18 pm
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Well in comparison to SMPD I feel the LAPD are more supportive. But I get your drift. How can we better rephrase this then?
Also, this was NOT brought up at all to the SM city hall meeting we went to. Can we try to relay this info so that it becomes clear that the SMPD are overstating their authority?
Joe Borfo12.21.07 - 2:24 pm
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How can we better rephrase it? By more accurately rephrasing it.
realistic
pragmatic
cooperative
not hysterical
Neither SM nor LAPD is truly
supportive of Critical Mass. The difference is that LAPD isn't actively trying to thwart it, for the reasons stated above.
PC12.21.07 - 2:33 pm
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Sorry, I'm not sold on your use of words. next!
Joe Borfo12.21.07 - 2:53 pm
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Well, if you want to try to sell the image of the LAPD holding hands and singing folks songs with us, go for it. It'll be kind of awkward when somebody contacts them for comment, though.
PC12.21.07 - 3:09 pm
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Everyone including the newspaper above is working under the guise that something is wrong with the bike riders and it needs to be fixed. The only thing wrong is that the SMPD is not following the laws they are sworn to protect. The newspaper should be asking the *PD* stupid questions, not us! If the newspaper did care about CM and the riders in general, they should do an interview and not one Q&A that they themselves can frame how they want.
User112.21.07 - 3:25 pm
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usr1
prehaps
but u haz hi spectations 4 fwree paperz
Knittens12.21.07 - 3:32 pm
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""Are Critical Mass riders flouting the city’s laws or should the police work with them to help promote bicycling in the city?"
fuck it I know this is going to rain hell on me but here goes...
this question is not totally wrongly stated IMHO here's why...
CM (and MR for that matter) are bound by nature to flout city laws because of the FACT that they traditionally run the reds against the law. If it were a mass of 1000 of any other street legal vehicle it would be the same issue. picture a mass of 1000 motorcycles or a mass of 1000 cars.... there would be just as much outrage against such a ride....
the LAPD
have been supportive of MR in most cases. I know this because many times I personally have spoken to them and they were never abrassive to me (I wasn never abbrassive to them either) and more than a couple times they've actually escorted our ride through the lights. sure, it sucks that they were present and it feels big brother for them to camp out at the edge of our rest stops BUT the reality is that we are running reds. so its a give and take. CAN they harass and ticket MR if they wanted to? Hell yes, they can simply use the same tactics that they use on SMCM. but the reality is, that we do it on a Friday NIGHT, we grew from the community that it started and therefore have significant
local support we ride way after rush hour and we have never professed to be a protest and we always try and encourage people to be friendly to motorists and cops. but the MAIN issue in my humble opinion is timing. It is much less menacing for us to be riding at 10PM than during rush hour in a uber congested portion of a small richie rich city. plain and simple. If SMCM rolled at 10pm I guarantee there would be less strife from the cops. in fact MR gets heat from other richie rich cities like burnbank and glendale (though never to the degree of a 6.30pm ride in SM).
So considering that MR does indeed break the law, I would say the LAPD are supportive in that they hardly ever ticket and hardly ever even chirp at us. in return we wave and say THANKYOU, so thankyou to the LAPD for either being too busy to care, or for actually seeing us and knowing that the ride is for FUN not protest and winky wink looking the other way instead of burdening themselves with a non threatening issue.
so the first part of the question:
"Are Critical Mass riders flouting the city’s laws"
my answer is YES when CM rides through reds it DOES flout city laws.
"should the police work with them to help promote bicycling in the city?" YES and NO. YES the police should, DEPENDING on the amount of riders
from the community who thus can participate and can hold significant sway in local city politics. CM like it or not has a rep for being a protest for whatever reason, be it the start time or the origins etc... (I suspect the main reason for the crackdown is simply the start time) BUT if enough local people partake in a protest then change will happen, such as in SF where the city is small enough that it doesnt have small regional CM rides it has one big MASSIVE CM ride.... unfortunately so far in SM it's just not the case. most of the citizens are richie richies who drive and who are beleagered in traffic from the idiots who voted to block the subway to the sea in the 80s and chose to isolate their city. its a bunch of old coots and their next of kin who run shit in SM and the ground swell of cyclists willing to ride at 6:30pm has not been enough so far to bully the city into "dealing with" or "tolerating" CM as has happened in other cities.
flame on.
Roadblock12.21.07 - 4:06 pm
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RB -
"Are Critical Mass riders flouting the city’s laws"
my answer is YES when CM rides through reds it DOES flout city laws.
Me -
You maybe getting your CMs mixed up. The SMCM has conceded the running of the red lights. They stop at red lights, and have been for quite some time, so you may want to change your statement above.
Comparing SFCM and or NYCM to other CM is not quite fair for various reasons. The political climate is far more tolerant in SF than anywhere else in the US. And both cities are limited in territory, so they both have quite abit larger capita per square mile than LA or SM.
User112.21.07 - 4:52 pm
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Also if you change the start time of the SMCM, then why don't you just change the name too? Just about everyone identifies CM as starting on the last Friday of the month and around 6-7pm. Sure here in the LA area we have some starting on other Fridays, but it's not straying far from the spirit of what CM is all about.
User112.21.07 - 4:56 pm
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"You maybe getting your CMs mixed up. The SMCM has conceded the running of the red lights. They stop at red lights, and have been for quite some time, so you may want to change your statement above."
nope. because the issue is reputation. THAT's what SMPD and it's city council are concerned about. since the ride STARTED out by running reds it is not un-reson-able for one to think that as soon as SMPD lets up on it's harassment , that the ride will resume to act like it's sister rides in LA and other cities which would mean running reds, holding up traffic, and possible circle of death etc. that's what the SMPD and it's city council knows and is afraid will happen if they let up. and since there so far hasnt been a significant amount of local business money interests and citizens involved in pro CM activities at city council vs those against (car drivers) it's very likely the harassment will continue to at least crush the spirit of what CM was meant to be.
Comparing SFCM and or NYCM to other CM is not quite fair for various reasons. The political climate is far more tolerant in SF than anywhere else in the US. And both cities are limited in territory, so they both have quite abit larger capita per square mile than LA or SM."
actually for a long time SF tried to stop SFCM but the local support of cyclists and business interests in addition to far more liberal thinking populous made that impossible to over come. they were forced pragmatically to tolerate SFCM. but they still regulate. the cops ride along, the cops make sure it doesnt go onto the freeway et al.
I'm curious about the state of NYCM is it still as massive as it once was since the city enacted laws against riding more than so many cyclists at a time? RRH what is the climate like when NYCM rides... did the ride stop all together or are people battleing it out with the NYPD?
Roadblock12.21.07 - 5:01 pm
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"Also if you change the start time of the SMCM, then why don't you just change the name too? Just about everyone identifies CM as starting on the last Friday of the month and around 6-7pm. Sure here in the LA area we have some starting on other Fridays, but it's not straying far from the spirit of what CM is all about."
I wasnt suggesting to re-name the ride OR to reschedule it. I'm just being devils advocate and presenting the other POV. Know your enemy. know THEIR arguments and issues in order to understand why the harassment exists.SM city council and SMPD know what the "spirit" of CM is all about as you and I say.... so that's why they are working to crush it. they know that humans will behave when the kitteh is there and play when the kitteh is away.
The people who are the promoters of SMCM must find a way to drum up many more times the
local support for CM if they expect this thing to live on as a CM ride and have the attributes of the rest of the world's CM rides.
Roadblock12.21.07 - 5:07 pm
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From what I've seen and heard, the SMPD crack down is all about one thing:
POLITICZZ
I think RB's analysis has a lot of truth to it. I will go the the next SMCM. I said that last month, and didn't make it, but I will be there this next month. That ride changed my life, and I hope it never dies.
ubrayj0212.21.07 - 5:14 pm
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I will also be attending if I can make it out there in time after work. I will hustle from hell segundo as quick as can be.
I will attend not necessarily because I support CM. but based on the principal that I think LA should be one giant city not a bunch of little richie rich enclaves (like SM) surrounded by unincorporated areas and broke cities. so anything I can do to throw it in the face of these subway haters and isolationists the better. The tax dollars should be spread evenly through out the city. we are all workers, consumers and business owners in the same system who benefit from said system so give back evenly through out the system. The public schools in bev hills should be barred from receiving special money that the public schools in hollywood or south central dont have the priveledge of receiving. fair capitalism. everyone is part of it. everyone should pay their fair share of taxes. everyone should benefit from it equally.
Roadblock12.21.07 - 5:22 pm
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Fortunutely you can't get a ticket for their assumptions now can you?
In regards to the SFCM, they had a tradition to fight for too. Not only that, but there was already a large mass of people showing up for the rides, not 100-200 riders but 1,000s. Big difference in how it is handled by the city.
RB -
I wasnt suggesting to re-name the ride OR to reschedule it.
Me -
MY BAD!
I thought with what you said, you were advocating a change in time, RB - "but the MAIN issue in my humble opinion is timing. It is much less menacing for us to be riding at 10PM than during rush hour in a uber congested portion of a small richie rich city. plain and simple. If SMCM rolled at 10pm I guarantee there would be less strife from the cops. in fact MR gets heat from other richie rich cities like burnbank and glendale (though never to the degree of a 6.30pm ride in SM)."
Speaking of richie rich folks dictating the rides, isn't that why we never go to Glendale again? I'm bummed that I missed that ride!
User112.21.07 - 5:27 pm
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"Speaking of richie rich folks dictating the rides, isn't that why we never go to Glendale again? I'm bummed that I missed that ride! "
yes and no.... WP rolls through there all the time because it's a hustle but MR not so much... because it is a hassle.....
Roadblock12.21.07 - 5:32 pm
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"so anything I can do to throw it in the face of these subway haters and isolationists the better."
Very well put.
It's easier for me to get from Burbank to my gf's place in the South Bay than it is to get to the westside or SM even though it's twice as far.
toweliesbong12.21.07 - 5:32 pm
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"Fortunutely you can't get a ticket for their assumptions now can you? "
apparently many people already have gotten frivolous tickets so I think unfortunately you can....
Roadblock12.21.07 - 5:40 pm
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"I thought with what you said, you were advocating a change in time, RB - "but the MAIN issue in my humble opinion is timing. It is much less menacing for us to be riding at 10PM than during rush hour in a uber congested portion of a small richie rich city. plain and simple. If SMCM rolled at 10pm I guarantee there would be less strife from the cops. in fact MR gets heat from other richie rich cities like burnbank and glendale (though never to the degree of a 6.30pm ride in SM)."
again, stating reasons WHY. If I was advoctating for change in time, then I would have said "CM
should start at 10pm." It's up to the organizers to decide when CM starts and what it does but I dont necessarily think CM should copy MR. they are two distinct forms of bicycle ride.
Roadblock12.21.07 - 5:44 pm
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You were comparing and contrasting the two rides, SMCM and MR, you left it up to the readers as to what you were advocating. You pointed out the benefits of how MR is done. That to me, and many other readers states that you advocate one over the other. Sure you didn't say "should", but you also didn't say "shouldn't."
And in regards to this seemingly "significant local support", this would be a whole another story if the May 1st incident didn't go down. The LAPD is currently on their best behavior, and you can bet they were given orders not to needlessly go looking for trouble.
User112.21.07 - 7:58 pm
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Just in case there was any question
FTW can stand for "For the Win!" or "Fuck the World"
In this case it stands for both.
This thread is definitely in FUKC TEH WORLD mode. I dig! Right now I'm feeling very "ES EM SEA EM - FUCK THE WORLD!"
Alex Thompson12.21.07 - 8:43 pm
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RB, all excellent points. The rest of youse guys as well.
The reason why I said that the question was improperly phrased is that I have seen here several documented incedents of SMPD ticketing people who clearly were NOT in violation of the law. That is just some gangsta shit, straight up.
It's one thing for them to give chickenshit tickets like busting people for having a refelctor on their leg instead of their bike. But ...
If SMPD is do concerned about CM respecting the law THEY should respect the law. They don't give a fuck about the law. They care about power, order, and control.
Sure when po po isn't looking CM will break the rulezz. But that's all part of the game isn't it?
But if SMPD is there to enforce the law they should enforce the law.
They keep sayin' somthing about CM getting a parade permit ,,, well if that's the law then they should give an order to disperse. Not give out illegal bullshit tickets and harrass people.
SMPD could watch the ride give out tickets for legit infractions but they have no interest in babysitting cycilsts. They are pissed that they even have to be there. They want to be feared if not respected so they harass and intimdate in order to crush the mass.
That's some facist bullshit and it's the only reason I have ever wanted to partiocpate in SMCM.
trickmilla12.21.07 - 9:53 pm
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If you or anyone you know was harassed or has a valid reason to contest a ticket, tell'em to go to
http://www.labikemap.com/tickets/
jericho1ne12.21.07 - 10:58 pm
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RAD! Nice Work!
That smells like accountability.
I have a freind that works for copwatch LA I was thinkinng of speaking to him about this whole mess to get his take.
trickmilla12.21.07 - 11:16 pm
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"You were comparing and contrasting the two rides, SMCM and MR, you left it up to the readers as to what you were advocating. You pointed out the benefits of how MR is done. "
true and?
"That to me, and many other readers states that you advocate one over the other. Sure you didn't say "should", but you also didn't say "shouldn't.""
hot damn I HOPE people think that I advocate for MR... shit I built and maintain this site to promote it. in the case of our argument, the question is actually "do I advocate for CM to re-arrange it's schedule or purpose to be like MR?" the answer once again is a solid NO. I think CM is a tradition that is observed by it's followers and not my business. It's 15 years deep. I never said it should change a thing, dont get it twisted. I'm pointing out why it might be under attack by authorities where as o MR seems to be under less scrutiny. I think all CM's should adhear to whatever the accepted principles of CM may be in spirit. someone should post the official CM manifesto if there is one.
"And in regards to this seemingly "significant local support", this would be a whole another story if the May 1st incident didn't go down. The LAPD is currently on their best behavior, and you can bet they were given orders not to needlessly go looking for trouble."
MR has been riding strong for nearly 4 years. and the LAPD has 2-3 years of good relations with MR and visa versa. as wrong and corrupt as May 1 was, IMHO the incident has had little or no impact on relations with MR. you never know, they might crack down on MR next.... I'm hoping they celebrate, not hate.
If anything, May 1 would inspire ALL LA Law enforcement agencies including the SMPD to consider the implications of perceived harassment. obviously, the SMPD didnt think that the majority of the public would cry out against them for what they are doing. at least not enough to get them to chill. I explained why I think the majority of the public has only so much tolerance for massive group rides that flout the law (read: run lights). MR explicitly attempts to reduce friction on all levels as it itself flouts the law as per the kind direction of LAPD officers on duty and on the ride. it doesnt always work for the best, but it also is a significant gesture that seems so far as to have been kindly accepted by the LAPD if not most motorists.
the whole spirit of MR is basically "we are here to have FUN come join us in fun who ever you are"
Roadblock12.22.07 - 4:22 am
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"If SMPD is do concerned about CM respecting the law THEY should respect the law. They don't give a fuck about the law. They care about power, order, and control.
Sure when po po isn't looking CM will break the rulezz. But that's all part of the game isn't it?"
The tactics of false ticketing is harassment plain and simple... yes. But then you kind of alluded to THEIR main issue that allows them the speculative luxury in return to screw around and that's because they have reason-able suspicion that CM will "break the rulezz" when they are gone..... so in THEIR minds that suspicion leaves them with few choices to ensure that their perceived constituency (car traffic) flows best as possible during rush hour.
choice 1 would be that they could, as you say, "issue an order to disperse" HOWEVER this would trigger a whole different level of legal implications for them. This type of order would grab the attention of the ACLU and law $uit minded civil rights attorneys. The right to roam freely and the freedom to assemble is a closely guarded right by said organizations. ok... The SMPD MIGHT actually win a long road supreme court battle or lesser court, BUT that would really bring bad press and the reality is that they would actually likely lose such a battle. the SMPD probably dont want that heat I suspect.
choice 2 is to do basically what they are doing, which is "give out illegal bullshit tickets and harrass people." in other words low level harassment to the threshold that the greater majority of SM citizens can tolerate. some "erroneous" tickets issued.. but the press will pitch it as "are they erroneous? or are they justified?" when will we know?" the court dates are far away should someone take it there.... by then many riders will be scared off and others who remain may look even more extreme in the eyes of motorists. SM wins with this choice.... so long as sympathy among the community for CM tops out at approximately 20-25%
choice 3?? some type of comprimise..... the key is in getting above their comfort threshold via local support.... hit the 50-60% level and they get nervous with possible consessions or tolerance.
"But if SMPD is there to enforce the law they should enforce the law.
They keep sayin' somthing about CM getting a parade permit ,,, well if that's the law then they should give an order to disperse. Not give out illegal bullshit tickets and harrass people."
a truely civic minded liberal and public serving police force would act perfectly ethically and compassionately according to law and would have perfect introspection with true civilian panel over sight as part of a check and balance system. but.... rememeber this is america. rich people win here more than not. it's all about affording the resources for litigation. as for the "order to disperse," see "choice 1 "above.
a parade permit?? ha. the city council MIGHT authorize one per quarter at best... definitely not issued during rush hour. definitely no longer would this legally permitted CM be "leaderless" random routing.... they would offer for a weekend or later friday evening time (at best) I'm guessing that you also not forget the police escort and insurance cost billed to the organizers (especially since this parade requires street legal vehicles) et al.
so far the best choices have been made on part of CM in my opinion.... engage city council, end running of the reds... maybe the SMPD will back down at this point... lets see what happens next SMCM!
"SMPD could watch the ride give out tickets for legit infractions but they have no interest in babysitting cycilsts. They are pissed that they even have to be there. They want to be feared if not respected so they harass and intimdate in order to crush the mass."
yes. true. absolutely.
That's some facist bullshit and it's the only reason I have ever wanted to partiocpate in SMCM. "
yes. true. absolutely.
Roadblock12.22.07 - 4:36 am
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"Speaking of richie rich folks dictating the rides, isn't that why we never go to Glendale again? I'm bummed that I missed that ride! "
yes and no.... WP rolls through there all the time because it's a hustle but MR not so much... because it is a hassle.....
Me -
Don't you mean cause we get hassled by the cops and that's not what we like? To my knowledge, MR been out there one time, right? What kind of message does that send to folks putting up a fight against SMPD?
User112.23.07 - 1:27 pm
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"That to me, and many other readers states that you advocate one over the other. Sure you didn't say "should", but you also didn't say "shouldn't.""
hot damn I HOPE people think that I advocate for MR... shit I built and maintain this site to promote it. in the case of our argument, the question is actually "do I advocate for CM to re-arrange it's schedule or purpose to be like MR?" the answer once again is a solid NO.
Me -
You were advocating a change in time of the start of CM. At least you left that up to the reader. *Not* that you were advocating MR itself. You misunderstood what I was saying you were advocating above. Go back and read what at the beginning. You'll see that it appears you are advocating a change in start time. Again, you didn't say "should", you also didn't say "shouldn't".
User112.23.07 - 1:40 pm
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RB -
MR has been riding strong for nearly 4 years. and the LAPD has 2-3 years of good relations with MR and visa versa. as wrong and corrupt as May 1 was, IMHO the incident has had little or no impact on relations with MR. you never know, they might crack down on MR next.... I'm hoping they celebrate, not hate.
Me -
I'm sure the ACLU would tell you that the LAPD is currently on a tight leash cause they are up to their necks in lawsuits. You want to think that has nothing to do with the current good relations with MR, be my guest!
User112.23.07 - 1:43 pm
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User 1 wrote:
You were advocating a change in time of the start of CM.
He was "advocating" no such thing.
Again, you didn't say "should", you also didn't say "shouldn't".
If I don't say that you shouldn't stick red hot pokers in your eyes, am I advocating that you stick red hot pokers in your eyes?
PC12.23.07 - 1:47 pm
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RB -
choice 2 ................ SM wins with this choice.... so long as sympathy among the community for CM tops out at approximately 20-25%
Me -
Tops out at app 20-25%? Are you talking about currently? Projected? Wishful thinking? What? If you have some kind of study, please do share! I'm not sure even SFCM had this much public support. Don't get me wrong, 20-25% support can achieve wonderful things. I just don't see anything near 20-25% in SM. Either now or in the near future.
RB -
the key is in getting above their comfort threshold via local support.... hit the 50-60% level and they get nervous with possible consessions or tolerance.
Me -
Who you kidding!?!? Those numbers get you elected mayor, SM declared CM capital of the world, a ban on anything that rolls on four wheels, and alot of jealousy from SF!
RB -
so far the best choices have been made on part of CM in my opinion.... engage city council, end running of the reds... maybe the SMPD will back down at this point... lets see what happens next SMCM!
Me -
Yes engaging the city council is a good step, but even considering getting a parade permit is suicidal. You might as well just way the white hanky and bury SMCM. Here lies SMCM, dead at the age of two.
Engage the city council and then what? Have the local paper define what SMCM is all about? That's what they are doing from the survey at the start of this thread. Either way you answer it, they'll paint it the way they want. The problem lies with the SMPD. They are not following the law they are sworn to protect. They are selectively picking off people, stopping them and then *finding* things to ticket them on. That is illegal. The people that are out of order are the SMPD. The SMCM folks have decided to *obey* the CVC code and the SM muni code when it applies. They are NOT running red lights and haven't for quite some time. And no, one can not get a ticket for thinking of running a red light or because they would have if the officer wasn't there.
User112.23.07 - 2:10 pm
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Oh Christ!
Read the whole paragraph......................
the LAPD have been supportive of MR in most cases. I know this because many times I personally have spoken to them and they were never abrassive to me (I wasn never abbrassive to them either) and more than a couple times they've actually escorted our ride through the lights. sure, it sucks that they were present and it feels big brother for them to camp out at the edge of our rest stops BUT the reality is that we are running reds. so its a give and take. CAN they harass and ticket MR if they wanted to? Hell yes, they can simply use the same tactics that they use on SMCM. but the reality is, that we do it on a Friday NIGHT, we grew from the community that it started and therefore have significant local support we ride way after rush hour and we have never professed to be a protest and we always try and encourage people to be friendly to motorists and cops. but the MAIN issue in my humble opinion is timing. It is much less menacing for us to be riding at 10PM than during rush hour in a uber congested portion of a small richie rich city. plain and simple. If SMCM rolled at 10pm I guarantee there would be less strife from the cops. in fact MR gets heat from other richie rich cities like burnbank and glendale (though never to the degree of a 6.30pm ride in SM).
Me-
You are now going to try and tell me he isn't comparing and contrasting MR vs SMCM?!?!? You are also going to tell me he isn't advocating that one does it better than the other? Sure he doesn't say, "should" as he has stated and tries now to claim, "well I never said should". Yeah he never said should, but he never said shouldn't either.
Ending of F**KING Transmission!
User112.23.07 - 3:12 pm
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"t is much less menacing for us to be riding at 10PM than during rush hour in a uber congested portion of a small richie rich city."
Me-
This is not comparing and contrasting???? Yeah the reader is made to draw their own conclusions, but the conclusions is pretty clear.
User112.23.07 - 3:15 pm
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Alan you are running yourself in circles give it a little timeout. And seriously, unless you are just not grasping the concept stop trying to change what the argument is about. Focus here.
Here plain and simple for you.
The original argument you brought up was whether I thought CM should change itself. (Whether I was advocating for cm to change its time) (ps who fucking cares any way)
The answer:
They should keep the spirit of CM as they see fit. Its up to CM people how they define their ride.
Do I advocate for MR?
The answer
YES
Do I advocate for MR over CM?
The answer YES
I prefer MR to CM. In fact I prefer almost every ride I've been on to CM.
Do I advocate for CM to change itself?
The answer NO
Why should they? Then it would be another ride in spirit. If there's a problem getting a CM established for lack of local support then instead just focus on rides that occurr at a more desire-able time like almost all the rides posted on here. But that's just me. I like social party rides.
I hope it doesn't go over your head again.
Roadblock
12.23.07 - 8:25 pm
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No problem, the paragraph is there for the reader to read and draw their own conclusions. I never was making the argument that you are advocating one ride over the other. What I was arguing about was that you made, read advocating, the way one ride is organized over the other. That is clearly stated by you above.
Hopefully that has become clear to you by now, cause I've exhausted all ways of pointing this out.
User112.23.07 - 9:38 pm
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Perhaps someone should make some spoke-cards/t-shirts with,
"My friends went to SMCM, and all I got was this damned citation!!"
Just my luck someone uses my name in place of their own when faced by the local heat.
Back to my Sirius 35, CHIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLL.
bentstrider12.23.07 - 11:14 pm
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User 1 wrote:
"t is much less menacing for us to be riding at 10PM than during rush hour in a uber congested portion of a small richie rich city."
Me-
This is not comparing and contrasting???? Yeah the reader is made to draw their own conclusions, but the conclusions is pretty clear.
Of course it's comparing and contrasting. Comparing and contrasting are not even remotely the same thing as advocacy. And as for this "clear" conclusion of yours, it would appear that you are the only person to whom that particular conclusion is clear.
I'll leave you with a bit of comparison and contrast to mull over: if Critical Mass were held inside a rented soundproof velodrome in Lone Pine, CA at 3:00 AM, there would be far less police harassment than there is currently at 6:30 PM in downtown Santa Monica.
Did I just advocate changing the time and place of Santa Monica Critical Mass? Tell me, man. The conclusion ought to be pretty clear, no?
PC12.24.07 - 3:12 am
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@pc
Velodromes in Lone Pine!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA....................CROAK.
Underneath Mono Lake most likely.
They filmed some cutscenes from "High Plains Drifter" in the 'drome.
It was the alternate ending where "The Stranger" challenged Stacy Bridges and his gang to a "Penny-Farthing Track Stand" contest.
bentstrider12.24.07 - 3:24 am
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RB,
You can have this stinker. I'm leaving my excesive bagage in 2007 and starting fresh new and clean for 08.
Goodbye dead horse!
User112.25.07 - 10:05 pm
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looks like possible rain Friday. Get that rain gear together.
sexy01.1.08 - 2:45 pm
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Ridazz Roulette!
Can I have a witness please!