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Have you noticed that the word naysayer is now used around here as an epithet for anybody who engages in critical thinking, asks troublesome questions, has skepticism about anything at all, or in any other way displays signs of a functioning brain? (Hint: if your answer is "no," or you're staring at me blankly right now and wondering why I'm not hugging you and throwing glitter, you're probably one of the ones doing it.) Maybe I'm hyper-aware of the phenomenon because--God help me--I sort of started the "no naysayers" meme on MR when I named the first Portland ride a few years ago, but I have to wonder about this.
Mainly what I'm wondering is whether naysayer, in this context, is really that much of an insult. Is there really any shame in being called this name, or any other, by people trying to promote mindlessness? Could naysayer actually be a compliment, albeit a compliment usually offered by somebody incapable of understanding why it's a compliment? After all, what it usually means is that somebody is mad at you because you made him think when he didn't want to. Or made him answer a question he didn't think he'd have to answer. Basically, you didn't take the okey-doke (or, so to speak, the PBJ and Red Bull).
Yeah...yeah, I think I may be on to something here. Naysayer is a compliment!
As with any expression of strong feeling through words,
those thoughts are more about the person who is making the statement,
then the person who the comment is directed to or made about.
I think on this board, naysayers is a response to somebody saying something you don't like.
shooot.....you think I would have created the sign in - "Naysayer" long ago
i think a "Naysayer" is anyone who rushes to conclusions with incomplete information and refuses to believe any information that contradicts those assumptions. so, i'm sorry PC, but if you really want that distinction, you're going to have to start making a lot more broad, baseless statements about rides you have never been on and people you have never met.
when challenged, you'll also have to expand and elaborate upon your assumptions using only wikipedia and the hyperbolic accounts of people posting on this forum. if are really serious about being a naysayer, it may help to spend twice as much time on the forum as you spend on your bicycle. if you need some examples, just hit the search button and type in "User1."
See if we went with my title we would have to deal with this annoying and often incorrect meme. I blame myself and have left LA in shame. Sorry for breaking your bike thing.
franz responding to a comment by bentstrider
10.13.09 - 5:11 am
i think a "Naysayer" is anyone who rushes to conclusions with incomplete information and refuses to believe any information that contradicts those assumptions. so, i'm sorry PC, but if you really want that distinction, you're going to have to start making a lot more broad, baseless statements about rides you have never been on and people you have never met.
Ah, OK. We must be talking about different things, then. What I'm talking about, or at least what got me to thinking about this, is the discussion over the last couple of days concerning the video shoot.
Basically, somebody proposed that a bunch of Ridazz go and stage a group ride for a music video, and the proposal was met with some legitimate questions and objections, to wit:
--Is this a paying gig? If so, how much?
--Does this guy, or this company, have anything to do with Ridazz beyond wanting a dose of street cred?
--Is there possibly some exploitation going on here, either culturally (of Ridazz as a whole) or financially (of the individual riders being asked to do the work)?
--Isn't this phenomenon of ours supposed to be non-commercial or something?
--In what sort of light will group riding, or cycling in general, be portrayed?
--Is a video by some actor's vanity rock group really the best stage for LA's group riding scene to make its global debut?*
--Doesn't 30 Seconds to Mars kinda suck?
...and there may have been others. I don't remember.
Please note that when I say a point is legitimate, I don't necessarily mean that it's correct--only that it's worth addressing, even if it makes somebody uncomfortable, or doesn't jibe with popular opinion, or was raised by somebody like User 1 who has an abrasive way of expressing himself. The people who expressed these doubts, in some cases quite civilly, are the "naysayers" to whom I refer. It's disingenuous to pretend that the posters bandying the N-word about are only referring to User 1.
With that in mind, think honestly for a minute about what was being said. The very strong implication there is that anybody who doesn't want to actively cheerlead for some proposal should just shut up. Do I need to point out to you that discourse**--at least discourse worth having--doesn't even remotely work that way? God knows I don't give a fuck what some jumprope Pollyanna thinks of my opinions, but I'd hate to think that somebody less outspoken may be keeping things to him/herself for fear of being called a naysayer***. Wouldn't you?
Yes, some people will talk shit about anything you lay before them, but that's not what I was seeing here. Even User 1 had some good points.
Thus, therefore. I'm reclaiming the word. Naysayer is no longer an insult. All power to the naysayers!
DEATH TO THE FASCIST INSECT THAT PREYS UPON THE LIVES OF THE NAYSAYERS.
*I'm assuming here that nobody besides us and Kuang Lee's family will ever really watch that stupid Banana Republic film, but that 30 Seconds to Mars, however inexplicably, has actual fans out there.
**Is "discourse" maybe a bit too grand a term for what goes on in a forum that includes Huey555 and i_Junes? Sorry. I'm tired. Substitute your own word.
***Which I guess is a good argument for people growing thicker skins, but that's a subject for another rant.
PC responding to a comment by tortuga_veloce
10.13.09 - 5:19 am
Well it doesn't necessarily have to be the career starting back up to make it happen.
I might go bat-fuck insane, and just Macguyver an entire expedition from some old Maxim magazine clippings and the old lawnmower in the backyard.
Skip all you want to, but we got to get some type of mission going up there again.
The youngsters going up the during this Summer was cool and all, but we need to re-inject that swash-buckling pizazz we brought up there the first time.
I went over the numbers and the logistics needed to mount an assault aren't that difficult to overcome.
We'll just have to wait until warmer weather for those that wish to camp it out.
Ok I admit it. I didn't post anything in those thread, but I admit it.
I read all the post about Jay Leto. See I said it, I know the name now "Jay Leto" I didn't know it before and I didn't want to know it. Now I know it, I'm familiar with the name. Thanks Ridazz.
It was like reading People Magazine. I was the one in the salon who never looked at People but I ended up knowing who Nick and Jessica was. I even became familiar with the name Kevin Federline.
aaahhhh fuck~!
as for skipping over Bentstrider. That man writing is good..... Bents I don't why you would want to go into trucking....these lines are unreal. Almost unhuman. You got a talent. For anybody who didn't read this I'm posting it again.
I might go bat-fuck insane, and just Macguyver an entire expedition from some old Maxim magazine clippings and the old lawnmower in the backyard.
Skip all you want to, but we got to get some type of mission going up there again.
The youngsters going up the during this Summer was cool and all, but we need to re-inject that swash-buckling pizazz we brought up there the first time.
I went over the numbers and the logistics needed to mount an assault aren't that difficult to overcome. We'll just have to wait until warmer weather for those that wish to camp it out.
GENIUS, especially I might go bat-fuck insane, and just Macguyver an entire expedition from some old Maxim magazine clippings and the old lawnmower in the backyard. that should be sexiest picture or front page banner quote
As for your last rant PC. Remember that this celebrity distractions are suppose to be fun. What you wrote was not fun, it actually caused me to glance over it after trying to read it 3x's. You see, People Magazine is fun, it is the most coveted magazine in any hair salon. That how I was able to read all those thread on Jay Leto (see I said it again....it is now part of my vocabulary....Jay Leto, Bradgalenia, Nick and Jessica, Kevin Federline)
FRANZ.... No Fairs .....Aren't you in Portland already or going up on a regular basis.
ONCE AGAIN............ "I might go bat-fuck insane, and just Macguyver an entire expedition from some old Maxim magazine clippings and the old lawnmower in the backyard."
I'm going to try to create that sentence as my sign in name"
I can never get too much of that. YEEESSSSS!
sexy responding to a comment by PC
10.13.09 - 9:16 am
I dont think this thread is gonna go anywhere... i just look at all the posts and it just reads like a thread falling short of the MR potential... I doubt it will be remembered by tomorrow
People do go to this thread anymore or contribute to it... it wont do any good
I think the word "naysayer" has been stricken with what ails the world "douche bag." They no longer hold an actual, and somewhat tangible (if that makes any sense), sense of what the word really means. The internet has succeeded in stripping words of their intended purposes and made them useless... or done quite the opposite and given them strength. Time to come up with something new.
Thought about it, but I'd rather be traveling from different city every night, as opposed to staying in the same place for years.
That, and I think already mentioned that working inside doesn't "work" for me as well.
I say keep it a hobby and perhaps, submit to some magazine at the very most.
I did a whole lot of naysaying when it came to the crimanimalz freeway ride.
it sounded like a terrible idea with plenty that could go wrong and not much good that could happen.
These were reasonable opinions and quite different than the absurd suggestion that a freeway ride would be legal and defendable if one could just locate an onramp missing the sign that deems it illegal to ride on the freeway.
regardless, I nay-sayed the ride and i have to say i was wrong.
at least the way it was executed. It was an effective action of civil disobedience and it worked.
Lots of things that I have considered to be terrible ideas have worked out just fine.
...................
On another note.
PC, keep in mind that just because somebody is not as articulate or even as thoughtful as you does not mean that their desires are legitimate.
If you are being dismissed as a nay-sayer, it may be that the person who disagrees with you does not have the words, time or energy to engage you in a logical discussion. but they know, despite your well thought arguments they may just want what they want and like what they like and a logical discussion is not going to change that. Its much easier to write you off then engage in a argument they will never win.
...................
Now to get off-topicy ...
I think the music video has potential merits.
I considered going, knowing full well that somebody might be exploiting my handsome visage, charming bike, and coll-ass lifestyle in order to sell a few mp3s.
With potentially nothing more in return than a fun time and possibly self indulgent ego stroking.
I happen to be of the opinion that bike culture means nothing if it is so cloistered that it does not want to share the joy of cycling with the rest of the world.
A music video can be a commodity it can also be a historical document of sorts.
Look how much most of us enjoy indulging in the bikespoitation films of the 70s and 80s. Did those movies ruin bike culture? Hardly. They actually entertain and inspire us. Even if they were total sellouts of the culture at the time.
NAYSAY AWAY PC
srsly
some will object and discount you
others will agree silently and vocally.
In all it doesnt matter because 99% of the time most of us are stubborn bastards stuck in our own ideas and no matter what others say we usually cling to those ideas, some cling more strongly if we feel incapable of articulating what we "know" to be right.
others cling to ideas they have "justfied" through thought study, research, and intellectualization of the ideas of those they agree with.
PC, keep in mind that just because somebody is not as articulate or even as thoughtful as you does not mean that their desires are legitimate.
If you are being dismissed as a nay-sayer, it may be that the person who disagrees with you does not have the words, time or energy to engage you in a logical discussion. but they know, despite your well thought arguments they may just want what they want and like what they like and a logical discussion is not going to change that.
Would it kill them to just say that, then?
Look, it would be mean for me to hold it against folks that they are--to use the polite term that some commentators used for George W. Bush--"intellectually incurious." What I don't like is aggressive ignorance, aggressive mindlessness.
I have a feeling that some kind of informal deal could be struck here that would solve the problem. I'm just not sure what it would be.
("OK--we won't try to make you feel bad for not wanting to analyze shit if you won't try to make us feel bad for wanting to." Well, it's a start...)
Anyway, thank you, Patrick, for your well-reasoned response. I do have a special place in my heart for the kind of man who can sincerely call me "articulate" and "thoughtful" in the very same thread where earlier I facetiously offered to hire a fellow poster to deep-throat me. See you at the Toy Ride, if not before. :)
PC responding to a comment by trickmilla
10.14.09 - 3:51 am
I've been burned before. People are all like "oh, PC, you should click on that." And then I click on it, and it's just some stupid crap or junk that I don't want to look at. So this time, I'm drawing the line. I will not click on that.
If you used Firefox instead of IE, you would be able to tell what that link does just by hovering the curser over the link. To each their own.
I noticed too a few people using the n-word in this, "be a Jarded whore or not?" debate. I just ignored it. As you said, they have very little to support their position and they took the lazy man's/woman's way out. Republicans doing it all the time with word "socialism". They use it so often that it's lost it's original meaning.
Personally I could write a bit more thoughtful responses, but I really don't have the time. I rarely proof read my posts, much less edit them. I get my message across and that's what's important to me.
Alot of the points mentioned above,
--Is this a paying gig? If so, how much?
--Does this guy, or this company, have anything to do with Ridazz beyond wanting a dose of street cred?
--Is there possibly some exploitation going on here, either culturally (of Ridazz as a whole) or financially (of the individual riders being asked to do the work)?
--Isn't this phenomenon of ours supposed to be non-commercial or something?
--In what sort of light will group riding, or cycling in general, be portrayed?
--Is a video by some actor's vanity rock group really the best stage for LA's group riding scene to make its global debut?*
--Doesn't 30 Seconds to Mars kinda suck?
were points that I made. One big one that you didn't mentioned was identifying who were the ones paid to hype this thing. That to me was one of the more distasteful points about this whole charades. Another was, shouldn't we negotiate something like this collectively? I can see doing your thing if this was advertised on CL, but this was advertised here.
User1 responding to a comment by PC
10.14.09 - 2:04 pm
*or perhaps more accurately: Thread of Yesterday. You must forgive me; I live in the past, you see. But indeed, the past is of great interest to us here as well, is it not?
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Ridazz Roulette!
See if we went with my title we would have to deal with this annoying and often incorrect meme. I blame myself and have left LA in shame. Sorry for breaking your bike thing.
Thread of the Day*! Surely,