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Just heard on the radio about a group of about 100 ridaz near the Los Angeles / Culver City border were run over by a drunk driver? Report said 6 were in critical condition. Which ride was this? K-Town (because it was on Wed night)? Or a ride not affiliated with MR?
I guess everyone's at Cedar. Roger is in critical condition from what I've been told. He got a ct scan but I don't know much else. Please keep everyone in your prayers tonight. These are our brothers and sisters!
yes XL it was Kushtown. We were waiting for everyone to make their way down from Baldwin Hills Scenic Overlook as this shit happened. I saw a car speeding towards us and thought doesn't the driver see us, NO.... Drunk bitch took out the whole ride. some of us got out of the way just in time but many took the brunt force of the hit.
Just saw the news. Really sorry. We are all one family. This is bullshit. So sorry, if theres anything anyone needs let me know. Roadblock at midnightridazz.com
BALDWIN VILLAGE, LOS ANGELES (KABC) -- A driver slammed into a group of about 50 bicyclists in Baldwin Village, injuring nearly a dozen people.
The crash happened early Thursday morning on the 5900 block of West Jefferson Place.
A woman driving the car was arrested on suspicion of DUI, officials said. The driver told police she was looking down at her phone when she crashed into the bike riders.
Authorities said 11 people were hurt. Nine of those people were hospitalized, and one of them was listed in critical condition.
The bicyclists, organized by Midnight Ridazz, ride together every Wednesday night. The group was waiting on the curb for more of its members to come when all of a sudden the crash occurred.
"I saw her first, and then I started calling everybody out, 'Hey everybody, merge right, get out of the bike lanes to the sidewalk,'" said one bicyclist. "She slows down. She sees us, I think, and I could see her engine rev, and she just takes everybody out."
i cant believe what happened, it breaks my heart to hear this. . . furthermore when i find out that i have a personall connection to many of those hospitalized,
Driver crashes into pack of LA bicyclists; 9 hurt
(AP) – 1 hour ago
LOS ANGELES (AP) — Officials and witnesses say a group of bicyclists on a midnight ride in Los Angeles were mowed down by a suspected drunken driver who was using a cell phone.
Los Angeles fire spokesman Erik Scott says nine bicyclists were hurt, six of them seriously, when a white car with a woman behind the wheel slammed into the group early Thursday.
Police Officer Bruce Borihanh says the driver has been arrested and booked for investigation of drunken driving. Her name isn't available.
Witnesses tell KTTV Fox 11 that the driver was on the phone when she crashed into the group of about 100 bicyclists about 8 miles south of downtown Los Angeles near the border with Culver City.
The Koreatown bicycling group gets together for weekly midnight rides in the city.
Car vs. cyclists in Culver City (KTLA-TV)
KTLA News
6:12 a.m. PDT, June 16, 2011
CULVER CITY, Calif. (KTLA) -- Several bicyclists were hospitalized early Thursday, two in critical condition, after they were struck by a suspected drunk driver in Culver City.
The crash was reported just before 2 a.m. along Jefferson Boulevard at Hertzler Road.
A group of about 100 bicyclists had just visited Baldwin Hills Scenic Overlook when some stopped in the bike path along Jefferson Boulevard to wait for fellow cyclists to catch up to them.
That's when group members say a Honda Civic came speeding down the roadway and plowed into the bicyclists.
The driver revved her engine, hopped a curb and "just took everybody out," Alex, a cyclist, said.
Witnesses say one cyclist was dragged by the car.
Fire officials say 11 people were injured, two critically. All were being treated at local hospitals for their injuries.
The cyclists ride in a large group every Wednesday night and say they've never seen anything like this happen.
The driver is facing felony DUI charges, according to police.
Major positive vibration to those in the hospital, please join me by taking a moment to visualizing a white light healing then back to health. We need to trust that every one will be ok. Do we know how many of them are woman and how many of them are men, it helps focus the positive energy to them a little more direct.
My opinion is that certain rules must always apply with riding, rule number one:
1. ALWAYS MAKE IT HOME SAFE!!! ALWAYS.
2. No rider left behind (EVER), in any ride.
We need as riders to find a way to have better communication between each other during a ride. Maybe caring walkie talkies, whistles or something that can give warning to riders upfront or behind of dangers or hazards.
We should take this accident as a learning experience and work on uniting as riders to help prevent situation like this one. Obviously we can not control the drivers but we can unite as RIDERS and come up with a strategy to help keep us all safe.
I know that the riders in the hospital right now would feel the same way.
What can we do right now? I want to flood the D.A.'s office with letters stating that this driver can be shown no mercy for being irresponsible and reckless behind the wheel of a weapon. That justice is the least of what our comrades are due. That nothing less is possible--not simply acceptable--but that it is purely not possible for a weak sentence to be handed to this driver, or any other driver, who abuses their privilege to operate a motor vehicle and in doing so rob people of their lives and livelihood. Let us voice this statement immediately and loudly. Who else should we be contacting? I'm serious!
Here is the email for the DA's office: webmail@da.lacounty.gov
Holy shit dude like 4 people have come up to me in my office asking me about this in the last 20 minutes asking if I was involved. Just hearing this makes me sick ... Just based on what they said I had an idea it was Ktown and reading all of this confirms it. Im at a lost for words and my throughts and prayers go out to those who are injured.
This is eerily similar to what happened to me in April, same color car, same night of the week. Be careful out there guys. I hope everyone is ok, and those with injuries heal quickly.
DUI and contact with a bicyclist should be an automatic felony, injury or no. LIFE BEFORE LICENSE!
I'm sorry for the injuries suffered on the ride last night. I'm sure Sgt Krummer already has the investigation on his desk but I wanted to just let you guys know that prayers are being sent out from me since we have shared the road many times before. Please let me know if there is anything I can do. @ Roadblock, you got my number. As soon as I have more details on the investigation I will try and share them with you if Sgt Krummer doesn't update you before I can. Again, our prayers go out to all the cyclists involved...
Seriously, do they think they were having a drunk orgy up there or something? I HATE it when they automatically assume it was (or at least partially) the cyclist's fault when they know it was the DRUNK B&%(^'s fault. I sincerely hope she gets fucked in the ass by a monster cockroach.
I'm still so rattled, and I wasn't even there...I can't imagine how everyone who was involved is feeling, except completely horrible, angry and terrified. I remember the fear and anger I felt when some of us had to battle a Hummer full of reckless idiots who clipped Andres, and took out several bikes and luckily no other riders two years ago. That event is still vivid in my mind. To think of everyone who has fallen victim to reckless and irresponsible drivers fills me with rage. I wrote this letter to the DA's office, and tried to articulate my feelings as best I could without coming across with any bias. I hope that was the right place to direct my message, I'm not certain about who else to make contact with.
To the Los Angeles District Attorney,
This morning I am greatly upset and angered by the news of a driver who injured 11 cyclists with her car. I am writing to make it known that the driver who drover her car into a group of cyclists in the Baldwin Village area in the early morning of Thursday, June 16, 2011, must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the laws. For committing such a heinous act as she has, which is both irresponsible and reckless in nature, this driver can be shown no mercy for her careless actions behind the wheel of a weapon. Justice is the least of what the victims of this incident are due. It is my sincerest, deepest hope that this woman is fully stripped of her driving privileges for a number of years. Bearing the effects of her actions, intentional or not, the sentence should reflect fully the damage she has caused to so many lives--not just those who have been injured, but to those who bore witness, as well as the entire community of Baldwin Village, Los Angeles, and vulnerable street users such as cyclists and pedestrians, as well as all road users. I understand that it is early and the full details of the incident have yet to fully be revealed, yet the greater cause and effect are apparent and warrant a severe sentence, that at any level, would only begin to serve as due penance for a crime of this nature. This driver has most clearly abused her privilege to operate a motor vehicle, and in doing so has robbed people of their livelihood and, in many ways, their futures. It is simply a miracle that no one was killed, but when actions such as the drivers are capable of causing death, such as hers have been, they should be viewed as hugely life-threatening and be punished for the damage caused as well as the damage that was fully possible.
For reference, the incident I am referencing was reported by the following new channels: (here I included the text and links for several of the news reports)
This is so horrible, Please be safe everyone. My thoughts are with last night's riders. I hope that the driver understands and is punished for her actions.
I HAVE AN IDEA AND WOULD LIKE TO HEAR RIDAZZ OPINION.
Is anyone familiar with couch surfing????
One thing I appreciate about couch surfing, is that you get to post your own personal experience about the person hosting and the person visiting (basically a review).
Now, can you please for a moment imagine...a ride posted by a person who has a long list of positive rides and a following of riders who not only support by attending also participate follow the rules to assure they help keep the positive vibration going (which is what makes the ride so awesome and fun). We should reserve the right as ride leaders to ask people to leave if the rules are not followed. I also believe that as ride followers we have a responsibility to speak up and defend the vibe the ride brings. We have the right to ask someone to stop being a knuckle head and if it continues ask them to leave. Eventually the word spreads and that person making trouble becomes unwanted and will not be allowed to join any rides.
THIS CAN BE ANOTHER WAY TO HELP KEEP ALL RIDAZZ SAFE SO THAT WE ALWAYS MAKE IT HOME SAFE, just saying...
JUST A THOUGHT CURIOUS TO KNOW OTHER PEOPLES OPINION.
I have no clue why this is relevant. If you think it's relevant, it appears it's only because you're blaming the "ride" or organizers for not making it home safe.
let's end this right now, with a simple, this DID NOT have to to happen.
markd responding to a comment by BuggyBabyBumper
06.16.11 - 9:37 am
This hits way close to home. Sounds like they were just stopped for a regroup. This is something we all do no matter what ride, group, or hood. When on a group ride there are points where you find yourself pulled over to regroup, rehydrate, or to fix mechanicals.This is proof that it can happen anywhere at anytime. This sucks.
However I was not referring to the specific event that happened this morning. I will follow up at a later time on suggestions on how to find a solution that will help riders make it home safe. Did not mean to upset anyone...sorry.
This is unreal. I'm sort of just staring at my computer trying to figure out how to write about this for Streetsblog. I'm just so angry.
If anyone who was there wants to tell their story to the world, I'll publish it on Streetsblog and promote to the larger media world. We're a friendly site. Ok, time to try to write about this thing.
Sgt. Krumer & the particular LAPD station handling the investigation should be contacted as well. Their role is the most important right now.
The DA's rely on the strength of the evidence gathered by police and included in the police report when considering what charges to file and the type of sentence to offer during a plea bargain.
Holy shit, I don't know how many more of these stories I can hear before I literally go insane. This is not a society, or a civilization. What the fuck it is, I don't know, but it's not "civilization" if this is the way people treat each other, and the way we let people off easy when they try to fucking kill each other. $15,000 bail? $15,000 BAIL?? Are you serious?
What the fuck is going on out there?
I feel so demoralized and shitty about this. I feel guilty. I was riding my bike last night and having fun, while others sharing the same love of the same activity were being brutally assaulted. I feel so bad for everyone who was hurt, everyone who even had to witness this thing happen. You guys have our support, 100% and more.
And now I am hearing rumors that the police are placing blame on the riders pending further investigation into missing bike lights. Holy fucking shit!! How do you respond to that? Some putrid bitch, driving under the influence and admitting to texting while driving, jumps the curb and nearly murders how many people?? And it's the cyclists' fault?! I am not emotionally equipped to deal with this kind of outstanding bullshit.
I am pretty god damned miserable about this. Does anyone have contact information for ABC? I'm writing the DA right now.
If u were hit by the drunk driver last night, we are here to help. We need names and phone numbers of anyone hit or involved in this unfortunate event.
I am currently working with others to get the legal help anyone will need.
Also we are here as a cycling community to support you in anyway we can. We are all Ridaz and we must stick together thru all these troubling incidents.
We need pictures, eyewitness account, video
Most importantly the names and phone numbers of all involved prim Aktive420@gmail.com 323-574-3970
I'm going to send this to the DA's office, too.
Per Krista:
To the Los Angeles District Attorney,
This morning I am greatly upset and angered by the news of a driver who injured 11 cyclists with her car. I am writing to make it known that the driver who drover her car into a group of cyclists in the Baldwin Village area in the early morning of Thursday, June 16, 2011, must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the laws. For committing such a heinous act as she has, which is both irresponsible and reckless in nature, this driver can be shown no mercy for her careless actions behind the wheel of a weapon. Justice is the least of what the victims of this incident are due. It is my sincerest, deepest hope that this woman is fully stripped of her driving privileges for a number of years. Bearing the effects of her actions, intentional or not, the sentence should reflect fully the damage she has caused to so many lives--not just those who have been injured, but to those who bore witness, as well as the entire community of Baldwin Village, Los Angeles, and vulnerable street users such as cyclists and pedestrians, as well as all road users. I understand that it is early and the full details of the incident have yet to fully be revealed, yet the greater cause and effect are apparent and warrant a severe sentence, that at any level, would only begin to serve as due penance for a crime of this nature. This driver has most clearly abused her privilege to operate a motor vehicle, and in doing so has robbed people of their livelihood and, in many ways, their futures. It is simply a miracle that no one was killed, but when actions such as the drivers are capable of causing death, such as hers have been, they should be viewed as hugely life-threatening and be punished for the damage caused as well as the damage that was fully possible.
For reference, the incident I am referencing was reported by the following new channels: (here I included the text and links for several of the news reports)
As for the Ridazz in the hospital, Dopher suggested something awesome, let's try to get a fund raiser going to help out our family with medical bills. I love you ALL so much. It's unfair that today we must wake up with the fear of riding our bikes in OUR streets. We are such a strong group with such a strong connection, I know TOGETHER we can make sure justice is served.
I have been in contact with South Traffic Division since this morning and will hopefully have an update for you later today. Please be patient and I will provide you with as much information as is available.
same here, I asked her if she was, had been drinking and she said yes she had been drinking. Let's not let this case die and let her get away with this shit and many others have done before her.
I would also email (sending the same email is fine) and call, too:
1. Mayor V's office:
(213) 978-0721
mayor@lacity.org
heidi.sickler@lacity.org (does Mayor's transpo issues)
He's also on twitter: @villaraigosa
Facebook, too
2. LA City Council Transpo Chair Bill Rosendahl's office:
Councilman.Rosendahl@lacity.org
(213) 473-7011
He's also on twitter: @Bill_Rosendahl
Facebook, too
3. Councilmember Parks (Baldwin Park is in his district) :
Councilmember.Parks@lacity.org
213-473-7008
Tell them your OUTRAGED.
dudeonabike responding to a comment by Coe coe buttaa
06.16.11 - 12:27 pm
I am contacting you with regards to the story, "Driver slames into group of bicyclists, injures 11," posted at the following link:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=8193912
The reporting of this incident was atrocious and insensitive. I feel obligated to express my disappointment in your reporter, Elex Michaelson, and his inability to provide relevant information in a manner that is sensitive to the victims of a violent crime.
Last night, 11 bicyclists were injured by a suspected drunk driver. That is the bottom line. One of them is seriously injured and is in critical condition in the hospital. These bicyclists have friends and family that are devastated by the reckless actions of a thoughtless individual. Everyone who was involved will have their lives changed forever.
Meanwhile, your reporter, Elex Michaelson, is reporting on condoms and beer cans found at the scene, which may not even be linked to the bicyclists at all, and commenting on the color of the bicyclists' clothing.
It is inexcusable to accuse the cyclists of standing in the street, when they were reported by witnesses and the police to be in the bicycle lane, on the shoulder, and on the sidewalk.
What difference would it make where they were standing, anyway? When is it ever allowable for a drunk driver on her cell phone to plow into a crowd of human beings, sending several to the hospital? Shouldn't she be looking where she's going? Shouldn't she concede right of way to more vulnerable road users such as bicyclists? Shouldn't she be sober, for God's sake? Where was the commentary on these other topics?
Would this report have been the same if Michaelson's friends or family were hit by the drunk driver? YOUR friends or family?
I hope your reporters will exercise more respect and restraint in the future.
I'm writing the DA, Mayor V's office, etc after lunch.
I'm sure I don't need to tell you all that this is getting a huge amount of media play (and I'm sure I'm not the only one who got a frantic text or call from a relative this morning who saw it on the news). On either KPCC or KCRW this morning--sorry, I don't remember which--the reporter gave a lot of emphasis to a statement from a police officer blaming the cyclists for the collision because they were "standing on the street in the dark." That's not verbatim, but its pretty close...sorry, I'm out and about today and haven't been able to make notes on this stuff. Did anybody else hear that report?
It seems pretty fucked up on somebody's part, both the police and the reporter, to place so much emphasis on the cyclists' possible bad judgment in waiting up on the road. By any interpretation of the "last clear chance" principle, was it not the driver's failure in her obligation to be LOOKING WHERE THE FUCK SHE WAS GOING that is chiefly to blame here? Also, I have a hard time believing that in a group of 100 cyclists, nobody had a blinking red light of the sort that can capture the attention of a reasonably sober driver who is actually looking out through her windshield rather than down at her phone.
It just seems twisted to me that the police and *some* of the media would spin the story that way. Not surprising, but twisted. Is there something that I'm missing here?
Bikes are not allowed in the park area, but worst of all, the riders were hanging out in the first lane of vehicle traffic, which makes them partially at fault, according to police. The accident remains under investigation.
OK, I finally got the KABC video to load. "Dark clothing at night"? What the fuck is wrong with these pigs? I won't even bother worrying about this Michaelson character, as we all know that local TV news is a sort of last resort for "communications" majors who couldn't get hired at Entertainment Tonight, but...dark clothing at night? What?
all of them kept telling us that it was our fault. ignorant pieces of shit. one of the police officers went off on a rant, how "you guys" always disrupt traffic, don't obey traffic laws, yada yada yada.... all the while there were people injured and in need of medical attention.
AIDS66 responding to a comment by tortuga_veloce
06.16.11 - 1:03 pm
Officers are required to note the "Primary Collision Factor" as well as all "Contributing Factors."
So for example a driver who is makes a left turn in front of a driver who did not have his headlamps on at night. The person making the unsafe left turn would be found to have committed a violation that was the primary collision factor wheras the driver without thier headlamps on was a contributing factor.
Sgt. Krumer, what is the primary collision factor when the driver is drinking and allegedly using the phone, while 40+ cyclists with lights are standing on the right shoulder where incoming cars are not even supposed to be?
I noticed that we were on a section that only cars coming out from the park, are even supposed to be on? Cars going northbound on Jefferson should have to yield left prior to crossing that intersection.
godmode responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.16.11 - 1:25 pm
You might also want to let Culver City know how you feel, as it looks like they were the first responders, and the CCPD has a history of being fairly unsympathetic to night-time cyclists, not to mention being uninformed about the laws applying to cyclists.
For those who are curious on how this ends up in the collision database for the state:
Primary Collision Factor
A - (Vehicle) Code Violation
B - Other Improper Driving
C - Other Than Driver
D - Unknown
E - Fell Asleep
- - Not Stated
Primary Collision Factor Violation Category
01 - Driving or Bicycling Under the Influence of Alcohol or Drug
02 - Impeding Traffic
03 - Unsafe Speed
04 - Following Too Closely
05 - Wrong Side of Road
06 - Improper Passing
07 - Unsafe Lane Change
08 - Improper Turning
09 - Automobile Right of Way
10 - Pedestrian Right of Way
11 - Pedestrian Violation
12 - Traffic Signals and Signs
13 - Hazardous Parking
14 - Lights
15 - Brakes
16 - Other Equipment
17 - Other Hazardous Violation
18 - Other Than Driver (or Pedestrian)
19 -
20 -
21 - Unsafe Starting or Backing
22 - Other Improper Driving
23 - Pedestrian or "Other" Under the Influence of Alcohol or Drug
24 - Fell Asleep
00 - Unknown
- - Not Stated
anty responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.16.11 - 1:40 pm
While LAPD is doing the preliminary investugation...Culver City will be doing the follow-up and taking investigative responcibility for the collision. It was determined after the fact that the collison occured within the City limits of Culver City.
While we were waiting for everyone to come down from the park, the car came in. A few us had let everyone know that there was a car coming so they cleared the left lanes. However, the car was coming from the right. (Note that it was an illegal cross, since right lane is reserved for right turns onto Hetzler Rd. only) Car dropped in speed, which made me think she saw us and was going to stop and go around. But her engine revved up and in a matter of seconds had plowed through the whole group ending probably over 100 feet from the initial hit (on the northeast corner).
After that it's just a blur.
godmode responding to a comment by anty
06.16.11 - 1:45 pm
Since they mentioned "dark clothing", how about the LAPD change their uniforms from dark blue and black to
HIGHLIGHTER PINK!
Does that mean when I run over a police officer directing traffic in the middle of the lane, with flashlights batons, I can say, "khdiew flojdfpoijwfe DARK CLOTHING dohfwoi foijwdf" and now I can be considered not at fault.
Did I mention...... I WAS DRUNK AND WAS PLAYING ANGRY BIRDS ON MY PHONE, WHILE SEARCHING FOR A LIQUOR STORE.
I'm so fucking sorry to hear about this. I can't ehlp wondering how many of my friends were in that group. I know at least one of them was. Get well soon spiderman.
My prayers go out to all those that were affected. Waking up to news that some of your friends are in critical condition or were hit by a drunk is just not a good way to start your day.
I just saw the channel 7 news report and it saddens me how society really tries hard to find some blame to pass onto cyclists, whether it be that they didn't have "bright" clothing or beer bottles were found nearby, etc.
Fuck this! this has been happening way to much lately! Its so messed up when you get a phone call saying that a couple people you know have been hit due to some drunk driver!!! It fucken brings tears to my eyes cause three years ago my friend was killed by a drunk driver! I am in a loss of words right now... We are a bike family and I love all of you guys.. Man I dont mean to get all emotional but I cant even type right now!
KUSH TOWN FAMILY KEEP YOUR HEADS UP! PRAYERS COUNT GUYS REMEMBER THAT!
I honestly don't think it was intentional. She looked really scared when I went up to her and asked her questions. But I believe she was clearly at fault.
godmode responding to a comment by trickmilla
06.16.11 - 2:19 pm
Great letter outerspace. Thought the same thing when I heard it, but a defense lawyer will pull out all the same infp at the trial. That's just how they work, ethics or not.
But this drunk driver will get the book. No doubt.
Godmode dang my dude it hurts to hear all this shit! Take care of yourself ok G...
REMEMBER GUYS THE HOMIE NEEDS OUR PRAYERS. ONE LITTLE BIKERS PRAYER CAN GO A LONG WAY.....
I'm at the scene right now. The road curves gently to the right as you go north, but it's a really gentle curve. A driver in lane 2 (of three, where a driver NOT turning right onto Hetzler should be) should be able to see anything or anybody in the road at Godmode's map point, from as far back as the point where s/he passes the middle driveway of the sanitation truck depot on the left side of the road.
From a point about 100 feet back of the *beginning* of the right-turn-only lane, a driver would really have to not be looking if s/he couldn't see a group of cyclists in the street north of Hetzler, even if they didn't all have lights on. From that point, curvature of the road wouldn't obscure anything untill well north of Godmode's map point.
If cops, drivers, etc think "standing in the street" is a contributing factor or has any issue with such activity, then let's really make a stand on these streets. We'll mobilize and take a stand.
There was a time when all you could do is stand in the streets. The automobile weakened the right to assembly.
Let's take it back! Let's take it to the streets (again).
I appreciate your frustration but please keep in mind that is is our job to collect the information. Whether it is pertinant or not will be decided by lawyers, judges and juries. Even if we make preliminary findings, they carry only as much weight as the legal support for such a finding.
oh f@@K!!!! I had a big long spiel complete with links and everything and I clicked post. Kids don't ever do that! Open another window and make sure you are logged in!
I'll just say my heart and hopes are with all those affected by this. That's all.
Were the ridiculous statements made by the police to KABC news about dark clothing and condoms "preliminary findings," or were they just examples of officers who ought to stick to collecting information and keep their big embarrassing mouths shut?
PC responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.16.11 - 3:22 pm
@DArK ENERgy: Take it from an old Refresh Junkie®, this forum keeps you logged in for a crazy short time. Always select all and copy before hitting "Post Reply," just in case your post gets nommed by the software...NOM NOM NOM
PC responding to a comment by DArK ENERgY
06.16.11 - 3:26 pm
The problem is if the Police who are responsible for collecting the evidence are clearly prejudice against cyclist then how are they going to get justice or be treated fairly. The most critical piece in the system is the point where you collect the data and information. If cops think cyclist break rules then they might not give the attention to detail and write it off as an "accident".
Thank you for that answer. People in my office are asking me because of my MR necklace and I have no answer .. just fuck i know these people. People in my office noticed no skid marks on the news and thought it was odd.
I agree with the above comment!!! SGT Krummer, with all do respect you know that the majority of the PD don't care much for us Midnight Ridazz, or any cyclist that doesn't look like a Tour jockie for that matter. It's not fair for you to argue for the protocal of a policeman at the scene of an accident, when you yourself know that their statements and overall apathetic attitude towards these types of incidents really sucks. You are supposed to be our voice for this community and it seems like you aren't listening to us. What happened to gut instinct and cops that cared to serve and protect...not just bash people and rationalize crimes with a thinning the heard kind of mindset.
My prayers are with everyone, especially Rodger..and even that Bitch that has Justice coming to her...one way or another...
@ Sgt. Krumer
I have always found that police can do an outstanding job, I've never had anything against them. My problem is that some officers told the MEDIA that cyclists were at fault, and because of our nations ignorance and believing everything the idiot box says. Since their report my #1 news source is not ABC7, and I'm believing on having doubts on the LAPD as well. NO ONE deserves being ran over by a vehicle and condoms don't have anything to do with that.
feelingrandy responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.16.11 - 3:47 pm
LOS ANGELES (CBS) — Authorities say one man is in critical condition and eight others are being treated for injuries after an alleged drunk driver accelerated into a group of about 100 bicyclists near the Los Angeles-Culver City border early Thursday.
The crash in the 5900 block of West Jefferson Place and Rodeo Road was reported at 1:49 a.m., Erik Scott of the Los Angeles Fire Department said. The bicyclists were taken to various area hospitals.
“All I just said was watch out. I saw everybody get dragged. Everybody got dragged like a bowling ball,†witness Alex Zamora said.
The group, called the “Koreatown Riders,†was riding together as part of a weekly late night bike ride that began in the Westlake District.
Christine Elizabeth Dahab. 27, was arrested and booked for driving under the influence, the LAPD said. She is being held on a $15,000 bail. Police said Dahab was driving a white Honda Civic at the time of the accident.
Witnesses said Dahab was driving around 60 mph when she plowed through the group.
Police said the cyclists were also partially to blame in the accident for partially blocking the road.
I have never been protected by the LAPD, and I have never even felt like I have been served.
They should just take that out of every oath that any politician and or police officer has to recite during their speeches. LIES I would keep it for teachers and firemen. PROPS TO THEM
I just about got ran over in NOHO by the police after running a light with about 600 others, but they wanted to single me out and smash my bike with their car and shove my face into the pavement. SERVE AND PROTECT
Once harassed by a motorist in Burbank. I followed the car, got the plates, wrote it all down, called the police and was told, if an officer does not see the violation, you cannot report it. OK
I WILL GO RUN SOMEONE OVER(NOT A PD OFICER) AND SINCE THERE WAS NO OFFICER TO SEE THE INCIDENT I GET OFF SCOTT FREE.
"I just about got ran over in NOHO by the police after running a light with about 600 others, but they wanted to single me out and smash my bike with their car and shove my face into the pavement. SERVE AND PROTECT"
Please contact me at 35128@lapd.lacity.org Since you have alledged misconduct by LAPD officers I will take your complaint if you have not made one already.
P.S. please let me know if you made a complaint yet. If I do not hear from you I will generate a complaint based on what you posted and someone will attempt to contact you for additional details.
"Police say the cyclists were at the park after hours, and they found evidence of alcohol, condoms and marijuana where the group was hanging out. Bikes are not allowed in the park area and the riders were hanging out in the first lane of vehicle traffic, which makes them partially at fault, according to police."
Sgt. Krumer is doing a good job of following up on this and keeping us informed, and venting at him if it isn't even his department that made the statements or is conducting the investigation might not be helpful.
JB responding to a comment by feelingrandy
06.16.11 - 4:05 pm
SGT K,
This was about 3 years ago and I am over it, there is nothing I want more for a PD division than to leave me alone. I don't want a record, I don't want my name on any piece of paper. They already fucked with me enough. This was normal back then for NOHO and Burbank rides. They would bring out the Ghetto Bird and light us up. Someone would get arrested about every large ride 300+. I was not drunk, I was not doing anything but riding in the middle of the pack, I also was wearing a BRIGHT piece of clothing, which made it easy to pick me out and make sure they didn't lose me in the sea of bicycles they were racing and chasing through at the time. When they ran their car in front of me to cut me off, there were other cyclist being endangered at the same time.
Lets get back to the real issue and not get side-tracked.
Oh yeah, the other day I found a condom near the Chandler bike path in Burbank. So if anyone needs to get outta something, take a condom with you, you can say you found a condom near the scene. Disregard, you can most likely find a used condom within about a 100 foot radius anywhere in LA.
I do appreciate all that you do for the info and the community here, however one good cop trying to do good, doesn't make up for the rest.
parlorbikes responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.16.11 - 4:19 pm
Prayers go out to all those involved, whether hit or not... it must of been a traumatizing experience...
@trickmilla, u my homie and all but I have to disagree on this statement...
"i assume this was not intentional."
I once made the wrong decision to DUI and luckily was caught by PD before I injured anyone and one thing I learned is that any harm done by a drunk driver was premeditated... and pass this on to all those non-riders who practice DUI.
"When you go out drinking you must plan ahead on how to get home otherwise you are guilty for your actions!!!"
So lapd officers, what would be the sentence in LA for 11+ premeditated assaults with a deadly weapon, and 11+ premeditated attempted murders, + DUI + what ever else???? That would be at least 11 strikes?
My sincere hope is that she goes to jail for a long, long time. Measured in decades at the least.
My prediction is that she will get a few months of parole and not even lose her license. That is what happened to the drunk driver that hit me and paralyzed another innocent victim from the neck down, ending her collegiate swimming career.
We have to fight tooth and claw for the hardest conviction and most brutal sentencing our thus-far pathetic court system can muster.
Please do your best to be mature on this thread, even though you want to vent. It's going to be examined by lawyers and submitted as evidence in this case. If you were involved in this, don't write something you cannot justify at a deposition.
Just my 2 cents on dealing with a bike accident a few years back during Wolpack. Had to do it all, and my posts were printed and documented.
The cyclists are NOT partially to blame for this carnage. Even if they did smoke and drink, they WERE NOT CYCLING! They were waiting in the far right lane, where they belong, with LIGHTS on!
"I saw her first, and then I started calling everybody out, 'Hey everybody, merge right, get out of the bike lanes to the sidewalk,'" said one bicyclist. "She slows down. She sees us, I think, and I could see her engine rev, and she just takes everybody out."
By Elex Michaelson and Amy Powell
BALDWIN VILLAGE, LOS ANGELES (KABC) -- A suspected drunken driver was taken into custody after plowing into a large group of bicyclists in Baldwin Village early Thursday morning. Nearly a dozen people were hurt.
"It was as simple as a bowling ball knocking out a few pins," said witness Fred Armstead.
Related Photos
Driver plows into group of bicyclists
View all 8 photos
Authorities said the female driver, 27-year-old Christine Dahab, told police she was looking down at her phone when she crashed into the bike riders on the 5900 block of West Jefferson Place just before 2 a.m.
The bicyclists, organized by Midnight Ridazz, ride together regularly and were on a routine ride. The group of bicyclists was waiting for friends below the Baldwin Hills scenic overlook at the time of the accident.
"The car just went straight toward the crowd, no swerving, no anything," said witness Cesar Arce.
Witness Kevin Martinez said people were sent flying into the air "like ragdolls."
Another rider said he warned others to get out of the way.
"I saw her first, and then I started calling everybody out, 'Hey everybody, merge right, get out of the bike lanes to the sidewalk,'" said one bicyclist. "She slows down. She sees us, I think, and I could see her engine rev, and she just takes everybody out."
Authorities said 11 people were hurt. Nine of those people were hospitalized, and one of them was listed in critical condition. The victim in critical condition, identified by friends as Roger Lucas, broke the windshield when he landed on the car upon impact.
"A lot of people rushed to the car to make sure she wasn't going to leave, you know, try to stop her, because she was dragging like two kids," said witness Steven Jimenez.
Dahab was arrested on suspicion of DUI, officials said. Her family says she lives in an apartment near the accident scene. She was held on $15,000 bail.
"It appears that they were stopped in traffic" and some who had dismounted to chat with friends technically were pedestrians, said Sgt. David Krumer, the LAPD's bicycle liaison.
Bicyclists have a legal right to use the right traffic lane unless they impede traffic, and pedestrians are barred from traffic lanes, Krumer said. Violators potentially could be cited, he added.
However, drivers have a legal responsibility to exercise caution regardless of the circumstances, Krumer said.
"They're not at fault simply for being out there in the roadway," he said of the cyclists.
Earlier Thursday, police told Eyewitness News evidence of alcohol, condoms and marijuana was found where the group was hanging out.
The accident remains under investigation.
Anyone with information on the incident was urged to contact the LAPD South Traffic Division at (213) 485-7336.
I dont know if anyone has brought this up yet or not... i dont have the three hours to read all of this outrage and anger... What I do know is that the individuals involved can bring civil law suits against Dahab on many different counts and charges... criminal negligence, aggravated assault, and quite a few other things. The misdemeanor she is getting from the city is just the beginning of the legal onslaught she could (will) be facing over the next few years. There are so many medical bills and bikes to pay for and replace. Not to mention the freedom of riding those bikes being taken from them... I think that the civil lawsuit route is the actual way to get this wretch to realize what she has taken away and how much damage she has done to these lovely people... civil law suits
"The cyclists were also partially to blame in the accident for partially blocking the road."
It doesn't matter if there are some cars parked on the side of the road that get hit. Those cars are never at fault. But, if cyclists are waiting on the side of the road for their friends to catch up and they get plowed? ... Of course, the bike riders are to blame... ???????
Real logic or programmed biased cop remark? You decide.
Nevertheless, it IS safer to get off the side of the road if you are not riding... But up a hill in which you have to slow down to stop to catch your breath and wait on the far right for some stragglers to catch up puts you partially to blame? RIDICULOUS!
Oh and anyone who has condoms is obviously doing something wrong...
Many of you know I recently moved to Montana to take a position with a national cycling organization, but I have been so busy moving in, I haven't really kept up with news, etc. So today a co-worker mentions to me, "did you hear about those 100 riders who got killed by a car in K-town?" So I rushed to the MR board, thankfully discovering that no one had died, but all the same appalled at this whole situation.
My thoughts and prayers are with all those who were involved. Forgive me for getting broad in scope, but while you are emailing and writing letters to local government officials, add Ray LaHood to your list, tell him about this incident, and ask him to discourage distracted and drunk driving from his national soapbox. You can comment the US DOT page or on his blog, just google search Ray LaHood (sorry I can't provide a direct address, I have limited internet capability right now).
Let me just say, I am SO glad that what my co-worker said wasn't true, and was so relieved to see that none of the ridazz, who I've ridden with, love, and miss were killed. But I am so saddened by their injuries and wish you all a speedy recovery. I am with you all in spirit.
Is it possible for you to explain why the driver wasn't booked on (multiple) assault with a deadly weapon or at the very least assault charges when a number of people were transported to the hospital?
Also, why was her DUI arrest a misdemeanor and not a felony?
The LAPD has taken on the initial investigation, however they will be handing the case to Culver City PD because it technically occurred just within Culver City Borders.
In my opinion, the investigation is already showing strong signs of bias to which I raised objections:
1) the cause of the collision according to preliminary investigation is "pedestrians in the roadway"
if people are mounting up to ride, how are they pedestrians? according to the law, even if people were standing in the street a driver is obligated not to run them over.
2) the detective kept mentioning that the driver was turning a "blind corner"
At the meeting we looked at a google map of the incident. What I found was that the line of sight is a minimum of 500 feet in a straight line. The media has already quoted the LAPD on the "blind corner" and has run with it. It's bullshit.
3) the driver claims she did not have a cellphone
her facebook profile lists a cellphone. it should be pretty simple to see if she texted within the minute before the collision. though is is possible she was in the process of composing a text and did not send.
4) the LAPD detectives claim they have no way of determining whether the suspect was speeding.
EXCUSE ME but the damage to the car and the gaping hole in the windshield, plus the time it took to stop AND the witness accounts would seem to indicate that she was very obviously speeding.
My thoughts are yours Ridazz.
These careless accidents only deepen my disgust, intense disgust for drunk drivers and how lightly their CRIMES are taken by the law in this city.
Powerful letters Krista & others. If you have something to say, say it, because this is absolutely absurd.
Don't let anyone try to find an excuse, convince us, or state that there's ANY reason why she should be driving.
NO LICENSE.
Stay strong, chins up n' voices loud.
<3
The preliminary investigation lists the primary collision factor as "Pedestrians in the Roadway." The investigator indicated that many of the cyclists were not actually on their bikes...but that some of them may have been. This is subject to reclassification at a later time at least for those who were still mounted on thier bikes.
The intial report that the driver admitted she was texting is erroneous. There was no confession. A cellphone was not recovered at the scene but if evidence suggests that she was texting a subpoena of her phone records may be possible.
Culver City will handle the investigation. For those who have not yet provided a witness statement I will post thier contact information tomorrow.
The suspect was booked for misdemeanor DUI. MIsdemeanor due to the fact that her blood alcohal level was not past the legal limit.
How are we supposed to fight this? With words? No one is listening. What do we do?
Sergeant Krumer, are you listening or are you just going to go with the stock "things are under investigation" routine? Do you have the compassion and conviction to make a difference?
I really hope you will put these hard questions to the investigators and push this issue for us. Roadblock's post above is just absolutely one of the most heartbreaking things I have ever read on these boards. Your department has dismissed this case even before the investigation is begun.
The police, law enforcement, the judicial system, our government are failing us; they are all but complicit in this crime. There's not much else I know how to say.
I find it hard to fathom why the LAPD is claiming these kind of extenuating circumstances. Maybe next they'll claim that the cyclists assaulted her car with their bodies.
Seriously, "pedestrians in the roadway" was cause for the collision? is the LAPD literally eating bullshit for breakfast? There's no way someone can do that much damage TO PEOPLE and have it be seriously looked at as a "they were in the wrong place" situation.
WHY IS THE LAPD CONDONING SUCH RECKLESS BEHAVIOR?
WHY DO THE WORDS "CYCLIST" AND "PERSON" SEEM TO BE INCONGRUENT IN THE EYES OF THE PD??
I actually do want answers to these questions. I am outraged.
kryxtanicole responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.16.11 - 8:38 pm
So when I'm driving and I see a pedestrian in the roadway there fair game to run over ?
When I'm driving my 4x4 and a car is going slower than I like it's fair game to run them
off the road ? So am I to understand that having a larger vehical makes me in the right ?
This seems to be what law enforcement is saying about this situation.
Dedicated818 responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.16.11 - 8:54 pm
We, the people, need to start removing those in powers one by one, whether it be our regional politician or our Police Chief. We need to demonstrate and show them that the ones with the actual power are us, the constituents of this city. We need to reach more people and we start by reaching out to those friends of ours who are non-riders and our family members, as well as all their friends. We are not just cyclists! We're also your co-workers, neighbors, brothers/sisters, friends, etc.
This is outrageous. I remember when the LAPD tried booking me on a DUI when I wasn't even in the car, nor did I have the keys, and witnesses also confirmed this. They quickly arrested me, booked me and threw me in jail. Only after months and months, and many days of losing work and money, did I finally get somewhat of an outcome (I took their best plea bargain after almost a year and a half of going back and forth to court) I could stomach. Now I wonder if maybe there had been a cyclists anywhere nearby, maybe things would have been easier or gone a whole lot smoother?
Everyone of my family members and friends will be emailing the mayor, the DA's office. I'm going to try to have more people do the same and everyone else should do the same. One way our another our voices will be heard.
Maybe all cyclists should carry a card of a 24hr lawyer they could contact who can come to the scene of the crime and help when LAPD's worst arrive. I know this is probably not something very plausible but it would be nice. This way they won't berate the victims and spew out biased information that will slander and have the public perceive cyclists in a negative light, before all the facts have been laid out.
So this didn't happen in the City of Los Angeles, it happened in Culver City? So it's under the Culver City Police jurisdiction? Anytime these incidents happen outside of LA, like Beverly Hills or West Hollywood and now Culver City, it just seems the politicians in those areas don't care about bicyclists or their well-being. So basically, will the Culver City police put the kind of resources necessary into the investigation of this incident? Probably not.
What is needed is a 24 hour on call Public Relations person. The media ends up getting information from many sources, before the true story actually is known. You need a PR person to do the talking, who can find out the facts and then convey to all the media outlets before they latch onto erroneous information....like the condom thing. WTF?!!
sgrant responding to a comment by July
06.16.11 - 9:21 pm
I mean someone can see an opportunity here, right? Whether a PR person or a lawyer. The media, with being the media, should really try harder at giving the public relevant and accurate information.
July responding to a comment by sgrant
06.16.11 - 9:29 pm
I'm sitting in the hospital with one of the people involved and I'm disgusted to read some bullshit pedestrians in the road. Hearing what happened from someone who just got mowed down is un fucking real... I'm not going to say what I heard .. But I promise it you it sounds a lot different from the news and the nonsense they are saying. She ruined peoples everyday lives.. People I see every single monday and weekend.. Holy shit dude.
Stay pissed, Ridazz. don't let the media, dumb-shit public comments nor cops diminish your reason to be angry. You do not need to trust the system. Having a job does not mean it is done well, let alone that it is legitimate. Your anger is worthwhile. Your intuitions are meaningful. Your skepticism is needed.
CVC 22350. No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed
greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather,
visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the
highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of
persons or property.
Colliding with 11+ persons who were standing still would be prima facie evidence that Dahab's driving was not reasonable or prudent, would it not? Sending a person to the hospital in critical condition is surely evidence that her speed endangered the safety of that person, correct?
According to accounts here and from viewing photos posted from the scene, it seems reasonable that at least some of the persons involved were standing in the unmarked crosswalk at Jefferson and Hetzler. Any person on a bicycle would need to stop in the road to yield to a pedestrian, correct? And if a bicycle (a vehicle) was stopped for a pedestrian then Dahab would not be permitted to overtake and pass that bicycle.
21950. (a) The driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection, except as otherwise provided in this chapter. (b) The provisions of this section shall not relieve a pedestrian from the duty of using due care for his or her safety. No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close as to constitute an immediate hazard. No pedestrian shall unnecessarily stop or delay traffic while in a marked or unmarked crosswalk. (c) The provisions of subdivision (b) shall not relieve a driver of a vehicle from the duty of exercising due care for the safety of any pedestrian within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection.
21951. Whenever any vehicle has stopped at a marked crosswalk or at any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection to permit a pedestrian to cross the roadway the driver of any other vehicle approaching from the rear shall not overtake and pass the stopped vehicle.
So, how is it that "Pedestrians in the Roadway" is the primary factor? How are Dahab's actions not the primary factors?
Black Bart responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.16.11 - 10:06 pm
I don't even know man I just listened and glad people are still alive. Very badly hurt.. One person is in surgery, another is waiting and I heard someone is in a coma.
I don't even know man I just listened and glad people are still alive. Very badly hurt.. One person is in surgery, another is waiting and I heard someone is in a coma.
Your analysis seems sound and I can not offer a satisfactory explaination. I can however advise that if you disagree with the preliminary findings to contact Culver City PD and request a review and if appropriate a revision of the primary collision factor.
If you have any comments about this case or want to let Culver City PD know how you feel about the Primary Collision Factor, this is the direct contact form for their Chief of Police, Don Pedersen:
Is every officer out there dense or u guys really eating d above suggested menu for breakfast?
Yes get this shit straight, starting with d preliminary collision factor lapd gave ccpd. people almost died.
I am assuming this is why lapd officers didn't address my questions also above. They put such a fake-front in front of the media telling me to conact lapd liasons with any concern, yeah right....
Y don't they tell us why d drunk bioch didn't get fellony charges for the attack she planned all night?
I don't know how scum like this can sleep at night?
"I saw her first, and then I started calling everybody out, 'Hey everybody, merge right, get out of the bike lanes to the sidewalk,'" said one bicyclist. "She slows down. She sees us, I think, and I could see her engine rev, and she just takes everybody out."
By Elex Michaelson and Amy Powell (reporters on the scene)
BALDWIN VILLAGE, LOS ANGELES (KABC)
Can you get this persons' name? His eyewitness account contradicts Christina's statement that she was on the phone.
I understand the anger here, but it's best to direct it at someone other than Sgt Krumer. It's a good thing he's thick-skinned.
"Pedestrian in Roadway" is pretty goddamn offensive to begin with, BUT keep your focus on CCPD at this point. They're more likely than LAPD to fuck this one up.
If you've been on a night ride and have dealt with CCPD, then you know what I'm talking about.
jericho1ne responding to a comment by shotgunBOOMBOOM
06.17.11 - 12:04 am
So, how is it that "Pedestrians in the Roadway" is the primary factor? How are Dahab's actions not the primary factors?
Because, and I quote from, your post:
21950. (a) The driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection, except as otherwise provided in this chapter. (b) The provisions of this section
shall not relieve a pedestrian from the duty of using due care for his or her safety. No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close as to constitute an immediate hazard. No pedestrian shall unnecessarily stop or delay traffic while in a marked or unmarked crosswalk.
. (c) The provisions of subdivision (b) shall not relieve a driver of a vehicle from the duty of exercising due care for the safety of any pedestrian within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection.
Hate to say it, but I saw all this "Pedestrians in the Roadway" business coming from a mile away. Knew it was coming as soon as I read the barrage of texts from my worried mother at 7 in the morning.
I'm a little foggy on the facts, but I'm inclined to think that if she actually plowed into ELEVEN cyclists, she would have plowed into any damn thing that was obstructing the road at that moment, whether it was cyclists, parked cars, or a brick wall.
May all those injured heal quickly and get back on their bikes quicker.
Um, are you sure that photo album belongs to the driver, or did someone just google her name and find that in the results? What it looks l like is that someone named Christine took a trip to Egypt and happened to visit the town of Dahab (as you can gather from the name of one of those albums). I suppose her last name could also be Dahab, but that seems way less likely.
This whole ordeal sounds so terrible. I can only imagine how horrifying it must have been for those who were there (witnesses and victims, both). The response of the police and the media so far is infuriating, but unfortunately unsurprising.
I grabbed Magnus and Jayro at cedars sanai and headed down with trickmills to grab night footage of this so called "blind corner" and the rest of the crime scene. As we are gathering photos and footage a culver PD car rolls up with 2 of the friendliest detectives. They were so proactive and refreshingly non judgemental! They were stoked we were there with bike lights testing the visibility and testing speeds etc. They explained everything including the boundaries of where LA and culver city merge.
I can tell you first hand, visibility AT MINIMUM IS 500 feet or 1 and a half football fields and that is using only 4 bike lights.
Also the condom bullshit? Figured that out too, while we were there, at least 4 cars pulled up with couples.... They walked up the hill and disappeared. Some were carrying blankets and sacks. Fuck you abc and nbc for trying to bring other bullshit into this tradgedy!
Im at Culver City Police station right now with Jayroe Magnus and Trickmills. Magnus and Jayroe are giving witness statements to the Detectives.
I grabbed Magnus and Jayro at cedars sanai and headed down with trickmills to grab night footage of this so called "blind corner" and the rest of the crime scene. As we are gathering photos and footage a culver PD car rolls up with 2 of the friendliest detectives. They were so proactive and refreshingly non judgemental! They were stoked we were there with bike lights testing the visibility and testing speeds etc. They explained everything including the boundaries of where LA and culver city merge.
I can tell you first hand, visibility AT MINIMUM IS 500 feet or 1 and a half football fields and that is using only 4 bike lights.
Also the condom bullshit? Figured that out too, while we were there, at least 4 cars pulled up with couples.... They walked up the hill and disappeared. Some were carrying blankets and sacks. Fuck you abc and nbc for trying to bring other bullshit into this tradgedy!
Im at Culver City Police station right now with Jayroe Magnus and Trickmills. Magnus and Jayroe are giving witness statements to the Detectives.
Yeah agreed. Sgt Krumer is actually helping out with this by pointing out important issues. He is a good guy. For what its worth I put my name on that.
Roadblock responding to a comment by jericho1ne
06.17.11 - 12:37 am
Nobody has said that anyone suddenly moved out into the path of her car, so your point is moot. 21950 (c) also says that (b) does not relieve the driver from the duty of using due care.
And, 22350. No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed
greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather,
visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the
highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of
persons or property.
So even if she were rounding a blind corner, it is her responsibility to reduce her speed to that which would be reasonable to stop or avoid a collision. She did not. She somehow neglected to see a large group of people in time to brake or swerve, that is the primary cause of this incident.
I liken it to Cabral v. RALPHS GROCERY COMPANY, Cal: Supreme Court 2011. where a motorist crashed into the back of an illegally parked Ralphs truck along a freeway. The motorist was found 90% at fault for hitting the illegal yet stationary truck, which was found only 10% at fault.
So even if the cyclists were not supposed to be where they were,(which is arguable) the driver of the moving vehicle has the primary responsibility to avoid colliding with the immobile.
Black Bart responding to a comment by shotgunBOOMBOOM
06.17.11 - 1:27 am
Nathan's right - that photo album is some random Christine who visited Dahab.
It would appear that the driver's MySpace page disappeared today, but some google fu can get you the cached page, along with references from her friends. I've no idea if she has / had a Facebook presence.
Here's her long dormant twitter feed:
http://twitter.com/#!/1ekg
There's quite a bit of publicly available information out there on her and her family, but it feels way too much like vigilante stalking right now for me to post more. For all we know, she's a good person who made some astoundingly foolish and tragic decisions last night.
I can only hope that she doesn't get some asshole lawyer who tries to blame the victims.
bobdotorg responding to a comment by nathansnider
06.17.11 - 1:31 am
Agreed again, Sgt Krumer is doing a great service by participating here. He is also passing along information, not leading the investigation or deciding fault. Insulting him is just low class.
So even if the cyclists were not supposed to be where they were,(which is arguable) the driver of the moving vehicle has the primary responsibility to avoid colliding with the immobile.
I'm not arguing you on this. I wholeheartedly agree she was primarily responsible in the incident, as I tried to imply through my statement that if she hadn't hit those cyclists she would have hit a brick wall (because she obviously wasn't paying attention).
But, even in the case you cited, that truck, an inanimate object, was still 10% at fault, simply for being there. Parked trucks owe a duty to no one, but people owe a duty to act in a reasonably prudent manner to avoid foreseeable harm to themselves and everyone around them (or those in the zone of danger under the Cardozo view). Standing in the street in the dark creates a foreseeable risk that you will be hit by a car, making you contributorily negligent.
Also, I'm not saying anyone was standing in the street, I wasn't there. It sounds like, from the different reports and stories I've read, that they were mostly off to the side and on the shoulder, at least in the bike path. Now, if everyone was in the bike path, then your whole negligence story changes.
I heard this from one of the victims.... THEY HAD THEIR LIGHTS ON! There were a lot of ridazz there. You make it sound as if they were dressed like ninjas in the dark waiting to get fucking hit by a car. This woman was drunk, just because she blew under the legal limit doesn't mean she wasn't drunk. Roadblock says there is approximately 500 ft of distance to where she could have slowed down. As soon as a ride leader calls out "get on your bikes" the first thing we do is turn on our lights, the next step is "rolling". If it had been a car and not a group of people the circumstances would be different but you can't kill a car, wall, tree... But you can kill a group of cyclist. What happened was just one of those fucked up things that happen. The only person at fault here is the driver that drank and drove and wasn't paying attention to the road. whether she was on a phone or changing a song on her ipod or finger banging herself, she still was going too fast and took her eyes off of the road. According to one of the victims I spoke with it all happened so fast there was no time to react. "They yelled car back and the next thing I knew I was on the top of a car."
Tyrito responding to a comment by shotgunBOOMBOOM
06.17.11 - 2:36 am
Yes, Sgt. Krumer has always been helpful. I am just pointing out that there is a definite bias coming from the Culver City P.D. that is unwarranted.
All of us who ride and have have been confronted with Culver City PD know well that they are hell bent set out against us who choose to do group rides. This case must not be muted by their bias claims that have no basis in reality or even in the eyes of the law.
gado_gado responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.17.11 - 5:09 am
I think everyone should STOP talking about the driver. She will get some form of punishment, knowing our justice system we can all expect the worst. But thats our system. She will be represented by lawyers from her insurance company who will do whatever they can to pay as little as possible for the victims hospital bills.
Most of these heavily injured young adults probably dont have insurance. They will incur huge medical bills from this.
We need to focus on overturning the blatant BIAS in the investigation and media reporting of this. A witch hunt against the driver is pointless and will only be used against the victims.
Roadblock responding to a comment by bobdotorg
06.17.11 - 8:19 am
We should be lodging complaints against the reporters and find out who they sourced for the condoms allegation. Thats just fucking ludicrous!!
Lets make a list of new outlets that reported that with the names of the reporters and their emails.
Also, as far as i understand there were NO beer cans or bottles on the street from the ridazz. Anything that was found was up at the vista point and that point is obviously a drinking place for a LOT of people.
Is it possible for you to explain why the driver wasn't booked on (multiple) assault with a deadly weapon or at the very least assault charges when a number of people were transported to the hospital?
Also, why was her DUI arrest a misdemeanor and not a felony?
Assault with a deadly weapon or ADW is a specific intent crime. This means that there must be some evidence that she intended to use her vehicle as a weapon for the intended purpose of causing injury. In this case the evidence suggests that she was inattentive or horribly negligent in her duty to exercise due care...but nothing to suggest intent.
With regards to the misdeanor, her blood alcohol level was not high enough to support a felony charge.
Hope this sheds a little light on how charges are determined and filed.
I'm down to do anything we can do as a group to help our messages be heard, not just to the police but also to the media. I don't know if any change can actually be made in the media system though when they purposely want to keep things sensational on TV to purposely shock people, even if it includes misleading info.
Antranik responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.17.11 - 9:56 am
First, Sgt. Krumer, I do want to thank you for working WITH cyclists. I do appriciate all the things you have done and do for us. However, can't this case be classified as negligently causing bodily injury to another with a deadly weapon? End of the day, that's still assult with a deadly weapon. Assult is also has a definition of when someone feels their personal space is violated. I can't speak for the victims but I could only imagine how violated they feel.
Rosiekins responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.17.11 - 10:00 am
Elex Michaelson
Contact: ABC7 Broadcast Center
Attn: Elex Michaelson
500 Circle Seven Drive
Glendale, CA 91201
(818) 863-7777
Email him/ the station here: http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/feature?section=resources/inside_station&id=5788340
IF there is one thing that really throws me off about this case is the media around it, especially from this guy. Yes, the police are currently investigating the situation and justice will be served especially through civil court. BUT everyone is so naive in this country that they will believe anything that the news reports. I have addressed my anger to abc7 via twitter and email. Those who know me know that in order for me to make a complaint about something it is because I AM ANGRY.
While certainly people suffered as a result of what appears to be clear negligence, the issue is whether it is criminal negligence. That will be a determination for the City or District attorneys involved. When there is no criminal negligence than its the civil courts that will handle.
Keep in mind that the driver is not getting off scott free. There is still the DUI and what I anticipate will be significant financial and personnal reprecussions.
Thanks Sgt Krumer for staying active in this forum I think it is valuable.
Sadly we will see this scenario again. cyclist, pedestrians, innocent people in cars all lose to drunk drivers. The reality is society and their law makers have accepted the casualties in the insane notion that people can drive when intoxicated.
Our culture encourages drinking and driving and it is a sad fact our laws do nothing to stop it.
Laws need to be changed. If you hit someone with alcohol in your systems it should be punished severely. Our thoughtful legislatures are tough on drugs but alcohol gets a pass. We need to focus on changing our laws.
I've met Sgt Krumer and many of the bicycle LAPD officers on Critical Mass. They are professional, nice and cool. They support bicyclists and the rights of bicyclists. I feel much safer riding in the City of Los Angeles, then say Santa Monica or Culver City, simply because LAPD has made the effort to reach out to cyclists and support us.
sgrant responding to a comment by Rosiekins
06.17.11 - 10:32 am
I tried reaching the ABC reporter, but I got his voicemail. He said it's best to email him, which is exactly what I'm doing now, asking him where he got his "facts":
Just throwing this out there, as myself and a lot of ridazz use the PlanetBike super flash tail lights - their website lists the visibility for the 1/2-watt Blazeâ„¢ LED plus 2 eXtreme LEDs as "up to 1 mile"
We know she had visibility of the ridazz(wearing lights!) at 500+ feet away, made no attempt to stop (no skid marks) and then kept driving(!!!) after hitting the first person. Seems like assault with a deadly weapon to me, or at the very least gross criminal negligence.
"The distinction between recklessness and criminal negligence lies in the presence or absence of foresight as to the prohibited consequences. Criminal negligence is the failure to foresee and to allow otherwise avoidable dangers to manifest. In some cases this failure can rise to the level of willful blindness where the individual intentionally avoids adverting to the reality of a situation. Criminal negligence becomes "gross" when the failure to foresee involves a "wanton disregard for human life."
We want felony charges, we want jail time, we want justice!
At the scene they use a small device called a PAZ that gives a preliminary reading. At the station she was tested on the professional grade machine that is utilized for court...on that machine she did not blow a .08. Now of course the argument is that by the time she got back to the station her blood alcohol level dropped.
They cancalculate what her BAL was at the time of the collision and if warranted they can always refile it as a felony at the discreation of the District Attorney.
Actions that come from a DUI accident are premeditated, they knew they were going to drink and they should have planned accordingly.... Her plan was to drive around DRUNK ENDANGERING INNOCENT PEOPLE!!!
How is it that she is not accountable for this? you don't accidentally get drunk!
It is currently the law, or does the law say you actually have to kill someone to have criminal charges brought against you? I gotta look that up my self....
If it were a bunch of cops on the side of the road the outcome would be quite different. They would have shot up the car and probably killed the driver.
Assault with a deadly weapon (her car) is different for people on bikes than it is for cops.
Just FYI. At one time an LAPD officer would be justified in shooting at a car that was speeding at him/her based on being threatened by the driver's use of the vehicle as a Deadly Weapon. The current policy is that an officer is expected to step out of the way of the car and can only shoot at the driver if they are being threatened by a weapon other than the car.
Jumping out of the way of a car heading towards you is a totally reasonable thing to do. Not really that easy to do when you are standing/sitting on a bike in a large group of people. But that kind of logic would mess with blaming the cyclists wouldn't it...
seanbonner responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.17.11 - 11:27 am
Does anyone know Carissa's last name? She's at UCLA Medical right now, but you can't pay anyone a visit unless you know their full name. If you know her last name, please email jericho1ne@yahoo.com.
The last thing we need to do is harass the driver, if you have information about the incident please contact the detective handling the case. If you have a different opinion about the incident please contact the media. Let's be adults about this and let our voices be heard. Bothering the driver will make it harder to pursue her in a legal matter in civil court.
I am always upset when I hear about bicyclists getting hit by cars, it makes me want to scream....but,... Let's not act like a lynch mob. This isn't 1850. We have laws, law enforcement, prosecutors, lawyers, judges and a judicial system. Everyone is presumed innocent. Everyone has a right to "due process"...including terrorists. So we must let the process unfold.
Nowadays defense lawyers attack the victims. Their lifestyle, their politics, their drinking and drug habits. So let's be careful about what we say about the victims, it will be used by the suspects defense lawyers.
Right now the criminal phase of this process will unfold. Let's not create an environment of blind hatred, because that is how we are treated. Justice will be served. We need to let it happen without seeking out ways to retaliate or harrass the suspect. She is innocent until proven guilty. That our system. We need to respect it.
I would never harrass the driver. I'm pretty sure that would be illegal. I just wanted some more info about her?
Is this her first DUI?
Criminal record?
revolution responding to a comment by feelingrandy
06.17.11 - 1:02 pm
Such a poor job from someone who's professional duty is to report news and not biased or irrelevant information to the rest of the public. Infuriates me to no end. It's why I try to watch as little as possible of the "idiot box."
He was working (I assume) the late shift last night. So he probably won't be in till later today.
We ran into the CC detectives last night at the crime scene around 10:30 pm UNLIKE the LAPD detectives, they were there (like us) to check and see the visibilty of the so called "blind" corner. You know, common sense type shit that you check before conclusions are made.....
It's probably best that no information regarding her gets out.
As fumed as many are around here, the last thing we need is some unknown renegade going out and blowing this thing into deeper water.
there is a street light directly overhead of where the cyclists were waiting, and one of the original reports stated the light was not lit. Was the street light on when you were at the scene last night? this should provide plenty of light below...
diesel responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.17.11 - 1:21 pm
just pulled this from the LAPD code of conduct book... wow
police investigative conduct code 2311.45
a) In a cyclist/pedestrian vs. automobile vehicle incident officers are instructed to exhaust all possible scenarios that absolve vehicle driver of responsibility in part or in whole before beginning to consider the cyclist/pedestrian point of view. Officers are to ignore any testimony that would incriminate driver in anyway.
b) if condoms are found within 500ft of the scene of the accident please alert the media.
Roadblock responding to a comment by seanbonner
06.17.11 - 1:27 pm
PS. Elex Michaelson responds with the quickness. Here's what he wrote back:
Mr. Cardoza,
I'm sorry you feel that way and I appreciate you reaching out to me.
Obviously, this was a very unfortunate situation on so many levels.
As a professional, I have a duty to explain the story from all sides. Throughout the day, I featured interviews with at least 10 different cyclists telling their stories. The overwhelming majority of my reporting was their accounts.
We also have an obligation to tell the investigating authorities' version of what happened--as we do in all our reporting. Several LAPD officers were repeatedly telling us about the beer bottles, condoms, marijuana, and the fact cyclists admitted to being in the street. They also showed us the signs saying people aren't supposed to be in the park after dark and no bicycles were allowed there at all.
One officer briefing us even said "there's a whole other side to this story the cyclists aren't telling you."
I understand some of those items may have been there from before.
Never in my reporting did I say one side was right or wrong. I even countered the LAPD's suggestions with the rebuttal from bicyclists who said they were being safe and wearing lights.
Clearly the LAPD isn't always right on everything, but it is our job to report the facts as each sides see it, not get personally involved, and let the viewer make up his or her mind. That is the reason I got into this business.
Maybe your frustration would be better directed at the several officers on scene sharing the information with us.
We strive every day to be as fair as possible and do our best to get it right. Even if you disagree with me, hopefully you now understand where I'm coming from.
We appreciate you watching KABC in the past and hope you give us another chance.
can we organize a fucking crankmob sized march on city hall demanding the justice this bitch deserves. i want her to sit in a cell breathing solely old tube air for many years.
I wasn't there and I have no way of knowing whether the driver was on her cellphone or not, but numerous studies have shown that using a cellphone (even a hands-free device) while driving is a greater impairment to safe driving than moderate alcohol intoxication.
When are the laws going to catch up to this reality?
a march to city hall is being planned. BUT it is not about this one individual. we are not a lynch mob. justice would be served when the SYSTEM is changed.
When the system respects pedestrians and cyclists more than people speeding around in 4000lb cages then justice will truly be served.
from what I could tell, yes at certain times... while the detectives were showing us the evidence, a truck parked a ways down near the bend and he did say they shouldnt be there so it's possible that after a certain time the parking expires.... maybe google maps will show it.
I know right!!! They could have been stopping to fix a flat in the same spot and it could have happened. Any number of things could have lead to the being in that same spot without them in the park.
"I almost got in a fist fight with a bunch of these fucking assholes in Downtown last year. I was running late and was walking to my car and these fucking hipster scum were blowing through a red light at Main and 7th. It was my green, so I just casually walked through them without looking."
July, could you please email this idiot back and ask him, as politely and nonchalantly as possible, whether he even bothered to ask the obvious followup question, to wit: "Why are you telling me about the condoms? Do you think they contributed to the accident somehow?" For that matter, did it not occur to him as a journalist to ask himself whether something like that could possibly be pertinent to the story and therefore worth repeating?
PC responding to a comment by July
06.17.11 - 2:14 pm
"The problem is if the Police who are responsible for collecting the evidence are clearly prejudice against cyclist then how are they going to get justice or be treated fairly. "
EXACTLY!!!
Girl Power responding to a comment by sack or crack you choose
06.17.11 - 2:15 pm
"The problem is if the Police who are responsible for collecting the evidence are clearly prejudice against cyclist then how are they going to get justice or be treated fairly. "
EXACTLY!!!
Girl Power responding to a comment by sack or crack you choose
06.17.11 - 2:15 pm
For instance, there are condoms, evidence of alcholo and drugs near parks and lookouts, that is a common fact. Why the police had to ever "go there" is beyond me. Their only reason would be to defemate the character of the people who got hit, one of whom is a phd in urban planning, she's sitting in the hospital with two broken legs...
The POLICE continue to propagate the MYTH that cyclists are thugs, they are not. There are lawyers, doctors, paramedics, military, film industry people and executives on many, many MR rides. I can testify to who they are if needed to add credibility to MR in general.
That was one of the main points of emphasis in my original email. I questioned how that was pertinent to the tragedy that took place earlier that morning and why it was important that the public be aware of it and apparently he just repeated everything he was told, putting aside his own good judgement.
I definitely want to see if he somehow managed to use his brain and get the names of the officers who gave him the quotes and information.
July responding to a comment by PC
06.17.11 - 2:24 pm
following up to what PC said...in other words, tell that Journalist how worthless his investigative reporting is. I mean c'mon, condoms? Let me guess, she couldn't brake because the condoms were stuck on her wheels. Just as these news outlets have a forum to report the news, we the people need to use our resources to fight back against crappy journalism. Use it folks, make video rebuttals and post them on all the news channel forums, post them on youtube, post them on facebook. If enough people call out these news organizations for their crappy reporting, they will eventually take notice. Fight the powers that be!
The car culture police and media want to paint a picture of a pretty, sweet girl who accidentally ran into a group of Hell's Angeles on bicycles. When nothing could be further from the truth.
You can find condoms and evidence of alcohol and drugs around all parks and lookout. It does not mean they belong to the riders anymore than they do to a nice family using the area for a picnic.
I hope someone copied all the pics of Christine Dahab getting plastered on her profile link before she takes them down! :o)
I've been as polite as humanly possible, considering the situation, and have employed more restraint than I'd like to during our exchanges, all the while making him aware that his journalistic judgement is off-base and needs major readjusting. That when a person is in his position of providing the general public with "news", and I use this term loosely since nowadays a lot of it is just gossip, you have a civil duty to provide the most accurate and relevant as well as pertinent information you've gathered, not just what will make the story more interesting or give it more of an edge.
July responding to a comment by ridetime
06.17.11 - 2:42 pm
The idea is to drive (no pun intended) people to your story. The report is driven by competition and competition is fierce. His job depends on it, his company relies on it and the advertisers benefit from it. The reality is, sensationalism sells. We don't like it, but it's fact. The only way to fight back is to make yourself heard.
Start a Midnight Ridazz investigative reporting team. Go out and report the same way the news does only this time tell it from the bikers perspective.
If ABC says "Omg it was condoms" On MR news say "In an attempt by ABC news to point out that Condoms played a roll we here at MR news question the relevance and hereby give you the facts"
Beat them at their own game..."Fight the powers that be"
Such sensationalistic journalism! What evidence do they have that the condoms and beer were the cyclists? Whouldnt it be just as likely that the driver was up on the hill drinking and having sex and then walked down the hill to where her car was parked and then drove into the riders? I mean she was the one who was drunk, why didnt they jump to that conclusion?
The officers mentioned the condoms, I believe, to stress the point both sides were not following all the rules that night. I certainly understand your point about its direct relevance to the crash itself, but that is what they said.
As for our main source from the LAPD yesterday morning, it was a veteran officer who asked us not to use his name on camera. I know that's a frustrating response for you to hear. It was especially frustrating for us as well on scene.
If you have questions for the LAPD, the lead agency heading up the initial investigation was the Valley Traffic Division. Their number is (818) 644-8000.
Again, I'm sorry about your involvement in this horrific tragedy. Best of luck to you going forward!
Elex Michaelson
July responding to a comment by ridetime
06.17.11 - 3:37 pm
I wonder if good old ABC doucheman would consider the following:
What if the situation was a news van and it's crew were illegally parked on the side of the road reporting and this negligent driver ran into them. Would he consider that he was parked illegally and was the primary factor in the collision?
So this "reporter" was given a piece of information that had no direct relevance to the story by an officer who didn't want his name associated with it, and felt it was worth using in his story.
sure it would of been a different story if it was a group of say joggers that got plowed instead of bike riders. what's wrong with today's self-serving society
or if, say a cyclist or person had fallen and a group of people were rendering aid... anyways, the media managed to get everyone talking about just how much these cyclists deserved to be hit.
Roadblock responding to a comment by wolveskillsheep
06.17.11 - 3:58 pm
Sgt. David Krumer. Could you please investigate the source of the allegations that condoms were found at the scene? Can you find out which officer reported that to elex.michaelson@abc.com ?
The crime is when you basically intentionally hit someone else.
The cause of action in civil court for assalt means when you intend to make someone think that you will hit them and they are scared you will hit them.
The cause of action in civil court for battery is when you intend to cause an offensive toutching and you actually toutch someone.
Easy, boycott certain movies by filim companies that own stock in NBC, ABC, (Warmer Bros etc) and products on "Infotainment" news channels. I've been doing it for years. Trust me, you're not missing anything. :o)
The answer to your question can not be obtained by a casual inquery but only through a formal process. Since there is a potential the officer may face some negative employer action there are protocols that need to be followed. If you want to make a formal complaint you can do so but will have to articulate misconduct. You can call 1-800-339-6868.
why is it important for police to determine the character of victims? seriously, the discussion shouldnt be about whos at fault. the person with the weapon is at fault.
ive seen the reports of the guy mentioning beer and condoms. after i heard that i had no choice but to assume a drunken orgy had ensued even though i absolutely knew thats not the case. the officer(s) who decided that was an important piece of information should be chastised to say the least.
but more importantly i want to hear the opinion of our lady christine. i dont mean to sympathize with the enemy, but the way i see it, with the 11 people injured, 12 lives are in serious shock right now - hers included. i drive and i cant imagine how much depression id go through if i even clipped a bicycle. in the very least she should have medical bills to pay for a looooong time.
"why is it important for police to determine the character of victims? seriously, the discussion shouldnt be about whos at fault. the person with the weapon is at fault.
ive seen the reports of the guy mentioning beer and condoms. after i heard that i had no choice but to assume a drunken orgy had ensued even though i absolutely knew thats not the case. the officer(s) who decided that was an important piece of information should be chastised to say the least."
The officer may have been sexually attracted to the driver (she looks like a cheerleader) and was not being objective. He wanted to paint a picture of a sweet girl accidentally hitting bicycle-gangster-rapists-hoodlums, etc.
She's the menace, but, unfortunately the male (I'm assuming it's a male in his late twenties to mid thirties by his bias and the appearance of the driver) was unable to see the reality of the situation.
"The answer to your question can not be obtained by a casual inquery but only through a formal process. Since there is a potential the officer may face some negative employer action there are protocols that need to be followed. If you want to make a formal complaint you can do so but will have to articulate misconduct. You can call 1-800-339-6868." Sgt. Krumer
Excellent! Roadblock, maybe you can give this number it's own thread so it stands out and more of us can complain. :)
so, we're all in agreement here? no Ridazz were boneing in the middle of the road without the proper reflective gear? very good. now that this issue is out of the way, we can move on to more pressing matters.
it's ALL being taken care of.... so many people have come together. obviously the condom comment was only meant to discredit the group who was riding that night and it was perpetuated by the reporters. this is important to get to the bottom of because it is malicious and show LAPD bias in the investigation. This is a very important issue to clear up since the liability will determine who pays the lionshare of the medical bills. If it can be found that the LAPD had a bias against the cyclists then maybe that ridiculous "cause of the accident" prelim determination can be reversed.
Roadblock responding to a comment by animosity
06.17.11 - 6:31 pm
yeah, but you show me a side of road that has no condoms or beer bottles and I'll consider that clear patch of earth proof that there is a god.
not that I'm not completely outraged by this portrayal of Ridazz as a deviant bunch, but it seems clear that this info is irrelevant , unless they were waving the condoms and bottles around at the time of the 'accident'. there's no proof that any of these things came from the group.
I do like the idea of documenting all the litter everywhere, just in case, along with the distance tests. also, formally requesting the information on which officer made the statement to the news.
is it possible that this secret officer doesn't exsist and that it's completely sensationalism? that would prove that either the officer (if this is true) or the media intentially corrupted the investigation.
what else can we (i) do to help out?
by the way... your the best. thanks for all the work you're doing on this
animosity responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.17.11 - 6:56 pm
perhaps I'm naive to be in disbelief of this, but they really determined that a drunk, texting woman behind the wheel, rear-ending another vehicle(s) is the fault of those rear-ended? this wouldn't be the determination if she ran into another car...
"yeah, but you show me a side of road that has no condoms or beer bottles and I'll consider that clear patch of earth proof that there is a god."
yup that's exactly the point... so why do they report it then? what is the relevance? other than to paint a picture in the reporters and the public's mind. It's sinister. It needs to be uncovered.
Her's another reporter sourcing the LAPD on the "condoms found" story:
Incidentally like I said before... when we were out there I saw three or four cars show up with couples who parked and walked up the stairs. some had blankets and coolers. it's a common place for people to go and do their thing... maybe that's why there were condoms in the area but again the comment is obviously put out there as the reporter said to even the story up in the public mind. "well they were both doing bad things" type of bullshit.
that don't fly. people are on this case looking out for one another because the city isn't and neither are these drunken drivers.
Roadblock responding to a comment by animosity
06.17.11 - 7:04 pm
I see what you mean... I haven't seen news reports, only read articles and spoken with friends. that comment - completely unnecessary. but it does sound like the misdemeanor charge was a result of the riders 'who stopped to rest and were standing in the road, chatting', which is also an assumption, and from what I can tell, irrelevant.
you just can't hit people/stuff in the road with your car. it's always your fault. imagine those times in driving class where they say you should drive carefully enough that any obstacles may be avoided. enough distance behind the next car on the freeway, slow enough to keep from killing the kid chasing the ball...
there is NO reason anyone should run into 100 cyclists. there is NO way to claim you didn't see them. perhaps someone had fallen and was injured, as if a car had broken down, and those standing around were offering that person protection like flares or cones. perhaps this large group was moving slowly while merging onto the road, similar to a merging big-rig. there are many reasons for them to have been slowed or stopped. none of which point to their fault!
animosity responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.17.11 - 7:25 pm
Thanks. I just saw the video you posted and was about to start looking for her contact information as well. I understand how petty the comment is but in can be magnified in the public's eye and really defame what we Midnight Ridazz stand for and I just can't stand by that.
July responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.17.11 - 7:58 pm
by the by... I called the number... a very friendly officer gave me this number to call: (310) 202.4545 (west traffic division)
she said they are the division handling the case and that I can call and request the name of the supervisor/officer who spoke with the media on the scene.
Seems, perhaps LAPD might clarify, that South Traffic would have respsonded as the incident occured in that bureau's area. Which turned out to be Culver City PD's area. ABC7 operates out of Burbank or something so perhaps that explains their valley contact offering is merely an innacuracy rather than an attempt to give somebody "the runaround" in regards to their condomgate source.
icbx responding to a comment by DJwheels
06.17.11 - 8:11 pm
that number was a fax... i called back and was offered the number of the lt. that handles media relations. he may be able to shed some light on the way on-scene discussions with the media are dealt with, how they are documented and the process of releasing info on the officers involved.
he won't be in the office until business hours, and because it is his personal line, rather than a general line, I'm not going to post it. if you'd like the info, hit me up... Anne dot Tinomy at gmail dot com.
crappy thing about media is that they like to hide behind sources. i wouldn't be surprised if this was just an off-handed/off the record 'whewie! look at all these condoms and bottles!' comment that wasn't even directly related to the accident.
Feel free to comment on all her videos about how great of a reporter she is. Typical LA blonde woman, trying to get ahead by any means necessary, including dirty journalism.
Can we get some info on how the injured are doing? There is suppose to be two critically injured riders and one supposedly in a coma. Then some lesser injuries but I'm betting just as traumatic.
There's a link to her site with a contact form as well. I've e-mailed both her and Elex asking again for the source of the "condoms" information but no word back yet. More soon..
It isn't just the "latex libel" that is shady here, and in need of being exposed as sensationalist, bias-inducing bullshit. There's also Elex Michaelson's parroting of the statement by police that the riders were in the park after hours. Remember how smugly he pointed to the sign?
The crash DID NOT HAPPEN IN THE PARK. It happened on a public roadway, Jefferson Boulevard. That's very important, because the fact that they may have recently been in a closed park has no more bearing on the question of responsibility for that car plowing into them than it would have if they had just left a gambling den or a whorehouse--or, for that matter, if they had just walked out of an H&R Block office having just E-filed 100 inaccurate tax forms. Elex Michaelson and his hairdo may not be capable of understanding the difference between relevance and irrelevance, but I think most of you are. Don't lose sight of it!
Thanks to Jesse (Aktive), Lane (Bentstrider), and Jesus for providing
me her last name. Otherwise they wouldn't have divulged her
whereabouts at the information desk.
I visited the young girl (who's name I wont mention publicly at the request of her family) at UCLA Medical today around 6pm. Her dad
was napping on a fold out seat when I walked in. I awkwardly
introduced myself as just another rider to happens to work in the
area. She is still in a medically induced coma, on a respirator,
and all types of IV drips. John, her father, said that quite a few
young riders have paid her a visit since the collision. She had a
full cast on her left leg, and I noticed some autographs on it.
After multiple X-rays and MRIs, it seems like her core organs are
fine. She has various breaks and fractures, so she will probably
require future surgeries on her wrists and face. I did not dare ask
her father about potential brain damage.
Her heart rate rises, her EKG activity intensifies, and her chest
heaves - a sign that she's "waking up". Her upper body does not move
- only her toes and her hands. Her father immediately breaks up our
conversation and steps up to her bedside. He strokes her bruised
right hand for a few minutes and talks to her in a soft tone.
Once the heart rate calms down and EKG mellows out, he sits back down.
He mentions that the only time he's seen a facial reaction from her
is when the nurses move her - that's when she grimaces from the pain.
Her family has been flying in from all over the US and they have
housing in the area, so at least they have the emotional
support they need right now
Her father often fought back tears while
speaking, and I had a feeling that towards the end, he was trying to
question why we do what we do in a roundabout way. We spoke about the
spirit of Midnight Ridazz, and we agreed that all cyclists are fair
game nowadays. It could have been any of us - which is the reason I
gave him for visiting a rider I have never met. Turns out John used
to be a long distance cyclist who dreamt of competing at a high level
in his youth. I awkwardly shake his hand, and told him I'd stop by
again soon.
Aktive suggested we pay her and her father a visit on Father's Day, this
Sunday. Ride from Crank Mob Park to UCLA Medical?
I just gave my report to Detective Newman. Maybe this will elaborate more to everyone what occurred..
We had descended from the hill and waiting for the rest of the group to finish descending the stairs. There were at least 30 riders at the moment, and a few still on their way down. We were waiting on the outermost right lane for more than 10 minutes before the accident occurred. Several cars had passed around us, most of us were on the right lane, while a few people were on the opposite side of the street sitting on the rails next the river path.
I was on the northeast sidewalk facing west when we noticed the car approaching us. Someone from across the street and to the right of me yelled "Car-back".. which is a call for 'move to the right', a car is coming. When we hear car-back, our first instinct when riding is to move to the shoulder lane to allow cars to pass us, so I believe most of the riders did. My eyes kept towards the car, and as it got closer I noticed that it decreased in speed...which led me to believe she was going to stop and go around us - the outermost left lane and the rest of the street was clear. All other cars that had passed us prior to that, had passed through the left lane without a problem and without a need to stop because the lanes were clear, and because we had also yelled "Car-back". I also noticed that we were on a "Right turn only" lane so I was confident that we were not blocking traffic.
Soon after I noticed her slow down. The car sped up, and within seconds everyone was in the ground and the car looked to be speeding up, but then came to a halt. At first, I just stood still not really understanding what had happened and it took me several seconds to process everything. I yelled "Someone call 9-11! Repeatedly." and then ran into the street to see how everyone was. From then on, everything became surreal and blur. I just remember hearing screams and cries from people, bodies on the ground motionless. I feared that some of my friends were dead..
I then ran to the car, she was still in the vehicle. She opened the door, and the only thing I asked her was, "Have you been drinking?" She looked at me with a worried face but answered honestly, and said "Yes, I drank a few."
I ran around to the other side because I realized someone was on the floor. It was Roger, whom had been stuck on the windshield. He was laid out on the ground unconscious. I then remember just running back and forth between the injured and making sure no one was touching them and hoping that everyone was still alive. Maybe one or two minutes after the accident, some of the unconscious riders started moving and attempting to sit up.
I dont remember how much time elapsed between the accident and first response team finally came, but it seemed forever. Probably because I was in shock. As the police came, I made my way towards when I heard one of the riders yell at me, "Stand back! I'm an undercover officer, let me handle this!" And went up to the police and he started explaining to the officers what had happened. The other unit went straight to the vehicle.
I then ran to several of the people and tried to make sure they were talking. Most were.. Roger even cracked a few jokes, but we all knew he was seriously injured. I then sat down with Dana for a couple of minutes until the paramedics asked me to move.
The rest was just watching and having to bear witness of the accident and the aftermath. Bikes totaled, the car totaled, friends lying in the ground screaming. I stayed till about 4:30am and then rode home back to Hollywood.
I hope this sheds more light into the case. Please contact me back when you receive this. Thank you so much!
godmode responding to a comment by gado_gado
06.17.11 - 11:23 pm
I understand why ADW may not apply, which is why I also included in my question the matter of assualt. I know from personal experience that it is possible to be charged with assault for causing much less injury/damage in a non-premeditated fashion.
So, what is the reasoning that she could not be booked for assault charges the night she caused serious injury to multiple people?
This is a logical concern I have. I appreciate your previous and future replies.
nolikedrive actually did a pretty good job of explaining what an assault is above.
California Penal Code 240 PC defines an assault as an unlawful attempt… coupled with a present ability…to commit a violent injury upon another person.
I was once pushed into an officer I was having an argument with by another officer, and once I placed my hands on him (to save me form the fall) I was booked on assault charges. My bail was $20,000 and there was no premeditated or even injury involved. The way things are now laws and their interpretation are at your discretion and vary from case to case. Get yo shit straight.
Bikekowski responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.18.11 - 12:17 am
This is so fucking sad, I'm holding back tears trying to type this right now.
I first ran into Carissa at a Taco Tuesdays just a few, short weeks ago.
She said she was on the ride-circuit for a short time and was getting into the groove of things.
She kept bugging me about how bad-ass my recumbent was and wanted to know how to ride it.
I showed her how to properly mount it and take off on it.
It took some pushes and running alongside, but she did it and never before have I seen someone so happy riding a bicycle and not giving two shits in the world.
It took me back to when I was attempting to teach my own little sister how to ride a bike.
Now with all this going on, I feel like she's become attached to me like another little sister.
I roll back into "near-town" on Monday for various issues, I'm going to drop by if possible and put my own name on that cast.
Too young, and just like the others, she didn't deserve this.
No. I got to spend a couple of days in jail before I was bailed out. Went to court and the charges were dropped to something ridiculously petty. I did get to waste $2000 on bail tho.
Bikekowski responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.18.11 - 1:52 am
someone should log those photos... prob won't be too much longer before they come down.. I'm sure her lawyer will try and remove traces of drunk lifestyle if she didn't blow DUI levels on the test that counts in court..
You know what, the reporters these days are mostly brainless parrots.... the really sinister part about all of this is the officer who put that "condom" comment in the reporter's ears. There were two reporters who parroted the words that I found so this officer was chirping about it.... there really should be a complaint filed.
Sgt. Krumer, you've stepped up to the plate to get testimony and from people on here who were treated wrongly by cops and to register complaints... why not this one as well?
we may not be able to cover the $100's of thousands of dollars in medical bills, yes this may be true, but at the same time we can all pitch in to a fund to continue to buy our fellow ridazz things they will need while at the hospital to make their stay a little easier for them.
or even help them pay certain bills like cell phone bills to keep them in touch with the world while they are not able to work.
maybe help them rebuild bikes, or what ever the need may be even if its not medical bills... the money we raise can help them out somehow.
Aktive_420 responding to a comment by liquidpremium
06.18.11 - 8:18 am
the driver's car insurance will pay for the medical bills. besides, you know that cyclists have no money. It would be nice to collaborate on a get well present for those injured as an act of kindness.
Sneek responding to a comment by Rosiekins
06.18.11 - 10:09 am
Some folks have commented on undercover officers...I would have to call into question the accuracy of the information or recollection of the person reporting. LAPD criteria for an undercover operator are pretty strict. Perhaps there was a reserve officer or an off duty officer there who likes to ride...but not an on duty U.C. A U.C. would only identify themselves to officers and not compromise their position. A plainclothes officer would not be working solo and would have a partner with him and a team close by. It was a traumatic incident so I would chalk up any reports of an undercover officer to a misunderstanding caused by stress and chaotic scene.
I don't live in Los Angeles anymore. I'm far far away, living with my parents, trying to save money to move to SF, but I still keep tabs.
This whole situation is awful, heard the news on the radio, found out more via Facebook. Someone posted this thread so I came to check it out.
Sorry to hear that people are in the hospital with serious injuries. My thoughts go out to them.
Glad to see that everyone is reacting with graceful restraint in the face of infuriating circumstances.
Also glad to see an authority figure involved and answering questions here...although I am still pretty wary of cops (Especially after reporting a driver who brake checked in front of me on my bike and I had a partial plate and vehicle description, and the cops implied I deserved it cause I wasn't wearing a helmet? That's like telling me I deserve to be raped if I'm wearing a skirt...or, in the larger US rape culture, that I deserve to be raped cause I'm a woman...but I digress!).
Shitty to hear about the media trying to defame the cyclists by reporting the presence of...condoms? Its sensational intention is indicative of a culture that continues to vilify sexuality outside of marriage or procreation...to condemn women for the right to choose to have an abortion and - god forbid! - enjoy sex...yet refuses to teach kids how to have safe, protected sex...AND subversively emasculates men for choosing protection (Condoms "ruin the mood"...but sure, go ahead and attempt to defund Planned Parenthood, which provides the pill and other birth control options to women at affordable rates). Who cares if there were condoms present??? Goddamn, it's like when a woman has to testify against her rapist and they dredge up her sexual history. Hey, No means NO, and drunk driving is ILLEGAL.
At a time when driving is becoming prohibitively expensive, cycling and cyclists are still dismissed as a deviation from the norm (And apparently don't deserve justice?). While everyone bitches and cries about the impending 405 closure, cycling and cyclists still "shouldn't be on the road" (To summarize many an ignorant comment).
This is where feminism and cycling intersect.
Will be following this incident closely. Wishing a speedy recovery to the injured and justice for all.
also rent... these kids are gonna need help with that so they've got a place to come home to! I heard the moms are having an impromptu fundraiser at the lake today. is this true?
animosity responding to a comment by Aktive_420
06.18.11 - 1:41 pm
one thing I was thinking about... there is always someone on the rides that is documenting with either video or photo. was anyone doing this on that night? these images can put to rest (probably) the idea that the Ridazz had no flashies, we're in dark clothing or were hard to see.
from the pictures I've seen in the news, looks like most people we wearig enough color to be seen easily from very far away!
If you know the person a personal level then contact them first and see if they want to have visitors. If you dont know them its probably best to stay away. Some of them are feeling overwhelmed.
Roadblock responding to a comment by el sabroso
06.18.11 - 9:04 pm
It was a traumatic incident so I would chalk up any reports of an undercover officer to a misunderstanding caused by stress and chaotic scene.
No, there was a definitely a guy who claimed to be an undercover officer. Multiple people can verify this. The officers on scene should know what I'm talking about since he was talking to them, and the officers were definitely treating him differently than the rest of the riders.
It was hard seeing our friends on the hospital. We went to Cedars-Sinai and UCLA to visit them on Friday. We have to do what ever it takes to get our friends the money the deserve. I wish she would have to spend a year in prison for every person she hit plus another year for each broken bone.
Another article...accompanied by rational comments: http://culvercity.patch.com/articles/driver-crashes-into-early-morning-cycling-group-injures-many#c
I've spoken to the commanding officer of South Traffic Division and she had no knowledge of any officer (off-duty or otherwise) identifying himself as such to on scene personnel. I've left a message for CCPD and will inquire if any notes they received from us (or from their own officers at the scene) indicate an officer among the cyclists. My hope is that someone did not take advantage of this horrible incident to misrepresent who they are and scam those who trusted him with their property.
Did anyone see any form of badge or other indicia that would substantiate the persons claimed affiliation with law enforcement?
Did the person have facial hair? If so what kind?
What was his hairstyle?
Did he have any piercings?
Did he have a backpack, fanny pack, or any other item that could conceal a firearm?
No admission of a Narc being at the scene ?
Could this be some sort of cover up ?
or ?
Maybe they were with an agency such as Homeland Security looking for anti govt. decenters umong the MR ranks ?
Dedicated818 responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.20.11 - 10:05 am
'As the police came, I made my way towards when I heard one of the riders yell at me, "Stand back! I'm an undercover officer, let me handle this!"'
"A plainclothes officer would not be working solo and would have a partner with him and a team close by."
I'm gonna say it because no one else is - the reason this dude identified himself as undercover (easier to say in the heat of the moment than 'off duty/plain clothes') was because one of the girls who was hit was actually an off duty LAPD officer
I really hate to be an "enabler" to d818's unbridled paranoia, however it is not at all outlandish to think that undercover officers (either local, state or federal) would be infiltrating bike rides.
There are countless examples in my lifetime of paranoid law enforcement agencies infiltrating, disrupting, and framing members of subcultural groups they find threatening for reasons that are not always logical.
"In a tape made at the April 29 Critical Mass ride, a man in a football jersey is seen riding along West 19th Street with a group of bicycle riders to a police blockade at 10th Avenue. As the police begin to handcuff the bicyclists, the man in the jersey drops to one knee. He tells a uniformed officer, "I'm on the job." The officer in uniform calls to a colleague, "Louie - he's under." A second officer arrives and leads the man in the jersey - hands clasped behind his back - one block away, where the man gets back on his bicycle and rides off." - New York Times via commondreams.org
trickmilla responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.20.11 - 11:52 am
Haven't y'all seen any movies? It takes a lot to be an UC, and only a select few are chosen. And once you are UC, you don't blow cover, and you do not disclose your identity to other law enforcement officers.
Hi Newark...if an laps officer was hit/injured Operations would have been notified. Since I work operations I have to say you are mistaken. I will check with CCPD. You would not by chance have a name would you?
While the account you posted is possible, I don't think it probable. What is a red flag to me is the statement that a uniformed officer calls out to his partner and yells "Louie he's under" basically announcing to the world who the officer is and blowing his cover. An undercover officer would advise a uniformed officer in private and the uniformed officer would exercise some discretion.
But it is possible the uniformed guys were completely incompetent. Which agency is this?
In the interest of full disclosure and transparancy, LAPD and I am sure some other agencies have ridden with various Ridazz groups in the past and will continue to in the future to determine if any enforcement action is necessary against those who habitually generate complaints from the community. As I have indicated these would be done in a coordinated effort with multiple officers and support near by.
If the above can happen, then some skepticism seems warranted. We shouldn't rush to judgements, but let's not be naive.
I think the notion of "full disclosure and transparency" is a bit more full and transparent. I don't think the principle is satisfied with something like, if we find reason to do such and such, then we'll do so, and we have done so.
Would you feel comfortable elaborating on those instances alluded to in your comment, you know, in "the interest of full disclosure and transparency"?
markd responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.20.11 - 4:58 pm
Sure...prior to our formal presence on LACM I personnaly went in with a few guys in plain clothes and observed what actually was happening at the gathering spot (which was open and conspicuous alcohol and pot use). Also what went on during the ride (numerous traffic violations...some benign, some more serious), what happenes at the termination point prior to the people's ride (A a lot of people going into the rite aid and buting alcohol and I can only assume will be riding under the influence home or to the Boat House). I did not observe the snatch and grab incidents or the tagging activity that was also reportedly a problem but did see numerous incidents where confrontations between motorists and cyclists looked like they would escalate.
Based on those observations we were able to determine the extent of the problem and the appropriate number of officers to address it. Not really long term infiltration but definately information gathering.
Also, when there are large demonstrations where there is a possibility of civil unrest officers will mix in among the demonstrators and advise the Command Post of there locations and observations. That way if there is a small group of folks that attempt to mask there illegal activity by the larger group we may be able to identify and respond only to the problem without having to disrupt the entire demonstration.
If you don't mind me asking, wow many rides were infiltrated before, let's say, the LACM incident? I only reference that incident because that seemed to be a significant turning point for rides and riders (i.e. there was a clear and upfront police presence).
Also, since you participated in that infiltration, can you tell us a bit about what rides you singled out? How did you determine which rides to attend?
markd responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.20.11 - 5:38 pm
We don't single out rides...we receive complaints from the community and respond accordingly. If no one complains than there is no reason for us to be involved.
For LACM the specific complaints were tagging, robberies, traffic issues and it was basically portrayed to the police as a rolling rave. Its not that we singled LACM out so much as we could no longer ignore it.
How many rides have LAPD been inconspicuously involved in?...no idea but I don't believe it is a significant number. You've seen some of our bike guys and probably know they can't keep up :>)
If LAPD rode incognito even 3 times over the course of the year I would be surprised.
we receive complaints from the community and respond accordingly. If no one complains than there is no reason for us to be involved.
For LACM the specific complaints were tagging, robberies, traffic issues and it was basically portrayed to the police as a rolling rave
And you guys wonder why, when something like this happens, the cops aren't on the cyclists' side.
We are not god's gift to earth because we happen to prefer two wheels to four. We are not above the law and we are not invincible. The blatant hypocrisy I have seen on this forum displayed through the lambasting of the Ms. Dahab's driving under the influence is astonishing. I hate to admit it, but a major factor in my absence from all Midnight Ridazz rides for the past couple of years is because I fear not only for my safety, but I also fear that associating myself with these rides would tarnish my reputation. It's not just the drinking and drug-using, but the carelessness and inconsiderate manner with which many of you ride.
Please learn from this, Ridazz. Yes, Ms. Dahab was reprehensibly negligent in her actions, but there are things we can do, steps that we can take in the future, to prevent these types of accidents and to foster a better relationship with those people in their metal cages who so happen to hold our lives in their hands.
la duderina responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.20.11 - 6:36 pm
I 'member that movie Death of President makes an interesting estimation of the "domestic intelligence" process, in terms of the fictional scenario in the title. It was made using stock footage from the Chicago protests.
Irregardless, people are in the hospital as a result of an "inattentive" driver's failure to navigate the current traffic dynamics on a public street safely at the very least.
Arguably any actual public expenditures which went to babysit local bicycle riders based on "what if" scenarios perhaps might better have been funding something like introducing lighting and signage or something regarding safety on this stretch of road.
icbx responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.20.11 - 6:39 pm
easy there.... throwing stones in a glass house ya know..... ms. blaze crew.
look, people, young and old do what they do. in America people like to party. You can't turn on a TV or ride down the street without seeing an ad for alcohol. it's a normal part of our society love it or not.
it just so happens that a lot of riders are just like everybody else except they do it on bicycles which is SO MUCH MORE responsible than drinking and driving like the rest of the bar hopping population does. You think all these people that go to clubs are driving at or above the legal limit every time they come home from the spot?!
We should be celebrating that people are partying on bicycles rather than jetting down the street in 4000 pound machines at high rates of speed.
I wish people could see that.
I'd like to know when the LAPD will put some undercovers at the clubs on hollywood and cahuenga and make sure none of the people there are smoking pot or drinking and driving???
These youngsters on the rides.... the only thing they really do different than the general population is they ride bikes and that seems to always become a problem for the powers that be.
Roadblock responding to a comment by la duderina
06.20.11 - 6:50 pm
"And you guys wonder why, when something like this happens, the cops aren't on the cyclists' side. "
Oh, right, like it's totally justified for cops side with a motorist who plowed through 11 people (who by the way are seriously fucked up), just because some officers don't like what some riders do.
markd responding to a comment by la duderina
06.20.11 - 6:55 pm
you forgot "and wrong", which if legal theory serves me correct, means the actions of past rides or riders are clearly irrelevant to the "cause(s)" of the current collision, right?
markd responding to a comment by la duderina
06.20.11 - 7:03 pm
Our vice units routinely go to bars and clubs and check to see if minors are being served or if folks that are already intoxicated are allowed to continue drinking.
I'm not on here criticizing anyone for operating a vehicle while under the influence.
Besides, drunk cyclists can just as easily cause accidents as a drunk motorist. Yes, the actual harm caused may be less great, but that is speculating. Consider a drunk cyclist running a red light, causing a sober motorist to swerve, hit a pole, and die on impact. Or even a drunk cyclist who negligent rides up onto a sidewalk into 11 pedestrians, breaking bones and causing one to fall and break their head open.
I know these are hypothetical, but my point is, is that cyclist any less worse, any less negligent, than Ms. Dahab, just because they were only on two wheels? Maybe to some of you, but in the eyes of the law, probably not. In the eyes of the victims, definitely not.
And it's not just the drug using I'm talking about. I'm talking about the straight up stupid riding that pisses drives off. I'm talking about the robbing, the tagging, that Sgt. Krumer mentioned, that puts the group rides in a bad light.
All I'm saying is we need to look at ourselves and our own actions before we continue acting like we're fucking pure as the driven snow. Because we are not.
It's known that certain law enforcement agencys will put undercover officers in events with the role of being a agent provocateur / one who creates trouble to discredit a group. This is documented at several protest such as G20 etc.
I would not be surprised if the LAPD did this on critical mass rides.
I have a issue with officers being undrcover posing as civilians in order to obtain
information or intrap citizens. This is one reason why the Police are not trusted.
Your admission of yourself going undercover to recon rides questions the validity
of your deniging the presence of a undercover officer at the Ktown ride.
Dedicated818 responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.20.11 - 7:12 pm
I'd wager to say that a drunk cyclist is far safer than a drunk motorist and if you say they are not then show me the statistics. let's see the stats on deaths and injuries caused by BUI vs. DUI and we can compare per capita injury and death infliction.
let's start with this incident.... one person plowed into 50 people and seriously injured 11 people. Lets say a drunk bicyclist plowed into 50 cars.... how many people would be injured? get it? IT IS MORE RESPONSIBLE to bike home from a bar than to drive home from one. You can't dispute that. so, given the playing ground, that everyone in america likes to party, the more responsible way to do it is by bicycle and that should be celebrated not used to slander people who got run over.
Roadblock responding to a comment by la duderina
06.20.11 - 7:17 pm
I did not slander anyone. As a matter of fact my only reference to the incident was that I hope we can learn from it so as to prevent any future occurrences. Any other reference I made was to MR as a whole.
All I'm saying is that people are getting extremely upset that the cops aren't "on our side," but we don't make it very easy for them to side with us, do we? I am in no way placing any blame or accusing anyone who was on that ride or got hurt of anything. The only one who is to blame is the driver.
And I think that a group of 500 people riding 20-30 miles through the city, drunk, holding up traffic, swerving in and out of cars, running red lights, stealing from stores and littering is a little bit different story than simply a person riding a bike home from the bar.
there you are generalizing about 500 people. on every ride I've been on there has been a minority of people that are drunk. most are not but sure, some are. like I said, show me the stats on BUI and DUI. lets not conjecture, lets use real facts.
stealing? yeah it sucks but again with the generalizing. a very small minority of people steal on these rides. do I hate that it happens from time to time? YES. does it happen a lot? I don't think so.
Roadblock responding to a comment by la duderina
06.20.11 - 7:43 pm
It has happened enough that the cops have decided it necessary to send fucking undercovers on the rides. It has happened enough that many of those who were once weekly attendees have all but abandoned the rides altogether.
And I'm not going to sit here and google statistics for you, because I already know there will be less BUIs, simply because of the fact that the Driving Population is so much greater than the Bicycling Population.
Besides, I have a little exam I need to be studying for.
Obviously I agree with you, RB. I'd much rather have people on bikes than in cars, whether they are drunk, sober, purple, fat, have stinky feet, whatever. I've just been trained to see everything from all sides and because of that, I am simply not shocked by the way this whole thing has been handled. Angry, yes. But I expected it.
Like I said, I just want everyone to be more safe in the future. If that means only ever riding two abreast, stopping at every single red light, and regrouping only in parking lots or up on a sidewalk, so be it. No one is going to protect us but ourselves. We put our lives in the hands of motorists and I think a higher consciousness and respect of that fact would serve us, as cyclists, well.
"And I'm not going to sit here and google statistics for you, because I already know there will be less BUIs, simply because of the fact that the Driving Population is so much greater than the Bicycling Population. "
I was saying per capita not comparing total numbers....
and when I said slander I was referring to whom ever the LAPD officer was that was spreading rumors about condoms and beer bottles to the media. Like I said earlier, when I went to film that clip the next night I noticed at least 3 vehicles park there and couples exiting to hike up there with blankets and cooler bags naaaameen?
Roadblock responding to a comment by la duderina
06.20.11 - 8:10 pm
I hate to admit it, but a major factor in my absence from all Midnight Ridazz rides for the past couple of years is because I fear not only for my safety, but I also fear that associating myself with these rides would tarnish my reputation
You mean that sterling, upstanding, fit-to-be-an-officer-of-the-court reputation that you so carefully built up for yourself by coming on this forum and bragging about your drug use like a fucking 14 year old?
PC responding to a comment by la duderina
06.21.11 - 4:02 am
I think a lot of people gave up on midnight ridazz a little because of the reputation it has for beer and boobiez. Im going to do what i can to help clean it up. Hope a lot of the vets come around to help inspire the new generations.
I don't worry much about my reputation at this stage of my life - I'm willing to stand for my own behavior - but it does bother me when I fear for my safety due to the actions of the riders around me, or when I tire of being associated with riders who tag, shoplift, steal from fellow riders, engage in violence, litter and otherwise disrespect the communities we ride through.
While the account you posted is possible, I don't think it probable. What is a red flag to me is the statement that a uniformed officer calls out to his partner and yells "Louie he's under" basically announcing to the world who the officer is and blowing his cover. An undercover officer would advise a uniformed officer in private and the uniformed officer would exercise some discretion.
Whether or not you think it probable, Sergeant, it happened. It was caught on videotape (by another police officer--the video was obtained through the process of discovery by an attorney representing arrested cyclists) and reported by the New York Times. Sorry if that messes with your weltanschauung, but these are the facts.
The video actually circulated around the Internet a bit when the story was first broken. I can't find it now, though. Maybe it's on Indymedia? Their NYC site is in beta at the moment and my browser doesn't like their certificate, but it might be worth searching the site if you can make it work.
But it is possible the uniformed guys were completely incompetent. Which agency is this?
Not just possible but probable, Sarge; for the agency in question is the New York Police Department, whose alarmingly low hiring standards (more LASD than LAPD, if you catch my drift) are known the world over.
PC responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.21.11 - 2:34 pm
Anyone know what the status is of the Rider in Critical Condition? I'm down for a benefit ride when possible. We can bring spare parts for charity. Got a good $500 of spar parts ready.
The second example which is linked in the post but I will repeat here because this thread is getting quite long: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1223-04.htm is from a NY imes Article about the UC efforts of NYPD doing surveillance on NYCM and Peace Groups. The quote in the article comes from a video recording made at an NYCM ride.
The point my post was simply that I never put it beyond any law enforcement agency to conduct surveillance of a subcultural group.
I know there are procedures and policies that officers UC or uniformed are supposed to follow, (like not giving up their status) but I think we have all seen officers at one time or another acting outside their expected code of conduct.
NYPD is notoriously violent, maybe the dude gave hims self up so he didn't get roughed up.
trickmilla responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.21.11 - 6:19 pm
ever wonder when an infiltrator loses or abandons that role? trust is key. trust means access. while others may hide behind plain clothes, we have to wonder if embracing the formal representation means we're not still being infiltrated. I know, I know, I know, we trust... hah..
It's strange, right? Taking on a role to gain support, access and such. And imagine, no longer having to hide and still being accepted, called upon, praised, etc.
I drop the paranoia just to feel better. Then, it creeps back -- what if? Fuck, drop it, okay. But, what if?
Again, a person once assumed the plain clothes role to mingle with the riders. Slingshot and cigarette in hand, talking bout the revolution and our basic ideologies match. Ahh, the comfort, one of us, I'll drink to that comrade. Then the clothes change and suddenly we have a new ally. Our complaints are addressed, our frustrations co-signed. Our battles waged together. It's like we have a friend, a comrade, he's one of us... just like at the boat house.
eh, we're peaceful folk who ride bikes, why do we need to worry?
markd responding to a comment by trickmilla
06.21.11 - 6:51 pm
Dang, are we really still discussing this undercover stuff?!?
Please go visit Dora, whether you know her personally or not. She is in terrible need of emotional support. She's worse than yesterday, her powerful headaches reoccur every 2-4 minutes. The girl is in so much pain, she can barely focus on the conversation. Even on a morphine drip, her pain is still pretty much a 10/10.
Ask for Dora Guerra at the information desk, she's at UCLA Medical (Ronald Reagan) in Westwood.
It's looking like we'll definitely have to take a collection to help pay for her parking tickets, otherwise she will not be able to get her car out of the impound.
"eh, we're peaceful folk who ride bikes, why do we need to worry?"
This is why I truly believe in the love of Midnight Ridazz and why I tend not to care that the cops are infiltrating the scene undercover or not. They can keep on riding and eventually I believe that even they can and will "go native."
We aren't doing anything but riding bikes and enjoying our days and if, after all of that, they can't feel the love and joy and become more empathetic humans... We might as well give up on humanity.
This is exactly what I have been working my ass off for the past couple of years to counteract. I never claimed to be innocent and I regret all stupidity I displayed on this forum. Since then I have taken the necessary steps to change and behave in a manner more fitting of the career path I have chosen. We can't all be old know it alls like you. Some of us have to make mistakes. I am confident that I've learned from mine and have grown into someone worthy of the title I will hopefully soon hold. And I really don't care what you have to say about it - you hardly know me at all.
I been away from the news/media/tv/group rides and just read about this right now. There's a sorrow in my soul for all who were affected by this, deep down in my pit. I feel real bad about all this and I hope for the best recovery for the fallen ones. I also feel great full for the ones that got away. It was just two weeks ago Thursday on the Alter Ego ride that I told some dude how I fear that an enraged/drunk/soul less driver might just run over a pack of cyclist. I told him this exact words "But you'll see man, it's gonna happen". I don't know the whole story but I do know why I said it.
In Los Angeles, we take for granted a lot of things. A lot is definitely taken for granted..... We can ride free like the beings we are meant to be but we are flesh and bone and we need to remember that. I been in more bicycle accidents than ANY ONE I know, and I still have a fracture face from 3 months ago. My right side is slightly numb, might have damaged nerves on my face for life.... be safe out there....I don't mean to be an ass when I get mad and scream at riders to stay to the right lane, and to keep a line, and to not run a red, and to wait for everyone, and and... you all know what I mean. I don't mean to be a jerk to the drunks out there who ride but I am, because that's how I got to be accident king. Well, why don't we just go out to ride? Why don't we assume that we are drinking in public and getting shit faced on our bicycles, and so must many motorist out there? When we text when we ride on our bicycles, we must assume that there is another human being next to us inside a car doing the same? Being just as free and careless? I'm really upset here. I'm gonna ride my bike for a while and smoke a bowl. I'm gonna reflect what it is to be free in Los Angeles.
I never claimed to be innocent and I regret all stupidity I displayed on this forum.
Then perhaps on those occasions when you do deign to post here, you could post something more thoughtful than this sanctimonious crap about disassociating yourself from MR lest *it* give you a bad name--as though you hadn't been doing a decent job of giving yourself one all along. Did you really think that I or RB were going to let you get away with that?
And I really don't care what you have to say about it - you hardly know me at all.
And you hardly know any of the people you're talking about, but that hasn't prevented you from making blanket statements about them, has it? You seem to be asking for some sort of special exemption from the same kind of judgment that you are doling out. Not the sort of thing one expects from an aspiring lawyer, but then neither were your simplistic statements about contributory negligence (ba-ZING!).
PC responding to a comment by la duderina
06.21.11 - 10:01 pm
You seem to be asking for some sort of special exemption from the same kind of judgment that you are doling out..
I have said numerous times now that I am no innocent party. But come on, be real here. The drinking on rides is a known fact. The littering and stealing have been all over these forums. Now, MR has never condoned any of this and actually does a damn good job of policing itself when it finds out there is a problem. But at the time I decided MR wasn't the best to be around, there were guns and stabbings and the drama was at an all time high. Who would want to be a part of that?
Why am I suddenly unreasonable because I fear that being seen as a 'Midnight Rida' might put me in a bad light? I've been around, I've read the forums. It's not like I'm making this shit up. I really don't mean to generalize. I've met many good people through MR, but we all know this stuff has been happening and I think my concerns are entirely legitimate.
but then neither were your simplistic statements about contributory negligence (ba-ZING!)
Not all lawyers feel compelled to portray themselves as infinitely smarter than everyone else with flowery language and an air of superiority. Although many do, so I bet you would fit right in.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einsten
Please go visit Dora, whether you know her personally or not. She is in terrible need of emotional support. She's worse than yesterday, her powerful headaches reoccur every 2-4 minutes. The girl is in so much pain, she can barely focus on the conversation. Even on a morphine drip, her pain is still pretty much a 10/10.
Ask for Dora Guerra at the information desk, she's at UCLA Medical (Ronald Reagan) in Westwood.
It's looking like we'll definitely have to take a collection to help pay for her parking tickets, otherwise she will not be able to get her car out of the impound.
Wish I knew this when myself and RAYRAYRAY went down there early Tuesday AM.
I'm now hearing one of the other victims was in the childrens ward and we just didn't know Doras last name and were stumbling like idiots trying to find it.
Resources were tight at the moment(truck issues) and I was trying to knock all my visits in before heading back out on the road Wednesday.
I feel so lost right now. You can't even imagine:(
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
I didn't say "simple," I said "simplistic." You could have said what you said in half as many words or in twice as many, but you still would have been wrong. Between that and your history of (gasp, shudder) unlawful behavior, I'm not sure that we Ridazz should be seen with you in public. We have our reputations to think of, after all... ;)
PC responding to a comment by la duderina
06.22.11 - 3:46 am
RB, I would hate to ask you this out in the open. Forgive me if this has been suggested, say some us sponsor say X dollars of MR merchandise at wholesale then a re-sale of those items and donate the proceeds? So, say pay for a $100 dollars in stickers, shirts, and buttons, have riders sell it to their friends fams co-workers, come back with 2-300$ and donate it all towards these riders. The initial proceeds to start everything is donated as well.
Just a thought. For those who are going to be stuck in the hospital a while, it might really serve them to have something they can use for entertainment in the long run.
Kaslik - drop me an email at alexcthompson@gmail.com and we can make arrangements. Definitely there's a need for funds on multiple fronts.
PS - contents of that update
1) an update on the victims. Many are doing better, but some are worse.
2) a discussion of why Dahab can and should be charged with Felony DUI despite blowing .07 BAC.
3) some interviews from Mike Bowers of the victims and witnesses.
4) some photos I took on the Justice Ride to support the victims.
I guess if your are a law enforcement officer you can shoot a suspected Drunk Driver:
LOS ANGELES - An off-duty Los Angeles County sheriff's deputy shot and wounded a suspected drunk driver early today after the man caused the deputy to veer towards a freeway siderail, police said.
The deputy was following the suspect on the Santa Monica (10) Freeway at about 4:30 a.m. when the near crash and shooting happened, Sgt. Dino Calderas of the LAPD's Newton Station said.
The deputy and suspect both exited the freeway at Mateo Street. Police arrested the man at 41st and Alameda Street, Calderas said.
The deputy hit the suspect with a single shot to the forearm, Calderas said. The man was taken to Los Angeles County-USC Medical Center in stable condition. The deputy was not injured.
still don't understand why "commercial drivers" have a lower DUI percent and harsher penalties. What is it about being a "commercial" driver that the state demands a stricter alcohol intake?
Apparently, the .04% makes sense if you have received advanced training and acquired more skills to drive.
Let's allow those with LESS training and presumably less skills to drink more.
gotta love government.
markd responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
06.22.11 - 11:41 am
Deadly Force. Law enforcement officers are authorized to use deadly force to:
� Protect themselves or others from what is reasonably believed to be an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury; or,
� Prevent a crime where the suspect's actions place person(s) in imminent jeopardy of death or serious bodily injury; or,
� Prevent the escape of a violent fleeing felon when there is probable cause to believe the escape will pose a significant threat of death or serious bodily injury to the officer or others if apprehension is delayed.
No, law enforcement can not shoot drunk drivers unless that drunk driver is about to run over someone (or 11 cyclists) thereby making it a life or death situation. This officer may have shot the drunk driver but it would be wrong to think that the officer will not suffer some serious reprecussions if the shooting is out of policy.
Well how would the deputy know if this man was drunk. What if he accidentally swerved into the lane because he was distracted or had a medical condition or a heart attack that caused a temporary loss of control of the vehicle?
I am be no means defending the suspects actions, however it seems that firing his weapon is the last thing that the officer should do.
So if an off-duty/undercover officer just happened to be riding with oh, say, about 30 riders and they just happened to be riding in Culver City, on a street named Jefferson and this group with whom the off duty/undercoverofficer was riding with just happened to pull over to the right side of a 3 lane road, let's say about 200 feet past a street named, Hetzler Rd. Then this off-duty/Undercover office looks up and see's a white vehicle approaching this group from what appears to be the wrong lane, then shoots the driver because he/she felt threatened. Do you think the news would blame the cyclists or would the media then claim that a Drunken lunatic ran over 11 cyclists' but was fired upon by a cop in an attempt to save the Cyclists'?
ridetime responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.22.11 - 5:34 pm
There would have to be some culpability on the part of the driver. If its the result of loss of control, mechanical failure, medical condition than we would not be justified in shooting no matter how many people could potentially be injured. Its like that moral dilemma...do you kill one innocent person to save a hundred? But lets say that a robbery suspect is fleeing in a car and is coming up on a school zone when kids are let out? Does this change the equation? I think it does.
By the way, an officer is generally not allowed to shoot at a moving vehicle even if he is threatened by that vehicle...the expectation is that he move out of the way. If he does not have time to move he does not have time to take aim and shot...and even if he did...shooting at the driver will not stop the momentum of the car. So an off-duty/UC would probably not shoot.
It seems the general attitude of most officers is to pull there gun out at any opportunity.
Shoot 1st ask questions later, with the mindset of well the situation seemed threating.
Take for example the receint execution of a Marine in his home in Arizona.
Misinformed a SWAT team entered a house occupied by a receintly discharged
Marine who had a wife and child present. Being awakened by the disturbance he
grabed his rifle and assumed a defensive stance. Not firing because he realised
it was law enforcement not a home invasion. The SWAT team seeing a rifle in his hand gunned him down in his home. They were looking for marajuna, good work.
After all isn't that why most cops join the force so they can carry a gun ?
Dedicated818 responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.22.11 - 8:09 pm
I met Dora once at a MIDNIGHT OWL RIDE. She was really nice to me. I don't know her that well, but i was shocked when I heard the news of the crash. I would like to visit her but I don't want her to feel awkward.
Yeah..I know a few of the riders from just meeting them on rides over the past year or so..but I also feel like it would be awkward because we aren't close friends or anything. I do pray for everybody involved and my heart truly goes out to them though... :/ GET WELL SOON THUGS!
Any chance you guys could start a separate thread for bizarre officer involved shooting hypotheticals and leave this one for updates on the injured ridazz and related issues?
JB responding to a comment by Dedicated818
06.23.11 - 11:52 am
"We don't single out rides...we receive complaints from the community and respond accordingly. If no one complains than there is no reason for us to be involved.
For LACM the specific complaints were tagging, robberies, traffic issues and it was basically portrayed to the police as a rolling rave. Its not that we singled LACM out so much as we could no longer ignore it."
I find this response very bias towards the non bike riding community. How come there wasnt police sent on rides after complaints of riders get shot by gang members on rides? How come there wasnt cops sent on rides after complaints of riders getting stabbed on rides? How come there wasnt cops sent on rides after the hundreds of complaints of cars trying to bully there way through rides causing people to crash? How come there wasnt cops sent on rides after things like the Hummer incident in downtown a couple of years ago. How come there wasnt cops sent on rides after the numerous complaints about the LAPD using excessive force? Seems to me by your statement that its the LAPDs stance that its more important to protect the general public from cyclists drinking and smoking in a parking lot than protecting the cycling community from being shot by gang members just for riding through their neighborhood?
buckchin responding to a comment by Sgt. David Krumer
06.23.11 - 3:49 pm
Yeah, it's interesting that people BEGGED Krumer to get his department to do something about bike theft and all we got in response was "no resources, not important enough, sorry."
...although as we now know, LAPD's anti-theft sting resources were at that time tied up in their effort to do something about the massively important, unspeakable scourge of people taking packs of cigarettes from the open windows of seemingly abandoned cars, and could not be diverted to combat anything so trivial as the citywide theft of locked up bicycles. So that's understandable.
"How come there wasnt police sent on rides after complaints of riders get shot by gang members on rides?"
Maybe because after the rida got shot on Avenue 52 in July 2009, about 2 months later, in September 2009, over 1,200 LAPD officers raided the Avenues gang and made 44 arrests?
Dora seems quite up for talking to new ridazz and/or ridazz she's never met before. I've been a couple of times with packs of ridazz.
She gives the impression of appreciating listening in on the conversation when she doesn't have the energy to talk. Got a snippet from her about a Wolfpack ride. Woot! Woot!
I've heard music was a hit with her. Take some fellow ridazz & some tunes and just step out of the room for a minute if she needs some privacy.
champagne responding to a comment by elscorpion77
06.23.11 - 6:27 pm
Read first sentence: (I posted the whole post so it would not be out of context)
"We don't single out rides...we receive complaints from the community and respond accordingly. If no one complains than there is no reason for us to be involved.
For LACM the specific complaints were tagging, robberies, traffic issues and it was basically portrayed to the police as a rolling rave. Its not that we singled LACM out so much as we could no longer ignore it.
How many rides have LAPD been inconspicuously involved in?...no idea but I don't believe it is a significant number. You've seen some of our bike guys and probably know they can't keep up :>)
If LAPD rode incognito even 3 times over the course of the year I would be surprised.
I respect what this member of the police force is doing for the bike community and LA in general. Very, Very, much so actually.
However, this statement is inaccurate and incompete. Cops show up and hassle when there have been no complaints. Saying otherwise is inconsistent with fact, history, and reality.
And to say that there no bias against cylists also defies fact and reality. I was maced and wanted the LAPD to pursue a case. It is still within the statue of limitations. My calls were never returned from the detective involved.
A CAR HIT ME (at a very low speed) THEN THE DRIVER MACED ME, WHEN I WAS POSING NO THREAT TO HIM. WE HAD THE LICENSE PLATE NUMBER AND PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION OF THE DRIVER. 12+ witnesses. We had a license plate number.!!!
Detectives were provided with multiple people's contact info. ~~~ Bu;lshit
called me once for contact info of witnesses; never heard from him again.
I know the budget is tight, but there is time to document condoms but not enough to run a verified license plate number for a assault with a weapin likely to create great bodily harm???
*The responding officers were nice and took an accurate and I think detailed account of the record.
Afternoon has worked well for most people. I know 9-5ers have gone after work. She's eager to get back on a more regular schedule, so even if you wake her up from a nap she doesn't seem to mind.
champagne responding to a comment by buckchin
06.25.11 - 8:20 am
Many of the injured have been released from hospitals, so if you're planning a visit -- ask Aktive first to see who's still hospitalized & up for a visit.
Hey. Thought y'all might want to know that MarkD Bike Talk Nick and I ran into Michaelson at OccupyLA tonight. we walked up to him and filmed an interview asking him about his reporting. hahah
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Ridazz Roulette!
