Thread started by Roadblock at 04.3.07 - 11:17 am

Last night on Wolfpack a hit and run accident occurred. The car driver cut into the right hand turn lane where many of us were riding with the pace of traffic and in a very legal manner at the time. The car was heading east down Los Feliz to turn right at riverside. We were riding along side traffic in the right lane when he cut across the lane and hit one of our riders. The person knew we were there because he seemed to wait for me to get past him and I think he tried to time a slight break in the riders between me and the riders behind me.

It happened right behind me so I didnt get to see it. But I heard the shuffle and crunch of the hit anf I turned around to see the car gas it and peel around heading south on riverside. a group of us chased the car as fast as we could. and the guy stopped at a light briefly up by the 5 exit. but then ran the light and mistakenly tried to enter the freeway via the off-ramp. he turned around and raced away heading south on Riverside possibly turning right on glendale or getting on the 5 freeway. He was so far ahead we couldnt get a license plate. I was tailing the car on Los Feliz and noticed the car specifically because he was driving irradically even near the top of los feliz. I might have seen an R M and an A on the plate but man it's incredible how hard it is to remember anything when it all goes down.

Everyone agrees that the car was a light silver sports sedan 4 door. Some type of acura or lexus sports sedan. newer model. I thought it might have been a bmw but it wasnt it was a bmw-like body style.

Our rider is ok but was taken away on the ambulance. The police were awesome and so were the fire department.

I know it's not looking good to catch this person........ but damn what can be done to better track hit and runs?! Seems like there's one every month or so and no justice. It happens so quick that it's practically impossible to remember or focus on the details. drivers can get away clean practically every time and even when a plate is taken down (as in the case of Jen Diamond) it still doesnt seem to lead anywhere.

what can be done??



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Fuck man ... That is terible news indeed.
My well wishes to the fallen Wolf Pack rider.
If he needs help paying bills or getting his bike back on the road, another benefit is in order.



trickmilla
04.3.07 - 11:30 am

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Amen to that Roadblock. Other cities have web-stes set up to deal with shit like this. They also help out when people get their bikes stolen - post a photo, and ask for people to track it down.

I'd like to help get this sort of thing really going - maybe the LACBC can help out? We need a place to put details of accidents, and then get those of us motivated to call and write about these things to do so.

If we get a few dozen calls to a councilman's office, it can do a lot to get the police to pursue an issue. Car drivers have the AAA, and insurance companies, and a culture of enforcement for things like this. Bicyclists don't have a goddamn thing except "wear a helmet".



ubrayj02
04.3.07 - 11:37 am

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Borfo Suggestions:

Preventative -
You mostly can tell if someone's contemplating on pulling a stupid maneuver. I try to make a HELL of a lot of noise in tight situations. Screaming tends to intimidate the driver from moving. Just yell! HEEEEEEEEEEEEY!!!!!!!!!!

--

A crazy idea, but just a thought:
(something I'd try to do if I were nearby when this shit happened)

Try to pull a GTA move.

If the driver seems to want to take off; If at all possible, open the driver side door and pull the sucker out. (I'm brain storming guys)

--

Also - It's good to have a camera ready. Or a pen. I have always have a sharpie in my pocket.

I hope that Wolfpacker is going to be ok.




Joe Borfo
04.3.07 - 11:54 am

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It kind of depresses me to even think of offering soloutions
because if sombody can pull this on the wolfpack, arguabley the fastest, most vocal, most agressive group of riders in L.A. (who tend to have at least a few cameras on hand) then i shutter to think what can happen to the average lone rider.

I mean other than traveling armed (i'm definately not suggesting that), what can one really do against the speed of a car on a vacant street?

I've often thought about carrying a nice smooth stone in my pocket.

....
Don't forget that tonight is the Bicycle Advisory Committee meeting
it only happens once very 2 months so show up tonight and bring your ideas ... soapboax made it real easy for you by putting on a ride.




trickmilla
04.3.07 - 12:10 pm

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i/ve always wanted to use a paintball gun barrell as my bars so i can just pop off asshole cars driving next to me hahaha

it pisses me off that this shit happens, but "CAR-ma" will get em.


I hope the rider will be ok. Sending my best!!!!



richtotheie
04.3.07 - 12:16 pm

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That radio station which encouraged hatered toward bicyclists owes us some airtime for encouraging this.

Perhaps the city will support a cyclists rights PR campaign?




OverTheHill
04.3.07 - 12:54 pm

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man it blows my mind. It all happensso fucking fast. all of those things you mentioned borfo are great. I wish I had my helmet cam on. fuck. it blows my mind that people can get away with it.......... we are aggressive and fast and loud and we still got burned. drivers that run are fucking cowards

I have the night rider minewt led light. it cost me $180 after tax and I really think that it has saved me a few times. I have it on flash and aimed at the drivers face level for best performance.

fuck! this shit kills me...... he jetted so fast and there was so much chaos.

hey borfo when you said GTA I was thinking were about to say pull another driver out their car and comandeere it!


imagine the poor souls who ride alone and get hit and left for dead.





Roadblock
04.3.07 - 1:18 pm

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scarey situation. good points Roadblock. yah i'd hate to be hit and left for dead. luckily this time there was help, too bad the driver got away, that coward. running away from bikes after hitting one. what a macho person. Karma will catch up to him.



t.bone
04.3.07 - 1:56 pm

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hey guys, I'm not the most saavy car enthusiast identifying type.... I'm trying to compile some images of the make model of the car. anyone that saw that shit please post a pic of the make model you think it was.

I believe there was more than one person in the car.



Roadblock
04.3.07 - 2:01 pm

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I fucking had a camera on me too. but I was so in shock and focused on trying to catch up to see a license plate or something..... no hope on that street, it's pretty empty.



Roadblock
04.3.07 - 2:14 pm

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Being a cyclist and motorcyclist for many years, having a notion that someone is going to be a dumbass in a car usually pays off in that person actually doing a dumbass move. Even so, providing entitlement for dumbasses gets a little old from time to time. When some dumbass almost kills me, my prior profession's mindset kicks into gear and even the smallest details of that particular dumbass stands out, especially a license plate. Maybe the Wolfpack and other groups could designate a sober person to be a kind of spotter and help in identifying a dumbass even before they pick someone off? It'll always be a busy night for them since there seems to be so many dumbasses out there.



Jeronimo
04.3.07 - 2:51 pm

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I'm always thinking the best prevention is to edjumacate people; but that takes tons of money and stuff. Are any of you rich??? eh... haha. Like imagine commercials with Lance Armstrong or Arnold teaching people about the laws of the road. Or even billboards in busy areas that state some simple laws in ways that don't point fingers. Stage pictures of famous people "riding" on the streets, ha! PSA's basically. I'm sure if everyone knew it was legal for us to be on the road there would be a lot less aggression towards us.

also we need to like, have simple flyers for cars around us while we ride that say stuff like "THANK YOU!" and have all this disney explaination of the real rules of the road complete with codes and stuff. maybe even encouraging them to ride with us? give them to the irate drivers that yell "get off the road!", "get a helmet!", "get on the sidewalk!", or dak's favorite "get off the road; i used to race bikes!" then on the back we can write down quick license plate numbers...

how scatterbrain am i?



neverclever
04.3.07 - 3:56 pm

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You don't get to be the designated identifier...



Jeronimo
04.3.07 - 4:17 pm

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Yo, the LADOT has the educational information you need!

Check out their Emmy-award winning Public Service Announcement "LAWS OF PHYSICS"!

http://www.lacity.org/ita/flash/lacityview35clips/Laws_of_Physics.rm
(This is in RealPlayer format, so you need RealPlayer to open this)

This pro-car bullshit brought to you by:
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION - LA CITYVIEW35
Tony Ighani, Executive Producer/Producer
Ken Husting, Executive Producer
Robert Manciero, Producer

Education is important, but we need car lanes removed and we need car traffic to be slowed down to make biking and walking safer. This PSA is an example of what we're up against. Anti-bicycle sentiment is ingrained in our culture - educational programs aren't gonna do it (by themselves). We need the roads to be built for bikes - and we need cops to enforce law in a bike-friendly way.



ubrayj02
04.3.07 - 4:20 pm

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Ohhh that pisses me off! That's about as good as "the Lug Nut Rule"...

Let's make our own video!




Joe Borfo
04.3.07 - 4:41 pm

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I'm with you 'neverclever' but you don't need tons of money, celebrities or air time to have a campaign.

You need a silkscreen, paper, paste and a motivated army.

Everyone in LA knows to 'OBEY' Andre.
Maybe it's time for them to know something more beneficial.



Eric Hair
04.3.07 - 4:53 pm

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yaaah! i know, it's just celebs and money are the easiest and quickest ways... just because of the way people soak up media. i'm starting to detest television more and more... except that "planet earth" show... maaan polar bears are friggin cool but we keep messing up their ice yo!

a little paper, rollers and water would help in the long run so that's cool! though, i was saddened to see some sharrows on figueroa PAINTED OVER in black... it's like... wtf!



neverclever
04.3.07 - 5:04 pm

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a little paper, rollers and water would help in the short run, too.
where's 420LaHaRR??



spiraldemon
04.3.07 - 5:13 pm

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Is anyone interested in following up on the 'education' ideas by starting a huge wheatpasting army?

If we just plastered propaganda everywhere (sort of like what cicle.org has going on, but with more emphasis on protecting our rights) it would eventually seep into the heads of the masses.

This is a relatively simple and fun way to make our presence knowsn. Who's down?



kyber
04.3.07 - 5:40 pm

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service by me and my blue bike is available for gratis!



meandmybluebike
04.3.07 - 5:47 pm

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down



Joe Borfo
04.3.07 - 6:24 pm

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we need a lobbying group that can harang the shit out oour local politicians.

on the wheatpaste tip I'd like to see something like "Welcome to Silverlake (or whatever city) a cycling friendly community. Please proceed with caution"



Roadblock
04.3.07 - 6:38 pm

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In San Francisco its just a given that there are bikes on the road, and not to say that there are zero hit and runs, but probably less. Its tough being alone on my daily commute here in LA, I really took it for granted that in SF there would always be other cyclists on the road.

I agree that bringing attention to bike culture is most important...preferably positive attention.
Just letting everyone know that what we exist is a stepping stone.
The other day my mom was saying that she was telling a coworker that I ride everyday to work. That coworker said, "Well, I'm sure YOUR daughter doesnt do this, but I hate when they ride in the road." I told my mom she should have said "Yeah, that is my fuckin daughter and she has a right to fuckin ride in the road."...or something to that effect.

I'd be down for wheatpasting. Its sounds lame but making riding bikes seem "tough" as opposed to sissy is key to getting attention/envy. Of course it can go too far and risk backfiring, for instance the bike messenger crowd in SF getting all elitist and asshole-y. I give the LA bike scene ups for for keeping a welcoming vibe.



Buiser
04.3.07 - 8:56 pm

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Any cameras on that intersection?



deesimple
04.3.07 - 9:07 pm

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the key is just to keep cycling fun and healthy in the eyes of everyone...
I dont think it helps to look tough.... that wont encourage people to join it will just intimidate some people and invite others to challenge you.



Roadblock
04.3.07 - 9:26 pm

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no cameras according to the officers who were assisting us.



Roadblock
04.3.07 - 9:27 pm

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Thats exactly why I put tough in quotes, roadblock. I dont mean tough in the intimidating way. I mean it in the cute way. The playful sense. Its what got me to join in.



Buiser
04.3.07 - 9:42 pm

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shit I tytped this whole huge response and it didnt go through, anyway,
basically, I said, that when I got intentionally tapped a couple weeks ago by a guy in a maroon mid-late 80's oldsmobile type pos (who then ran), even the pedestrians on the corner didnt even seem to give a shit, which almost amazed me more than someone intentionally trying to hit me.

Something needs to be done, I make my signs, as you guys know, but half of em come down way too fast. I'm totally down to help make some "CVC says BIKES belong ON THE ROAD" type posters. I mean, when we have hit and runs, and cyclists being assaulted just fr riding where the law tells them to (like in the other thread) and shit, something needs to be done. If we can't get help from the city (who thinks helping is moving the oh so inneffective bike lanes further into the door zone) we have to do something.
The LACBC is great, and keep that shit up guys, but the thing is, those type of changes, especially infrastructural ones, take a long time, lots of time for people to get hit again, or eventually even killed.

may the deepest pit of whatever hell you believe in be reserved for those that harm bicyclists.



FuzzBeast
04.4.07 - 10:39 am

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All this talk of making motorists more aware of us is great, but we need to defend/protect ourselves with more than a wheatpasting. I was riding through Hollywood a couple weeks ago with my girl and we were stopped at a light. As soon as the light changed this chick with 3 other people in the car started honking nonstop while following us for about a block- all the while rushing up to my wheel and then falling back about 5 feet repeatedly. I tried to wave her around us but this bitch intentionally runs up on my back end so far that she had to back up to get off my wheel. I hopped off my bike and it stayed standing up because her car was still on it. She backs up and tries to run but I and a witness wouldn't let them leave and we dialed 911. They refused to send an officer so we called again from my girl's phone AND the witness' phone but they don't want to do SHIT about vehicular assault. We eventually waved down a passing cop car and all they would do is make a report to file with the insurance company. If I had been riding on anything but old ass steelies my wheel would be a taco and I'd be crippled.

My point is this: We had lights and were as far to the right as possible and I got ZERO help from the authorities after being intentionally hit by a car. You can take the slow road and post urban wheatpasting pseudo graffiti if you'd like or you can carry D cell batteries and a cable with a big nasty lock on the end and take things into your own hands. If I had that night to do over again, that bitch would have a new dent in her new car.- no cops, no drama, just damage. You've all got some good suggestions and I respect that, but when I think about someone threatening my girl's life with a car I want to pound them.

Playing nice might not keep our heads from being split like melons.



eric
04.4.07 - 11:26 am

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They don't do much if a motorist intentionally hurts a cyclist...would they do anything if the cyclist intentionally retaliates and hurts a motorist?

If they don't count hitting a person with a car an assault...would they count hitting a person in a car with a bicycle, an assault?

Hmmm...it's an interesting rhetorical question...

As for D batteries...that sounds good, just make sure they don't roll into the storm drain...I don't want the little fishies to get hurt...

I don't condone violence...but anyone want to go shooting?





adrian
04.4.07 - 1:00 pm

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Eric - call me @ 323-962-6540. I have a pending complaint with Hollywood Police - Just got of the phone with the watch commander and am waiting for Capt. Farrell.



SoapBoxLA
04.4.07 - 1:03 pm

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Eric, I commend for you for at least trying what you did. I just can't believe those damn cops! Your girl's life was being intentionally threatened with a lethal weapon!

We need to make a stink about all of this. Ive been intentionally lunged at several times by idiots. Sure, maybe they were just trying to scare me... but, that is no excuse. It's like somebody is waving a gun in your face... What is the difference?!?!

I don't recommend physical retaliation. However, It makes perfect sense to do what it takes for the perpetrator to become responsible for his/her actions. Its a damn shame that those pigs wouldn't give you the time of day. Do you have the drivers information? Can we report to someone about the police for not helping? This is so ridiculous!





Joe Borfo
04.4.07 - 1:08 pm

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Last night Soapbox and I met the guy who is basically the head bike cop. He seemed like a cool enough guy. And for better or worse he even expressed an interest in rolling with the midnight ridazz as a civillian.

I know for a fact that he has no time for this shit. He claims that he gives out more citations than other officers but has never cited a cyclist. Clearly he must be as puturbed by this bullshit as we are even though nobody is stupid enough to try this shit with hime while he is riding in uniform.

Steven I know you got his contact.
Do you think that he would mind being a point person for us to contact in regard to police lethargy.

It is a matter of fucking fact that the reason that Jen Diamond's assialiant is not behind bars because of police inaction.

I have a friend who got a DUI bcause his car was parked on the curb ... the cops knocked on his door and he was hammered ... snd they took him in. If they can do that certainly they could a spent a few moments trying down to track down an attempted murderer.

Not all cops are part of the problem.
But we definately need to try and get the more elightened memebers of our department to support this one simple thing:
There should be ZERO tolerance for drivers using cars to threaten or assault people. Peroid.
Any officer who can't get behind that 100% should not be on the streets.



trickmilla
04.4.07 - 1:25 pm

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the cops filled out these slips of paper with each person's info, so i do (or at least did) have the chick's info. some are pushing me to claim a new rear wheel and others are suggesting worse since I know where she lives. i'll never, ever go to someone's house for retaliation. What I resolved to do was just mail her the CVC section pertaining to my right to be in the street., but my girl might have inadvertently trashed the slip of paper, so...

it was nuts, this chick was yelling a us to 'get the fuck out of the street' then just lurched forward and hit me. it was surreal, infuriating...man what a range of emotions. there was another chick in the car and 2 dudes but they didn't say shit til there were cops present, and even then all the bitch did was say 'he's lying, he's lying'. she was even telling the cops that i should have gotten out of the street or been on the sidewalk. it was supremely dramatic and that's the opposite of the way i operate. i may be wild and sometimes loud in familiar company, but drama is not my bag.

as for violence...sometimes that is exactly what is needed in particular situations. i'm no pacifist and i'll perform super human feats of strength, violence and ability to protect my sweetheart.

Things to carry:
spare tube
rocks, batteries
cable w/ lock
huevos grandes



eric
04.4.07 - 1:36 pm

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"an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
-gandhi



spiraldemon
04.4.07 - 1:40 pm

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"If they don't count hitting a person with a car an assault...would they count hitting a person in a car with a bicycle, an assault?"

LOL!

the thought of using my bike as a weapon against an aggressive driver makes me smile because i'm riding (what feels like 250 pounds of) vintage french metal, lol :)




eric
04.4.07 - 2:02 pm

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Bashing a motorist's head in won't do much to help bicyclist awareness, but in self defense it California, I kicked in a woman's headlight when she almost t-boned me by running a stop sign; she hadn't even noticed me until I broke the light, as I rode by... she was so she was so shaken and distraught by the event that it took me several minutes to get her calmed down. She wasnt even mad about the light, she was more upset about almost hitting me, upset at her own actions.
I did it, i'm not proud that I had to... but I did it to save my own ass, however this was a case of an inattentive driver and trying to get their attention, not a case of some homicidal maniac attempting to mke road pizza out of someone because of something as simple as them being on a bicycle.
Hell, numbers don't even help. I've had shit thrown at me on ridazz, several times, I was hit with a full beer (opened so it would soak me) on the ninja ride, was hit with an egg while unlocking my bike from a pole in north hollywood 10 minutes before a ride, had someone attempt to hit me head on at about 60 on 6th street during the art ride.

The thing is, violence won't cause these people not to try to harm us, in fact it will probably only provoke more. The only way to resolve these issues are to raise people's awareness of the right of bicycles to be on the road.
I'm not saying that one shouldn't be prepared to defend themselves from some ignorant psychopath, just that taking offensive actions will only cause things like this to continue.



FuzzBeast
04.4.07 - 2:09 pm

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hmm, for some reason part of my first line got erased/
it should have read: ...in self defense it's ok. Just before I moved to California...



FuzzBeast
04.4.07 - 2:17 pm

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I'm gonna have to go with spiraldemon and ghandi on this one.

Advocating violence against motorists is a bad idea. If they are trying to kill you, that is a different story. Self defense is extremely useful in situations like these, but I think that outright attacking people is not the way to stop these incidents from happening.

Think about this.... When we heard about the radio show jocks who were telling their listeners to run us off the roads, it made us angry didn't it? Now what would happen if motorists (the HUGELY dominating force on the roads in LA) began waging an all out war on cyclists? Advocating violence would just lead to renegade behavior and number of incidents would rise as never before.

What we want is equality here guys. Not to beat the "other" into submission. We need to make everyone aware that we're here, we ride on the roads, and we're not going anywhere. Period.

What we need here is to raise awareness. We need to point out what makes us and motorists alike, and not turn ourselves into a bunch of warring factions. The reality is that we're both on the road, and that we both have our own unique issues as cyclists and motorists. Most of all, we need to learn how to respect each other. And I hope I don't sound too biased here when I say that I feel like motorists have quite a long way to go compared to us.



kyber
04.4.07 - 2:20 pm

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I agree with FuzzBeast...

"violence won't cause these people not to try to harm us, in fact it will probably only provoke more. The only way to resolve these issues are to raise people's awareness of the right of bicycles to be on the road."

If it comes down to a physical war of cars vs. bicycles, the cars will win every time. Making this issue massively public is the only way a good change will happen.



ronji
04.4.07 - 2:24 pm

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What we really need are "Vehicle Disabling Devices"

http://digilander.libero.it/guerrasociale.org/nonletalweapons.htm

What they do is send a shock through the cars electrical system causing it to shut down. No one in the car gets hurt, but they ain't going anywhere without the help of a mechanic.

The police have been testing these for a few years using a remote control car with a model rocket engine it to launch it at the car they're chasing. The military is apparently testing them now as well.

I think the best application for them would be to disguise them as frame pumps and sell them to cyclists.





BillyB
04.4.07 - 2:42 pm

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"Expecting bikers in San Francisco (?)"... heres an intersting article along these lines, even more interesting are the 300+ comments advocating violence and ticketing towards "our type"....

article:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/04/BAGF7P12RN23.DTL

comments:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/nwzchik/detail?blogid=32&entry_id=15025



mrzeta
04.4.07 - 3:15 pm

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Everything is a case by case basis and being able to assess and respond to an incident is critical. There will always be a right way and a wrong way, but there truly is no set rule only personal guidelines gained through dscussions such as these. We could go on for years with hypothetical and actual incidents, though discussing them from time to time does help immensely with developing the aforementioned guidelines.

If my life is or has been threatened, sure the immediate response will be to protect it and there will be an emotional side to that response. Again, it's all about using what you know from experience and/or the experiences of othes that tends to dictate your response. If you know your limitations and have your wits about you, the outcome should not be as severe as if you've been running around with your head buried in the sand. Awareness and the ability to control all aspects of your response are key.





Jeronimo
04.4.07 - 5:03 pm

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Here is a bit of a suggestion. Perhaps on your next Wolfpack Hustle ride and many others, maybe someone can lead and/or trail the pack as a pacer on a moped or scooter. That way if this incident happens again or something similar, the pacing moped or scooter can give chase to get the license plate. The pacer rider will have a responsibility to make sure the pack stays together and is safe. Kind of like what a sheep dog does in overseeing the flock making sure a sheep does not stray away and/or looks out for possible dangers that may come towards the flocks way. Just my 2 pennys of an idea that can make your bike ride safer on Mondays nights.



"keep it all in one PEACE, not pieces!" ~rolldog



rolldog
04.4.07 - 5:26 pm

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Haha, Infrasound & Isotropic radiators sound perfect, like assault by disco!!!

All funk aside though:
The nature of this forum (cycling) keeps us at a car-vs-cyclist perspective, but the drivers that act extraordinarily agressive towards bicyclists also act extraordinarily agressive outside of their cars; they are the same "brodies" that start shit on the street and in clubs. How do clubs deal with tough guys? They get bouncers!!....

Hmmm, well that logical progression diddn't end with a solution.

But as in Eric's case, it was a chick driving the car (not a tough guy) so the car turned her into a bully when pitted "against" a cyclist. The car gave her a sense of power, like a gun, she believed that she was much more entitled to that piece of pavement than Eric was.

Drivers need to learn a lesson and we need to be the educators, but what is the lesson? I don't think any of us advocate violence as a problem solver, not in the long run at least. Can you imagine the shit storm of cops that would come down on Ridazz if we assaulted people as part of every ride!? (it could be themed assault rides)



Eric Hair
04.4.07 - 7:21 pm

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Two words: Ride On!



Joe Borfo
04.4.07 - 8:33 pm

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I'm into the whole ghandi/ king/ jesus thing of: if I want to live in a world of peace and love I need to radiate peace and love.

On the other hand, I know that most of racists amreica (most of amreica) didn't give a shit about MLK and the non-violent civil rights movement untli the Nation of Islam and Black Panthers started doing their thing.

Also, when a loved one its threatened ... a different instinct takes over.



trickmilla
04.4.07 - 8:39 pm

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I worry about this kind of thing happening on rides. I espesially worry about this kind of thing happening on the Badger Song. Let me know what to do. Thanks for the ideas. I'm sorry about the hit and run on the Wolf Pack....



tern
04.4.07 - 8:50 pm

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did anyone else red the board linked in this article? the one from the SF Gate article about last weekend's cm?
The sheer hatred of cyclists, because they hold up traffic, is insane.
Sure, the back window of her van didnt need to get busted...
But then again the woman didnt need to knock over a cyclist... which, if she hadnt done (with her FIVE kids in the car; which she then used them being traumatized (read scared) as an excuse to try to rationalize her actions) wouldn't have resulted in her window getting smashed... but anyway, the reactions in that thread show the kind of reactions to what would happen were we to start being aggressive toward the motorists who assault us.
hell there were people on there blatantly advocating vehicular homicide... and being congratulated for it.



FuzzBeast
04.4.07 - 9:13 pm

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FuzzBeast-

I read the comments in that article earlier and most of them were downright scary. I just do not understand why there is so much animosity towards cyclists.

But I think we should try to start some type of education campaign in the form of mass signage creation. I know you creat and hang your signs all the time, but just imagine how much we could get done if we had a team of people?

I think we should look into this further. Are you going to cubcamp tomorrow?



kyber
04.4.07 - 9:43 pm

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Having experienced Critical Mass in San Francisco, I can admit to understanding a lot of the anger against CM in the comments. SF sees more overboard anarcist types than LA does, and hope its a lesson to us here on what not to become. So far I havent seen any Midnight Ridazz act anywhere near how some of those guys do. I'm talking kicking cars simply because they are cars, picking fights with cops, throwing beer cans at spectators...real provoking stuff. Don't think it really helps the bike scene any.



Buiser
04.4.07 - 10:14 pm

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This situation is exactly why, when MR was beginning to show signs of violent behaviour that the original planners and caretakers wanted to stop doing the rides..... It's just the worst when a ride becomes an opportunity for some knuckleheads to abuse the power of the mass. It's why this ride really really attempts to encourage peaceful co-existance with cars and will continue to encourage non aggressive behaviour. I have to admit, I've found myself doing stupid shit. we all have lapses in judgement. I hate myself for it and try to move forward in a positive way.

that being said, I dont believe the account of what happened by this lady and the reporter relaying the story 100%. I tend to think the lady acted the way some motorists do when they encounter a mass of cyclists holding them up. They get impatient and try to cut through. As the story says, she was inching through the mass. Normal humans with good judgement and patience know that inching through a parade is going to cause trouble. it's no wonder she got a bad reaction. and you cant totally blame the cyclists for getting aggro it's a natural reaction. by definition SHE was abusing her power of being in a motor vehicle. one car can potentially hurt or kill hundreds of cyclists not the reverse.

Now in this case our brothers and sisters in SF Critical mass would have done better to just handle it by blocking the car and NOT getting agro and smashing it up. the best results would come from showing restraint. The bad press - and there is such a thing as bad press - that crit mass and MR by extension, got from this incident is out there and reverberating in the SF community and others. When WE as mass of cyclists act out in aggression towards motorists it comes back to haunt us and ultimately hurts us very badly in terms of reputation and sympathy from elected officials sympathy from motorists on the road.... road rage incidents....... we need positive press and reputation at all costs.

As a massive ride we have to be the bigger individuals and continue to put on our smiley faces when we encounter these situations no matter how irrate the dirvers get. - Within reasonable safety of course. If a driver acts in extremist ways, then steps have to be taken to defend ourselves...... but overall, when the rides are massive, we are the 800 lb gorrilla in the streets so we have to work hard to remain friendly and represent our community as a fun venture for which motorists are most certainly invited and encouraged to join. The more people riding bicycles, even if it's only once a month, the more likely there will be conscious drivers out there sympathizing with us and respecting our place on the road.



Roadblock
04.4.07 - 10:45 pm

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Well said RB.
MR is insanely fun and I think that we enjoy alot of benifits from riding in such a big group. In return though, it is up to us to represent the group in a positive light.

-------------------------------------------------

This may be my dumbest idea yet, however. . .
I always hear the complaint that insurance cos just fuck off cyclicts trying to make a claim against them. They basically treat us with the same distain as an uninsured motorist. And do everything they can to evade payment even with their client is 100% clearly at fault.

Its interesting, but one of the biggest benifits of having car insurance is that your insurance company will go after the other insurance co. for the cash. Nobody fucks around because everybody has lawyers.

Should there be an insurance co. that covers urban cyclists?
I mean part of the beauty anbd fun of cycling is that it is inexpensive and anarchistic and that we pour very little money into the corperate money machine.

On the other hand ... I could see bike insurance being relitively inexpensive and it would sure be nice to just have to make 1 call and some insurance schmuck would be all over an idiot driver who just busted up your bike or body.



trickmilla
04.4.07 - 11:25 pm

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People are scared of what they don't understand.



Mr. Raymond
04.5.07 - 2:42 am

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just my two cents,

-Peaceful coexistence is the ONLY acceptable solution to our problems on the road. We will not win a war against big oil/auto/govt. until the "public" pulls its head out of their ass. A 'grass'roots guerrilla educational program sounds like a good place to start.

-That lady's experience , as 'terrifying' as it sounded, seems no different than any left turn I've had to make riding a bike alone in LA............. Welcome to the big scawy world outside your television set/internet connection/gated 'community'.



420LaHaRR
04.5.07 - 10:41 am

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"its head out of their ass." ???

who learned me to spoke???



420LaHaRR
04.5.07 - 10:44 am

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In this country change starts underground, shocks and annoys the bourgeoisie, until they get it. It's how it has always worked, and will continue to work.

There are a couple things that I've learned paying, attention to history and current events. Things don't ever change peacefully or quietly. Before anything changes you have to get their attention. You have to cause commotion, raise hell, and make stands before anyone pays attention to anything. Letter-writing, polite phone calls, petitions and votes finalize change. But for change to begin, you have to fight. There will always be martyrs, prisoners and victims of change. Just pay attention to any significant changes to any government policy. From segregation, human and workers rights. Think of how many people have been arrested and died fighting for those things we take for granted these days. How many bikers will have to get hit and killed before this state starts enforcing and educating the car driving public on bicycling rights? Until the state starts doing it, we have a lot of work to do ourselves. That's what Critical Mass was created for. That's what dissent is all about.

The only exception to this is if you have a lot of money. That's how alcohol prohibition laws changed, with the mighty buck.



the reverend dak
04.5.07 - 11:43 am

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I like ice cream.



Mr. Raymond
04.5.07 - 12:08 pm

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Hegel's theory on dialectic materialism.



sc_nomad
04.5.07 - 12:43 pm

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One thing to remember in a hit and run case is to get a good description of the driver. Even if you get the plate number and all that info, unless you can describe the driver your case might not go anywhere. A while back I was involved in a hit and run on the freeway, (car vs car). I got the plate, the car description, filed a police report and all. Since I couldn't describe the driver, all the driver had to do when the CHP went to his house and question him was deny that he drove the car. That is all it takes. It comes down to your word against his and unfortunately it does not matter how absurd the other party's story is it will be given the same credence as yours.

Regarding witnesses, try to get a witness who in not part of your group; a bystander or another motorist is preferred. Using another cyclist as a witness is not as effective because of a percieved bias. This is something that happens a lot.

Here is the good thing, everything I've said works the other way too. So when you attack a motorist wear a mask.



sc_nomad
04.5.07 - 1:03 pm

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< ahref="http://www.wcco.com/video/?id=25571@wcco.dayport.com">are you mad yet?



trickmilla
04.5.07 - 1:13 pm

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try again

< ahref="http://www.wcco.com/video/?id=25571@wcco.dayport.com">are you mad yet?

btw ...
any word on the fallen wolfpacker?
what's his name? what's hist status




trickmilla
04.5.07 - 1:17 pm

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are you mad yet?



kyber
04.5.07 - 2:31 pm

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I'm right there with you on the cyclist insurance tip trickmilla. Damn good idea!



Eric Hair
04.5.07 - 2:37 pm

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That sfgate story is such total one-sided pap. The guy who wrote that took an anti-communist screed from the 1950's, slapped "Critical Mass" and "bicyclist" where it said "pinko" and printed it.

Is there any way to find out who hit the Wolfpack rider?

We really need an online clearinghouse for these incidents.

Also, when you are hit - GET A GOOD LAWYER! Do not contact the driver's insurance company to beg for your money. Your lawyer will expect a cut, but you will get medical treatement and more money from their insurance if you get a good lawyer. The police report is a very important tool your lawyer will use to get what you are owed from a jackass who hits you with their car.

We need some civil court attorneys to plug into our community and make some dough off of all the irresponsible crap that motorists pull.



ubrayj02
04.5.07 - 3:09 pm

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I wonder if Larry H. Parker can get some money for me?



Jeronimo
04.5.07 - 4:17 pm

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The media-fed zombies that "Americans" have become is atrocious. There is a large percent of the population that doesn't believe anything unless some shill is selling it to them via some form of media. How does a group get the media's attention? They either pay for it, have a sympathetic ear or friend in the media, or just raise hell.

Not trying any of those avenues seems counter-productive. If we let motorists treat us like shit and ignore it, there is no doubt that they'll keep treating us like shit. I ride solo almost all of the time (big surprise there, huh?) and as previously stated choose my responses on a case by case basis. If some dumbass almost kills me, I let them know and the level and manner at which I let them know varies. If I don't let them know they almost killed someone, who will they kill with their inattentiveness or whatever their malfunction is next time? I really don't give a shit if it was just an "honest mistake" in their eyes because there is no such thing. When it comes right down to it, their negligence while operating a motor vehicle (which is still a priviledge and not a right the last time I checked) could have cost a life. It's a responsibility of all cyclists to let them know we are there, even down to a 1-1 basis.



Jeronimo
04.5.07 - 4:34 pm

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i havent been able to make it out to the last few wolfpacks due to work. this shit is b-a-n-a-n-a-s.

in mississippi where i used to live, if a car cuts you off or does something stupid to fuck with you when youre on a bike, you have the legal right to shoot at them. biking with a pistol sounds insane, i know, but the driver is assaulting you with a deadly weapon.

equal rights = equal fights.



ruinedbyidiots
04.5.07 - 7:41 pm

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i found her addres and mailed her cvc21200.

done.



eric
04.6.07 - 3:40 pm

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i'm not sure if any of you on this thread checked out my previous thread about getting the chief of transportation, Jaime de la Vega, on a bike for bike to work day. i have been slacking off on getting this going, and i need to get this shit in gear. would anyone be interested in helping me do this? this project needs an organization name behind it. this could be some really amazing positive media attention. or maybe we could get villaraigosa to do it. either way, the media needs to be bombed with bike culture, both social and commuter. it makes me sad to see so many people riding their bikes on the sidewalk. that shouldn't be happening. it's a shame that most people don't feel comfortable riding in the street where they belong.
so let's do this - get some gov't officials on some bikes, on the road, with tons of media, tons of people. it's time to take back the streets!

who's in?



electric otis
04.6.07 - 6:40 pm

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count me in.



Roadblock
04.6.07 - 6:53 pm

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Hmmm, my uncle works for LA's urban development department, and he isnt against bikes. Maybe he's got connections.



Buiser
04.6.07 - 6:54 pm

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so this would be a ride starting from dude's house. and we tell the media about it have them show up too and basically our ride will exscort him to his office? I have a connect at abc if this is what is needed. how funny would that be.... a forced ride. lol. we shame him into riding...... great idea, funny too.



Roadblock
04.6.07 - 7:18 pm

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columnist Steve Lopez at the LA Times wrote this article bringing the transportation chief's hummer to light.



OverTheHill
04.6.07 - 10:04 pm

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Well, MTA is celebrating Bike To Work Week. Some info about it and the specific BTW Day in that week here.



Jeronimo
04.6.07 - 10:24 pm

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illuminateLA is hosting the "Bike to Work" pit stop at Hollywood and Western (Red Line Station) on May 17th from 7 am to 10 am.

I spoke to Jaime de la Vega's deputy about getting him to ride to or from the pit stop on that Thursday morning.

I also spoke to Garcetti's deputy and LaBonge's deputy and I'm going to give it a shot for getting San Antonio to make an appearance.

We'll have some swag, some sustenance, some noise and some press.

Anyone who is interested in either leading a ride to the pit stop and/or leading one from the pit stop to ???? is welcome to jump in.

Trickmilla and I, amongst others, chatted with the lead Bike Cop trainer and we might be able to get some Bike Cops to join in.

This would be a great day to demonstrate our passion for riding cooperatively, sharing space and creating community.

Give me a shout!





SoapBoxLA
04.7.07 - 1:01 am

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Hmm, if I bike everywhere, and don't have a job (school won't be in session at that time), on bike to work day, should I just bike to someone else's work for them? maybe four or five works, or hell jsut ride around all day to make up for all the people who don't ride normally?
...oh wait, that's what I do every day anyway.....
damn, i am so not going to be feeling like bike to work is a special day...

can we make it bikes only freeway day? that'd be fun as hell...



FuzzBeast
04.7.07 - 5:04 am

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hey guys sorry but this thread got way off topic. I would like to steer it back to the hit and run situation, I'm really hoping to find out how our rider is and get some info on the driver.. car type all that stuff. let's start a new thread for this traffic coordinator ride.



Roadblock
04.7.07 - 10:45 am

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Anyone catch the evening news? yet ANOTHER hit and run incident.
58 yr old rider IN A BIKE LANE was hit and left. fucking disgraceful.



monovsstereo
04.7.07 - 10:34 pm

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It's time to take to the streets. fuck this shit. we're riding this friday and we're gonna ride to every fucking spot where a hit and run has gone down. gimme locations post them up, I'm planning the route. we're going to mark every fucking spot as a reminder to the city.... fuck the dumb. the cops are overwhelmed, the legal system is a joke. people can fucking get away with attempted murder AND murder. fuck this.







Roadblock
04.8.07 - 2:03 am

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I'm with you roadblock.

How many people is it going to take to die by the hands of negligent and often times INTOXICATED drivers for action to be taken?

One hit and run is one too many. This shit must end now. And the only way it will end is we make noise. And lots of it.

On the dark century training ride, one of our riders almost gotten flattened by a metro bus as it cut into her lane and nearly sideswiped her. And this is the result of AGGRESSIVE DRIVERS. Then on my way home from downtown I had this stupid woman on a cellphone speed up in the lane to the left of me, switch into my lane and then proceed to make a right turn directly in front of me. When you're moving fast, this is a big deal. Especially since I don't like having to swerve into lanes to the left in heavy traffic to avoid going through someones back window.

How do you intend on marking the spots? Let's think big, and inconspicuous.



kyber
04.8.07 - 3:08 am

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signage, signage signage. BIG and conspicous signage was my thought. but even small candles, letters... anything that will alert passerby that a PERSON was hit and a COWARD ran away.





Roadblock
04.8.07 - 3:14 am

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Raising Hell. That'll work. The squeaky wheel gets the oil and we need to grease these road hogs up.

I'm beginning to wonder if having a "road warrior" style bicycle might discourage the "speed around and right turn in front of you" drivers if we just start running into their cars with our bicycles when they do that. Dents and scratches to the extensions of the weak personalities that are mainly defined through their vehicles might get a few more to wake up. I just scored an old Schwinn Varsity on eBay for $10 (local pickup) that would make a nice denter/scratcher.



Jeronimo
04.8.07 - 10:36 am

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Jeronimo I feel you but this isnt a raising hell ride this is a "come join us" ride. We won't be agitating anyone we will just be inviting people to ride with us, to come experience the fun and if we get a motorist to come out just once a month and experience the fun, they will look forward to the next month, and then the next month and then they will begin to notice bicycle riders on the streets and wonder if they too ride on MR.... and that's all we want is for a motorist to look for us and ride with us.... it's a party. Though this ride has serious meaning, it will still be fun because riding a bicycle is just plain fun. Bomb them with Butter.



Roadblock
04.8.07 - 12:10 pm

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In the sense of "raising hell", I meant making some noise. Hence the squeaky wheel comment. They can't hear you if you don't make any noise.



Jeronimo
04.8.07 - 2:18 pm

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For the record, I don't subscribe to the mob mentality, nor do I participate in it. I have witnessed some of this on MR rides (more in the past than in recent months) in a few forms and have admonished people for senseless acts of vandalism and littering. I save my angst for those who almost kill me with their vehicle while riding solo.



Jeronimo
04.8.07 - 2:23 pm

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In my post above, I meant to say conspicuous, and not inconspicuous. I was half asleep when I posted.





kyber
04.8.07 - 2:38 pm

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ride on Jeronimo

my favorite quote from the Seattle Ridazz

"This is a party not a protest."


hahah



Roadblock
04.8.07 - 4:14 pm

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ghost bikes...



420LaHaRR
04.8.07 - 6:36 pm

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"This is a party, not a protest."

Which is why I enjoy participating in Ridazz events. Bikes are fun and having fun on a bike with others who share that view in an urban setting on a weekend night is fantastic fun. Sending that message to anyone who will or can listen, along with the message that we are here to stay is important. Advocacy takes many forms and even turning a non-biking friend on to what great fun a bicycle can still be is a victory. Any victory is still a victory no matter how small it may seem.

That said, I'm going to go burn through some North OC neighborhoods now. Easter dinner at the mom's was great...almost too great...(burp).



Jeronimo
04.8.07 - 9:35 pm

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maybe I should change the name and focus of the ride.... to the "Bring a Motorist Ride"

we'll still be commemorating the hit and run spots..... but this will make it more proactive in getting motorists to recognize our pain and share our fun.



Roadblock
04.9.07 - 1:42 am

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UPDATE: We found out that the rider's name is Nathan. we know him well and he's been on more than a few rides it's just that names get lost in the group etc. SO.... the good news is he has medical insurance and he's doing good though sore and has missed work. as of today there have been no leads on the coward ass driver who took off in the late model silver acura 4 door sport sedan type vehicle.



Roadblock
04.23.07 - 12:49 am

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brandt-sorenson
04.23.07 - 12:56 am

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brandt-sorenson
04.23.07 - 12:58 am

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are you mad enough yet?



Roadblock
12.3.09 - 12:22 pm

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goosegoose
09.13.10 - 7:51 pm

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