hasids vs hipsters
Thread started by
ruinedbyidiots at 09.13.08 - 11:45 pm
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09122008/news/regionalnews/hasid_lust_cause_128750.htm
removing bike lanes because of scantily clad women?
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Two options.
1. Get the girls to cover up.
2. Remove the guys' eyes.
Removing bike lanes is not an option.
imachynna09.13.08 - 11:52 pm
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It's time for critical tits to roll through Williamsburg.
Cranktankerous09.14.08 - 7:23 am
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"Hasids are forbidden from looking at members of the opposite sex who aren't fully dressed, said local activist Isaac Abraham. "
Fuck you, Mr. Abraham. Public roads - tough shit. Call me when they're riding through the temple and then maybe I'll begin to understand your side of things.
turrican09.14.08 - 10:40 am
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how do they know they arent fully dressed if they cant look at them!
ruinedbyidiots09.14.08 - 10:53 am
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How about scantily dressed pedestrians?
Remove the sidewalks.
If I remember correctly though they have managed to have "men only" & "women only" buses. Or is that just in Israel?
Hasid or Taliban. Two sides of the same coin. Religious freaks.
marino09.14.08 - 11:09 am
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Build a wall so that you can only see the head of the bicyclists riding by.
skd09.14.08 - 11:55 am
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@marino:
"Hasid or Taliban. Two sides of the same coin. Religious freaks"
I'm not even going to dignify this absurd and unbelievably ignorant comment with a full argument to explain just how ignorant and anti-semitic it is. Get stuffed, Marino. I'd have thought you were capable of more reasoned thought than that. You either know nothing about chisidism or you know nothing about the Taliban, but in either case, you probably ought to keep your mouth shut on this one.
ideasculptor09.14.08 - 5:02 pm
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I'm officially offended by the fact that people can't accept that women are free to dress as they wish in NEW YORK CITY in TWO THOUSAND AND EIGHT.
Good grief.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09122008/news/regionalnews/hasid_lust_cause_128750.htm
"Hasids are forbidden from looking at members of the opposite sex who aren't fully dressed, said local activist Isaac Abraham."
Thinking that this attitude is ridiculous and obsolete does not make anyone anti-semitic, any more than finding snake handling pentecostals absurd makes one anti-christian.
JB09.14.08 - 5:20 pm
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Marino's smell might be offensive to some, more-so than his comment about Hasidic jews in relation to taliban muslims. The only thing offensive I find about Marino's comment, is only implied with assumptions, it's that he doesn't like religious freaks. Freaks, being a completely subjective term, you can't argue with him. He considers them both freaks, and I can see where he's coming from. For him calling them religious, you can't argue with that either - because clearly they are both religion based organizations. Therefore you can't argue with Marino's belief that they are both Religious Freaks.
What I DO find offense is that, being a Grand Reverend of the Benevolent (dis)Order of Stray Couches, Marino might lump me in with religious freaks therefore he might be critical of my 'faith' and lump me in as a third side of his religious freak coin.
It's this coin that I need to know more about before I can pass further judgement on Marino.
the reverend dak09.14.08 - 5:33 pm
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Can I just remind people here that the Taliban stone women to death for wearing the wrong clothes or for disobeying their husband. Hasids aren't even in the same league. A fundamentalist muslim husband can execute his own wife if she tries to live him or abandon islam. To compare hasids to the taliban is, at best, to expose yourself as
unbelievably ignorant.
Hasids may subscribe to a different moral code than the communities in america in which they live, but they also attempt to enforce that moral code within their own community within the legal structure of the surrounding society. I think they are wrong in this instance, and suspect that they will lose the battle, but until you've got hasids tackling women off their bicycles in the street and beating them to death, you aren't going to convince me there is even the lsightest similarity between them and the Taliban.
ideasculptor09.14.08 - 7:56 pm
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Well I dunno if Pograms count as stoning but here is the lead story on Haaretz today.
Yitzhar settlers' West Bank rampage caught on camera
Now technically these probably aren't Hasids but traditional Orthodox, but since they believe in almost the same thing with a few differences I think the comparison could stand. At the same time I don't think Marino's comparison is exactly fair, but their are quite a few similarities. If the population and financial situations were equal and Radical Jews and Christians took the Old testament as seriously as the Muslims I would expect their to be quite a few more stonings. I myself dislike all faith based endeavors, especially religion, and most especially Luddite religions.
Most religions are illogical, some just go the extra mile.
franz09.14.08 - 8:40 pm
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MARINO I AM OFFENDED! SAY YOUR SORRY AND MOUTH KISS ME RITE AWAY.
Would you like any Dawkins DVDs?
Graham09.14.08 - 8:42 pm
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Nowhere did Marino say that Hasids were terrorists, or that the Taliban twirl their sideburns. He said they are both Religious Freaks. You can't argue with the words he wrote. You can only read between the lines and guess at what he's implying. What some of you are pointing out are some of the fundamental differences between Orthodox Jews and Muslim extremists, not necessarily Hasidic Jews or the Taliban of Afghanistan. Those assumptions are unfair, and full of judgment.
the reverend dak09.14.08 - 9:15 pm
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how about this. any puritanical oppressiveness of any degree is retarded. there are degrees of it where you probably want to oppose the Taliban more than this, but it doesn't make this any less stupid. people should mind their own business in life and quit making exceptions for religious observation.
the_futurist09.14.08 - 9:28 pm
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@ Dak
How do we know they are on the same coin at all for that matter how can we prove they aren't on the exact same side. What we first need to figure out is, how many coins are there? We'll than need to create a method to separate the religions, sects, congregations, and what being on the opposite side of a coin actually implies (I think there are a few euphemisms using the coin terminology that contradict each other).
I nominate PC to start working on this immediately.
franz09.14.08 - 9:33 pm
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all I know is that stoning is not exclusive to the Taliban.... I first heard about stoning a long time ago having read about it in the bible when I was in religious school. I'm not religious anymore. Glad I grew out of that.
Roadblock09.14.08 - 9:41 pm
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The Taliban are one case study (out of many) in why fundamentalist zealots should never control the government. Theocracies suck.
But even on a more local scale, when the members of a particular religious group try to regulate the activities of those who don't share their beliefs, I say that said religious people can go sit on a pointy stick. That is, unless sitting on pointy sticks runs counter to their religious beliefs, in which case I say that they can just go fuck themselves. (never let it be said that I'm culturally insensitive)
nathansnider09.14.08 - 9:46 pm
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I'm on it, Franzie. I think that somebody ought to sculpt his ideas a little more carefully if he's going to insist that others be precise. There is a similarity between the attitudes toward women displayed by the Hasidic persons in the article and those of the Taliban, and it's more than slight, although to call them morally equivalent would be super simplistic.
PC09.14.08 - 9:52 pm
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Let me also say that unlike Dak, I stand ready, and even eager, to pass judgment on Marino. I hereby sentence him to be stoned to death with canisters of Right Guard.
PC09.14.08 - 9:56 pm
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PC, there are some superficial similarities, but I grew up spending my summers at an ultra-orthodox summer camp (technically, lubavitcher instead of hasid, but most folks couldn't spot the difference), and I can promise you that things are VERY different. Jewish men are very respectful of their women. Different groups believe in a different amount of propriety that should be exhibited between women and men they aren't related to (and vice versa), but there is none of the violent oppression of women that is a trademark of the taliban. None.
And if you think hasids are just another form of orthodox judaism, you are sorely mistaken. Perhaps one of the biggest differences it that hasids are traditionally not zionists and, as such, would never be in altercations with palestinians. They believe that no one other than the messiah can restore a jewish state and that zionists are attempting work that rightfully belongs to god. There are hasids that live in Israel, and they've become less resistant to zionism over the years, but you should never confuse hasids with the devout zionists in the occupied territories (many of whom aren't religious at all)
ideasculptor09.14.08 - 10:29 pm
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Superficial? Au contraire. The attitudes are profoundly similar. Hardline Islamists also justify their repressive rules on the grounds that they promote "respect" for women. The chief differences are in to what extent each group is willing to use the coercive power of the state, with its implied threat of violence, to enforce their ideas of "propriety"; and in how far they will go to compromise with their secular neighbors on those ideas. And I have no idea how or why the Palestinian question got into the act here, so no comment.
PC09.14.08 - 10:56 pm
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I introduced zionists and the occupied territories because Franz mistakenly compared hasids with orthodox zionist settlers in the west bank.
PC, you come off as someone who has clearly never spent time inside the household of a hasidic jewish family. I've not only spent much time in such households, but I also grew up with a fair few muslim friends (though none you'd label as fundamentalist). And I was raised in an Orthodox jewish household. Hasidic jewish women
voluntarily take on a particular gender role, but bears some superficial resemblance to traditional muslim gender roles, but aside from hiding their hair from unrelated males and a modesty of dress that seems excessive by modern standards, there is little similarity there. The woman in a jewish couple has a very strong role suffers nowhere near the subservience of woman subjected to a fundamentalist husband. Violence against women is flat out prohibited in hasidic judaism, but encouraged in fundamentalist islam.
from wikipedia:
As with all Haredi women, the standard is long, conservative skirts, and sleeves past the elbow. Otherwise, female Hasidic fashion remains on the conservative side of secular women's fashion. Most Hasidic women do not wear red clothing.
In common with all Haredim, Hasidic men will not touch or even shake hands with anyone of the opposite sex other than their wife, mother, sister, or daughter; the converse applies for women.
In keeping with Jewish law married Hasidic women cover their hair. In many Hasidic groups the women wear sheitels (wigs) for this purpose. In some of these groups the women might also wear a tichel (scarf) or hat on top of the sheitel either on a regular basis or when attending services or other religious events. Other groups consider sheitels too natural looking, so they simply put their hair into kerchiefs (called tichels—a tichel often covers a shpitzel). In some groups, such as Satmar, married women shave their heads and wear head kerchiefs.
All allow uncovered hair before marriage.
more
Hasidic men and women, as customary in Haredi Judaism, usually meet through matchmakers in a process called a shidduch, but marriages involve the mutual consent of the couple and of the parents. Expectations exist that a bride and groom should be about the same age. Marriage age ranges from 17-25, with 18-21 considered the norm. No custom encourages an older man marrying a young woman.
An old myth asserts that Hasidic couples have intercourse through a sheet with holes in it. This is not true. Many scholars have posited that this myth originated in the speculation of outsiders upon seeing the poncho-like tallit katan drying on a clothes line. Since the tallit katan resembles a small square sheet with a hole in it (for the wearer's head to go through) and Hasidim were known for extreme modesty, a new myth was born.
A long skirt and sleeves is no more excessively modest than in many christian communities. Covering the hair is hardly the equivalent of wearing a burqa. Women make many, if not most of the household decisions and their opinions are valued by their mate and given full consideration when making decisions that effect the whole family. The treatment of women in a hasidic family is just nothing even remotely like how women are treated by a Taliban husband. A taliban man can rape his wife with impunity, can kill his wife with impunity, and controls everything she does. He can prevent her from ever leaving the house or interacting with any other people. None of these things are true of a hasidic jewish married woman. So far as I am aware, there isn't even a prohibition on divorce amongst hasids, though the divorce rate is low, according to a google search.
There is a dress code. Marriages tend to be arranged (but are also voluntary). Non-related men and women are kept separate. These are utterly superficial resemblances to fundamentalist islam.
Don't confuse hasids with fundamentalist jews. They really aren't. They were actually kind of out there in their beliefs when the hasidism was founded, but they have stuck by their ways as society has evolved around them.
ideasculptor09.14.08 - 11:22 pm
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@PC
There's a BIG difference between an extremist group willing to kill thousands of people to enforce their will and an extremist group that calmly goes through legal channels to ask a DEMOCRATIC society to respect their beliefs. Yes, the Hasidim are asking for somethign that seems completely out-of-date and ridiculous to us, but if they're request is denied, they'll go back to petitioning, not blowing up national landmarks. oh, and Palestinians came into the question when franz posted a video of settlers in the West Bank doing... I don't know what to/with Palestinians. And if these people are comparable because they're all Jewish... then I guess I'm just some crazy terrorist zealot. I suppose I should get off my bicycle and get back in the kitchen so that I can conform to your beliefs?
danya09.14.08 - 11:23 pm
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amazing, there's at least one other person on here who doesn't equate devout religious belief with fundamentalist violence against those considered to be 'inferior.'
Believe it or not, everyone who has moral values that are different from some kind of libertine, anything-goes morality is not necessarily the incarnation of evil. Gender roles aren't inherently evil unless someone is forced into a role they reject. Feminism isn't about every woman working full time. It is about having the choice to work full time or not, and to have her work, whether at home or elsewhere, valued equally to the work of a man. Many women choose to stay home with their families. Many women choose to dress modestly. If they don't happen to also be devout jews who go out of their way to look different from those around them as a matter of tradition, you wouldn't think twice about it.
Are the pennsylvania dutch and other amish the equivalent of the Taliban? Are peasant villages throughout southeast asia and eastern europe the equivalent to the Taliban? Are the chinese equivalent to the taliban? Traditional chinese culture truly is nearly as oppressive to women as fundamentalist islam, yet I wonder if anyone on this thread would compare china to the taliban without having it pointed out.
ideasculptor09.14.08 - 11:36 pm
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Here is a video news report of the issue in Brooklyn.
Video
Just this past Friday night, Shabbat, the Prom Ride rode through a predominately Hasidic neighborhood down La Brea past Melrose.
A bunch of Hasidic guys, 18-25, walking on the sidewalk waved and smiled as we rode by. The girls, and some guys, were wearing long dresses, but they were low-cut and somewhat revealing.
Is this just a New York thing, where conflict is part of the culture there?
There seems to be more tolerance here in LA on both sides.
skd09.15.08 - 12:13 am
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What the girls choose to wear is just that... their choice. IT's not an issue of LA vs. NY or any other city, it's more of an issue of how the individual interperets the laws given. Some of the Orthodox girls I know dress far less modestly than Conservative/Reform girls I know while still keeping the letter of the law. Also, just because they were wearing black hats doesn't mean those were Hassidim. Several more religious groups in Judaism have very similar clothing styles.
danya09.15.08 - 12:29 am
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First off let it be said I didn't equate the Taleban and the Hasids.
Moving on, I understand there are differences between the sects of Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, however small they seem to me. I was a Southern Baptist for for a time in my life, I had friends who were Methodists, Presbyterians etc. I can't tell you differences between most of the evangelical christian sects. Just as I'm sure you will find it difficult to tell me the differences between Hassidic groups.
Any "devout" Luddite religion basing itself off of the Old Testament is going to have oppressive values towards women. Danya since you didn't even read my post I won't take too much time replying, I was asked to demonstrate unnecessary religious violence, in this case they attacked people who had nothing to do with a stabbing that had taken place earlier in the day. You can find plenty of videos of Ultra-Orthodox stonings of innocent people. (The reason I chose this one was laziness, I had already read the article today)
All Abrahamic religions advocate the stoning of adulterers. If they don't do it anymore I would suggest it's more of a question of opportunity, where do these antiquated communities exist?
To all who know me it's quite apparent I love jews... as often as possible.
However this is a question of religious sects who hold our society back. I blame the Catholics for holding us back hundreds of years during the dark ages (specifically mathematics).
Archimedes Lost Book
I blame Orthodox Muslims for destroying the scientific and artistic cultures of the medieval Middle East, which before it's spread was leading the world.
I don't think the Haredim are holding us back, they don't have the numbers or influence. My desire however is to make sure no zealous religious fanatics are ever able to destroy culture from going forward. I think that is what this is about, on an obviously smaller scale, yet a pertinent one to us.
franz09.15.08 - 12:52 am
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Franz-
1. I did read your post, I didn't read the article you linked. I've seen enough like it already, so I didn't bother finding the exact details of the situation you linked. Props for linking an actual reliable news source, btw. Haaretz has better reporting than the LA Times, imo.
2. I never said you equated Hassidim with the Taliban. Marino did that. Sorry adressing the issue in the same post confused you.
3. One thing about Judaism- it changes. Judaism now strictly forbids stoning people to death, or any of the other fun & exciting biblical punishments (I recommend looking up the one about hot lava). Judaism has also developed a much more balanced attitude about gender, i.e. Of the ~10 Orthodox teachers (men) I had in school, only one had issues with woman in the workplace, etc. The funny thing is, he was the only one who wasn't raised Orthodox.
danya09.15.08 - 1:20 am
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There are many forms of Judaism, Christianity, Islam. I don't think you can say Judaism as a whole is able to change (which in my opinion is one of the reasons for the success of Jews as a whole). Not changing is one of the main tenets of Orthodox sects. That's why they don't want to see immodest women, don't read newspapers, and assault immodest women in Mea Shearim.
Haredi Jews - Via Wikipedia
Like other Orthodox Jews, consider their belief system and religious practices to extend in an unbroken chain back to Moses and the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai. As a result, they consider non-Haredi denominations to be unjustifiable deviations from authentic Judaism. Most Haredi Jews consider the term Ultra-Orthodox a pejorative label, although the term is used widely in secular academic and secular news sources.
As you can see, not only do they believe things should not change from 3,000 years ago they don't believe you, or anyone I know in fact, are Jew's.
Halakha and Sharia Law, I don't have a strong desire to read either one to compare and contrast. However the concept is exactly the same, it's just that one group of fanatics has the means to carry it out and the other doesn't.
franz09.15.08 - 1:37 am
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Don't tell me what my religion says. I went to a yeshiva for 3 years, and two of my best friends from that time are Haredi. An "unbroken chain" doesn't mean that nothing has changed. It means that the documents we have today are exactly the same as they were first written. Judaism today is the result of generations of studying and interpereting those documents, starting with the Torah. The first generation produced the Mishna, the next the Talmud, and so and so forth until today, when Rabbis around the world still continue debates about the interpretation of laws today. If Judaism were as stagnant as you say it is, we would've dissappeared when Jacob first took his 11 sons to Egypt.
Also, "unjustifiable deviations " does not mean they don't consider others Jews. Anyone born to a Jewish mother is considered a Jew, the question is whether the person is practicing the 'right' kind of Judaism.
Halacha is carried out every day. I do it, to some extent, and I know plenty of people who do it completely without ever bothering their goyish neighbors.
danya09.15.08 - 1:55 am
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I was incorrect, Ultra-Orthodox rabbis do change Halakha. I was under the impression they had kept Halaka from the time the first Temple was destroyed (which again isn't what I said, wikipedia confused me with the Unbroken chain bit). Of course that doesn't really make sense, I just assumed, incorrectly, that the just orthodox ignored most of crazy rules like we Catholics do. I meant to put a qualifier as to my lack of understanding, but I must have edited it out.
I also found out that Sharia was also once open to change, however it was closed in the 11th century which corresponds to the time Islamic scientific culture collapsed.
I also found out L Ron Hubbard believes Moses to have had a "Ray Gun".
The internet, is there any other resources that can waste my time so efficiently?
franz09.15.08 - 2:23 am
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danya wrote:
@PC
There's a BIG difference between an extremist group willing to kill thousands of people to enforce their will and an extremist group that calmly goes through legal channels to ask a DEMOCRATIC society to respect their beliefs.
I already said there was a difference. If you can't read well, at least read slowly.
PC09.15.08 - 2:44 am
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ideasculptor wrote:
Don't confuse hasids with fundamentalist jews. They really aren't.
I didn't say they were. I didn't say a thing about what their relationship is to other brands of Judaism, because it's utterly irrelevant to the question of how their views compare to those of other religions.
Believe it or not, everyone who has moral values that are different from some kind of libertine, anything-goes morality is not necessarily the incarnation of evil.
Nobody said that they were.
Gender roles aren't inherently evil unless someone is forced into a role they reject.
Nobody said that they were.
Feminism isn't about every woman working full time.
Nobody said that it was.
It is about having the choice to work full time or not, and to have her work, whether at home or elsewhere, valued equally to the work of a man. Many women choose to stay home with their families.
Nobody said or remotely implied that there was anything wrong with this choice. Least of all me: while I am admittedly a nonsubscriber to the world's religions, I can't rule out the possibility that my mother could come back from the dead and slice my nuts off for suggesting that she shouldn't have chosen to stay home and take care of me and my sister.
Many women choose to dress modestly.
Nobody said or remotely implied that there was anything wrong with this choice.
If they don't happen to also be devout jews who go out of their way to look different from those around them as a matter of tradition, you wouldn't think twice about it.
Doubtless I wouldn't, which is why I didn't say a word about it.
Are the pennsylvania dutch and other amish the equivalent of the Taliban?
Nobody said anything that could reasonably be taken to imply that they were.
Are peasant villages throughout southeast asia and eastern europe the equivalent to the Taliban? Are the chinese equivalent to the taliban?
Nobody said that anybody or anything was *equivalent* to the Taliban, which is worlds apart from saying that anybody or anything is *similar to* the Taliban.
Traditional chinese culture truly is nearly as oppressive to women as fundamentalist islam, yet I wonder if anyone on this thread would compare china to the taliban without having it pointed out.
If they did, I wonder whether you would notice, being so busy knocking the stuffing out of straw men. As a gesture of class solidarity with the ranch hands of America, I must ask that you stop it at once--they're running out of straw. Perhaps you could use the resulting downtime to give us another lesson on "reasoned thoughts" and why we should "keep [our] mouth[s] shut" if we are not able or willing to express them.
PC09.15.08 - 3:28 am
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Hasidic Jews are Religious Freaks
Taliban Muslims are Religious Freaks
Therefore Hasids and Taliban are Religious Freaks.
That's all that Marino said. Nothing about the stoning or oppression of women. Nothing about hate. Except, maybe, the general criticism of Religious beliefs, in general.
They're Freaks, that's all Marino wrote. Coming from Marino, it doesn't really amount to much. Him being a freak himself.
Polite Children will always remember that a church is the __________ of __________.
the reverend dak09.15.08 - 10:59 am
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The pulpits standing empty, the congregations left
Because to qualify for piety they had to pass a test
[Q:] How much "roughly" is your god worth to you?
[Q:] And if he said "lay down your life for me" could you give that too?
And will they never understand
That the future is in man
The priests, when told of starving kids, look on in mock dismay
While thinking of new ways by which to make religion pay
Money from mass misery? There's nothing wrong with that
The church holds out a bloodstained hand to pass around the hat
"By the pricking in my thumbs
Something wicked this way comes"
ruinedbyidiots09.15.08 - 11:05 am
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First of all I would like to apologize to all the freaks for using the word freaks in a derogatory way.
What I meant to write is religious zealots.
I will reluctantly apologize for not knowing the fine differences among the world's gazillions of religious sects.
My comment was geared towards any religious group (christian, jewish, muslim, whatever) that's trying to use the government to impose it's belief system on believers and non believers alike.
First Amendment FTW! /fnord
marino09.15.08 - 11:18 am
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ideasculptor -
Jewish men are very respectful of their women.
Me -
That might be part of the problem right there. No one owns anyone one.
Bottom line no one can dictate what someone wears in public as long as it isn't against the law.
Bottom line all religions are based on superstition. It's 2008 not 1008! Follow science.
If these dudes want to dictate what someone wears in public, then I'm sure they'll get hassled about dressing like it's Halloween!
User109.15.08 - 1:02 pm
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bottomline is that religious people as so steadfast to define the world in terms of good and evil when in reality the world is much more complex than that.
Roadblock09.15.08 - 6:37 pm
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As Franz said upthread, what happens when people with these beliefs become the majority in an area?
Ultra-Orthodox vigilantes spread fear in Jerusalem
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080915063412.dgwo885y&show_article=1
Shaking as she recalled her brutal beating at the hands of Jewish ultra-Orthodox vigilantes, a 28-year-old Jerusalem woman who would only identify herself as M. said she feared for her life.
...
In 2006, a 50-year-old American-Israeli woman was viciously attacked by four men because she refused to go to the back of a bus while on holiday in Jerusalem. The bus was not one of the sex-segregated lines Jerusalem runs to accommodate Haredi preferences.
I don't know if these are Hasids, but they are Ultra-orthodox jews!
gregb09.15.08 - 7:16 pm
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Gregb,
The story wasn't carried via Haaretz. So it never happened.
User109.15.08 - 7:33 pm
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Ridazz Roulette!
I believe in Bike God.
this thread is too talky
Hurrah! Now this thread can SINK!