Spokekillazz
Thread started by
hatehills at 12.31.07 - 12:45 am
I've been breaking spokes (on pretty new wheels) lately at an alarming rate. Anyone else ever had this problem? Solution?
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I know this problem pretty well... First off... what rims do you got on? Stock or hand built? And most importantly... how much do you weight? Most wheels... that come stock on bikes aren't really made for the "Clydesdale" (200+ lbs) type of riders... My stock Alex rims (rear) just kept breaking spokes (the front held up) after riding w/ the cubbies and I ended up getting wheels hand built. Velocity Deep V's, 3x laced, 36 hole, high tension, Ultegra hubs and I haven't trued them since. They've held up really well w/ my weight and w/ the additional weight of the tunes I lug around. Mavic Open Pros... Mavic cxp22.. these rims are pretty tough as well.
You know... since you're out on the westside... maybe stopping in at bikerowave would maybe be a good option to see if you can build your own wheels. Get the rims, hub, and let a LBS cut the spokes for you. I've spoken to a bunch of people that get a real good satisfaction of building it themselves. I would've rather went that route than letting a bike shop build it for me.
Oh.. and I've also say don't go the cheap route on rims. By quality stuff and built it right... after that... your wheels will definitely take care you.
The thread below can maybe help you out.
http://www.midnightridazz.com/forums.php?searchType=body&showThreads=1&keyword=rim&topicId=1013
digablesoul12.31.07 - 3:38 am
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and if you're on the west side, it might not be a bad idea to support LA Brakeless, particularly if you're riding a singlespeed or fixed as they're a new shop, and I'm sure they'd appreciate the business.
FuzzBeast12.31.07 - 3:48 am
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The only problem I contend with in this regard are "flat-spots" forming on the rim.
I tend to ride my bike as if it's a tank most of the time.
Instead of bunnyhopping(shitty flier+lander), I tend to roll over most obstacles and that tends to do them in.
But, perhaps I should start becoming more careful.
The three bike-shops up here are relatively, ill-equipped.
Mainly because one, cool shop needs to be resupplied every week.
Whilst, the other two serve, mainly, weekend-warrior types and recreational's that could give a ratshit about commuting.
bentstrider12.31.07 - 4:57 am
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Kyber seems to be an expert in this field.
Leetard12.31.07 - 10:38 am
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It is a good suggestion to have you wheels checked for uniform tension. It is very common to have several spokes start to break once one spoke is compromise. The one that will usually go first is the broken spoke's complementary spoke. After that it is a domino effect.
There are several ways to check for uniform tension the most common are a tension meter and the other is the spokes pitch/tone.
A tension meter is a tool that measures the deflection of a spoke. There are several available from Park Tools and other manufacturers. It might be best to go to your LBS since the tool is not that cheap.
Using pitch/tone method is simply plucking the spoke and listening to the sound it makes. Assuming your spokes are of the same length and material, they will be at the same pitch at a given tension. This requires a keen/trained ear.
Once all this is done, have your wheels checked regularly and should last a long time.
sc_nomad12.31.07 - 10:43 am
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Hate to hijack these thread but this statement just bugs me.
" weekend-warrior types and recreational's that could give a ratshit about commuting'.
I do not know how it is meant but the "recreational cyclist" have kept cycling as a sport and industry going. Many of the innovations we currently enjoy like indexed shifting, lighter frames and components, suspension, etc were develop in part to target recreational riders. Thanks to the recreational riders and weekend warriors disposable incomes and demand for better products, we ultimately benefit as the technology trickles down.
Painting 'recreational riders and weekend warriors" in a very broad negative stroke is very naive. I know many non commuters that show more passion for cycling and it's advancement than any cycling commuter I know.
sc_nomad12.31.07 - 11:08 am
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Oh yeah... SC...
I just needed to change two spokes... one broken and another w/ a bad nipple. So I take out the one w/ the bad nipple... and clickity... clack... snap... crackle.. pop!! Four more break. So... definitely check the tension of the other spokes.
digablesoul12.31.07 - 11:09 am
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Thanks for all the tips. I'm also riding the stock Alex rims that came on my bike, so I think you're onto something, Al!!
I'm going to try replacing all the spokes, and if that doesn't work I guess I'll have to look at the Mavics or something. I'm not a fixie rider, but I'll check LA Brakeless. But frankly, I need to fix this problem on the cheap.
Fingers (and spokes) crossed.
hatehills12.31.07 - 11:11 am
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Yup... If you're limited on funds... then replacing all the spokes w/ maybe 14gauge spokes along w/ brass nipples, 36 holes (if your hub/rim permits) and see what the wheel builder can do for you. Good luck w/ the rim and get it fixed so you can ride New Years Day!!
digablesoul12.31.07 - 11:34 am
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@sc_nomad
Okay, I came off a bit harsh there.
Perhaps I should've toned it down and limited it to those types that reside in my neck of the woods.
Rec's and roadies everywhere else seem to be pretty cool.
But, I just have lost all respect for any of them that live in the desert.
Mainly due to the fact that they all tend to go into hiding once the weather gets cold.
That and the cold tends to make me a little, more irritable than usual.
bentstrider12.31.07 - 11:46 am
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Great suggestions so far, but one thing not mentioned yet is tires. IMHO, as long as you're not racing, fatter tires make a lot of sense considering the horrible road conditions around here, and give a bit of suspension to a rigid bike. If you're careful to choose some that aren't too heavy, there's actually a lot of benefits to using wider tires, like better control & less rolling resistance, although people like to debate these things. One company I like for tires is Schwalbe, who make a huge range of road-oriented slick & semi-slick fatties.
angle12.31.07 - 12:25 pm
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Great point Angle... riding 700x23 just freaked me out. So... I decided to increase it to 700x28. Definitely cushions the ride and didn't realize how much a difference it made. If my frame would take 700x32's I would've given that a try. I ride Bontrager Race Lite Hardcase.... they roll pretty sweet and knock on wood... not a flat yet.
digablesoul12.31.07 - 12:44 pm
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In order for wider tires to have less rolling resistance than skinny tires, the skinny tires have to be horribly underinflated.
I don't know many people who roll on 23's at 80psi.....
kyber12.31.07 - 12:57 pm
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Hate Hills,
Depending on what wheels you have, replacing all the spokes won't be cheap. I have Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheels (not the top of the line SL's) and most of the LBS's don't carry my spokes in stock yet, they are special order. And they are close to $4 each. Times that by 18 per wheel, and it gets very expensive! I just wanted to by a couple of spares of each size to keep in my kit for emergencies, and no one on the West Side has them in stock but will be ordering the kit and then can sell me a few backups. I'd only replace them all if truly necessary.
Good luck.
stevo
stevo412.31.07 - 1:27 pm
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It's true that running taller tires might give you some benefits relieving the stress on the wheel/spokes but it would just be a band-aid if your wheelset is not structurely sound. The cost of getting new tires is a more than getting your wheels checked by a competent bike wrench and there are no benefits when it comes to the structural integrity of the wheel.
Buying new tires should be an additional consideration once it is determined that the wheel itself is fine. I run 700 x 23 on all my road bikes with 120 - 140 psi. I have'nt had a problem with breaking spokes yet.
A better suggestion, as someone eluded to earlier, is making sure you run the proper tire pressure as the manufacturer suggest
sc_nomad12.31.07 - 1:37 pm
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It's ok SC Nomad, you let it out. Don't hold the frustration inside.
Tell it like it is. That why we love you. That, and the tubes you give out, the escorts you perform, the flashing Cars R Coffins bottle light. Your vans shoes matching your bike. All the help you give people.
Thats it, I nominate SC Nomad R.O.T.M. for January.
sexy12.31.07 - 1:39 pm
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Thanks sexy! You're right I need to step away from this computer and ride to get all the aggression out. Which I think I will do as soon as I find the matching sunglasses and gloves to go with my kit.
See y'all later, I'm going to ride.
sc_nomad12.31.07 - 1:44 pm
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Just make sure those gloves and glasses, aren't too many grams.
sexy12.31.07 - 1:57 pm
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Hey, kyber:
I would have thought that was true, too, but a lot of info I've run into recently contradicts that, the idea being that skinny tires have less area to support the same amount of weight, which means that they actually have a larger contact patch with the road. At any rate, wide tires do have other advantages, too.
If anyone is interested in the geeky stuff, here's a couple of short articles on the subject I know of:
http://www.rivbike.com/article/components/tires
http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/rolling_resistance
angle12.31.07 - 2:06 pm
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Oh, and agreed, well-built wheels are most important as far as spoke-breaking is concerned.
angle12.31.07 - 2:20 pm
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Interesting.
But it's not really based on science, and comes from a bike manufacturer who touts a line of "fatter tires" and thus, is inherently biased.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I've never read anything that has explained the science behind the theory that fatter tires have less rolling resistance.
kyber12.31.07 - 2:21 pm
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Angle is right, fatter tires at the same pressure as a narrower tire of the same construction have less rolling resistance at the same pressure.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance.html
toweliesbong01.1.08 - 7:34 pm
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As far as spoke breakage goes, make sure your spokes are stress relieved in addition to having even tension around the wheel. This only applies to standard wheels, not the boutique wheelsets.
toweliesbong01.1.08 - 7:37 pm
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"Painting 'recreational riders and weekend warriors" in a very broad negative stroke is very naive. I know many non commuters that show more passion for cycling and it's advancement than any cycling commuter I know."
I wholeheartedly disagree. Commuters and tourists look for reliable rides, weekend warriors and recreational riders pretty much do not. Weekend warriors are exactly why we have ridiculously complex and unrepairable parts and wheels these days.
toweliesbong01.1.08 - 7:42 pm
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as to rolling resistance, the operative word here being that "at the same pressure" thing... the thing is, a fatter tire can't take as high of a pressure as a smaller one... running 120+ psi on a 23c tire will give you less rolling resistance than running a 28c at 100 or a 1.25" at 90 psi, as the slightly softer pressures run at wider tires tends to expand the contact patch similar to one that is comparable in length to that of a smaller tire, in practice, not theory, fatter tires have higher resistance. Also, as is stated on the schwalbe site, the thing about a ride at 20 kph (12 mph), is that that average speed is about the limit before air reistance starts becoming a factor... so the scope of their explanation is a bit off.
This is not to say that larger tires don't have advantages, such as traction (to a point, there are certain situations where a thinner tire will actually afford you BETTER control), and their weight bearing abilities (one of the reasons touring bikes run the same type of rims as cross bikes, that and the conditions they are designed for include things like dirt roads and things)
FuzzBeast01.1.08 - 8:12 pm
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Yep, I never run more than 100 PSI, don't see a need to since I don't race, so I run the widest tires that can handle 100PSI, generally 28s.
toweliesbong01.1.08 - 8:18 pm
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Very true about the aerodynamic and lower pressure effects, FuzzBeast. I think the Rivendell article goes into some of the positives of running lower pressures, but it certainly would increase rolling resistance. Ultimately, I do think that the rolling resistance question gets to be a bit of a red herring, as the performance and feel of a bike depends on so many other factors that are probably more significant. It does seem to be what people (including myself) like to debate about, though.
If there's any practical thing I would like to get across regarding tires, I guess it would be that a lot of the "commuter-style" tires being made now are very high-performance (and can take fairly high pressures, in some cases) as compared to the clunky old cruiser balloon tires, and the advantages they have may be a benefit for transportational and urban cyclists, who can encounter a lot of different riding conditions. I know that I prefer the handling of my bike with fatter tires, but equipment is, of course, a pretty personal thing.
Slicks vs. treads, anyone?
angle01.1.08 - 10:12 pm
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I do not understand how this statement makes a point about the passion for cycling which is the point I was trying to make.
"Commuters and tourists look for reliable rides, weekend warriors and recreational riders pretty much do not. Weekend warriors are exactly why we have ridiculously complex and unrepairable parts and wheels these days'.
Recreational cyclists by definition, ride for the pure joy of cycling. Whether it is the technology or just the feeling that draws the recreational cyclist it does not matter, they ride to ride. If you ride for fun or leisure you are a recreational cyclist.
Even racers are recreational cyclists, they do it purely for riding and the competition. Cycling is a very brutal sport, one has to really love it to keep on doing it year after year. 200+ quality miles a week for 10 months out of the year. And for what? An hour race during the weekend. That my friend is passion.
And if you think they do it for the prize money, they don't. It costs around $5,000 to $8,000 a year to race and that does not include the bike which is around 3,000+ every couple of years.. Only the very best make money. Maybe a few in a million can make a living out of cycling.
Commuters on the other hand don't all ride to ride. Many do it because of circumstance, examples are DUIs, financial reasons. Not all do it by choice. There was a great article in Bicycling Magazine that someone posted here about invisible riders. That article clearly shows that these commuters ride because of necessity.
And about the remark about the ability to repair a bike, that is untrue. Most of the technology on a road bike has matured a long time ago. A derailleur still works as it always works, brakes still work the same way. A wheel is still a wheel. A bike is no more complex than it was 20 years ago.
What has changed is material. While it is not probably not easy to work on carbon, aluminum or whatever new composite material the bike manufacturers use, steel bikes are still available; and comparatively cheaper that it would cost 20 years ago.
sc_nomad01.1.08 - 10:56 pm
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Have you repaired an Ergo or STI brifter? Can you find spokes on the shelf for a discontinued Mavic, Bontrager, or Reynolds wheelset? There are many worthless crank/bb combos out there now due to Shimano's and their competitor's experiments with interface designs. All this stuff is driven by marketing rather than utility and the weekend warriors sop this stuff up with no thought to reliability, repairability, or utility, and the good shit dies off. Yeah, I'm still pissed that I can't buy new Suntour XC Pro thumbshifters.
toweliesbong01.1.08 - 11:15 pm
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"Painting 'recreational riders and weekend warriors" in a very broad negative stroke is very naive. I know many non commuters that show more passion for cycling and it's advancement than any cycling commuter I know."
I'm not arguing about the passion, I'm arguing about whether the advancements due to marketing to weekend warriors are a good thing or not.
toweliesbong01.1.08 - 11:18 pm
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Well, one thing about repairing a bike is the fact that it will remain easier than repairing any car.
I always find a way to retrofit a bike with the part that comes close to fitting the space.
Try doing this to a car, and you'll either break down, or blow-up in a fireball.
Not to mention the fact that cars are upgraded and older parts for older vehicles tend to get retconned out of existence.
And if that doesn't happen, then they usually have to be "special-ordered" from some aftermarket factory.
sc_nomad said that most commuters do it out of "economic/legal" circumstances.
That's true in all ways seen fit, but I simply abandoned cars due to the fact that I don't want to take an unnecessary, financial risk.
Buy a vehicle, then cross my fingers that it will not break down in spite of all the precautionary, mechanical checks I performed on it.
It seems like each car I've gotten my hand on had some type of internal problem, that required diagnostic machines to be discovered.
So, rather than plop down $800 for a bucket, I'll use that towards something else and keep my sanity somewhat intact.
bentstrider01.2.08 - 12:53 am
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Didn't mean to hijack, I just get riled up when a debate is launched in regards to "bicycle vs. car" for everyday transportation.
bentstrider01.2.08 - 4:54 am
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Yes I've rebuilt Ergo shifters and I know STIs are almost impossible to repair for the average cyclist. I also agree that there are bad products out there that were introduced and marketed heavily; Biopace is one that comes to mind.
But to say that technology is not a good thing is kinda harsh. As in all industries, the marketing types will flood the market with useless gizmos and campaigns to get people to buy stuff. This is a necessary evil unfortunately, since some one needs to make a profit to keep the industry going.
The good innovations will stay and the bad ones will eventually disappear. I'm also aware that some innovation is driven by competition. When Shimano went from 8 to 9 speed, Campy was slow to react and cost them market share. So when Shimano went from 9 to 10 speeds, Campy followed suit quickly. The debate is on how many gears you really need is still going on.
There are many who adhere to the adage ' If it ain't broke, don't fix it.' But this industry is driven by profit so change is needed to maintain its growth.
Ultimately benefit for us is, as technology trickles down and the production/sales offset the R&D cost, good products become more affordable.
sc_nomad01.2.08 - 10:42 am
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Actually,
Biopace wasn't a bad idea. The weekend warriors rejected it so the riders who could utilize it's benefits lost out.
toweliesbong01.2.08 - 11:09 am
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Anyway, I'm living my meme, you're living yours, and the most important meme is that the more people that ride, the better.
The meme police, they live inside of my head.
toweliesbong01.2.08 - 11:14 am
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think part of the demise of Biopace came about from preference. I bought into the Biopace hype and eventually did not like it. Maybe Biopace was a bad example to use but I am speaking from my own experience.
Getting back to technology and it's benefits. Here is an observation from my own experience.
I have several original road bikes from every decade since the 70's. Most of them were, at the time, the best offering from their manufacturers; a '71 Peugeot PX-10(Simplex/Stronglight), 80's Concorde (Campy Record), 90's Cannondale Saeco Team Replica (Campy Record). Adjusting for inflation, all these bikes were approximately the same price. While I did not own these specific bikes then, I had the same or similar quality bike. I sought out these makes specifically since I regretted selling my originals.
While the craftsmanship of the older bikes were exquisite, when it comes to function the newer bikes are better. Same is true for the ride, except for the Saeco (great for racing but super stiff).
But my newest bike 07' Cannondale Synapse SL (DuraAce) which is half the cost of any of the bikes mentioned above , inflation adjusted, is exponentially better than any of them. Also just in a the course of a year, my next newest bike 08 Cannondale Super Six (SRAM Force) will be significantly better than the Synapse and for the same price.
BTW, all these bikes are maintained and are ride ready but every time I go for a road ride I almost always go for the Synapse.
sc_nomad01.2.08 - 11:59 am
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Hatehills, I have a pair of modern basic Mavic 700 wheels in near new condition. I wouldn't mind selling them. (there's no model number on them, just SUP)
ec at coffeeanddonut dot com
Eric Hair01.2.08 - 12:09 pm
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And your right. The common enemy is the uninformed motorist. We are all part of a bigger cycling community and we all want the same thing which is space. Whether it is the few inches on the road or access to the trails, it is the same battle.
As a roadie, I shepherd juniors (8 - 16 yo) twice a week. At almost every ride we get honk or yelled at, we get stuff thrown at us and cars zoom and cut us off all the time. These are young boys and girls and the fools do not make a distinction.
As a mountain biker, the issue is still for space and access. The opposition are uninformed equestrian, hikers and conservationist.
I originally hijacked the thread since I felt that we were picking on fellow cyclists who have the same struggles as we do. I did not want to alienate people who have already converted.
sc_nomad01.2.08 - 12:13 pm
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I actually ended up getting my wheels completely rebuilt under warranty. I'm grateful that I didn't have to spend any money to fix this. I rode the new spokes all day yesterday and...so far so good. I hope they hold for a real long time.
Thanks for all the help, and Eric...I'll keep your Mavics in mind if i run into problems again.
How did my broken spokes turn into bikes vs. the world?
:)
hatehills01.2.08 - 1:23 pm
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