Suppose they had a war and nobody came?
User103.17.08 - 6:10 pm
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yes......yes...........yes..............yes..........yes.
TWBG vs. WAR
Ms. Stephanie03.17.08 - 6:20 pm
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GOOD IDEA!!!
TWBG vs. WESTSIDE
User103.17.08 - 6:33 pm
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I believe it says war not wesside ,Usa1
skano03.17.08 - 6:36 pm
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SKANO VS REGULAR MIKE
Now I would pay big $$$$ to see that!!!!!
User103.17.08 - 6:39 pm
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Anyone putting a ride together for this?
User103.20.08 - 1:40 pm
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I propose we go there on Thursday the 10th, or on Sunday the 13th. Because there are too many rides going on for the other days.
Anyone want to post it for me? Please?
Joe Borfo03.21.08 - 3:30 pm
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The 10th is that discussion panel at the Getty. I'll put up the details Sunday night.
User103.21.08 - 4:54 pm
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The 13th, sunday is an open day, no rides listed. How bout doing a ride to this on that day?
User103.27.08 - 8:53 pm
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I'm a huge supporter of dissent and speaking up when you see something wrong, there fore a proponent of this event. But in referance to the picture up top I hope that people aren't criminalizing the Service members. Ironically enough I'm sitting here at work all night and I'm watching my unit leave for Iraq as we speak. It's a very proud and sad moment right now with all the families saying good bye, but in the end we're more of a peace keepnig force than combatant if you ask me. I don't want to start an argument but I don't like seeing Service Memebers blamed, criminalized, and hated. It just makes this war that much more difficult. If there is something wrong look to the top of the Pyramid, not the base, it's foundation. Support the Troops, Challenge Government!
dolamyte03.28.08 - 12:29 am
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dolamyte -
"It's a very proud and sad moment right now with all the families saying good bye, but in the end we're more of a peace keepnig force than combatant if you ask me. I don't want to start an argument but I don't like seeing Service Memebers blamed, criminalized, and hated. It just makes this war that much more difficult. If there is something wrong look to the top of the Pyramid, not the base, it's foundation. Support the Troops, Challenge Government!"
dolamyte, so tell me what is it that you're proud of? You actually believe they are fighting for our freedom or something? We are a peace keeping force is what your president wants you to believe. We are an OCCUPYING force. PERIOD! Who the f**k got you believing we're a peace keeping force? You believe your boys and I guess you don't do any wrong? How did you and or your boys not get caught up being part of the problem? Yeah I guess I would feel a little symphony if this was their first deployment, chances are pretty slim that's the case. How is your boys any different from what we are hearing from the other soldiers?
Winter Soldiers Sound Off These guys are BSing us? And finally what the fuck does "support the troops" mean? Support the troops like, "come on dude, you can waste that kid, do it!" That kind of support? Anyone that behind the troops are blind! I'm not saying spit on the troops when they come home, which btw, they never could found an instance where that happened after the Vietnam war. I'm just saying that they have lost any symphony I have for them years ago! They're are just as much to blame as the ones at the top!
User103.28.08 - 2:08 am
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@user 1
Ouch! First off I did not mean "Support the Troops" "come on dude, you can waste that kid, do it!" This is appauling. But whats even more appaling is people picketing memorial services for Troops that have died. When I talk about support, I am reffering to helping those who are out, medical benefits, jobs, and even thouse who are staying should still be treated like humans. I have seen with my own eyes Troops coming home with no family to welcome them, people who tell them to fuck off, the number of attcks here in 29 alone has black listed sever bars and business's over they years., making them off limits to Service Members.
Second off NO ONE, NOT YOU, THE PRESIDENT OR EVEN MY OWN MOM WILL EVER TELL ME WHAT TO THINK. There is no mental conditining that takes place before, during or after a deployment. No one tells us what to think and a lot of people I know (active duty) have their own opinions, both for and agaist this war. In the end it doesnt matter what I think, only that I execute my orders if and when given. That is why I said focus on the top, not the bottom. There has not been one Marine, EVER, that has mad a call about this war. Even our Commandant, our top dog was denied when he asked congress to pull Marines out of Iraq.
Third your referance to the Winter Soldiers is most likely out of context. This story took place from a reservist and not an actice duty member, and from the Army. Durring the initial stages of the War, like anything new, certain efforts are used to minimize causulites on both side. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO ELIMINATE THEM ENTIRELY. I was in the Marines in 2003 and no such orders were ever given that reflect those of that story. As Marines we are at the tip of the spear when it comes to battle, we are the first to go in every time. No one I know was ever told to run over children if they got in the way. If such an event was happening that Troop lives were at critical risk and an ordert to pull back was issued, there would never be any children running around the streets. Every civilian would be inside with their families. The mention of a Soldier(Army) throwing a child to the streets is bullshit. I challenge if that ever happned. The only time I know of children coming close to tactical vehicels is when we are handing out candy, madical aid, food, clothing, blankets ect. We go through specific training about the rules of engagement, cultural softening, and anything else that deals with involvment with Iraqi peoples. We even have Iraqi citizens here in 29 for just that reason. To help us understand the region, language, cultures, and even local news papers from Iraq are used to add to this effort. We are trying to build up a nation, not destoy it.
I say that we are there to cool the fires more than anything else. Just becuase we are occupying doesnt mean that we are hell bent on killing and destroying everything. Yes there are still conflicts, not as much as before, but yes, they still occure. We just broke 4,000 deaths in over 5 years of a war. This is compared to over 58,000 of vietnam, about 6000 per year, not quite our 800 or so. I'm not saying this is ok, I don't like death on either side, but all we can do now is challege government. Our Troops have incredible facilites made available to them in Iraq, such as Baskin Robins, one Member per room, Internet, gyms, nail and hair salons. In fact what they have available to them in country far exceeds what I rate here in 29. Most Members here are two to a room, and some people actually perfer being in Iraq vise here in 29 for just that reason.
But lastly SHAME ON YOU. I did not bash, point out anyone, or even make any refrenace to anything but that picture. I do not wish to start a battle, I mearly asked that instead of hating Troops, realize that it's the top men making these calls. I dont want to see a repeat of vietnam, post war leftovers and shamed men and women for serving their country. I thinks is an honorable profession, I am glad of the choices that I MAKE OF MY OWN FREE WILL. It doesn't matter if I support this war or not, and fankly I don't care if you or anyone else does. I'm just glad that people are questioning it. You firing back at me the way you did was very hurtful, slightly immature and achived nothing but project your anger onto me, but in the end I'm glad that you can do that, it's why I'm here, to try and give back a little something to a nation that gives us our freedoms. You can hate me for being a Marine, it wouldn't be the first time, but I ask that you see me as who I am as a person, not a reflection of those issuing my orders. This goes for and everyone else serving.
dolamyte03.28.08 - 3:08 am
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@dolamyte
I posted that picture haphazardly. No disrespect to you, or our troops. I am just supporting free expression and the nature of this event which called to me.
Joe Borfo03.28.08 - 3:58 am
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dolamyte wrote:
I don't want to start an argument but I don't like seeing Service Memebers blamed, criminalized, and hated.
If they're blameworthy, they should be blamed. If not, not. If they're behaving criminally, they should be criminalized. If not, not.
Nobody should really be hated, but that's another issue.
PC03.28.08 - 4:06 am
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@Joe Borfo
I'm not worried about that picture in all honesty, in fact I find it interesting. I know that the time I have on this site is limited but I know that no one here is puposfully disrespectful. I support free expression as well, so right on!
@PC
My post did not include an important point that you brought up. If someone is deserving of punishment, criminalization, or even being hated, then it's deserved. But when I go out some where and someone asks if I'm in the Marines and I respond with a yes, I have been verbally abused, and even attacked just on that premise. This is one reason I avoid talking about my job and what not. It's not that I'm not proud of what I do, just some people brand or label me from the get go because of it. Either way you both were on the mark with what I was trying to express, so thank you.
_____
it's a good day for me when I see someone upset about whats going on and they are voicing their opinion. Even if it's hurtful or completely different than another view, I'm just glad that everyone here is open and expressive. That includes User1's thoughts, which I respect and I hope that I can meet him on some of the ridezz this weekend. Everyone here is awesome!
dolamyte03.28.08 - 7:52 am
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dolamyte,
You'll have a response from me Saturday. I just wanted to ask you a quick question, well three really. Do you believe the forces are there protecting our freedoms? And do you think the forces are doing more good than harm by being there? And where's all your coalition if the forces are so righteous?
Don't worry about an immediate response, I will understand you also have limited time.
User103.28.08 - 10:17 am
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ONE LESS TANK!
ONE LESS TANK!
ONE LESS TANK!
ONE LESS TANK!
ONE LESS TANK!
PIZZAWOLF03.28.08 - 10:27 am
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why is everyone so pissed off with all this??
Don't they realise by going overseas and flexing muscle we are testing weapons in order to 'protect' america. Plus we are supporting the MITITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX and therefore helping our sagging economy!!! I meaqn that benefits all of us .......right???????????????
Limeyfly03.28.08 - 10:39 am
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ideasculptor's finger in yo delicious' anus.
everybody wins!
spiraldemon03.28.08 - 10:41 am
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ideasculpta'ss finga in you're delish's anoos.
everyone's a winna!
spiraldemon03.28.08 - 10:43 am
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All that I know is we need more people like dolamyte in the military.
We still need the armed forces in this day age, many folks in the military don't have much choice about being there, lots of them use their service to go to college or learn a trade, most folks in the military don't have a say on foreign policy, and there are bad apples in the military and those should be dealt with just like any bad apples anywhere.
toweliesbong03.28.08 - 10:44 am
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If you have a poorly run company and it loses money or goes bankrupt, there is only one person you can blame, ...the person at the top
Limeyfly03.28.08 - 10:55 am
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@ user1
I am happy to answer your questions, but I ask that yu please understand more than a time constraint, that I cannot just act and talk as I please.
1-I think this questions would have been better posed three, four, or even five years ago. I believe that during the initial stage that yes we were being protected here back home. As of now I think that we are protecting the civialians and Iraqi's that want change. I think our efforts are more for them rather than us. We butt in with their issues and if we back out now everything will only rescess and possible worsen. I want to see their new government established, active, and able to succed without us. They have their own Military, Police, Schools, and Hospitals thanks to the efforts we lay down out there.
2-This is a subjective questions, and I think that everyone will have their own opinions. I ask that if you see a Marine is the streets ask him. More of us believe that we are helping not hurting. Most of the people I know come back with little more than humanitairan service stories, no combat. In fact my very good friend and former room mate after his return told me that he checked his rilfe into the armory as soon as he arrived and never touched it till he returned. This is a regular occurance there, but when was the last time your heard that on the news.
3-righteousness is not something I practice, nor does any one else over there. We are given a mission and we set to sccomlish it with in a geiven set of Laws of War and Rule of Engagement. Those that devieate from them are punished, but at no time to we become righteous about it. Not every one is a heavily invested int his War as we are. Australias new Prime Minister plans are bringing back all of thier combat forces, only about 1000 Member, but they are leaving the rest, mostly logistics inplace to help.
I hope this is satisfactory, it is illegal for me to speak out against the government and this war, but I still retain my own toughts and feelings. And if you ask more please ask away! I will do my best to answer them. In general to everyone reading, please be critical of what you read and hear, it's edited, dubbed, and sometimes inaccurate. I am a good source, I live it everyday and if you ahve any questions I am happy to answer them, and if I don't know I will try to find out. Also just as a list minute thought, most everyone that deploys I would guess at 85-90% never leave the wire, go out on patrols, and are more bored trying to stay occupied with their regular jobs and will never fire a shot while there.
dolamyte03.28.08 - 11:44 am
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And the person at the top still gets the big bucks on his way out. Fucking bullshit.
toweliesbong03.28.08 - 11:44 am
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@limefly
You are right on track with this. In previous war, WWII for example, there was a lot of commraderie amongst citizens, they grouped together to help out. Every war leads to new or rev amped industry. All those new tanks, Hummers, 7 ton trucks, and the new line up hitting now all have to be built, that requires jobs, jobs eqauls people earning money which equals them spending it, which equals a strengthened economy! never before has such a backing fomrm contractor making our gear ever been allowed this close to us. They are every where, There are even several manufacturers of the same product. The last five years I have been issued four different types of body armour, and a fith is on the way. before this was I was issued Flak jackets that were from the vietnam era, and only recently have been updated. The industry is huge, we just need to stop predatory home lending now.
dolamyte03.28.08 - 11:49 am
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@dolamyte,
I think you're missing Lfly's point.
toweliesbong03.28.08 - 11:52 am
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@ towelies
Thanks for the nice words about me! I hope I can ride with you tonight or sometime this weekend! You are reiterating my exact setiments, just with much fewer words. But like you said the big guy leaves with the big bucks, but also look for the ones that just left. Out last Commandant, general Hagee left early becuase he said that the pentagon and congress weren't listening to him, Colin Powell also left for similar reasons, and our new Top Dog is being ignored and denied. It's not even the military calling these shots folks, its our congress, and if you don't like it, flame them, thats all Im saying. Being mad at me or the Military isn't going to change anything in this war, we aren't making the big calls.
dolamyte03.28.08 - 11:54 am
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Being fesicious?sarcastic right? I got it, but there is some truth to it. If I'm still wrong please enlighten.
dolamyte03.28.08 - 11:56 am
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Yeah, that stuff may be good for the short-term economy but it's not for the long-term.
I'm going to try like hell to be at LACM and Hollywood Ridazz tonight. Pic is in my profile, riding a gun metal gray Motobecane, usually in shorts and a black hoodie.
toweliesbong03.28.08 - 12:00 pm
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Yea once the War is over the industy starts to decrease inthe area. For example there was a company that up until about three years ago was floating bankrupcy, and then new contracts stated coming in and lets say i would ahve put in 10 grand for stocks back then, I would be ablet o go and buy a house iwth cash right now and still have some left over.
If you come Ill be in my Silver Motobecane, FS MTB!
dolamyte03.28.08 - 12:06 pm
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I agree with Dolamyte's concern about the image at the top.
It looks Banksyesque and it may be based on a an actual photo with a little red paint for embellishment.
The problem I have with an image like that as a representation of this event and being presented without any other context is: that even if it is based on an actual image,
as a graphic it becomes a generic representation of an American solder committing an abuse or atrocity. It is generalized stereotypes weather based on somebody's race, gender, religion, or political association, that makes it much easier to direct hatred at anonymous individuals instead of focusing on the system of control we all belong to. ie. If we pay taxes, use ANY petro-energy, participate in this system, we are also culpable in this war.
Scapegoating solders because they are solders is extremely counter-productive.
Some solders, like the ones we saw at the winter solder conference, or members the IVAW, and many more who we never hear of, are fine people who are try to do their job as humanely and compassionately as possible. Many regret their decision to sign up, but want to honor their contractual commitment. Too many will return maimed, scarred, or dead.
Yes solders who are abusive and commit crimes and injustices should be held personally accountable. More importantly, though, the administration who has created Rules of Engagement that put a lot of young men and women in a position to accidentally kill innocent people they truly believe they are trying to help.
People at the top are rarely held accountable. Look at all the torture, abuse, and murder of detainees that has happened as a direct result from directives determined by The White House, State Department, and commanding Generals. There is clear documentation of those directives yet with extremely rare exception it is the lowly foot solder who takes the shame, blame, and punishment. Some piss-ant knuckle-head 89 IQ solder is in jail and The president is not only not condemned he is re-elected. Alberto Gonzalez then white house council (author of the "torture memo") was not only held unaccountable he got a promotion to AG.
I think it is extremely dangerous and misguided to direct anger, hatred or blame, against unknown solders, based on the fact that they have or are serving; for what is happening in Iraq. When it is mostly the corrupt broken system, many well-meaning but misdirected solders, and a minority of abusive/ criminal solders causing the majority of pain, suffering, and death of innocent civilians.
Check out this excerpt on Howard Zinn and his experience from serving as a bomber WWII and how it led to his work as a strident Anti-War activist/ Progressive Historian.
PS FUCK THIS FUCKING WAR!
trickmilla03.28.08 - 12:22 pm
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^^^^^
What he said,
Trick+99999999999
dolamyte03.28.08 - 12:30 pm
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I'm always getting misunderstood
I should attend writers and speakers classes and learn to be more articulate and also speak with a 'proper' accent
Oh!! and just incase...............LOL!!
@Trick, nice piece, just read it. Didn't Eisenhower first warn about the MIC??
RIght! back ot work........
Limeyfly03.28.08 - 12:44 pm
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trickmilla wrote:
The problem I have with an image like that as a representation of this event and being presented without any other context is: that even if it is based on an actual image, as a graphic it becomes a generic representation of an American solder committing an abuse or atrocity. It is generalized stereotypes weather based on somebody's race, gender, religion, or political association, that makes it much easier to direct hatred at anonymous individuals instead of focusing on the system of control we all belong to. ie. If we pay taxes, use ANY petro-energy, participate in this system, we are also culpable in this war.
That's sanctimonious bullshit, I'm afraid, even if it's well-intentioned.
The picture is a picture of war. It's a picture of this war, and it's a picture of what our troops are doing, whether you want to confront that or not.
PC03.28.08 - 1:46 pm
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PC,
Do you know all details of that image? What the context is? Where it took place? What precipitated that particular event?
toweliesbong03.28.08 - 2:25 pm
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For all I know, it's a drawing. Do you really think that makes a difference? Picture X lacks a caption giving the specific context in which the the action depicted takes place, therefore US troops are not right now going into people's houses and dragging them away for interrogation?
PC03.28.08 - 2:30 pm
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Without addressing that image specifically I will say that people need to know what they're voting for when they vote for war. Most of us are well aware of the American casualty figures, but take the time to look up the toll that this has had on the population of Iraq. No matter how we rationalize it, war is always the same . . . an atrocity.
Having said that, I think a case can be made for treating soldiers just like any other exploited workers in a capitalist society.
mr rollers03.28.08 - 3:24 pm
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"Having said that, I think a case can be made for treating soldiers just like any other exploited workers in a capitalist society."
As a current member of the exploited class I wholeheartedly agree.
toweliesbong03.28.08 - 3:28 pm
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"Do you really think that makes a difference?"
Yes, I do. I will start with a cliché, there are two sides to every story. Misinformation goes both ways. I'm not saying there are no atrocities being committed by US and coalition forces. What I'm saying is that I would rather know the whole story rather than base my opinions on some random image.
Do you really think that images from the war should be used only to vilify all of our soldiers, sailors, and marines?
toweliesbong03.28.08 - 3:34 pm
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I used the word
sanctimonious for a reason. This is what happens when you take the "support the troops but not the war" thing to its logical conclusion. It gets to the point--it's gotten to the point--where people think that you're transgressing some big unspoken rule if you point out that US troops are, in fact, doing awful things in Iraq right now. This is absurd. You sanctify the soldier/sailor/marine, and it's just as anti-intellectual and counterproductive as it would be to reflexively villify him. Either way it's a flight from truth.
Another thing that's absurd is critiquing political poster art for being, well, political. There are two sides to every story? Yeah, no shit. Actually, there are a lot of sides to every story. This is relevant if we're talking about objective journalism. We aren't, though. Hey, but maybe Picasso should have included a panel at the bottom right corner of
Guernica giving equal time to the notion that modern warfare doesn't cause chaos, helplessness and suffering among civilians.
PC03.28.08 - 4:27 pm
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@PC
I understand what you are saying, but with regards to troops pulling people from their homes for interrogation, it doesn't really happen like that. The methods used for arrest, detention and rarely the subsequent interrogation are not aggressive. In all of my training I have never been taught to walk a prisoner like that. We escort, not push, or rough around. Most of the time they are walked single file with only a couple of Marines with them. Now for higher priority or more "VIP" prisoners, they get one on one attention, but even then it's not like that picture, unless the prisoner was forceful, resisting or causing problems, but again there are others ways we deal with that!
dolamyte03.28.08 - 5:08 pm
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Transcript from the Winter Soldier hearings:
We get backup with Apache helicopters, Bradley fighting vehicles, and we go back into this nice little village, asking questions. And, you know, it’s a pretty good history in Iraq. You know, if you got beef with your neighbor back in Saddam’s day, you just say, “Hey, police, he said something bad about Saddam. Why don’t you go get him?” And they take him, and they torture him. Well, now, here with the US, we’re asking, “Who are the troublemakers?,” and we hear from the people in the village that these people are troublemakers over here. So we go, and myself and another soldier steps off, and we toss the hut. Well, the only thing I find is a little .22 pistol, not AK-47s, not RPGs, not pictures of Saddam, not large caches of money. But we end up taking the two young men, regardless. And I looked at my sergeant, and I was like, “Sergeant, these aren’t the men that we’re looking for.” And he told me, “Don’t worry. I’m sure they would have done something anyways.” And this mother, all the while, is crying in my face, trying to kiss my feet. And, you know, I can’t speak Arabic. I can speak human. She was saying, “Please, why are you taking my sons? They have done nothing wrong.” And that made me feel very powerless. You know, 82nd Airborne Division, Infantry, with Apache helicopters, Bradley fighting vehicles and armor and my M4—I was powerless. I was powerless to help her.
And I was very naive back then. I thought that, you know, they would just take them and find out, yeah, they don’t know anything. But later I found out people who were detained were—are being detained for years. Parents don’t even know where their children are. --Hart Viges, 82nd Airborne
But, hey, as long as they're being "walked single file," it's cool. Right?
PC03.28.08 - 5:52 pm
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@PC
What I meant by single file and minimal security is that they aren't being man handled like the picture suggests. If it's a one on one deal then we might keep a hand on them, one, to keep a buffer zone of about one arms distance, and also to have some control, just like they do in prison here in the states. I really don't want to argue this, you have your ideas and opinions, seemingly based on an article that reports war crimes, that for some reason these soldiers were never charged with, while I have my first hand information. If those stories are true then please consider that these account for only a fraction of a sliver of whats going on out there. There is more to be said, good and bad I would just rather not do it online, but like I've offered, I'm always up for a civilized discussion in person!
dolamyte03.28.08 - 6:06 pm
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Soldiers/Marines/Sailors, etc. they're only human. I would know.
the reverend dak03.28.08 - 6:06 pm
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Hey PC,
I had to hit the dictionary to figure out what names you were calling me.
Once I figured out what
sanctimonious meant: "hypocritically pious" I had to look up
pious : "religious devotion" ....
Hmmm I guess nobody would cop to being a hypocrite, but I'm not sure how that applies to my critique of the image and it's apparent use to advertise this event.
Religious devotion? The closest things I have religious devotion to are my lady, my cat, my bike, and my stupid record collection and none of those fine things made their way into my previous post.
I'm not sure what I wrote that gave you the idea that I am hypocritically devoted to anything in the subject of my last post or why you are attacking me or my writing with big words.
All I can say as an artist that has produced political graphics I think its very important to be very tactical in how one directs their anger and attention. I am of course not attacking the poster for being political, but critiquing what I think is a misguided politic or perhaps an ineloquent expression.
Furthermore that image (as it exists without other contextual imagery or information) does NOTHING to tell us what the effects of war are. Its an image taken completely out of context then flourished with some fake blood to make it look scarier.
There are a million other (more effective) ways to point at some of the issues that the poster in question was trying to touch. Not to mention a million other aspects of the war that I (personally) think are more important to focus on for instance the fact that that aggressive soldier was more than likely acting exactly how he his being expected or forced to act. Focusing only on that soldier is as stupid as going to a puppet show and applauding (or booing) the puppets and not acknowledging the puppet makers or the puppeteer or for that matter the theater owner.
My main point really is that by using the image of a soldier as some overly simplified stereotype I think the image mis-directs where our anger and attention should be focused.
I never said "support the troops and not the war".
I am saying that the people over there are human beings, some good, some bad, some that can easily be swayed one way or the other. That reducing them all down to a propagandistic icon, (either hero or villain) really just is a way for people to be able to (mis)direct undeserving praise or anger at a symbol that stands in for hundreds of thousands of real people. Meanwhile distracting us from the real purveyors of this war, and the real victims (iraqis and americans alike).
It is possible to hate this war. Without vilifying those on the bottom who must choose between participating in an immoral war at the risk of life limb and sanity, and risk facing a legal meat-grinder that will do its best to ruin their lives if they resist.
It is possible to make graphic expressions that speak explicitly about the horrors, immorality, and injustices of war with out scapegoating those on the very bottom of the MIC food chain.
Winter Soldier Confrence 2008
trickmilla03.28.08 - 6:26 pm
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I'm kind of on the fence when it comes to this issue.
I feel that unless I was personally involved with the military in some way, I tend to stay out of any war-argument.
I mean, other's have their opinions and that's cool, but I just personally feel that you gotta bust your gut over there before you start protesting/supporting the war efforts.
bentstrider03.28.08 - 6:29 pm
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The picture is a picture of war. It's a picture of this war, and it's a picture of what our troops are doing, whether you want to confront that or not.
PC
03.28.08 - 4:46 pm
All that bullshit and I didn't even address this point:
The image is a picture of A soldier presented out of context.
Put a name and a caption on it and I would start to be able to address it as a "reality" of this war. However as it is presented as a graphic and out of context it doesn't vilify THE soldier in the picture but ALL soldiers. Which of course is as stupid as heroizing ALL soldiers.
For all we know (without context) it could be an MP in orange county dealing with a teenage son of a general who was skateboarding on the base. Or it could be an Iraqi civilian who is being abused, or it could be two models posing for the artist, or it could be totally made up.
Assuming that it is based on a "real" photo from iraq we still have no idea what is happening unless we have context.
trickmilla03.28.08 - 6:41 pm
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For some reason, people in the U.S. have decided to give soldiers a pass on the shit they do when they are paid by the government to commit heinous acts against other human beings.
A clump of my friends from high school were dumb enough to get suckered into the National Guard, and have spent a few years in either Iraq or Afghanistan - and I don't "support" them, i feel bad for them.
One of the most important moral questions a person can make ("Who will I kill?") has been answered for them. They are turned into moral retards "for their country". They have sacrificed their humanity for a paycheck (and in two cases, an education loan).
Soldiers (at least the grunts) are paid to train to kill people - that pick at the top is pretty much right on in my opinion.
ubrayj0203.29.08 - 2:27 am
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I think a couple of you are going to have to get back to me after you figure out the difference between art and war correspondence. If this were the 19th century, you would be demanding that Goya provide the names and addresses of the soldiers and civilians he depicted in his etchings of atrocities during the Napoleonic invasion of Spain.
PC03.29.08 - 6:20 am
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One might also want to ponder the difference between documenting war by painting in the pre-photomechanical era (when paintings actual served to document history) and making a graphic poster based on an actual existing war photo removed from context, and the relationship to that poster to the original image.
trickmilla03.29.08 - 9:31 am
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that picture is art, and it's started an interesting conversation,
borfo maybe you shudda just posted one from GITMO, or will those be taken out of context too? I guess the geneva convention doesn't apply to some people,
dannyzuko03.29.08 - 9:40 am
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trickmilla, it's art, not journalism. The experience of looking at art, even political poster art, is always a collaboration between the artist and the viewer. The viewer provides much of the context, and you're not giving the viewer any credit at all here: you're assuming that her response to the picture will be as simplistic as yours has been*. Remember, you are the one who has decided unilaterally that the picture simply "vilifies" the troops.
The person looking at the picture may see a brutal mindless military pig robot humiliating a prisoner for kicks, or she may see a scared, frustrated 20-year-old kid who is just as demeaned by the role he's playing as the prisoner is by his. She may see something else in the relationship between soldier and prisoner that neither you nor I could conceive of (to say nothing of the relationships between soldier and higher ranks, between front-line fighters and the rear echelon, between military and the folks back home, between the prisoner and his local militias or terrorist groups, etc). The viewer can and will interpret the picture according to any of a literally infinite number of nuanced attitudes toward war, this particular war, militarism, culture, human nature.
Regardless of the interpretation, the viewer can't help but absorb the message that war is ghastly, sordid, and dehumanizing...which may help explain why the event is called "LA vs WAR." Of course, it's still biased toward a particular political view, but...hello, it's poltical poster art. If you want objectivity, read the Wall Street Journal. (You won't find it there, either, but you can tell yourself that you do.)
As I said before, this is going on, and our troops are doing it, whether you care to confront it or not, and whether you want the rest of us to confront it or not. Whether you like it or not, pictures like that are going to be the enduring image of the Iraq war, for people in Iraq and for people over here.
*Or maybe I'm not giving you enough credit? Maybe
your response to the picture is sophisticated, but you just don't think that other people are s-m-r-t enough to handle the difficult issue of context?
PC03.29.08 - 4:18 pm
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dolamyte,
I really don't understand why you would question the legitimacy of the statements made by the vets of Veterans Against War. How are your words any truer than theirs? You made the statement, "Third your reference to the Winter Soldiers is most likely out of context. This story took place from a reservist and not an active duty member, and from the Army." OK, then read what you fellow exMarines have to say about Iraq,
United States Marine Corps (USMC) on IVAW. And yes you were never told to run over children in Iraq, but neither was Jason Moon. You can listen to his testimony
here. Listen to nuances of how the orders were delivered to him. If you have any questions regarding abuse against the civilian population witnessed by these men, just email them. I can only relay what I've read and trusted to be true. I don't question that there is sensitivity training provided to you and all the rest of the soldiers. I think though that alot of that sensitivity training goes out the window when learn they hate you and all the occupying force. It goes out the window when they try to kill you. It goes out the window when you can't tell the friend from foe, so all is foe.
You said, "But lastly SHAME ON YOU. I did not bash, point out anyone, or even make any references to anything but that picture." NEWSFLASH: When you make a comment on a forum, you invite other people's comments in the forum for a response. When you post in part, "Ironically enough I'm sitting here at work all night and I'm watching my unit leave for Iraq as we speak. It's a very proud and sad moment right now with all the families saying good bye, but in the end we're more of a peace keeping force than combatant if you ask me." Guess what? You're going to get a response! You want to view it as a bashing? Fine, no problem there, but you were NOT making a reference to the picture. If there was a reference, it's very poor reference at best. When you proclaim that the US is a peace keeping force, you bet you'll get a response from me and probably a few others on here. And I'm still confused as to what you are proud of. Would you care to explain?
You said, "You firing back at me the way you did was very hurtful, slightly immature and achieved nothing but project your anger onto me, but in the end I'm glad that you can do that, it's why I'm here, to try and give back a little something to a nation that gives us our freedoms." Dude will you quit already? You are not protecting my freedoms and my freedom has not been in danger for entire existence. The last time our freedoms were in any danger was during WWII. I HATE when this reference of "protecting our freedom" comes up. Last time I checked, this war is making us more susceptible to our freedom being taken away! This war has shown the nations foes that even after bombing this country from 1991 to the present, having the UN behind the US in imposing an embargo and economic sanctions and with our on going follies, it shows that we are NOT capable of defeating our enemies! And get this straight, I don't hate you, I hate what you stand for and what you do! You can try to justify that you are just following orders or you're just a cog in the wheel, but it doesn't make you any less guilty than Rumsfeld. You made your decision to be in the military on your own free will as you like to assert you have one. There was no draft for this war. If were drafted, then yes I will feel pity on you.
You said, "I want to see their new government established, active, and able to succeed without us. They have their own Military, Police, Schools, and Hospitals thanks to the efforts we lay down out there." They had these things BEFORE the war started! Yeah Sadam was a bad dictator, but he was far far from the worst in the world. He just was unfortunate to be sitting on the second largest oil reserve in the world!
You want to see Iraq succeed, but it will not be with their own free will, but the will of the US. The US is backing a pro-American government that is not legitimized by the Iraqi population. I expect war and conflict for years to come. But that is just how the US would want it. The US survives and thrives in this world on conflict between the nations. They are the biggest producers of weapons and have the largest army and weapons cash of all other nations combined! We are nation that spends over 50 cents of every tax dollar on defense.
dolamyte, you never answered my question, "do you feel we are doing more harm than good in Iraq?" All you answered was something like some soldiers comeback with a little more humanitarian service stories in them. Guess what dolamyte? I am pretty fortunate in having a little more compassion for my fellow human beings too and it cost me practically nothing! I do believe you when you say that most (90% I believe you said) never leave from behind the wire. I read a research article that for every one soldier there, there's about 5 people behind them for support. So yeah, I can see some coming back with a "Mission Accomplish" smile on their faces.
I wish I would have posted my response during the week. On the weekend I don't follow this board alot. I felt like I missed out in giving a more in depth response. I know there's alot I want to add and haven't. I really think our troops are pretty much given a green light to kill on their own discretion and are seldom if ever held accountable for their actions. The military plays the judge, jury and executioner when things to come to light. Even then, the soldiers accused are never accused and thrown in prison. The latest case was Lance Cpl. Stephen B. Tatum decision which happened a couple of days ago,
click here
I also wanted to make the reference that
Emergency which provides emergency medical treatment to civilian victims of war, has estimated that 90% of the casualties of war are civilians. You care to refute that dolamyte?
Finally, Howard Zinn, one of the most important historian in the United States was asked once, 'at one time president Bush said “History will judge me on Iraq.” What do you think this judgment will be?' Howard Zinn replied, “It will be that Bush’s war on Iraq was as disastrous for Iraqi’s as Americans and that the Bush administration extended the United States’ empire to its limits, to the point of making it collapse.”
User103.29.08 - 8:40 pm
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@User1
You and I are going to go around in circles, much like we have been for nearly a week now about this topic. I don't want to argue this issue. It's just like arguing about religion, no one wins, everyone has their views and ideas, and thats totally awesome, but no one wins. I said earlier that I didn't want to continue this online and that I was more than happy to do so at the LACM ride in person. I was there, and even wore a kilt to make my self more evident, vspangle and yo delicious picked me out from about 50 yards away and two lanes over at night, yet you did not come and find me. My picture is on here and I mentioned several times on here what I was going to wear and ride on. The next ride I hope that I can meet you, you seem like a very passionate person, as am I and I think that we can have many great conversations about all kinds of topics, maybe even some we see eye to eye on! I hope that you can look past my profession which being a Marine is not one. I've spent over 18 months in training, less than one percent of the time was combat related. I'm an avionics technician, and went to school for electrical engineering and Air Traffic Control. Those are my professions and what I do every day of my life. If you come out my way or to the r2rrrr ride I would be happy to give you a tour of the base and answer any questions you have and that I can answer. Let me know!
Dolan
dolamyte03.30.08 - 1:48 pm
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dolamyte,
No it's not like religion. In religion there's just superstition. In war sadly there's reality. There's people dying and a great toll suffered by many people that are involved. So no, I don't see this as debating about religion at all.
What happened to the person that stated above the following?
* I'm a huge supporter of dissent and speaking up when you see something wrong, there fore a proponent of this event.
* I am happy to answer your questions, but I ask that yu please understand more than a time constraint, that I cannot just act and talk as I please.
* And if you ask more please ask away! I will do my best to answer them.
* I am a good source, I live it everyday and if you ahve any questions I am happy to answer them, and if I don't know I will try to find out.
Me -
So now you're not happy to answer my questions? As you can probaly tell, there's more than just you or I reading this thread. How are they to know what your responses are if this was to suddenly go private? You're available and free to happily answer the questions posed to you as long as it's in agreement with your beliefs is what you meant to say, yes?
And how is it that we're going around in circles? What are going around in circles about? You made statements, I asked for clarification, and now you would like to discuss this in private. How is that going around in circles? BTW, it may seem like it's been a week, but in reality, it's been two days.
Where did you say, "I said earlier that I didn't want to continue this online and that I was more than happy to do so at the LACM ride in person." I never saw this info. I was told you were on the LACM while we were on the LACM, but I was not in the mood to meet you at that time. CM is a time for fun, not a time to debate political views. I like the forums cause it's a semi permanet record. It's easy for others to join in on the discussion. It gives a chance for someone else to possibly learn something. And it gives a chance for someone develeop their thoughts and deliver it with accuracy. What's not to like about using the forum?
So what's it now dolamyte? You'll answer my questions at the Roy's to RRRR Poker Run? In private or with others around? You're finished with this thread?
User103.30.08 - 3:34 pm
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@ user1
When I mentioned that debating this is like debating religion I am not comparing what is being discussed only that the people talking about them will most likely have varying views. For instance, I was raised Jewish but I'm am now agnostic, living my life with the beliefs and values from multiple religions, I do not think any one is right. If I talk with some one who is born again, Muslim, Jewish, any religion you a choose, I am going to disagree with them on some points just like they will with me. I may never be able to present my views in such a manner that the other person(s) will agree with me, and thus the circle continues, much as it is with you and I. Also I never said that I would talk with you in private I said in person, LACM is a public forum, and a shit ton of fun, but since I can't make myself available all the time for you, it was a mutual meeting point and I made my self available, not to argue but hash things out, talk about them, and most likely just agree to disagree and move on. I have tried to answer your questions, but since this is online I am limited to what I cant type in a reasonable amount of space, hence why I said I would rather continue this in person, not private.
"You're available and free to happily answer the questions posed to you as long as it's in agreement with your beliefs is what you meant to say, yes?"
This is the second time that you have made a small and easily understood idea and turned into something completely different. I am referring to the "support the troops" where you said something along the line of, hey lets go kill that kid, yea do it! Thats absolutely disgusting, and you know better. My not being able to say anything I please is due mainly to that fact that if I speak out against the president, make slanderous statements about my commanding officers or show any kind of defiance to orders given to me I will be punished with such things as a loss of rank and pay, and even discharge. If that discharge is dishonorable then I can no longer own property, no business will hire me, and the list continues. I also don't really include my beliefs in my statements, I prefer facts, but this isn't set in stone. I did mention earlier that it is illegal for me to speak out against this war and the government. I apologize if I did not express that I was going to be on the LACM ride, I had in other posts and I'm sorry if I had gotten those confused with this one. But also you did not ask me either. I can understand not being in the mood, but I was in a good mood and that does not mean it has to turn sour, I think it could have been done with civility, and also we could have just introduced our selves to one another, talked about things other than politics (preferred) such as, since this was my first ride with you guys you could have told me about past rides, shared personal interests, or just BS'd. I like having friends, especially new ones in my life, and I think that you could be a good one, challenge my views on somethings since that is when I learn the most. Of course it has to be mutual, I understand this. I merely suggested that you come to the r2rrrr ride, the base is on the way and I could give you and other people, some of whom have already asked for one, a small tour, let you look into our lives as they are being lived, you might be surprised at just how normal and every day it is. But it's more of just to give you an opportunity. I would always rather a public discussion be sought out rather than private, you get more view points and ideas mixed in, and a better way to understand someone else's point even if you don't like it or agree with it. I understand your reasons for talking about this online, but I feel that if it were done in person I know I could articulate my views in a much better and more understandable fashion, maybe you could to. But I don't like gluing myself to the computer. Hopefully we can meet and have a great ride, even if it's not with he Ridazz and I'm in town, come up to Joshua Tree and we'll hit the park! The flowers are blooming and the butterflies are out! Hurry before the heat takes them away. I'm sorry if I don't answer you right away, I have to go back tonight but at the moment I have friends to see and places to ride! I'm not going to leave this thread if you don't want me to, and you can email me if you like as well. Let me know if you want me email!
dolamyte03.30.08 - 5:00 pm
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dolamyte,
I was planning to go to the Roy's to RRRR Poker Run long before this thread. I look forward to meeting you and hopefully we are able to talk and maybe you can provide some answers. I'll try one more time and keep it very simple. I'll ask just one question and keep this post very short. Yes the exchange of ideas ideally go two ways, but I feel that right now you aren't really trying to answer any of my questions. BTW, I would be more than happy to address your questions.
My one and only question is this, above at the beginning of this exchange, you stated in part, "Ironically enough I'm sitting here at work all night and I'm watching my unit leave for Iraq as we speak. It's a very proud and sad moment right now with all the families saying good bye, but in the end we're more of a peace keepnig force than combatant if you ask me." My question is, what are you proud of? That's it, just that one question. Can you answer that?
In regards to your invitation, I thank you very much for extending the invitation, but I'll probably decline it. I grew up a military brat up until I was 18. We lived near 6 different bases around the world. I have a pretty good idea what the base is like. Thanks for the offer though.
User103.30.08 - 8:38 pm
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Mr. PC,
I fully agree that art is collaboration between viewer and image-maker. That meaning is not static that it can shift greatly depending on viewer, place, moment, and context. Still while there is no dictionary for images and pictures to offer denotative explanations for how to read an image, Images are still able to be used in conjunction together to construct meaning and communicate ideas that are sometimes fairly didactic and at other times much more fluid.
One viewer could, based on their language, culture, and experience, and beliefs come up with very different impressions of a picture and it’s meaning than another. At the same time it is pretty remarkable, that while we have no decisive dictionary to turn to while looking at images a great many people will have many overlapping impressions of picture that often coincide the range of meaning intended by the author.
It is true that in the case of your fictional viewer she may look at that image and spend more time thinking about the victim hood of the soldier. However, there isn’t much in the image that would necessarily point a viewer to conclude that it was ever the intention of the author to provoke such a thought. On the contrary we see several things in the image to conclude that the soldier in the picture is in a position of control and power, that his is willing and able to commit brutal force to assert control.
We can fantasize infinitely about all the misinterpretations (in relationship to the author’s intent) and tangential associations that might occur from looking at the image. But that doesn’t change the fact that their some pretty clear intent and meaning expressed in this image.
Clearly the author is expressing what is an aspect of something that has happened and will continue to happen as a by-product of our occupation in Iraq. Or for that matter the military occupation of any country a by colonial power.
The concerns I expressed about the image were mainly how it functions in relationship to the event being advertised and presented as it is outside of any other context other than its relationship to the event. Quoting myself:
The problem I have with an image like that as a representation of this event and being presented without any other context is: that even if it is based on an actual image, as a graphic it becomes a generic representation of an American solder committing an abuse or atrocity. It is generalized stereotypes weather based on somebody's race, gender, religion, or political association, that makes it much easier to direct hatred at anonymous individuals instead of focusing on the system of control we all belong to.
That does not mean that this is not a powerful image or that it doesn’t not evoke a certain justified anger about one of the many disastrous conditions of this war,or that the image doesn’t have certain truths to tell.
But as representation of a grass-roots event that will include a large cross-section of artists and activists of different backgrounds, with different political views and, different philosophies, all coming together using different forms of resistance to try and help mobilize the social and political will to end this war. I think in some ways, as I stated earlier, that it is counter productive.
Some of those people will be veterans. Some will be individuals who think that no nation should have a standing army and anybody who signs up is a foolish tool that enables the operation of the war machine. Many will be somewhere in between. Regardless, I don’t think that this necessarily the best image to represent and attract those broad interests.
This does not mean, as you have asserted, that I am unwilling to confront the “reality” of this war. On the contrary I go out of my way to hear and see different media, preferably un-embedded accounts of what is currently going on over there. It’s why I listened to the live broadcast of the winter soldier conference, watched video excerpts of testimony on Democracy Now! and sought out other long form videos of the event on their website. It’s why I linked he site earlier in this thread.
**On a personal note: I think it is really silly for you make assumptions about smart I might think people are about their ability to read the image and take it in context. But then again, much of what you have been ranting about has been based on your assumptions and projections as to my thoughts and motivations. It’s a little frustrating that you insist on being so condescending and presumptuous. To be honest it gets in the way of appreciating your often thoughtful and articulate commentary when it is so watered down with dismissive attacks, name calling, and baseless assumptions about the viewpoints of others who perceive this differently than you.... I understand however that it may be a posture you are comfortable with using in this forum (as is often filled with knuckleheadz pissing on each other for giggles) even if you don't present yourself that way when we interact in the real world.
trickmilla03.31.08 - 12:14 am
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@ user1
Wow that fucking sucks, I just wrote you a response and answered your questions but there were some problems, I will re write it tomorrow!
dolamyte03.31.08 - 12:46 am
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OK, milla, how's this: instead of giving you another ten thousand words on why I'm right and you're wrong and everybody should think like me (they should, BTW...they really should), I'm going to let
you pick an image for an anti-war wheatpaste that will convey the sheer massiveness of the grief and suffering that the Iraq war has wrought, without alienating or frightening anybody
or seeming to inculpate any participant in the war with a rank lower than general. Good luck to you, my man, because I can't find one.
(No cutesy abstract MFA stuff like you posted earlier, either: nobody outside of the art scene is swayed by that stuff. If they were, Robbie Conal would be eating cockroaches at Gitmo right now.)
I'll even get you started with a link to a
giant database of graphic photos of the death and mayhem in Iraq. Despite the sensational-sounding name of the site, it has photos that show the suffering from all perspectives, and most if not all of the pictures are credited to news agencies and are captioned with the relevant names, places, and dates. Now all you have to do is find one that won't piss off the veterans, scare off the soccer moms, gross out the squeamish, or put the rest of us to sleep. Fair enough?
PC03.31.08 - 3:34 am
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I'm proud that we call our concentration camps "detainment camps"
I'm proud that US american soldiers dont see the parallels between nazi germany and these "detainment camps" because if they did, well, we wouldnt be killing and torturing human beings and making them disappear. I'm very proud that our soldiers are paid volunteers. you cant ask people to torture and kill human beings for free you know. it's takes college money and loan guarantees to make people do what they do. god forbid they think for themselves and decide that killing human beings is wrong.
Satan on a Tricycle03.31.08 - 7:08 am
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^^^
only a satin would say that killing human beings is not wrong.
indigis03.31.08 - 7:52 am
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Maybe its time for the world to shame these unequipped heathens in iraq into submission.
Satan on a Tricycle03.31.08 - 8:23 am
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Me seeing a world with one less rabbit....................
User103.31.08 - 11:54 am
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Satan on a Tricycle,
I'm sure those are "just a few bad apples", or maybe they're reservists as dolamyte would claim. It certainly can't be Marines, since they've been trained! If we had all Marines there, these types of things wouldn't happen in this war, right?
User103.31.08 - 12:12 pm
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Oh my dearest PC,
Did I ever say that I was concerned with:
"piss[ing] off the veterans, scar[ing] off the soccer moms or gross[ing] out the squeamish"?
I did not my friend. These are your projections and assumptions.
****
Again, my main point was that the image is lacking in its function as an advertisement and as a solitary, out-of-context image, it distracts from focusing on the real purveyors of this war: The people who made it happen, the people who make the rules, the system that we belong to and participate in. Neither does the image really highlight the real tragedy and horror of this war.
Do you really think the image is that fucking great?
We have seen gang rapes, mutilations, murders, accidental killings, accidental bombings, mass refugees, people dying from lack of services and infrastructure, torture, torture to death, kidnapping, and journalists killed and imprisoned. That's just by our forces.
The real tragedy that most people do not want to come to terms with is that we took a relatively stable, educated, and peaceful society and bombed it into the third world. Where millions have had to flea as refugees from ethnic cleansing and terrorism and put their kids to work shining shoes.
We created the very fucking society we are most afraid of.
That is of course not to mention the US soldiers who have died and the fact that for every soldier that dies in iraq 2 or 3 come home to kill themselves. For ever one that kills themselves there is probably another 3 or 4 that come home maimed or wounded.
So yes ... I think there is potentially much better subject matter for a poster to express the horrors/ victims/ perpetrators of this war. I also think there are much better ways to advertise the show in the first place.
From what I can now tell the image above is one of many made by individuals to advertise teh event in a sort of wheat-paste/ graffiti street art effort including lots of different images and artists and not at all a singular image to represent the show.
I'm glad this masturbatory argument is helping to keep the LA vs WAR event on top of the threads. Maybe I'll remember to go.
Unfortunately it will be difficult to generate as much controversy about the
Thai Town Curry Fest..... Wait!!!!! Is that a habanero pepper in stead of a Thai Dragon on the poster? OH SHIT HERE WE GO AGAIN!
trickmilla03.31.08 - 12:35 pm
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That poster image i pretty fucking forgiving if you think about what these soldiers are doing. in grade school anyone who followed my orders to sin was told by the teacher "if satan told you to jump off a bridge would you do it?!" I love it when people follow orders and kill people.
Satan on a Tricycle03.31.08 - 12:43 pm
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So, we can all everyone agree:
Banksy makes really good curry.
===END OF THREAD===
SKIDMARCUS03.31.08 - 12:47 pm
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Is that really Banski? He is usually much more clever than that. I thought it was some biter. Really.
====== END OF THREAD =======
(except nobody like being told "end of thread")
trickmilla03.31.08 - 1:19 pm
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Damn it, I'm still waiting and hoping dolamyte will answer at least ONE of my questions. I've got alot invested in getting one freaking question answered.
User103.31.08 - 1:48 pm
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there are times when I'm all for individual accountability. which puts me in the odd position of being aligned with conservatives on accountability issues. as it is these soldiers need to be held legally account-able for their actions to the point of basically compelling them to think for themselves and dis-obey orders if they have to in order to end the illegal occupation of Iraq. simply by putting down their arms and refusing to kill any longer they can stop the state sponsorred terrorism. saying that they cant disobey orders is not a legitimate let alone moral excuse in my mind. The occupation and invasion of both Afghanistan and Iraq is illegal according to the Geneva convention and that's good enough reason in itself to disobey orders. in fact unless there is some invading force hitting our soil, there is no reason to take up arms against whole nations of other human beings. the conservatives are right, we are seeing anew type of "enemy" but that should take down our aggression and bring more court trials and using treaties to settle beef rather than all out occupation.
Imagine the rallying cry of the world for the United States had the leadership simply absorbed the al queda attack on 9/11 and proceeded to capture and prosecute on trial with evidence in transparency all who were suspected of masterminding THAT single attack. The world would have been shocked and awed in the most positive way. we would have won the confidence of the world through peace-able JUSTICE. instead we're running around like cowboys with the military and a largely unpublicised para-military mercenary force commiting WAR CRIMES on our behalf. Thanks a lot money interests and MIC. you guys can all eat my shit.
Roadblock03.31.08 - 3:03 pm
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RB,
I agree on the personal responsibility thing. But like most of us, most soldiers go on day to day just trying to do what they think they need to do to survive and take care of their families.
I have deep respect for soldiers that risk family, freedom, financial stability, and their futures on doing what is right and resisting this war.
However for me to
expect that of the troops means that I myself would have to have the courage to do the same level of risk as a civilian.
ie:
Stop Paying Taxes
Commit Civil Disobedience
Organize and Participate in Mass Strikes
Engage in tactical disruptions.
and so on and until this occupation has ended.
If everybody who is opposed to this war (over 60%!) simply refused to contribute to the system, disrupted the system, and refused to back down, this war would not last 6 months.
I've known this war was illegal, immoral, and wrong since day -100 so in theory I should have been doing all of the above every day for the last 5 years.
While we as Americans enjoy the cushy lifestyle provided by our warring colonizing government. Very few of us actually have the huevos to put our lives on the line to stop this war.
.
Call me a coward, but I'm not there yet. Unfortunately. I don't think I know anybody else who is either. I'd expect that of troops, if I could expect it of myself.
trickmilla03.31.08 - 5:02 pm
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Mr. Miller,
We're on to you, buddy.
FBI03.31.08 - 5:09 pm
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impersonating an FBI agent is a serious crime
spiraldemon03.31.08 - 5:16 pm
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Way back towards the beginning of this thread there's a link to the Wiki entry on Howard Zinn. This quote kinda stood out for me: "He [Zinn] asserts that the U.S. will end its war with, and occupation of, Iraq when resistance within the military increases, in the same way resistance within the military contributed to ending the U.S. war in Vietnam."
The main difference that I can see is this time around we don't have a draft. I'm quite sure that this is all part of the grand design.
On a personal note, I spent a good part of my teenage years worrying about what I would do if I was conscripted. I was lucky enough to miss the draft.
mr rollers03.31.08 - 5:33 pm
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trickmills those are excellent points and in a democracy we should be held accountable for this because the people voted for these scums to be in office. I bet it would light a fire under many people's asses if we were subject to the ICC and real liability for damage assesments and deaths. hard otherwise to accomplish when we're not being shown the true carnage of the conflicts this country engages in... the only ones who see it are the troops on the ground. the media should be held account-able as well for not properly revealing the truth....ahhh fuck it we're done
Roadblock03.31.08 - 6:46 pm
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@user1
Sorry about the delay, this is my sixth try so hopefully it wont boot me off when I click the post reply button.
I'm not trying to dodge the question, and if it seems like that then I apologize. I just ry to remember what qeustions you ask and post accordingly. Why do I feel proud? Honestly it shouldn't matter, my feelings are just that, mine, and not available for critique, critisism, questioning or anything other than your knowing thats how I feel, even if you feel differently. But I will try to elaborate and answer your question. When a unit leaves there are a who gauntlet of emotions. Everything from happiness, sadness, pride, anxiety, and anything else that is within the spectrum of human emotions. As for me since I was not directly involved in this deployment, I was more of a by stander. I was more or less leeching, or picking up on the atmosphere, the aura of the night. I really didn't have too many original feeling of my own, other than it was sad to say good bye to friends. But if they are happy or proud of what they are doing then I have proud for them, and happy for them. A lot of us have tons of pride in what we do, and many more feel that their decision to join the Marines was an honorable one. Going into theater for many is the culmination of what it means to be a Marines. We spend most of out lives training and preparing for everything from physical training, becoming better at our jobs, building on leadership traits and principals, and preparing to go to the theater. This type of training is our annual rife qualification, gas camber quals, moving in a convoy ect. Our day to day can be very mundane and wears down on you. But everyone that I know who left wanted to go. There were a few people that weren't thrilled about it becuase this was their third tour, but would rather go than not. What makes these guys proud to go? I can't say wiht any certainty, and their answer will definilty vary from one to another. Some what the expirience, to be able to say they can perform under those conditions. Others want to prove to them selves or to others they have what it takes. Some feel ashamed that they haven't deployed yet, and are embarassed to admit to someone that they haven't gone yet. As if it were common place that everyone has already and are almost expected to. Some go for the money, tax free reenlistment bonus's. Some feel it's their way to give back to this counrty, what ever it may ask of us. By that I mean that if you vote or are a participating citizen then this is your war too. If you didn't vote or choose not to particiapate, then take a hike. Looking to change things through non action is retarded. But if you did vote and your guy didn't make it into office, then speak up, write letters, start groups and movements. But to question my feelings is kind of silly, especially since I haven't heard of anything that you've done for this war, be it for or agaist it. Sitting their complaining about it isn't being active, and doing so to me certainly isn't going to accomplish anything. I am here to help, and if there is anything I can do, please let me know. Instead of writing on here about how bad things are, I think it would be awesome to hear stories of people acting as humanitarians. Am I the only one who has donated time, money, clothes, and school supplies for the Iraqis?
dolamyte04.1.08 - 6:02 pm
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MR vs WAR
t-shirts?
alec04.3.08 - 11:30 am
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That drawing is great alec... is it yours?
The sticker party sounds fun.
trickmilla04.3.08 - 6:10 pm
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kinda, i put the bird and bike together.
alec04.3.08 - 6:34 pm
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people are just people
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/badvoodoo/
deesimple04.5.08 - 2:04 am
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^^^^^^^^^ SO GOOD.
Thinking of heading to this Thursday night, which is also the Downtown artwalk. Thinking of riding around, then hitting some select places at the artwalk (did I see on another thread that Roadblock has a piece up at Crewest?), then the Firehouse.
Ms. Stephanie04.8.08 - 3:18 pm
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Hey y' all,
My hot date turned into a supernova and burned out. So I have a pass available to the Robert Sheer thing tonight. The info is the link above ^^^
Doors open at 7pm. If you want to go, give me a call. This thing will be packed and it's gona be good.
Allan five 6 two six 7 three O six 43
User106.12.08 - 5:15 pm
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Ridazz Roulette!
We should all ride to this:
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