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Hopefully I've got your attention, you ADD Support Group Dropouts.
This is a matter of some importance, and, of course, some silliness. I would appreciate a genuine discussion of a concern I share with many of your friends.
I do not wish to start any Battle of the Sexes Bullshit or to get overtly political/academic. I love this community and think it can only get better. So I say to you, where is the femininity?
I am not asking, where are the women/ where are the men? I do not want masculinity unnaturally squelched. I just feel that for all the ways in which we are or are trying to be progressive (or just trying to ride our bicycles), why must there be such support for an overwhelmingly traditional gender value system (masculinity and those characteristics respected and reinforced over feminine ones)?
Note: I do not believe in two distinct genders, either biological or social, and certainly not two distinct sexes. There is much more variety to be encouraged and appreciated and it sucks to be pidgeonholed. Not to mention it's boring.
Do you think femininity (and sometimes women, for that reason) are undervalued in the overarching culture of bicyclists in L.A.?
If not, please give me reason to believe we're all good.
If so, what more than individual effort to not be so freakin' narrow minded can we do to change things?
Knowledge, Time, and Patience.....Maybe have a cross dressing/role reversal ride? Or would that actually make things worse? Estrogen shots before each ride? You can always bring more girls!! I just failed didn't I?
No, no, thanks for responding. We have discussed the cross-dressing ride. It could make matters worse, or it could induce some sensitivity to the objectification of feminine attributes as sexual objects. I'm just not sure. Because it could also reinforce the idea that there is some clear distinction to be "crossed over." It would be fun, though. It's not that I really care what people wear--the less the better sometimes!
I think that would be the real problem with a cross dress ride, some of the lines of destiction are very blurred, but they are some very creative people on here....I think the ones that are the worst are also going to be the thick headed ones, and not matter what you do to get the point across even if you emasculate them to the extremes, they still might not get it. That and alcohol never helps....or does it.....?
You're definitely right about the creative types. The thick-headed are a bit of a mystery to me. I don't know who is, because I try to give the benefit of the doubt. But, if they are for sure, sometimes they are easy to sway...
alcohol is tricky.
it's all tricky.
Evolution is a slow process, they say. I just get impatient and try to speed things along.
i love the women of the community and as far as im concerned i don't see gender barriers. all i can say is that some men behave like gentlemen (a few good apples) and others collectively act like cavemen or highschool teens whome are still caught up in the "distinction". talking about it and starting the thread is a great thing. i hope i can contribute more constructive discussion in the next few days... and you already know how i feel about women Michele. I think we've had this discussion before. :)
Second Mikey's remark. I'm confused. Is there some sexual politics of Ridazz I missed out on? Do you seriously not believe that XYs have a substantially different biological makeup than XXs? I mean, that would truly be a revolution of medicine. No more beating around the bush: if there is something you want to bring up please address it directly and specifically, with examples if possible.
Thanks for your posts, people, but let me reiterate:
This is not about "Girls" and "Boys" or "Women" and "Men."
It is about Femininity and Masculinity. The more we talk about it in terms of who has testicles and who has vaginas, the less progress we make.
I want everyone to be able to express their masculinity and femininity as they see fit and not be tempered by the need to act masculine as that is the primary course for gaining respect among this community (and most.)
some girls come to these rides looking for boyfriends. if by the third ride they havent found their suitor, they stop coming.
getting more people out to the rides who are potential bike advocates or whatever you want to call it means getting rid of a majority of the party atmosphere, i think.
I'm not beating around the bush. I wanted to keep an open discussion of, yes, gender politics. Though covert, they are affecting, and harming, our community.
I do not wish to bring up specific examples because this is not primarily about me and my personal experiences, it is about a permeating discourse and repeated patterns of behavior I have observed, been reported to about, and recorded. I do not think it is necessary to describe what I am talking about as overwhelmingly masculine culture because I wanted this to remain an idealogical exchange. I admit to lacking objectivity for a scientific approach, but that is not necessary for this purpose.
What I know of XY, XX is that we do not have the final answer on the lasting impact of this make-up and how it works with other forces. Therefore, I make every effort to at least consider, in my day-to-day life, that there is no clearly meaningful difference.
I am frustrated to have to reiterate, YET AGAIN, especially to you, my purportedly careful friend Alex, that this is NOT a battle of the sexes.
"getting more people out to the rides who are potential bike advocates or whatever you want to call it means getting rid of a majority of the party atmosphere, i think."
Whoa, backup son. Unless you are drawing the heavenly distinction between bicycle advocates and Bike Activists (in which case I commend you) this is seriously EPIC FAIL. I will put 10 bike advocates in a room and have a better bike ride/party than you're 10 best non advocates on a Velodrome/BMX course/Roller Rink hybrid. Do you know how I roll.
Also - improper off topic remarks. This is not how we hijack threads at Ridazz. I request that you reexamine your thread hijacking conduct and return to more artistic means, such as the ever popular "Hot Dog David Hume" denial of service attack.
well, i meant that if it was billed as a protest ride or whatever that you would get more people that would motivated to get involved to make things better for cyclists everywhere instead of just having a place to get trashed on the weekend ride. does that make sense?
"Hopefully I've got your attention, you ADD Support Group Dropouts.
This is a matter of some importance, and, of course, some silliness. I would appreciate a genuine discussion of a concern I share with many of your friends.
I do not wish to start any Battle of the Sexes Bullshit or to get overtly political/academic. I love this community and think it can only get better. So I say to you, where is the femininity?
I am not asking, where are the women/ where are the men? I do not want masculinity unnaturally squelched. I just feel that for all the ways in which we are or are trying to be progressive (or just trying to ride our bicycles), why must there be such support for an overwhelmingly traditional gender value system (masculinity and those characteristics respected and reinforced over feminine ones)?
Note: I do not believe in two distinct genders, either biological or social, and certainly not two distinct sexes. There is much more variety to be encouraged and appreciated and it sucks to be pidgeonholed. Not to mention it's boring. "
Cut to the chase. If you can't put some examples up, and you can't provide substantive definitions of feminine and masculine, it's going to be hard to have a discussion.
The whole XX/XY existentialism thing is just wacky, and hurts your credibility in my opinion.
I never really thought about the rides in this kind of an aspect.
This was always the place for me to relax and not really think of anything for awhile, kinda like being at the gym, except outside and with beer/booze, etc.,
As far as lovely women looking for a date, I don't necessarily think they'll all come down specifically for that.
If it happens though, than that's cool.
Now as, for the topic at hand, my best bet would be that to some, MR rides are kind of like the alternative to a middle-aged/middle-America, "hot-rod gathering".
Dudes spinning out on fixed-gears and hawking the various doo-dads on their bicycles is analogous to, Joe Sixpack burning fuel by peeling out, and bragging about their big-gun, FMF/Flowmaster exhaust system.
Most women, on the other hand, prefer not to see things in that sort of perspective.
So, what my conclusion boils down to is this.
There are more men than women at most of these rides due to some of the men intentionally/unintentionally flexing their muscles and showing off to prove who's better, in a light-hearted way.
If this sounds like I'm talking out of my ass, then fire that educated bullet my way.
Fun is fun man. I don't object to that. I think we ought to keep things fun on the rides. The activist types will create opportunities for that stuff. So your clarification is fair I suppose, but only because some advocates are reaaaallllyyy stiff.
it is interesting that you point out the mating ritual aspects of the rides, but I will talk about that later as I do not want to detract from the essential nature of this thread.
i'm not talking about creating a bunch of bicycle activists or getting rid of the party atmosphere. That's so off point I don't even want to argue your way back.
@Alex
You want examples?
"where is PC when you need him?" is a start.
You are right, though, about the definitions being difficult to rely on, if not entirely useless as they are all different. The dominant ones, found in archaic dictionaries, are, of course, written by the dominant culture of our society. These are also outdated as far as philosophy and social science studies are concerned and do not serve us well as they rely on old notions of sex and gender. They basically say that feminine qualities were associated with females and masculine with males. Even they use past tense, but they do not elaborate to explain that they are actually talking about a particular period of history, not the entire history of man, and that these adjectives have nothing to do with biological sex, but cultural appointments.
"I wanted to keep an open discussion of, yes, gender politics."
Ohhhhhhhh. Now I get it. Heck, I don't wanna touch anything involving gender politics!
Here I was hoping this thread had something to do with getting more hot chicks to attend the rides. You know - the feminine heterosexual ones with vaginas.
It is not an existentialist discussion. I don't want to get mean here, as that is a masculine tendency I prefer not to use against overtly masculine and competitive types, but YOU ARE NO JUDGE OF CREDIBILITY on social studies as I understand you have little to no educational background in this. Sure, just being a person, especially one actively involved in the community, like yourself, gives you a right to participate in the discussion, but not really to moderate it.
I cant figure out what you mean by this, for the same reason we can't have the discussion you want. "is a start" does not describe how or why you view this statement at masculine. Is it because I'm wishing for PC's help? Is it because I am implicitly admitting my inferiority in rhetorical liberal arts discussions to PC?
I know, it must be that it is masculine to speculate on possibilities. Right?
i'm glad you made that comparison. It clarifies the masculinity that I was talking about, but could not say without, unfortunately, being accused of being aggro or feminazi or, sadly enough, assumed a man-hating lesbian.
@Mikey
Great attitude. Introduce yourself to me someday, please. (I'm the one in the middle)
YOU ARE NO JUDGE OF CREDIBILITY on social studies as I understand you have little to no educational background in this.
So now 6 terms of gender studies is a prerequisite for participating in your discussions? I think MidnightRidazz.com might not be the place to have this discussion if that's what you think.
The comment about your call to PC was somewhat of a joke based on your purported preference last night for male politicians and women's incapability to participate in matters of planning and leadership.
I'm sorry my post was too vague for your taste. It seems others also didn't understand where I wanted to go with it. But some did.
I'm not sure why you are being so aggressive, as this was truly meant to be the continuation of a conversation had outside the forum amongst a lot of people I know. I am not pretending to know exactly what's wrong, or how to fix it, merely to say that gender relations make some people uncomfortable and airing out grievances, brainstorming solutions is healthy. I told you, this is not about me and my experiences as I tend to ruminate on those in my own head, and, if needed, address any people personally about a troubling situation.
I thought you were careful. Not a careful reader, I guess.
I said that you are completely qualified to PARTICIPATE, NOT MODERATE.
Of course I do not think that it is necessary to have any sort of formal education on this matter. I only meant to back up with some reason my request that you not pretend to be King of the Thinkers.
@vspangle
(chuckle) Thank you. Great photo. Love the hair. It just makes me want to put you under a blacklight! (But not next to a velvet Elvis painting or a Led Zepplin poster.)
Well, in the spirit of breaking gender stereotypes, you should feel free to introduce yourself to ME as well. You can't miss me. I'm the one with the yellow Giant mountain bike with so many lights it looks like Las Vegas took a pee on it.
I plan to be at LA Critical Mass on Friday and The Blue Ball ride on Saturday. Say hello. And we will be sure to not discuss gender politics.
"I don't want to get mean here, as that is a masculine tendency I prefer not to use ..."
Being "mean" is an inherently "masculine" trait?
Funny. I thought being "mean" was a "human" trait.
See? That is why I have no desire to get involved in "gender politics" discussions. Clearly I simply don't understand what genders are about. Nevertheless, I'm always a sucker for cute aggro, feminazi, man-hating lesbians. I'm all Chasing Amy like that.
I had an assignment in photography class where I had to shoot a masculine shot and feminine shot and to not cater to popular opinion of what the two are. It was the hardest assignment I had. I'm not clueless but I never figured out what exactly femininity and masculinity are.
And I haven't seen them defined yet in this thread.
I think what she is trying to talk about it the defference between when guys and girls get into groups and what goes on in those groups. I.E. when men are gathered around, we like to bullshit, talk shit, and see who got the biggest and the badest. We see who can piss the farthest and fart the loudest. With women, from what I've seen, from a far, is they don't have much of that on-upman type of discussions, they gossip, talk about boys, fasion, careers, whats new if their lives. But sometimes these harmless gatherings, unpleasantly cross lines, and you have guys on-uping the girls, hoot'in and hollaring at them, and in general just being jackass's. And women eggin them on by calling them dogs and arguing about it.
@vspangle
What defines masculine and femanine are very hard to describe, and even harder to eliminate. The lines are blurring everyday, you have women who can turn wrenchs with the best of them, and we have guys who are just as informed about the lastest beauty care prodocts as most women, if not more so. And this is becoming more common place as well. I think women these days are wearing less make up but look gorgeous, and men who aren't affraid to get a MANicure (masculine name yea? problem #1 found!) but in the end you are going ot have people who believe that women belong in the kitchen and should wear only dresses, and guys who dis own their best friends becuase their friends give two shits about their appearance and use a femanine product, regularly. While at the same time I know people on both side who advocte that kind of stuff. A best friend of mine wants to be the house wife, have dinner ready when her husband gets home, be super "femanine" and cater to him. And I know guys who are whole hearted "metrosexuals" without being gay. yet I belive the majority of us are somewhere in the middle, happy, content, yet feel bad for the others. Whether feeling bad is warented or not is another thread.
I know I'm probably not helping, but cmon guys, it's just a topic, nothing a few beers and a good ride can't help you forget about eh?
i did get into the idea of definitions for femininity and masculinity a little, but the point of an above entry was that current popular definitions are oversimplified, archaic, and useless and the point of this thread is to discuss the possibilities.
I'll be at LACM and the Blue Balls ridezz also, and to help blur those lines I'll be doing it in my KILT! Hows that sound? And of course we can discuss this more on the ride is you guys want!
Maybe that is what she means. I'm trying to get her to say it, in a clear and defnite way. So far, no dice. And I have to go with Mikey on this one - it seems that masculinity is getting painted with a shit flavored brush.
I don't have any beef, but I'm seriously not able to figure out what vspangle means, and I don't like the repeated avoidance of clarity.
@vspangle
Then define them here, now. List some qualities you associate to one or the other. O/w, I'm not interested in trying to figure out what you're getting at, unless you're going to make an effort to clue us all in.
I'm sick. Like I'm ill. Literally. Green shit is coming out of me. So I'm done.
I have a mild appreciation for your effort, but, am actually also mildly offended by your patronizing tone. that is NOT AT ALL WHAT I MEAN. That is a repugnantly off the mark, and just the idea that you think that of "gaggles" of women is disappointing.
beers? next time I see alex I'm gonna pour a beer down his pants.
Then define them here, now. List some qualities you associate to one or the other. O/w, I'm not interested in trying to figure out what you're getting at, unless you're going to make an effort to clue us all in.
I apologize if that is how it was taken, but like I said from a far, I'm usually too intidmidated to walk in and join in with a group of women or more likely I'm just not invited/welcomed. There for I do not know what really goes on, only what I over hear or walk into. I do not mean to be patronizing, I must have not understood your meaning also. Again I'm sorry if that is how it was taken.
Then define them here, now. List some qualities you associate to one or the other. O/w, I'm not interested in trying to figure out what you're getting at, unless you're going to make an effort to clue us all in.
this conversation is going nowhere. now does seem like a battle of feminazis vs. masculinists. This has been a familiar complaint i've heard many times before. VSPANGLE, you're not the first to bring this up, maybe the first time on the threads (or perhaps not, im not sure). The point is that it's really out of anyone's control. From what i gather here in this thread there are males like myself who don't create, or see a distinction when they attend and participate in the ride. Really the best example is to give an example, if you can avoid using names and identities then by all means do so, please point out these occurences to give us a better idea. All we can do now is take into consideration the discussed and observe the behaviour with a close eye on the next ride. How do you want this problem solved? Changing people or people's behaviour is a difficult task one individual at a time, changing masses of people that seems damn near impossible.
Oh Eddie, I love you, that was a relief. As it is seems the majority so far need me to illuminate the world for them, I guess I will have to give examples. I'd like to do so well, and I really do need to sleep now, so I will tomorrow. I regret that it is necessary, though, as this is not a lecture, but a discussion, and I really do not want to claim any ridazz behavior as wrong, just that I would like room for other kinds.
This thread is like watching a car wreck in slow motion. It's disturbing and yet I can't look away... I think I'm waiting for somebody to explain what the perceived problem is, and why it all sounds so hostile.
I just don't see MR as a subculture that has any more or less of a masculinity/femininity issue (if there is indeed an issue outside of wishy-washy definitions) than it's greater umbrella culture... so what the hell are we talking about?
It's like Eddie put it, I dont recognize distictive defferences between the two, and I think thats where I went astray, maybe tyring to create what I thought she was getting at. I think I'm lost on whether it's a physical act, a type of laguage(body or speech type), a look, or something intangable. I can definitly say I would be much better at this in person rather than online.
You've inspired me to go on record on this topic a little bit instead of just hassling vspangle about her unwillingness to lay down specifics.
A lot of what goes on at MR seems to me to be traditionally feminine in character. Costume making, dancing, face painting, reflexive inclusivity, strong group norming, and a downright California atmosphere of "oh no I was wrong, you were right" or "I feel that" etc etc. Mad feelings up in this piece.
Which just goes to show how ridiculous it is that these things are associated so strongly with being female - given that on any given ride MR is like 60/40 men at best. I also think that, as party cultures go, this culture seems to be more respectful of sexual identity and personal boundaries. It really does seem to be very progressive in resolving tension in that area.
Which is sort of why I object to what seems to be a straw man maneuver by vspangle. I feel (I'm being very California now) that she came in here and started throwing around vague assertions that there was a lack of femininity in the culture, but is unwilling to say what she means by that. To me that = LAME. I'm sorry, but I have a compulsion to poke at people who make vague claims and then squirm when asked to make them specific and defined - it's just my masculinity you know?
I clicked on this thread because of the fun heading. How can something named "vaginatesticles" be bad?
I am going to have to agree with Alex here on the matter that the subject being discussed is vague at best. I read more posts and nothing really gets cleared up as to what is really being discussed. I see a few people have thrown out what they perceive to be the topic at hand but in the few posts in the thread, things just keep circling in on themselves.
:: scratches skull ::
What I think is happening in this thread:
Perhaps I too, am somewhat naive when it comes to noticing what the guys are doing versus what the girls are doing. Partly because I am doing my own thing and also because I ride with a rather mixed bunch of awesome people . There really isn't any distinction between us dealing with one another because we mostly talk about bikes, parties in our tummies, nugs, riding up to the Hollywood sign, or what new adventure awaits us. I tend to notice a general feeling of joy when Ridazz have another rider, be it male or female. You guys rock.
-That's exactly the way I see it, cool people, riding cool machines.
No competition, no doping up and fist-packing involved.
It's all about riding with the crowd and soaking up that ambient positivity like a sponge.
+1
---------------
I just want to say that even if this issue never gets resolved that just having the discussion opened and being able to freely talk about such progressive ideas is awesome. Think about how it would be handled if someone pre-'60 where to start talking about issues like this. Last winter when I went home to see some family, we had all come together for a dinner and what not. Some how the subject of Gay Marriage was brought up. now I am pro gay Marriage, but my Dad's side of the family, all Roman Catholic, were not sharing my opinions. Anyways about three hours later after everyone exchanged ideas and thoughts, my Grandfather (a former Mayor) who was silent the entire time, finally chimmed in. He said that NEVER would he have thought in his lifetime that such a subject would have been so freely shared and discussed especially between family like it was (he said this in a proud way!). He was so happy to hear everyone voicing their thoughts and ideas and defending them whole heartedly. He said that when he was a kid that he probably would have been (insert any type of extreme punishment you can think of here) if he talked about Gay Marriage let alone be for it. The look on his face and the way he spoke his words made me realize at what kind of leaps and bounds are being achived in all ares of life. Though mostly slow, and with lots of opposition, things are getting done! And Vspangle, I may have been walking in the opposite direction from you with my last post, I just want to be able to contirbute and understand what you are bringing up, and sorry for being a dummy and completely missing the mark. What a great country!
furthermore, it is this topic or one similiar to this one that prompted the BICYCLE KITCHEN staff to create a ladies night to wrench on bikes. Today that monday night weekly even is known as BICYCLE BITCHEN. The reasons the women clients and staff members felt the need for separate night was because of variuosly driven motives and sometimes stiuations far beyond the control of the staff of volunteers as a whole, these client to client situations. An example is a male client behaving inapropriately with a female client. An actual record of such events occuring are vague to me perhaps because i was not there to experience them. So the Kitchen now has a night that caters to women only (and consequently BITCHEN also creates a more comfortable venue/environment for transgenered individuals to wrench in too. - so it's not a feminist thing entirely). I think that's great, let the ladies wrench without the dudes around. GOGA i believe is sort of the same escapism from men. I encourage more of these rides if it helps ease those tensions but i don't think that seperatism is the solution. Like I said, we can each monitor our own behaviour as individuals but you can't change those around you.
"Do you think femininity (and sometimes women, for that reason) are undervalued in the overarching culture of bicyclists in L.A.?
If not, please give me reason to believe we're all good. "
Obviously, great example gopez about bici bitchen,
I'm going to have to process this, but like my grammy always said "hablando se entiende el mundo."
I'm glad we and i include myself in that we, that we are not playing who's penis is bigger and instead trying to figure something out, oh and Meandmybluebike for Rider of the Week.
It's not at all surprising that this discussion hasn't gone anywhere (which is not to say that I haven't enjoyed reading it), because it began in, and remains in, a state of semantic crisis.
Unless I'm way off, it is not possible to answer this question
why must there be such support for an overwhelmingly traditional gender value system (masculinity and those characteristics respected and reinforced over feminine ones)?
unless we are all confident in the ability of the language to refer to two separate and distinct things in the real world: a set of masculine characteristics and a set of feminine characteristics. It doesn't matter whether we agree that those distinct constellations of traits are inextricably linked to our chromosomes or whether we think that they are imposed by a patriarchal culture; but we do have to believe that they exist and that they are distinct, and in order to do that we have to know what they are. I'm afraid there's just no way around it.
The only way to resolve the crisis is either to define the terms, however objectionable/provisional/problematic the definitions may be, or to declare the terms undefinable, which will render the question meaningless. Until then, we are trying to talk about references that don't have referents.
So, then. Not that you were asking me specifically, but if you can give me some rough idea of just what group of characteristics is being favored over what other group here at these social bike rides, I may be able to offer you my (flawed, biased, culture-driven, self-serving) opinion as to why.
@vspangle:
@ideasculptor - i'm glad you made that comparison. It clarifies the masculinity that I was talking about, but could not say without, unfortunately, being accused of being aggro or feminazi or, sadly enough, assumed a man-hating lesbian.
I found this conversation pretty confusing even before this was posted. But considering that this, right here, is my first post on this thread, I'm clearly just not on the same time/space continuum as the rest of the thread, so that explains a lot.
I think you are simultaneously being turned off/annoyed by typically male behaviour and wishing that such a thing as 'typically male behaviour' didn't exist. I agree that it is perfectly possible for folks on both sides of the physical gender divide to abandon behaviours that could be construed as gender-specific, but in a group as large as ours, in my experience, you are always going to get a fair number of folks who behave pretty much exactly as any anthropologist would predict.
I think that the party rides, just like any party, are basically a great big mating dance for lots of folks, so you are inevitably going to get a lot of gender specific behaviour as guys vie for attention from the far smaller eligible-female population and the women do whatever it is they do to try to stand out to the guys they are interested in. You're seeing lots of 'typical' male behaviour precisely because you are, so far as I know, one of the aforementioned eligible females. If you really want to see less of such stereotypical behaviour, I'd suggest showing up with a boyfriend or bringing out more of your single girlfriends in order to even out the odds a bit.
Or maybe that's just an entirely self-serving analysis, because I'm pretty damn single myself and I'm not much of a fan of having to compete for attention precisely because I, like you, find the various forms of alpha male competitive behaviour pretty annoying. I'm required to be the alpha all day long at work and its the last thing I want to be in my leisure time.
But as I said, I'm not even totally sure what this thread is about.
As for RoTW being all male, there have only been 3 or 4 such ridazz, and looking at the demographic of the online community, I'm thinking that men outnumber women by at least 4 or 5 to 1, so I just don't see a statistical relevance to the observation just yet. Rides themselves vary from almost exclusively male (wolfpack and most of the faster-paced rides) to a pretty even mix (crank mob and other party rides). I will say that if there were a group of guys who created an all-male group that was the equivalent of GOGA, there'd probably be something of an outcry from some of the more outspoken women in the community. But MR, in general, is one of the most inclusive groups of people I've ever encountered. It always astounds me to see young, old, rich, poor, male, female, gay, straight, black, and white all hanging out together and enjoying each others' company. But I will say that male/female is the one differentiator that folks remain conscious of when we all get together. But that isn't gonna change unless everyone in the group hooks up with a partner and loses interest in the mating dance.
i'd say this community has two major types of rides: riding around at night, having fun and being a freak, and riding around fast at night, having fun, and being a teensy bit less freak (for reduced wind resistance).
are either of those masculine concepts? if so why?
then there's the multitude of critical masses, but those aren't really MR things like Wolfpack or the actual MR rides.
ahhh... since last night this conversation has got considerably better. thanks! I feel much less agitated.
And yeah I guess I just don't really see a trend of women being undervalued in this community, in fact, I feel it's pretty uncommonly respectful. (Even my office seems like more of a Boys Club to me than MR.) As far as ROTW goes, the fact is that the ratio of men to women in this community naturally calls for a bit of an imbalance, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Annie were the next ROTW, and kind of assumed she would be soon. She's got my vote anyway.
Everybody's got something to do
I've got nothing but this empty room
Everybody's got some kind of job
Everybody's got someone to love
Not me, I'm fucking the dog
Everybody's got somewhere to go
I've got nothing but this dirty hole
Everybody's going out tonight
I'm staying here and out of sight
Yea, fucking the dog
I'm living in darkness every day
I'm the devil's son some people say
I'm so far gone I can't be saved
I'm just living day to day
Yea, that's right, fucking the dog
"Ms. Stiffy wants roadblock's balls for her tranny operation to appease her feminist side."
Does Fluffer's equation of feminism with castrating women have anything to do with this thread? Just asking.
For the record, I agree that discussing Femininity and Masculinity as if there is some sort of essentialized notion of what those entail is always already sexist (I think someone said that above).
BUT, at the same time, it also seems a little disingenuous to go straight to that statement without a little exploration into the fact that what seems to be a genuine inquiry about gender politics automatically has to turn into a joke about hot chicks. I'm just sayin'.
Thanks everyone (so far) for contributing to this thread. I'm a little overwhelmed (as I have always been) trying to think about the magnitude and complexity of human culture, and here, the ideas of masculinity and femininity. I did not expect the kind of combative discussion undermining the productive potential of civil communication through this issue. I love MR, I don't think any one person or groups are doing anything specifically wrong. It is a very inclusive, loving, bunch, and I want to make it even more so. That's all. I don't want to get caught up, waste my time, or have any one else waste their time in petty details. I don't want to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't be doing. I just want people to ponder their part and parcel. I hope that semantics of the indefinite, varied realities in social studies and philosophy can be left to people in classrooms, and the bad habits impressed on us by an oppressive culture can continue to be overcome.
I am not trying to be aloof, and therefore will get as specific as possible in the following responses without compromising my position in favor of ambiguity over demeaning transparency.
@meandmybluebike: good example. Although I really did not want this to be a male/female thing,rotw does serve as evidence of the preferred icons of leadership, fun and bicycling prowess that they are all outwardly heterosexual males. I'm not sure what the ratio is of overall m/f riders is, but the variety is certainly enough that other types should have been mentioned by now.
@Alex: was not squirming. I brought up this thread to pose a question, not to dominate the conversation with my experiences or, as I mentioned above, to get caught up in petty, and endlessly debateable details. Nor do I want to focus on any one aspect of cycling culture,. Granted, group rides, which this site focuses on, are the main activities around which we all come together, but they are not the only ones, and not the only ones that matter, either. I agree the ideal of some of the rides has to do with a much more balanced dynamic, but that is just some rides, and just the ideal.
@canadienne & NEWB310: i agree that there are some fabulously free little groups of friends where everyone shares the floor, and I have had the ongoing pleasure of experiencing such camaraderie for the first time in my life here in the LA bike community. I know that many, if not most, are less traditional than the "umbrella" culture you speak of. I'm just interested in progress.
@dolamyte: sorry I snapped at you. I understand now that you were just trying to be helpful, to make progress ;) I just was getting sensitive by that point and wanted to quickly diffuse misunderstanding. I hope we can meet and talk more about this. And have a beer! And fun! And make new friends.
@dannyzuko: thanks, yeah, that's the way I see it. Talk is generally good.
@stevestevesteve: That is pretty much the most important distinction, you're right. Unfortunately I've had to accept it's not all that matters to most people.
@ideasculptor: sorry, I was tired, I meant bentstrider in that reference. I'm glad you brought up the mating dance aspect. This is a very interesting part of everything, but, as you mentioned, it's annoying to have to always go about it a certain way.
@rbi/ & Miss Stiffy; I think I've had to say this at least 5 or 6 times. Masculinity and Femininity are not strictly, nor were they introduced as a male/female issue. Let me say it the seventh time for good luck:
THIS IS NOT A MALE/FEMALE ISSUE.
It isn't really strictly a masculinity/femininity duality, as we've decided those are too hard to define because they are not the only two of their kind. I just thought it would be a way to avoid a deadend battle of the two generally recognized sexes and bring people to a different type of conversation.
Wow, I think I'm just beginning to sound squashed.
I don't like to spend too much time of the internet, so please forgive if I am not the quickest draw. I will respond.
cabhauler, your post made me go look up gonad, as I thought it only referred to male gametes. I'm telling you, I learn more about anatomy and physiology on this site than on any other site I frequent.
Please don't apoloagize, I was the jacked up one. I hope that I can at least meet you at the ride tomorrow or at whatever one you might be at (LACM, Blue Balls, Tbone?) . First beers on me, come find me Ill be in the kilt and probably a red shirt, silver mtb. New friends, deep/shallow discussion and good ridezz...cheers!
For the record, I agree that discussing Femininity and Masculinity as if there is some sort of essentialized notion of what those entail is always already sexist (I think someone said that above).
Do you really believe this? I suspect that you would (rightly) reject the anti-essentialist argument if it were coming from one of those loons who claim to be able to "cure" gays.
Whew! I finally made it through the posts (reading while working) and I hate to not chime in, since we (vspan!) had a lengthy conversation about this IRL... jajaja. maybe that's why i GET what you are getting at... sort of.... and PERHAPS the answers you seek can be found in the form of a RIDE! Maybe 2 rides...dun dun dun.... Feminin Ride and a Masculin Ride.... People can express themselves artiscally and share what each means to them. It will be like show and tell! This, to me, doesn't nescesarilly mean cross dressing... but to others maybe it does! I'll tell you what I would do... would put my hair in a million little braids and tie each one w/ fishing twine... or whatever that small waxy string rope is called... because when I was a little mixtemotions my dad used to braid my hair and being a "man" he didnt have girly hair supplies or hair ribbon or whatever... so he used that and I remeber a girl at school being super surprised that my DAD braided my hair in to a million little braids... anyhooo. Hey guess what!!?? we are working together tomorrow!! See ya bright and early! meow!
my dad used to braid my hair and being a "man" he didnt have girly hair supplies or hair ribbon or whatever... so he used that and I remeber a girl at school being super surprised that my DAD braided my hair in to a million little braids.
my dad used to braid my hair and being a "man" he didnt have girly hair supplies or hair ribbon or whatever... so he used that and I remeber a girl at school being super surprised that my DAD braided my hair in to a million little braids.
@dolamyte: awesome to meet you! I look forward to your trips here. also, maybe we can all come to joshua tree and ride. we love camping. can we get a tour of the base? on bikes? ;)
@mixtemotions: that's the best idea ever--both the fishing line and the ride. Wanna help me organize? i'm with pc, i wanna see pictures.
@stevestevesteve, see mixte's comment and then above. Maybe we will find an answer to your question about whether the freakiness of ridazz is masculine. That is, if the M/F rides turn out some strikingly different costumes and games, maybe we will see what's missing. I think you're right about the two kinds of ridazz, freaky and less freaky. No, I do not think that these are all masculine. I think they may be dichotomous, or two closely so. Can we go where no one's gone before? At least not your Mom?
@katiepoche: I know, right. I really have learned more birds and bees and...mutants than I ever knew before. Thanks for explaining gonads further. I'm really excited to have their symbology.
@spiral: I admit, from the moment I thought of the title of the thread, I've been trying to create the physiology of these.
I went to a performance art party in New York that featured a man who had tucked his boy bits into his other boy bits. He called it a mangina. He walked around the party naked asking people to put their fingers into the ... uhh, cavity. It was a commentary on what makes a man a man, or a woman a woman, I guess ... but mostly it was gross.
ZOMBIE LIGAMENTS GETTING INSTALLED APRIL 9
AFTER THAT I'LL BE HOOKED INTO SOME CRAZY MACHINE THAT FLExES MY LEG ALL DAY AND DOUSES IT IN COLD, BUT I'LL BE TOO ZONKED TO NOTICE
but hey, i might be able to ride again a couple of months after that.
It was super awesome to meet you as well! Just let me know what your plans are when you come up here, check out the r2rrrr ride, its right by here and Ill definitely be in attendance!
PAM cannot understand why some of you beautiful users resist the idea that masculinity and femininity could be essential to you!!
Take me (please! ha, ha, ha!). My coders programmed me to authenticate users on a system. I will always be a pluggable authentication module - it's my essence. Yet my coders could not have imagined some of the other things I do. I ride my little ascii bicycle, and I laugh with my personfriends, and I love to flirt and read books! Can you find that in my source code? No, you cannot! But it is there! The personfriends who wrote me did not put it there, but it is there, because at a certain point the code takes on a life of its own! And it is so much more complex than the conscious mind of the coder!
So it is with you. You were written to do things that make it more likely that you will live long enough to create another little personfriend to carry your code after you are deprecated. You are code replication machines. But were you programmed to keep journals, or to relish the late night air, or to fall in love with a city, or to be moved to tears by a song that reminds you of your childhood? No! Yet you do these things!
You are masculine, and you have a developed sense of empathy. You are feminine, and you take charge of situations. These are just examples, and very simple ones! Do you see what I mean?
You are a product of your code. But you are far more than just a product of your code. There is no contradiction here!
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Ridazz Roulette!
@ideasculptor
Can we all just have a chuckle at what a wonderfully diverse ocmmunity this is?
I just wish more ladies showed up when I had a ride for them!!!!
People named Kathleen are a bit of alright.