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This is a discussion moved from the "Franz in Jail" thread. We I felt it was worth its own thread so more people can chime in and discuss.
TOPIC: On the one hand is our right to fill the left lane, or as many lanes as we want and/or deem prudent or necessary to do so. On the other hand is a question whether keeping a left lane free for traffic (like cops) is a worthwhile concession to attract less animosity and concern from law enforcement. I don't have an answer, I just wanted to float the idea. My original post follows...
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Major bummer about Franz. But I think it's worth having a bigger discussion about when we do and do not take both lanes.
When the first cop car rolled up to the front of the ride, he yelled "clear the left lane", and people were slow to do so. Some ignored him or gave him attitude. You've gotta wonder if the group had been out of the lane in the first place, or much quicker to clear it, if things would have gone down like they did.
We should all know by now, the way to keep cops on your good side is to swallow your pride and follow orders. But the more incidents like Saturday night, the more the cops in all areas are going to start cracking down as soon as they see/hear about a ride. Look what happened to Santa Monica Crit-mass. We can't let that spiral into other rides, all over the city.
I, for one, would be OK with it if we had a hard and fast rule to always keep the left lane open on two lanes streets if it means our rides have a better chance at continuing to coexist with the city and the cops. I'm all for keeping the rides free-from, but maybe there's some basic ground-rules and etiquette we should self-enforce to make sure we can keep riding.
I'll post this separately if anyone thinks this is worth separate and specific Ridazz feedback -- which i think it does.
0gravity
04.21.08 - 7:26 pm
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@ 0Gravity. I wholeheartedly agree about the left lane thing. If we kept it open except for occasional passing, it would be a very very good thing.
redridinghood
04.21.08 - 7:32 pm
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DO IT!!!!!
richtotheie
04.21.08 - 7:32 pm
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0gravity,
I just want to make two counterpoints
1) WeHo Sheriff's went after LACM last month, so there is a good chance this incident was the product of a policy shift.
2) CVC 21202, says ride as far to the right as practicable. It does not confine cyclists to the right most lane. Individual riders on Critical Mass, Midnight Ridazz, or any other ride have the right to use the 2nd lane, the left lane, if there is not room to ride in the rightmost lane. Bizarre, but true. We can also ride three lanes abreast if it's not practical to ride in the rightmost or 2nd rightmost lane. !!!!!! We really are traffic.
Alex Thompson
04.21.08 - 7:35 pm
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if this is true and it makes sense, what is illegal and what can be done to keep this from happening in the future? Would yelling out codes as they are tackling us be fair -- or were we just in the wrong place at the wrong time Saturday Night?
..............
bondink
04.21.08 - 7:41 pm
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I wasn't sure if this was relevant but do you think something like THIS is something we're about to see or are seeing now??
FMontanez1974
04.21.08 - 8:07 pm
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Alex, i hear ya. You're totally right. That's indeed the law.
But I just wonder if there are times where compromising and not asserting that right might buy us more friends in the law enforcement community. They don't care for little specifics of bike law. They just don't want the streets to look like an unsanctioned rowdy parade. I'm not saying always keep the left lane clear but maybe when cops are spotted or, for example, shouting at us to "clear the left lane."
I'm not even sure if the idea I floated is the right one, but I think it's worth brief consideration.
0gravity
04.21.08 - 8:17 pm
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I agree with keeping one lane open for traffic. Just because we can take all lanes doesn't mean we should. We have to compromise since we do not have the numbers that non cyclists have.
Things have changed, I think Law Enforcement was more tolerant when our rides were once a month. Now that we have several rides each weekend, the traffic we create might be viewed as a bigger problem and is being dealt with accordingly.
Also, I want to point out a basic difference between CM and MR rides. CM rides have an agenda and taking up all lanes is part of its MO. MR rides are social rides through the city and leaving a car lane open was always recommended.
sc_nomad
04.21.08 - 8:18 pm
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@sc_nomad
As always people mis-characterize CM and MR. CM has no specific agenda. It's a potluck.
@0gravity
I recognize that you're saying this might be a good PR move. Perhaps. I just want to make sure everyone understands - if we've got the volume of riders to do it, then we're not breaking the law by taking 2, 3, 4 or 5 lanes of traffic.
Or 6.
Riders should be more savvy about how they handle police . . . and if you look at SMCM riders these days they're much smarter than they used to be. Still, the police have an obligation to adhere to the law, and they weren't doing it.
21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:
(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.
(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.
(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway of a highway, which highway carries traffic in one direction only and has two or more marked traffic lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of that roadway as practicable.
My mommy taught me to share. Life is about give and take.
If there are multiple lanes to be shared, be a good neighbor and give one up to the cars and smile and wave when they drive by. (but if they are acting like assholes, then give 'em the finger!)
The problem with the law as it pertains to this discussion is really the word "impractical". The only reason it would be impractical for us not to be in the left lane would be if it is so destroyed or pot-holed up that we can't safely be in it or when we are all pulling into a meeting point and again for safety reasons we need to spread out to slow down without any bumping/issues. I'm sure there are other reasons, but the law sounds like it allowed the loop hole to be made for our safety, not so we could take over the road because we can't ride just 3-4 wide in a lane.
Sure, ride in the left lane once in a while. I do it when I'm catching up to people or just feel like stretching the legs a bit. Yes, we are part of traffic, but when we act as one large vehicle going down the road, should we be taking both lanes like an SUV driving down the center line or should we try and not abuse the law?
Alex, while I agree with your interpretation of the law, I think what we're discussing here is not so much what our legal rights are, but what is practical, smart and least likely to get us in trouble. Maybe I'm just a conciliatory type, but I don't see a lot to be gained from provoking unnecessary confrontations and causing antagonism on social rides.
The sad truth is that the Police will always have might on their side, so arguing your legal rights won't stop you from being ticketed or arrested, if (in their eyes) you're violating the law. Of course, you can choose to fight it in court and you might prevail.
The other segment of the population that we deal with is private motorists. Many times I've seen riders taking up the left lane when the rides aren't even that large or dense. Here too, I'm a proponent of "you can catch more flies with honey". Why get in someone's way just because you can? I just think we stand a better chance of furthering our cause if we can demonstrate that the road is sharable space.
My personal preference on group rides is to ride near the left edge of the right hand lane when riding on a four lane road. It gives me a good view of the road and the pavement is usually decent there. I feel like I'm exercising my rights as a cyclist without being selfish or likely to attract unwanted attention. Obviously, there are times when the rides are so large and dense that it does make sense to take two lanes, but I think we need to realize that it's fluid situation; in other words, be aware!
I understand that 0gravity, yourself and others are treating this as a discussion about whether this is a good idea, or a feasible idea, independent of the law. However, I think it's important that we understand that this is OUR decision and not their decision. By "our" I mean the bike community at large, and by "their" I mean law enforcement. That's why I keep harping on this point about CVC 21202
If we want to talk strictly about the law, I can see it leading to a discussion about corking and/or running reds, which is common feature of large group rides. As far as I know, there's nothing in the law that gives us this right or privilege, yet we (and I include myself here) have found ways to justify it on practical grounds.
My vote is to keep the left lane clear, all too often I've witnessed situations where the "lone solider" is in the left lane "defending his rights" and ends up creating a stink that ruins the fun for everyone else. Political or not, I'd like to see the social rides stay fun, and believe that we can have plenty of fun in the two lanes on the right.
I agree, I can't think of a single ride where asserting our right to the road is the primary goal. In fact I think that our right to the road is well excercised and grows more widely recognized and respected with each passing ride. If there is an exception it would be SMCM. But that's another topic.
There is no common agenda between every rider besides a desire to have fun. I think that as a group we have an obligation to preserve that common agenda by being more vocal when another rider's agenda begins to jepordize the common thread that brings us all together.
So short of forming a Stay to the Right, Let the Car Pass type of commitee, the solution is gonna have to take the form of proactive involvement by those of us that follow this thread and agree that verbally challenging the "lone soldier" is a better alternative to whatever automotive hysteria might ensue from letting the car v. bike battle play out.
In general, i think it is usually best to keep the left lane clear for faster traffic (whether it is bus, cars, bicycle, airplane, etc.) It's fair, and it's basic common courtesy. It's also common courtesy, if not law, to pull over and let them pass you if you are holding up more than 5 vehicles on a single lane highway. Seriously, if we're to be treated equally on the road, we can't have all kinds of exceptions just because we're on a bike. On the same note, we should be treated with respect and passed SAFELY. I will be the first person to chase down a driver that passes me dangerously close, or throws things at me. Bullshit is bullshit. And bullshitters should always be called upon, and treated as such.
What they did to Franz & and to all the witnesses was bullshit, no matter how you look at it. They also can't just arbitrarily "take your bike away". You can impound cars on certain situations, bikes are no exception. They can't make threats like that, it's harrassment. Shining lights on witnesses? That's obstruction of justice. Cops know this, and will use their draconian powers to bully you. Sheriffs are well known for using these tactics.
These threads are really annoying me. Not you riders, but the fact that these things happen to us, casually.
These threads are really annoying me. Not you riders, but the fact that these things happen to us, casually.
I agree and I suggest that the best way to keep cops in line is by making it really obvious that we're filming them. Not just one person with a camera, but lots of people w/ video cameras. No frills video cameras are way cheaper than you might think, in fact you can get those one time use ones from WalMart, Rite-Aid, etc....Keep one in your bag for the next time an unlawful cop starts to take liberties with your rights.
Just leave a damn lane open, people. Don't worry, we still think you're punk rock and we acknowledge that you still have a penis. Just let the cars have one lane when it's practical, OK?
Seriously, I hate rules that are SO FUCKING OBVIOUS, it's insulting.
Please allow faster traffic to pass you on the LEFT, period. Don't be an asshole, and make me pass you on the right. It's dangerous, and stupid. If you're slow, MOVE TO THE RIGHT. I don't give a fuck if you are a car, bus, TRAIN, or pedestrian. Move the fuck over! SRSLY. While DRIVING back from the FUTURE, I kept coming up to slow cars in the FAST LANE. WTF. Seriously, WTF?! Move over. If you're a bike, and you hear CAR BACK, move over. It only antagonizes them when you ride down the middle of the LEFT lane. It increases the chances of them passing you dangerously, and no one wants a rear-view mirror whacking them on their back. So, for our safety, just move the fuck over. Cars are bigger than you, period...
NOW, because I always like to back-pedal just a little bit. Because people like to see things in black and white... this doesn't mean to drive in the gutter. You have the RIGHT to ride safely on city streets, so if safely means taking the WHOLE LANE, whether it's the right, left or center lane. And as long as your in the furthest right lane you can SAFELY BE IN. Then own that shit. It's your right, so exercise it. No one likes an asshole who feels entitled.
I just wouldn't go and give any rights away when dealing with the SMPD if you know what I mean?
Oh you don't know what I mean? Make a deal with them. Stop harassing the SMCM ride and we'll police ourselves on the road. The police should get tangible results in less calls concerning blocking lanes.
I just heard tonite on NPR, it cost a city $100,000 a year to support a cop. Gets pretty expensive in the long run for them, so hang in there.
Hmmm, seems like a lot of "I agree, we're so reasonable" group think. How many times has Ridazz been on a 3 lane road, taking up 2 lanes, with a few people drifting near that 3rd lane, and then some crazy motorist zooms by at 45mph. Are you saying it would be better not to occupy that 3rd lane? In the interests of safety I think it often is better. I've seen this happen a million times with SMCM on Lincoln, or Ridazz on Venice or Olympic or Pico or La Brea.
Do y'all really think you're going to corral all these drunken riders?
I realize everyone has MR best interests in mind, but seriously - is this "stay to the right" stuff even feasible? We're not a regimented group.
To say CM has no agenda is BS. The ones I been to, try to draw attention to the struggles of cyclists. The ride itself is a social affair but it has a message.
And again with the frequency and concentration of the rides, it is easy to see why it can be a problem. You cannot expect LA to shut down every weekend just because 1000 cyclist want to take over the streets. We are a city of over 5 million people, we don't have the numbers. Give up a lane.
As a self proclaimed leader of this movement, you should know that compromise will work out better in the long run.
I'm with most everyone with this. Keep the left lane clear, most of the time, there is no real reason we need to take up the entire road, thats a bit selfish. Leave the Blue Light Specials to K-mart, we don't need to give the cops any more reasons to bother the ridezz. Everyone is happy in the end.
to return to the impetus of this thread, it was franz gettin busted by some nazi weho sheriffs. riding safely and reasonably is sensible. however, there's something about being bullied by cops that does not motivate me to act sensibly. my natural response is anger and rebellion. in weho, i for one, will be less likely to play the good citizen.
yes there are assholes that zoom by at 45 miles an hour, but I tthink at least some of them are probably desperately trying to get ahead of the pack of cyclists so they can just get to their destinations..
I'm glad to know that I have the right to be anywhere on the road where practicality if concerned, but I don't need to be a jerk about it. I'll get in the left lane if I need to pass or catch up but what RBI said.
I'm going to Greece in the summer and I was checking all their bike sites. I was surprised to see Critical Mass in Athens staying to the right and always leaving a full lane open. I say "surprised" because I don't remember protesters there as model law abiding citizens but then again it was awhile ago. I guess after I left they put things in order.
Why would it not be feasible? I think the majority of the people on here already agree to stay to the right, so it's just a matter of informing people this is the safest way to ride. Note: not the only way, all the time.
Ask the new people you bring along if they have read the Bicycling Street Smarts link on the main page. Maybe I'm a complete goof (yeah, I am) but I read it over once. Why? Because I'd like to try and eliminate any possible risk of dying on my bike if I can do so.
Live on the edge, ride in the furthest left lane. But you greatly increase your odds of something bad happening to you and that could then in turn hurt the whole image of these rides. Why push it?
My social life is screwed because of my love of bicycling...I hurried home from a date just to enter this fray. I'm screwed...er um I'm not actually.
Anyway, here is the problem.
The nature of these bike rides, whether it's CM or Glo Ride or whatever, is unregulated. I have never been on a group ride where we stay in the right lane. To proclaim that we do, is false. To exclaim that we should have, is disingenuous. We created this monster, or at least perpetuated it, and now we all want to slay it.
It would be wonderful if we could control the large group rides and keep everyone in the right lanes. We could have ride Nazis patrolling up and down the line barking at people "stay to the right!" Who will volunteer? Who will adhere?
The unregulated and orderly chaos is part and parcel to the rides. It has always been this way. To change the ride rules, or actually implement rules, would fundamentally affect everyone.
It seems most of us are in agreement. Stay to the right. Who will be shouting it at the errant bicyclist, or bicyclists, when we ride next?
I always try to tell people to ride to the right and let cars pass. Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't. It isn't easy in the practical application.
Also when a thousand cars decides arbitrarily, to go to Hollywood, they take up both lanes and sit in gridlock. Pedestrians have to fight their way across the street.
Yet when 300 bicycles take to the streets, they are not allowed to take up both lanes. Is it one rule for cars and another rule for bicycles? Separate but equal? Usually one side gets the short stick.
If we are all willing to change the behavior of the rides, then let's all do it. Let's not just talk about it. Let's make a proactive, concerted effort to insure that we keep the left lane clear. Ride up and down the line. Keep everyone to the right. Let's do it and stop talking about how we should have been doing it all along.
If not, let's not deride those who feel that the natural state of the rides is to take up both lanes and enjoy the freedom of riding a bike on the street.
I realize everyone has MR best interests in mind, but seriously - is this "stay to the right" stuff even feasible?
Gosh, no, Alex. There's no possible way for a group of people to understand and adopt a best practice, or to use persuasion/social sanctions to ensure its use. Especially not something as massively complex as "leave one lane open."
I refer you to skd's eloquent post, with these additional comments. At the first MR I attended, the Gang Ride in March 05 (which is somehow missing from the photo gallery listing, did we ever solve that mystery?), I've heard people yell at riders to stay out of the left most lane. It simply has never happened.
If you want to make it happen! then it's going to take a lot of punitive social measures or a 6 months of involved friendly persuasion. The former is no fun . . . in fact psychologists studying group dynamics have learned that being ostracized stimulates the same areas of the brain in similar ways to severe pain, and that it corresponds to similar levels of stress hormone. So, by all means, go that route, but recognize that it's a long route, with a lot negativity.
Or go the friendly group initiative route. I think it will take consistent and determined application of effort to re-acculturate people, but I do think it can be done via in the same means that MR uses to consistently elevate it's FUN levels from year to year. Personally I think we would be better off using that energy in other ways.
Oh I have an idea for a system! On the glo ride, I felt really taken care of by the guys that obviously do the rides all the time who blocked traffic to help the group be safer. I think it is about being safe right? So if the notion of staying to the right is in a respect of the group and is expressed in a healthy not nazi like way, then we are all good! no hurt feelings. I am also new to this so I am still positive and not jaded yet and my opinion might not be that helpful . I hope it is though.
mm hmmm it will all be good. I have faith in it! and I dont have faith in that many things. yea you guys can do it!
You have the right attitude. Though you are new rider, as the Latin/Biblical phrase goes, out of the mouth of babes have we gained strength.
As Alex mentioned, it will take time for the riders to acclimate to a new methodology. Gentle and positive persuasion over a long period will be the best course of action.
WHITCH EVER LANE YOU USE, IF YOU NEED IT, USE IT, SIMPLE, NO USE TALKING ABOUT ALL THIS OTHER SHIT, AND THAT MY FRIEND IS CALIFORNIA STATE LAW, PERIOD.
(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway of a highway, which highway carries traffic in one direction only and has two or more marked traffic lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of that roadway as practicable.
To my mind, this has absolutely nothing to do with the rights of bicyclists vs cars and everything to do with simply being a well-behaved road user. When cars driving the speed limit, or under th speed limit, drive 4 abreast on the freeway, giving no room for anyone to pass, we all find it incredibly frustrating. Personally, I find it annoying even when cars are going significantly faster than the speed limit if they happen to be going slower than I want to be. Just drive in Europe somewhere, where NO ONE will stay in the left hand lane (except americans) after passing on the freeway. I don't care if we are legally within our rights to ride somewhere. It is our responsibility as road users to do what we can to allow other, faster traffic to get through wherever it is is practical to do so. And you won't convince me that the ridazz NEED to occupy 2 or 3 lanes of a road in the vast majority of cases. The bumper stickers show a bicycle icon and then say "Share the road" not "Give up the the road." Yes, cars get into traffic jams and block up entire streets. But they generally don't do it intentionally. Any given car in the pack is usually going as fast as the cars and conditions around them will allow and it is just the nature of chaos and group dynamics that leads to actual jams. Bicycles are not in the same position. Go the front of a group ride bicycle jam and you won't find bicycles going as fast as conditions allow. You'll find bicycles coasting along or, at best, going as fast as their legs can take them, which isn't often as fast as surrounding traffic wants to go. And at that point, the simple "slow traffic keep left" rule applies. Get the hell out of the way and let faster traffic through. It has nothing to do with the law and everything to do with etiquette and behaving as you would want others to behave.
I agree with the others - Keep the left lane open! I've been on rides where the police ask that we just keep the left lane open. We did and everything was cool. If you show them respect they will show you respect.
But If you want make a stand which you are legally have right to do so, expect some harassment and leave MR out of it. MR is about fun and yes we need to be responsible/courteous too!
We want to be a part the community (residents, cars, police...etc) not against it.
Interesting discussion, although I think it drifted too quickly into a debate of the legality of riding in the left lane versus the appropriateness of riding in the left lane.
The original scenario started with cyclists in the left lane and the cops (WeHo Sheriff's Deputies) yelling to get out of the left.
The discussion avoids the inappropriateness of the Deputies behavior and fails to address the appropriate response when instructed to clear the lane (road?) or lose your bikes.
Why are we arguing amongst ourselves on the appropriate behavior of cyclists when the bigger issue is the consistent and predictable unacceptable and intolerable behavior of the WeHo Sheriff's Department.
Once and for all, let's put to rest the notion that any modification of cycling style, behavior, attire or attitude will get a better response from the WeHo Sheriff's Department. They are enviably consistent, albeit in their assholyness.
Whether you want to encourage wholesome cycling and an etiquette of accommodation or scream CVC Code at the moon and exert your right to ride, never ever let the debate distract from the fact that NOBODY has suggested that the Sheriff's Department acted appropriately, professionally, legally, politely or with simple and basic respect for the rights of the people who they purportedly serve.
Btw, the WeHo Watch Commanders (3 of them so far) are so ill-informed on CVC Code that we would do well to ride in the left gutter pan until we can get them to read the book, treat cyclists with some respect and a notion of equality and take a class or two in charm school.
After getting a lecture from Lt. Talmo today on how busy he was and how the rights of a cyclists pale in comparison to the other cases he has to work on, I reminded him that he's on the clock, we're not.
We have our work cut out for us. It starts with NOT pondering how we could have elicited a better response from a Law Enforcement department who have repeatedly demonstrated that they simply do not have a better response.
I can't believe that we can quote CVC regarding our rights to the streets but ignore other laws that we break. Three of the most common are running red lights, operating a bicycle while intoxicated and littering.
Why do you find it so hard to believe? Approximately 100% of the human population of earth breaks some laws occasionally, usually minor ones, while at the same time advocating a generally lawful society and asserting their civil rights / civil liberties as enshrined in law when necessary. Welcome to consensus reality, where things (and, heaven knows, people) aren't always rigidly consistent.
I agree with you Stephen but i think dealing with the Sherrif's Dept. or SMPD, etc. shouldn't be done on the side of the road during a ride. Its not the correct setting. (i'm not telling you anything new, i know). And that's what a lot of riders who've been pulled over are doing.
I was on a small ride 2 Wednesday's ago and a new rider was pulled over because he didn't have a tail light. (This was in DTLA). He was questioned and given a fix-it ticket. But one particular rider kept trying to interfere and was very vocal. That absolutely didn't help the situation, regardless of how we felt we were being picked on/harassed/etc. The cops weren't going to stop their investigation because someone who may or may not have accurate information is screaming at them.
I think its certainly smart to document the incident with cameras, witnesses, etc. as best as possible and then use that effectively in the right context and location.
I am just more aligned with Mr. Rollers response. Just because we can doesn't mean we should ride in the left lane. I'm not saying when the ride is very large, but when the 'lone rider' is obstructing left lane. I want more Drivers to get out of their car and join us. Not un-necessarily piss them off.
I also think a lot of riders have a false sense of entitlement to the road because they are on bikes. As you know better than i, we have the same rights but i don't often hear cyclists take responsibility for their own actions and that its always the other vehicle that's to blame.
Please keep up the awesome work you do!
And i had one last request. For my upcoming Gratefu Dead ride in July, i was thinking of putting a Recap/Summary of the CVC code on the back (instead of route instructions) for everyone.
On rides, i endlessly hear different interpretations of the Vehicle code. ie. We can/ We can't ride on sidewalks,etc. I also know that municipalities have their own variations on the code for their area. This obviously complicates things.
Do you have, or could you put together a little cheat sheet with the basic codes? So, for once and for all we can all be on the same page and speak accurately with what comes out of our mouths? For instance, I got called-out on the sidewalk ruling recently myself and was corrected that in some city you are allowed to ride on the sidewalk.
I guess the point is to remember what steveo4 said:
"I want more Drivers to get out of their car and join us."
that is definitely what I want, but maybe not all groups want. Each group as a whole should know what they want out of the rides and that way people will be on the same page and something like Slow Traffic Keep Right would be a much easier rule to execute efficiently. Of course that is just an example and maybe some groups have different agendas. I think it might be important to have a bit of an agenda. At least so that everyone is on the same page.
If you remember at the whole Franz scene, no one knew what to do. A lot of little groups left, some people stood back, some went to help and we all realized the most power was held in the large group. People said "hey next time lets stick together and help if someone is getting arrested." my point is not to help someone from getting arrested, but if there was at least a really rough agenda, some thing like "we want people to join" or "we dont want people to join," then the group mentality is more together, keeping the group more together physically, thus making the group stronger.
Basically, I am a strong advocate in the group knowing what they want. I want more people to start riding and I think respecting all that is around will be a more inviting atmosphere.
It sounds like most people want to be in the right lane now, but I find it important to clarify why we are going to do that, in order to help it happen most efficiently.
I wholeheartedly disagree with the sentiment that cops' behaviour doesn't change based on the response they get from their 'victims.' I happen to count a number of police, border patrol, and CHP officers amongst my friends and family and every single one of them will tell you that politeness and cooperation tempers their own attitude when in any non-life-threatening situation. And I've seen it demonstrated in real life countless times, too. I usually pull over before an oncoming cop who is obviously going to bust me for speeding can even get his car turned around. 9 times out of 10, I wind up with a warning as a result. I keep my hands where they can see them, I respond with 'please,' 'thank you,' and use 'sir' and "ma'am" constantly. Put away your ego and understand that they have a job to do - a job that is very likely at odds with your own personal goals at that moment.
Now, interacting with a large group is always going to be different. FOr starters, you have to understand that your average law enforcement officer will not feel terribly safe when surrounded by a large number of bodies, no matter how non-threatening they may be. This means that the politeness gambit only takes you so far. But it sure as hell doesn't hurt any, either. Call up the LAPD sometime and ask for a ridealong. Spend a shift sitting next to a LEO in LA on a weekend night and see if you don't come away with a whole lot more respect for what they do.
They don't want to mess with 200 ridazz on bicycles. But if said ridazz don't listen to their requests, you can bet they are going to take it personally. If everyone had followed their directions and simply cleared the left lane, odds are good they wouldn't have even stopped and nothing else would have happened. But having to continually repeat themselves inevitably aggravated them and made them hostile.
And for all the talk of our right to occupy whatever the hell lane we want, we are forgetting that there are statutes in California that require you to comply with any lawful command by a cop. So even if you are legally in the left lane, if a cop tells you to clear the lane, he is well within his rights to arrest you or cite you for failing to obey. It's the same reason you must pull over when a cop pulls you over and failing to do so is an entirely different infraction than whatever he actually pulled you over for in the first place.
So rather than being all aggro with any cops we encounter who ask us to temper our behaviour for the benefit of other road users, we'd do well to obey them and foster a positive relationship with the various police forces. If they see us as a lawless, unruly mob, they'll treat us that way. If they see us as respectful and legitimate road users, they'll treat us a whole lot better. It is really not that hard.
Sugar magnolia, blossoms blooming, heads all empty and I don't care,
Saw my baby down by the river, knew she'd have to come up soon for air.
Sweet blossom come on, under the willow, we can have high times if you'll abide
We can discover the wonders of nature, rolling in the rushes down by the riverside.
She's got everything delightful, she's got everything I need,
Takes the wheel when I'm seeing double, pays my ticket when I speed
She comes skimmin' through rays of violet, she can wade in a drop of dew,
She don't come and I don't follow, waits backstage while I sing to you.
Well, she can dance a Cajun rhythm, jump like a willys in four wheel drive.
She's a summer love for spring, fall and winter. She can make happy any man alive.
Sugar magnolia, ringing that bluebell, caught up in sunlight, come on out singing
I'll walk you in the sunshine, come on honey, come along with me.
She's got everything delightful, she's got everything I need,
A breeze in the pines and the sun and bright moonlight, lazing in the sunshine yes
indeed.
Sometimes when the cuckoo's crying, when the moon is half way down,
Sometimes when the night is dying, I take me out and I wander around, I wander
'round.
Sunshine, daydream, walking in the tall trees, going where the wind goes
Blooming like a red rose, breathing more freely,
Ride our singin', I'll walk you in the morning sunshine
Sunshine, daydream. Sunshine, daydream. Walking in the sunshine.
Let's not hijack this thread with my upcoming, dancing in the streets, ride. I'll start a thread soon enough.
And RBI, i would love some help with a few choice tracks. I have over 4 hours of music already penciled out, but i am searching for a couple of different versions that i don't have in my collection. I'll be in touch.
There are rights...
There are laws...
Three is being practicle...
There is being sociable...
Two wrongs never make a right...
A tit for a tat...
Us versus them...
It doesn't take a halfwit (fuckwit in UK/Eire) to figure out what would resolve a lot what are cycling issues with other road users, does it?? HAving said that as I once said to a cop..."If there are a group of cyclists, a group of motorists or a group of police officers, there is always one arsehole ion the group.
Let's just try to have the majority of sensible thinking people rise to the top.
How about a practicle and sensible ride........NO?? OK then.
Another I don't understand is... why do people mill around when someone gets a ticket? Surrounding the LEO and adding your .02 when unsolicited only makes matters worse. You have a better chance of talking yourself out of a ticket if you give the LEO some sense of control. A hard pill to swallow but it helps.
Another tip I learned from years of riding with a motorcycle club is, once someone is stopped, do not stop too close to the LEO. Go up the road a bit and and wait. If someone has to come back, be as non threatening as you can. The problem with everyone stopping too close is, LEO can decide to write more tickets.
I know it seems against the Ridazz theme of 'No Rida Left Behind' but it is a practical approach. On a recent ride, several of us ran a red light. The cop turn his lights on and 2 stopped, one should had kept on riding and waited with the rest up the further up the road.
Another I don't understand is... why do people mill around when someone gets a ticket?
What I don't understand is why more people don't "mill around." The more people remaining on the scene, the more witnesses to whatever the cop potentially does wrong. And the more chance of video evidence if there's any abuse, harassment, excessive force etc.
Surrounding the LEO and adding your .02 when unsolicited only makes matters worse.
Wrong. If somebody can point out, AT THE TIME, something that the cops are doing wrong--like citing somebody for a section of the CVC that doesn't apply--this can be introduced as evidence in a trial by declaration.
I know it seems against the Ridazz theme of 'No Rida Left Behind' but it is a practical approach.
It seems like it's against the "no rida left behind" theme because it is.
SNIFFING EACH OTHERS BUTTS AND EXCLAIMING HOW POLITE IT IS TO LEAVE LEFT LANE OPEN BY A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO CAPACITY TO MAKE THIS CHANGE IN RIDER BEHAVIOR
I am presenting an alternative that I know works. Problem is when someone gets ticket and is discussed in this forum it us against the cops. I find it hard to believe that we are right all the time. Unfortunately when challenged, most cops won't make a decision, they'll let the courts do that. But at that point, it is already too late; you've already got a ticket. Too much time and effort is spent on fighting tickets that could have been avoided.
As for the the tip on "No Riders Left Behind'. That theme has been used by motorcycle clubs for a very long time and it is something that our club adheres to religiously. But in the instance of someone being stop we all know to stop and wait down the road. If per chance someone decides to stop they get chastised by the group because there is nothing they can do to help and all they did is present another opportunity for someone else to get a ticket. It is a rookie mistake that we've all done based on a mistaken sense of loyalty.
To you and your club, maybe it's a "mistake." I don't think so. I can think of a few incidents on group bicycle rides where the people who didn't wimp out and go down the road were able to help the ticketed person later on with witness testimony or photo/video evidence.
And this thread has reached new levels of wtf...haha....
There is no debate here, it's simply a thread that has been born out of one incident and has at its core the CVC, which I don't think everyone knew. We can't expect everyone who goes on a MR ride to know all the laws that apply to them, although they should. If we are riding on the road like a car, then like a car driver we should know the laws that apply to us. So, ask your friends if they know about the laws. No need to be a dick about it and try and seem all high and mighty, which is why if it comes from a friend, it's just about looking out for their safety. No, I will not ride up and down the line yelling at everyone who is in the left lane for all the reasons that have been stated.
Just be safe. I've only been riding out here for 5 months and I've already seen two people go to the hospital and myself broken my finger. That's why we cork and break the laws we do. Not to be bad asses but to keep the group ride going as safely as possible.
Satan, if you were really diabolical you would have put some content in between the fake PC post and your own signature. You're on a tricycle in more ways than one, my friend.
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Ridazz Roulette!
If User1 stopped shaving he would look just like Jerry for the Dead Ride.
Its my money, and I need it NOW!
they should be yelling this from their windows