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not to be a jerk about it, but all the people I know who grew up in these areas do not consider these areas as "Eastside/East LA/East" and all the people who I know who grew up east of the river get offended when these areas are referred to as such.
its all relative.
'la ciengaga' is the dividing line'
like we are all west coast but we are east in the city.
downtown was the central la., then boyle highst is east
and the coast west.
Anything east of La Cienega gets a little bit angrier the farther east you go.
This includes pedestrians, drivers, businesses, and even cyclists. West of La Cienega (esp West of Robertson) there is nothing but crazy bike love & happiness.
I was thinking the same thing. it is not the east side untill you cross the river. that whole thing started when hipsters started Gentrify echo park and silverlake.
I live in what you say is properly termed "Central" LA. It just seems that all the rides that label themselves "east side" are w/in a few miles of my house, where as "west side" rides are like 12.
I like you bro, but were you being serious? Have you been to Santa Monica? Very naive, and if I lived east La Cienega I'd be kinda pissed but hey Im just a Valley boy
Montebello and all these other areas well, East of the river could just be considered, run-in, suburban wasteland, no matter how people want to slice it.
It was cool back when there seemed to be a 2-10 mile space of nothingness between municipalities.
Now that boundaries are unclear to everyone, why even bother putting the "You are now entering < insert city name here > "?
Hell, the Victor Valley used to be spaced out, but with all the uncontrolled, tract-building that when on up here, it's now 2-5 miles of cookie-cutters, and a small section of shops, Wal Marts, and shit like that.
Luckily, when I was OTR, I ran into other communities in other states that retained that true, small-town format.
Ohio, Indiana, Tennessee, jonnyboy and larsen could probably vouch for that.
RURAL LIVING FTW!!!!!!
Oh, and Oak Hills remains rural due to neighborhood council telling developers to "get fucked".
The gentrification is all but inevitable. the least we can do as ridazz is acknowledge the existence of those who live in East LA who all of a sudden find out people who never lived there are now claiming it in some shape or form.
I wasn't trying to place demarcations here. Boundries change as cultural/socio/economic/political demographics change. i was just bring something to light and for people to think about.
when i went to school at UCLA many years ago and took my first Urban Geography class, the first assignment was to draw a map of LA. almost all of the class drew it only to downtown and considered that to be East LA. So for those who know better, great. I'm just trying to inform those that don't.
"I would hate to be taken seriously. Serious people are always so grim and uptight that they make me want to dance naked on the lawn playing a flute. Of course, as Mavis says in the first volume of the trilogy, nothing is true unless it makes you laugh, but you don't really understand it until it makes you cry. The basic situation of humanity is both tragic and comic, since we are all domesticated apes with marvelous 30-billion-cell brains, which we seldom use efficiently because of domination by the older mammalian parts of the back brain. I mean, we're living on the Planet of the Apes, man. Is that funny or serious? It depends on how broad your sense of humor is, I guess."
Time to harken up the whole, "What's the heart of the Inland Empire" debate, as well as "What's the High Desert?"
onelessfixie claims Riverside should be the heart of the IE, when I myself think that Riverside is too, far south and not central to the IE in the literal sense.
But, then again, I'm also going to reveal my new belief that no one really gives a shit about people living near the Foothills, or anywhere near the 210/15 split for that matter.
As for the desert, I mention "High Desert" to some people on rides and they automatically think, "Lancaster" or "Palmdale".
I must constantly remind people that it is on the way to Vegas, 10 East, to 15 fucking North!!!
I don't know about anyone else, but you got to be a complete smack-tard to take the 210->14->138->395->58->15 to get to Vegas.
but seriously, anyone who calls downtown/EP/SL 'East LA' needs a geography lesson. BUT, of what is considered "LA proper", ie, the city + significant surrounding independent municipalities, these aforementioned gentrified neighborhoods are DEFINITELY on the "East side" of the "city center", ie, mid-wilshire.
Hence, I often refer to my neighborhood as being on the east side, and i will continue to, because i feel that DTLA/echo park/silver lake is a lot more like highland park and lincoln heights than it is like WeHo, west la, culver city, century city et al.
"Hence, I often refer to my neighborhood as being on the east side, and i will continue to, because i feel that DTLA/echo park/silver lake is a lot more like highland park and lincoln heights than it is like WeHo, west la, culver city, century city et al."
Yes you can continue to believe that. tell that to the folks who spend 15 bucks on scrambled eggs on Sunset Blvd in Silverlake.
And yes +1 for Chinatown in downtown. oversight on my end.
This is a funny topic really cause its so time consuming for something so trivial however, anything west of west covina is the west side. There that settles it.
i dont give a shit. to me downtown is downtown (if you can see the bldgs and they still look pretty tall... yep, you're in downtown) i'll continue to call highland park, echo park the east side (not to be confused with east LA - where all the cholos live, lol) and anything on the other side of la cienega the west side. as for the valley... well there's not much debate there. we're one big giant happy family.
So the westside/eastside divide is based on where you can pay too much for food? In that case you should take a good hard look at some new places in highland park/eagle rock, cause they're across the river but lookin' mighty upscale lately...and by then you're all the way to pasadena...
I understand your original intent is a rail against gentrification, so i'm with ya, but if we extend this logic a little further it just becomes silly.
yah, i'm not here to give anyone an identity crisis. be what you want to be. That's what Barack told himself.
i myself have to admit that i'm part of that gentrification. i'm for it as long as it gets hospitals to stop dropping off their patients in the middle of nowhere and if it gets people to stop shitting on themselves in the streets. i'm not for it if it people totally ignore and don't acknowledge where they have just moved to.
and i'm totally for people from all walks of life getting together on a bike and discovering all parts of LA.
"This is a funny topic really cause its so time consuming for something so trivial however, anything west of west covina is the west side. There that settles it." -Roadblock
LOL, I grew up in West Covina, so everything does feel pretty west side to me now. Every side is a west side!!
But seriously though, we need to start thinking beyond sides. That's how we end up with things like the Prop 8 election map becoming so geographically divided.
And if you're going to rail against gentrification, you may want to look into the history of the neighborhoods you're talkign about.
Silver Lake has always been a fairly well to do neighborhood, and Echo Park, well, up until the late 70's early 80's was very similar to what it is now, more upscale even, hell, Hollywood started there, Echo Park was a long standing bohemian neighborhood, and was typically LA's equivalent to the Village in New York, until the 80's it then became a rough and tumble neighborhood for a while, but has since reversed itself to begin to return to the way it used to be.
Many of LA's neighborhoods have a long fluid history, up until the late 70's MacArthur Park was primarily Jewish (there's a reason Langers is there, and the reason the attempt to rename it Central America Town failed), Echo Park was at one time considered a Socialist haven, Silver Lake was once LA's major gay neighborhood (and still retains some of that), Pershing Square downtown used to be a parking lot, then a bamboo forest as a park, and now a parking lot topped with a concrete ugly has hell no one wants to hang out there park, and the top of Bunker Hill used to be a residential district covered in Historic Victorian homes that had mostly been converted into low rent boarding houses. And most of this is inside your parents or even your lifetime.
Just because a neighborhood in LA has been the way it is for a few years, doesnt mean it has always been that way. I wouldn't say Echo Park is beign gentrified, I'd say it is returning to the way it was.
I agree with everything in your last post sciencefriction...I am also technically part of DTLA's gentrification, even though i'm still far below the median income as of 2007.
I just love debating stuff like this in an academic sense...see you tonight!!!
Hmm to continue what I wrote above, downtown, yeah, I'd say this is closer to the standard term of gentrification, although still not really gentrification, as gentrification implies the displacement of people with less money from the homes being renovated, as most of downtown was, until very recently, not residential (barring things like SRO's) and most of the condos and lofts being built are not previously resedential buildings, this does sort of clash against the definition, however, there is the aspect of the homeless, who for many, many years (I'd argue since bunker hill was leveled in the late 60's) were downtown's primary residents, and they are being driven out, so I guess the term could be played that way, particularly since many of the homes in dtla are beyond the scope (economically) of the majority of the population.
There is a difference between renewal and gentrification. DTLA lies on a line between the two, edging closer to gentrification, Echo Park on the other hand I would say is renewal.
hey yall, we all know HOLLYWOOD is the epicenter of LA... East Hollywood and BEYOND is EAST! "Downtown" is just some like, place where some tall buildings are. Aren't they calling that area SOUTH PARK or osmething???
I was born in at the Good Samaritan on Wilshire. My parents lived on Beverly off of Rampart, then moved to "East" Hollywood, just off of Gower. Then 1973 they moved to Eagle Rock. I've lived there all my life. I didn't know the difference between the Valley and the "West Side" for a long time. They were all "West" to me. When I worked in Culver City I realized there was a definite distinction from the Westside & Eastside (more so if you include the Valleys). It all became a blur around Hollywood, Los Feliz & Silverlake. By the time you get to Echo Park, Atwater, Glassel Park, Eagle Rock, Highland Park or Downtown you KNEW you were some place different. This was about 6 or 7 years ago. Now it's all different, the blur includes all those areas now. It trips me out.
The West-siders started it, by considering me & my 213/323 area code "weird". I remember when it was ALL 213.
So yeah. It's all stupid, but I blame the West-siders for starting all the bullshit and perpetuating the differences and creating the divide.
I used to spend all kinds of time in Santa Monica & Venice, thinking it was all part of LA, but just on the ocean. Now I have to be reminded, all the time, that I am in the Westside. It's lame. Most of you fuckers that tout your whole "West-sided-ness" are transplants anyway, and not even from California.
I have certain gripes about Santa Monica but I like it here. I grew up in west covina, then lived by LAX during college. The police here are lame especially, but I always feel much safer riding my bike here then any part of Los Angeles. May be some uppity folks here too that are annoying, but very socially liberal. Santa Monica voted no on prop 8 by 78%, one of the most unified cities against it in the county.
When the train finally connects the west side again, I think it will bring down a lot of barriers.
OR
how about we stop giving a shit where people are from (it's not somehting you choose), or even where they live now, and just realize that neighborhoods change, cities change, and whatever, that shit happens, so let's just agree that we have what we have right now, and go with that.
If people never move from place to place the human race would be in a world of problems.... and we'd all be living in africa somewhere.
"Santa Monica voted no on prop 8 by 78%, one of the most unified cities against it in the county."
That may be so but there's not much else liberal about Santa Monica these days. It's like they're fine voting on social issues that effect everyone and that don't have much personal impact but when it comes to local issues like sharing open space, transportation, allowing for individualism, and encouraging F.U.N. they're the biggest fascist hypocritical nimbys on the planet.
"when it comes to local issues like sharing open space, transportation, allowing for individualism, and encouraging F.U.N. they're the biggest fascist hypocritical nimbys on the planet. " in regards Santa Monica
The SMPD is hands down full of crap, as is the mayor for letting them get away with such nonsense. There are also certain areas where residents are really up tight and they encourage over use of SMPD force. However I still think it's a great place with a lot of potential. The fact that the glow festival was allowed to happen, and the cops were ordered to be chill, as in allowing public drug use to happen on the beach while they looked the other way, was freaking pretty amazing. The glow festival it self was lacking in a lot of ways, but it was a 1.0 or a new direction that we should be encouraging.
Prop T which would have allowed for much tighter control of development that the nimbdy crowd really wanted, failed by a healthy margin in favor of the slow but publicly discussed LUCE process. On transportation issues they voted for measure R in strong numbers, the Big Blue Bus is one of the most extensive bus networks outside of Metro, and there are more connecting bike lanes here then just about anywhere I have seen in LA. Is there for room for a whole lot of improvement, yes. Is it some kind of nimby hell hole with nothing but boring automobile centric development, no. The nimby crowd in Santa Monica is a loud and influential bunch of mostly yuppy old people, but that is not nessisarily representative of Santa Monica as whole, and we need to start voicing the direction we want the city to be going.
If you really want a city to pick on for being anti fun and alternative transit , try Beverly Hills. The bike lane that feeds into it dies immediately as it touches the border, only to resume on the other side. Their strong vocal opposition to the west side subway (which they only now support) was one of the reasons the west side is currently disconnected from the train network. They have numerous restrictions against sound levels and other various things that might be considered fun, and they have been known to have a blame the cyclist tendency in confrontations with other vehicles. As a cyclist in Santa Monica I feel like a normal part of the system. When I ride through Beverly Hills as I often due to get to Hollywood, I can almost feel the anti bike vibe breathing out of the city.
That being said, Santa Monica has it's fair share of things to point out and say that sucks, the critical mass issue is certainly one. However I think the negatives are often exaggerated and the positives taken for granted.
I live in East LA and its funny to hear all you white boys talk about East Side/East LA like if you know the place... grow a dick and some balls and cross the bridge.... I doubt any of you dickless !@#$?s will even ride your bike in these neighborhoods
1. WHEREAS, The Eastside, in all absolute terms, is east, the Militant repeats, east of the Los Angeles River.
2. WHEREAS, The Westside, for all intents and purposes, is west of La Cienega Blvd (yes, the Militant realizes there are various self-defined variations on this, like the 405, or La Brea or even Lincoln Blvd, but just like concepts like "racism," we will go absolutely nowhere on the subject unless we have a consensus on the definition of the word, so the Militant chooses to use the general dividing line between 323- and 310- dom). There it is, take it.
3. THEREFORE, west of the Los Angeles River is NOT "The Westside" nor is east of La Cienega Blvd "The Eastside." There is no dividing line between the two. You cannot be on the Westside and throw crap across the street to the "Eastside." You cannot be on the Eastside and hock a loogie across the street to the Westside. You cannot jump between Westside and Eastside in a precisely-located game of hopscotch. Stop thinking binary here.
4. WHEREAS, there is a region between The Eastside and The Westside (The crowd silences, the earth quakes, the veil of the temple is torn in two).
5. WHEREAS, The region between The Eastside and The Westside is the center of the city.
6. THEREFORE, those of you transies who love to spout, "L.A. has no center," better go download Los Angeles Geography 3.0 - because you need an upgrade.
I live in East LA and its funny to hear all you white boys talk about East Side/East LA like if you know the place... grow a dick and some balls and cross the bridge.... I doubt any of you dickless !@#$?s will even ride your bike in these neighborhoods
Jartazz
11.13.08 - 2:26 am
reply
you sound real tough ON THE INTERNET. I guess you can judge peoples color by the way they type!
I live in East LA and its funny to hear all you white boys talk about East Side/East LA like if you know the place... grow a dick and some balls and cross the bridge.... I doubt any of you dickless !@#$?s will even ride your bike in these neighborhoods.
And this thread is kinda retarded, too. It completely depends on what we're basing our definitions on, and in what context. Historically, areas much further west than you would expect were referred to as the eastside (i.e., even further west than La Brea), by city planners. Why? I don't remember. If you absolutely need a citation, I can find it.
i started this thread. i used to care, but i don't care anymore. most topics on this board are BS anyways, so I don't understand all the animosity. anyways...
anyways, another factoid:
streets west of main street are labeled W 1st, W 2nd st, etc.
streets east of main street are labeled E 1st, E 2nd, etc.
People get really butt hurt about these types of arguments because these are actually thinly disguised posturing over who gets to claim area-associated "street cred" and everyone knows that the east side is where street cred lives in Los Angeles.
However, for the scope of this forum topic the final fuckin sayso is that the Eastside includes Silverlake and echo park because the "center" of LA in terms of bike riding culture has moved from pioneer chicken in echo park to the highland/hollywood area due to the enormous activity happening on the west side nowadays. So, until East LA steps up to the plate and is organizing as many rides as West LA and central LA and the eastside, then East LA will be a non factor. In fact that area might as well be northwest sanbernadino for all matters bicycle until they experience an enlightenment and ride in large group party rides. Until that happens, East LA will remain that far far east land that MR dips into semi frequently for a look see. So all you people who live beyond the east side out there in East LA... get active and claim your bicycle street cred...
i swear, if i were to get in a plane and fly westward... you know towards santa monica, over the pacific ocean, i'd get to china, japan.... etc.
now why are they considered east when they're a whole lot closer to us going westward instead?
a trip to japan is like 18 hours or some shit... flying the conventional way. and i know about some rules and regulations and how planes from the U.S. can't go west instead (time frame would be cut by more than half) because of already set flight patterns and routes.
like roadblock said... if East LA wants to be relevant then you guys need to come on out and ride and party with us. make it happen.
yeayeayeayea! i love that - VOLTRON is the way to go!
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Funny how its hipsters and their ilk, in their search for 'authenticity', are the ones clamoring for street cred by incorrectly claiming Eastside.
Just like they will fall out of fashion when a TV about hipster life airs, so will this debate end and us true east of the LA river folks will barely remember this blip of non-history.
As for this forum being able to claim eastside based on bike activity? wow! I knew we had a good party going but having the power to change historical and cultural demarcations based on our bike riding starting point, I guess MR is bigger badder than I ever imagined. what's next MR re-names the 2nd street tunnel?
BTW East LA has a lot of bike activity, if you are ever here during the day you will see a lot of men on bikes commuting. It may not be a party but it is bike activity. These peeps just do it to get around not as a statement or to create some sense of belonging or have culture. We have culture, and it doesn't need attachments or materials to prove it. We learn it from our parents and pass it to our kids.
This whole argument is just another excuse to rail against transplants or "hipsters" or whomever. It's not like this is a new thing, either. Even back in 2005, I recall people calling Echo Park/Silverlake the "East Side." Just to make sure I wasn't imagining this, I did a quick search of the email archives and found the earliest example I could:
----------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:24:30 -0700
To: santamonicacriticalmass@yahoogroups.com
From: Eddie Lopez Subject: RE: Ride of Silence to honor fallen cyc lists
Any east sidazz gonna' go to this. By east side I mean K-TOWN, ECHO PARK and the likes...
Holla!
----------------------------------
So there you have it. Everybody blame Gopez, because that guy hasn't gotten enough shit today.
I kid.
The point is, people have been using "East Side" to differentiate from the "West Side" for years, even independently of MR and the westward expansion of the bike culture. They don't do it to claim street cred or authenticity or some such territorial bullshit. They do it out of convenience, or because that's what everyone else does. If it's understood within a group that "East Side" is shorthand for Echo Park or Downtown, then people will keep using that shorthand. I look forward to the day when more rides start in East LA, so Echo Park can just go back to being "Echo Park."
If the newbz had taken the time to read the entire thread they would have read that we've already gone through all this. We are now just perpetuating the same rhetoric. Give it up.
that dated e-mail just goes to show how long "some of us" have been around in this "scene" by the way i hate the fucking word scene. We were a community and now it is reffered to by "the clicky" as "the scene." COMMUNITY, i still like to think of myself and a obviously a select few with the same mentality as a community. we were a movement too, what happened? the politics, the struggle and the battle for a better bicycling los angeles (what seemed to be and used to be our priorities) seem to be getting lost in "the scene."
as far as the geographical location and sectors that determine what exactly this is (echo park,silverlake, k-town and mid-wilshire)? well it's safe and appropriate to call it MID-CITY as a whole. wilshire stretches from the center (el centro en español is commonly referred to in many latin american cities as DOWNTOWN) to the coast (the west coast). the sector of town i live in is known as MWK (mid-wilshire/koreatown). It is in the middle of everything, it's mid-town, therefore MID-CITY. one of the reasons i picked that as a name for our WPH ALL-CITY RACE 2 team (Team "MID-CITY MAYHEM"). i guess i was wrong in calling these sectors EASSSIDE on that e-mail back in 2005, but you know what i meant. why is this east side claim so controversial. Are East L.A.'ers feeling robbed of their more appropiate title or name. Is east only east of DTLA, the L.A. RIVER? So what would be appropriate? 3 sections? MID-CITY/MID TOWN, and the WEST SIDE? what about LONG BEACH, SAN PEDRO, etc.?
From West to East
Beach to the 405 : WESTSIDE
Then
West LA, Beverly Hills, Culver City,
Then
West Hollywood, Hollywood to Vermont
Then
Vermont to 110 FWY (and beyond?): EASTSIDE
110 FWY to the river: Downtown
River to the 710 FWY: East LA
710 Fwy to the 57 FWY: San Gabriel Valley.
BTW East LA has a lot of bike activity, if you are ever here during the day you will see a lot of men on bikes commuting. It may not be a party but it is bike activity. These peeps just do it to get around not as a statement or to create some sense of belonging or have culture. We have culture, and it doesn't need attachments or materials to prove it. We learn it from our parents and pass it to our kids.
i agree completely with this statement. there is a lot of bike activity, but people do it to get around. though im sure there are some that do it for recreation, but for the most part, on this side, its truly getting from point A to point B. +10 on the last sentence
[Not these guys up here.
Aside from my reluctance to kit out, I'm not too fond of a former, Engrish teacher trying to run this ride.
Myself and his "smart-ass" almost duked it out last time I showed up.
It was mainly over people getting dropped, and him saying they were "slow-learners". ]
--so this pompous roadie like many others has discouraged you from every riding in this way and getting all spandexed out? i can understand. im gonna get a roadbike built again soon in 09. im a nice guy. i'll through some of these rides. i will put checkpoints and wait at them for all to catch up. i need to get back in shape for that style of riding too so it will be moderate to advanced as far as my performance and that of some others in the ride goes. we'll wait for you slow learners. so start looking into some roadbikes, saddle bags for your tools water bottles (polar- the best out there) and of course some lycra and padded bike spandex shorts.
-->
Ridazz Roulette!
Actually forget this thread. We all live in Aztlan, including myself, the little, brown, angry chinito. See you all at the Mosey.
any eastside cats or kittens up for a this rroute? lets get this ball rolling
LOL at this whole thread.