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Thread started by digablesoul at 12.22.09 - 9:10 pm
Photo:Patrick Cates/Flickr
Can this guy be detained for taking pics? Was the sheriff being a dick? Was the photog being a dick by asserting his rights? Maybe the photog should've just answered the questions and that's it. \Watching this reminds me of our own ridazz standing up to the man. During a RWNN where BBD took a spill at the Arby's on Sunset.... RB stood up to a LAPD LT. that wanted him to erase a photo but he stood up and didn't back down. Barleye at the ALC last year stood up to the VA cops and was harassed and detained for taking pics on govt property while 1000's of other people were there, taking pics as well... to welcome their loved ones on the completion of the ALC. Or imachynna's pic of tall cans bike... and plenty of others. And since we're on the topic of our own ridazz and taking pics... I just wanted to give props to the photogs that contribute to the galleries here at MR. Major props to all that contribute to the galleries!!!
This person isn't a photographer, just a person with a camera. You know how I know? The first rule of photography is use common sense. Do you think it's a good idea to photograph a metro station, airport, or similar facilities without permission after 9/11? You have to be sensitive to the time we live in. People are very paranoid because no one wants another 9/11 to happen. So you go to you local metro station with your DSLR and argue with the police when they kick you out? Don't even talk about asserting your rights as a photographer, you don't have any in this situation. You sound like a little brat and deserve what you get. If you really want to shoot in a place like this you have either be very good and do it without being caught or get the proper permission.
This person isn't a cyclist, just a person with a bike. You know how I know? The first rule of cycling is use common sense. Do you think it's a good idea to ride a fixie, roadie, or similar bicycle without permission on public roads? You have to be sensitive to the time we live in. People are very angry with bikes because no one wants to wait another ten seconds in traffic. So you go to your local ride with your fixie and argue with the police when they kick you out of traffic lanes? Don't even talk about asserting your rights as a cyclist, you don't have any in this situation. You sound like a little brat and deserve what you get. If you really want to ride in a place like this you have either got to be very good and do it without being caught or get the proper permission.
Do you think it's a good idea to photograph a metro station, airport, or similar facilities without permission after 9/11?
Yup.
You have to be sensitive to the time we live in.
I'm acutely sensitive to the time we live in. It's a time of nearly unprecedented stupidity and mindlessness, and that's precisely why I think it's a good idea to take pictures of things that are already widely photographed and depicted--even, indeed especially, if stupid people think you shouldn't.
PC responding to a comment by Velocipede
12.23.09 - 1:31 am
I'm not just running my (virtual) mouth, by the way. I have been questioned for taking photographs in a New York subway station.
That's New York, New York, USA. In case anybody has missed the significance, that's the city in which some very, very big buildings were famously destroyed, putatively by the terrorists that everybody is afraid of.
This incident happened about five years ago. I was photographing an official sign in the station that I thought was funny because it contained a whopping grammatical error. A security guard immediately came up and asked my why I was taking photos in the subway station. I knew what he meant, but I said "Because that sign is incorrect! Look!" and launched into a lengthy explanation of the error and gave several examples of how the sentence might have been better worded, while trying really hard not to smirk. Finally the security guy just mumbled "You can't take pictures here" and walked off. It was funny.
I do think this particular photography activist or whatever he calls himself could have handled the situation much more amicably. You should never argue with a cop just for the sake of arguing. For example, Gylfie says "hey, why are you taking pictures in here?"
Possible good response:
"Oh, I was just admiring the art. I really like it that they put a different theme in each station. I wanted something to remember it by."
...or maybe...
"I'm so happy to see they're finally putting turnstiles in here, it gets my goat that so many freeloaders are riding the train for free on my dollar! I wanted to show my friends."
Guaranteed bad response:
"Oh, what I'm doing is not illegal. I can do this here, I'm an activist and I know the law, and I can do this here. Are you detaining me?"
Anyway, none of that excuses #2955 from being a liar and a jerk. Especially a liar.
Depends on what the activist wanted to happen. This may well have been an act of civil disobedience, where the idea is to get arrested or at least hassled, document it, and thereby generate public awareness of the injustice. Taking one for the team, as it were, with "the team" in this case being all mankind. I don't know enough about the story to say for sure, though.
PC responding to a comment by outerspace
12.23.09 - 2:17 am
The first rule of photography is use common sense.
That's funny. I thought that the first rule was to always make sure the lens cap is off. But anyway, common sense makes for shitty art (much like mindless obedience makes for shitty journalism). I'm glad that there are people out there who lack the kind of common sense you're describing here.
Don't even talk about asserting your rights as a photographer, you don't have any in this situation.
Sure, whatever you say, comma splice. How many times must it be explained that there's no law or rule saying that you can't take photos on the subway platform? That is the beginning and the end of the story, right there.
I've taken pictures on this platform before and had no problem with the cops. They just told me not to use my tripod.
If I was stuck with this guy I'd be 100% fucking annoyed that he was "creating" a problem.
However, by himself, armed with a recording camera and nothing but time to spend pursuing his cause he's 100% in the right ... even if he is acting pompus and dickish to the cop it was all within his rights.
If he wanted a simple interaction he could have said "I'm working on an art project" and the dumb cop would have let him be. If he was with others or on his way to work that would have been the approach to take.
However, its clear that the photographer, was more interested in making a statement about the current (police) state of the use of public space. And the right to take pictures in public. (if we ever let Staples buy the subway system he woudln't have that right down there).
Many cops still feel like they have unbridled power to stop and harass anybody for any reason. As long as popo wants to say they were worried that the person is working with some guy called Al Kayda, many feel liek they can do whatever they want.
This is what happens when 2 obstinate jerks butt heads. One is in power but the other one is in the right.
....
The dude is is video is a flawed hero
but a hero none the less.
Luckily the photographer didn't find himself in the same position as Oscar Grant.
plain in simple the cop doesn't know how to do his job.
he's not a TERROIST EXPERT
how can a cop detect a terroist
they're not trained for that
they are trained to obtain law here in our city.
we have many people with cameras in the subway system
we have people with cameras outsidee the federal building
we have people with cameras outside Union station
so what.
yeah we live in a hard time with 9/11
i love my country and all
but hey 9/11 happen a few years ago.
its in the past its history
we lost a lot of people that day
but i think we worry about whats happening now with maybe North Korea or Iran
but really how can a cop a L.A.S. determain who's a terroist or not.
If you are permitted to see something , then you are permitted to photograph it.
Nobody has the right to prevent you just like nobody can prevent you to talk about something you saw.
Photography is speech and speech is protected by 1st amendment.
Indeed, photographers. You do have that right, and it's worth preserving. NOW can you stop being such fucking douches with your little Coolpixes in people's faces at parties? Thanks
PC responding to a comment by marino
12.23.09 - 10:43 am
How do you think that guy could have dealt with the cop to make it more harmonious?
Or do you think that fat bald pig would have given him shit regardless?
Is it because he is an activist that he didn't act more "compliant" to get the cop off his back, or is there more to this than that?
I would just like to know what people think because I hate getting grilled by the cops for bullshit. Should you just be sychophantic in order to get out of there quickly and reduce harassment?
The last time I was detained by a cop, for no good reason, they tried to provoke me to get upset. I was just riding to work. I had not done anything illegal. Asking a million ridiculous questions to me, I found it very difficult to not be obviously irritated by it, but I fought the urge to reveal my frustration. I did a lot of smiling and nodding and acted like a nerd until they finally let me go when they realized they weren't going to get a reaction out of me that appeared subversive towards them. So, in my own way, I feel I had won over them, despite their power they had to hold me. But my rage was still so huge. I wonder if it really did show at all?
I was just wondering what real tactics people have when confronted in situations like these? And it happens a lot on group rides.
My way has been the real cordial act to just keep them away. Is there a better way than this?
In reality, If you don't end up being arrested or further having todefend yourself in a court of law. You came out unhurt. That is the best result you can have in regards to a police encounter..
With 1/2 a wit in your brain you could have fun messing with the minds of cops who unnecessarily stop and investigate you the whole time. You just risk the consequence of pissing the cop off so bad that he decides to take you in on something he makes up or planted or you.
What does the cop expect the response to be. You sit there and explain your just taking pictures anddoing nothing that will lead to terrorist action. You say it legal and you are not breaking any laws by photography. Or he gets his perpetrator and the person say "yes I'm taking pictures for al qida to blow this subways station up" If the person actually had some criminal intent with the photographs, does the cop actually think the person is going to come out and admit that? That is just bad policing.
sexy responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
12.23.09 - 12:38 pm
this makes me want to take pictures of people i see taking pictures of the cops just to "assert their rights" hehe, i wouldn't mind at all if someone took pictures of me doing so
You know, to avoid this type of resistance whatsoever, make sure not a soul is watching you.
After that, snap to the hearts content and only stop the second you sense that "heavy-air" presence.
See that's what I should have said. I think calling him a flawed hero is still a little generous, flawed amateur is more like it. Maybe I'm being a little harsh. Were his photos any good? Yes, we have the right to take pictures in public spaces, but the world isn't black and white like that (it's more like xpro chrome hehe). When you put your camera up to your eye you have to think of all of the possible uses and consequences for the images you make and this guy isn't doing that. If only the whole world were as friendly to photographers as Midnight Ridazz is... It just trips me out how people can stand up and argue with the police. That usually doesn't go very well for people of my complexion, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
I'm not even sure this guy was very interested in taking photos.
Making is point seemed more important. I mean if he wanted his pictures bad enough he would tried to avoid conflict with the cops rather than provoke it. So he could get his pix.
The quality of his picture taking is 100% not at issue here. What is at issue is what people are allowed to do in public spaces. And to the degree he seems intent on defending that right. I applaud him.
This guy would love nothing more than for this thing to go to trial and eventually end at the supreme court ... possibly even challenging the PATRIOT ACT.
Artistic or photographic talent has nothing to do with this.
One does not have to appreciate the musical stylings of 2 Live Crew to appreciate the fact that they stood up to fight for the right of parody, free speech and free expression that much less well-heeled bands (ie Negativland) couldn't afford.
By the same token assuming this guy (is a middle class white boy that) has never feared getting a beat down from the cops, puts him in a privileged position to sass and provoke the cops when they are being overbearing and act in a way that would stifle the free-living and free expression of others, who are censoring themselves to avoid having to deal with the cops at all.
Sorry, I can't (don't want to) watch your video, but I hope it helps explain what you said. You can't seriously believe that his whining in the metro station is going to change the patriot act. All I know is that amateur behavior like that makes it harder for me to do my job. It's like when a cyclist does something that makes a motorist mad, then the motorist has a bad attitude towards other cyclists. I would love to discuss racism with you, but not over the internet. Maybe I'll see you on a ride, look for a tall, skinny, black guy.
Nothing too insightful on the video. If you haven't heard of 2LiveCrew ... its a bit to much to get into right now.
As far as despising people who I don't want to be lumped with, I think its a counterproductive venture. I save my derision for people who make judgments based on people's appearance or station in life over their actions and character.
Yes this guy acts douchey, but by recording this he points to an important fact, that he should not have been harassed by the cops in the first place for taking pictures. period.
If his perfoamnce gets this point across to the leadership in the LAPD and this cop in general think the video and his actions do more good than bad.
9 out of 10 people or even 99 out of 100 people will just act professional and answer the cops questions all nice and not have a conflict. Cops in general, like to be an unquestioned authority. if you let them play that role they will usually leave you alone.
Most of us have somewhere to be so thats what we do.
But this one crazy fool decided to say wait. Even though this might be an inconvenience he decided to speak up (or rather withhold info) for what was right.
People have done this throughout history. Its how we get change.
But, this wasn't even "civil disobedience". The guy was 100% within the law.
It was obvious to the cops that he's not a terrorist but they decided to fuck with him because they didn't like his attitude.
The attitude that in a free society people should not be complied when they are acting safely and lawfully.
In short, in America everybody has the right to be a douche!
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Photo:Patrick Cates/Flickr
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