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Thread Box:
North Korea
Thread started by Joe Borfo at 06.14.09 - 7:25 pm

We're fucked.

reply




http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/world/asia/15kim.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

June 15, 2009
N. Korean Heir Apparent Remains Mystery to West
By CHOE SANG-HUN and MARTIN FACKLER

SEOUL, South Korea — There is only one photograph available outside North Korea thought to be that of the man South Korean officials believe will inherit the world’s most unpredictable regime, one that is armed with nuclear weapons. In that picture, the man, Kim Jong-un, a son of the ailing North Korean leader, Kim Jong-il, is an 11-year-old.

“When Prince Jong-un shook hands with me, he fixed me with a vicious look,” Kim Jong-il’s former Japanese sushi chef wrote in a 2003 memoir describing his first encounter with the boy, then 7, dressed in a military uniform and known as a “prince” among his father’s aides. “I still cannot forget the look in his eyes. It seemed to say, ‘This is a despicable Japanese.’ ”

The chef, who goes by the pen name Kenji Fujimoto, said in an interview that as a teenager, Kim Jong-un was already his father’s favorite and “looked just like him.”

The lone photo and Mr. Fujimoto’s memories form part of the few precious strands of information analysts and intelligence officials in South Korea and Washington rely on as they struggle to put together a dossier on Kim Jong-un, the youngest and least-known of Kim Jong-il’s three sons.

They describe Kim Jong-un as a man in his mid-20s, of medium height, overweight and prone to high blood pressure and suffering from diabetes, and with character traits similar to his father’s.

“We picture a charismatic young man, authoritarian, politically astute and precocious and ambitious,” said Cheong Seong-chang, a researcher at the Sejong Institute, near Seoul. “We picture Little Kim Jong-il.”

The question of who will succeed Kim Jong-il has grown in importance since he was reported to have suffered a stroke in August. Last week, South Korean news reports, lawmakers and analysts who have access to intelligence assessments said that Mr. Kim, 67, had decided to hand over the reins to Kim Jong-un while North Korean generals, ruling party officials and diplomats abroad were all pledging fealty to the son.

But the walls of secrecy that surround North Korean leaders make the guessing about who is in and who is out in the succession game notoriously difficult. Indeed, the dearth of information about Kim Jong-un speaks volumes about how little the world knows about North Korea itself.

Intelligence officials acknowledge that much of what they have gleaned is little more than conjecture, based on secondhand information from sources inside North Korea but not independently verified.

The North Korean media have never shown images of Kim Jong-un in public or mentioned him by name, said Kim Sang-kook, a senior North Korea analyst at the Unification Ministry in Seoul.

Until Mr. Fujimoto released the photo to the South Korean television network KBS in February, there had been no picture at all of the son. The chef said he was given the picture shortly before he fled to Japan in 2001. Mr. Fujimoto and most analysts say the son was born on Jan. 8, 1983, but others insist that he was born in 1984.

Kim Jong-il apprenticed at important party and military posts for more than 20 years before officially assuming power after the death of his father, Kim Il-sung, in 1994. He appeared with his father in mass gatherings, and his photos decorated the walls of government buildings beside his father’s. No such early grooming has been reported for Kim Jong-un.

Now, Kim Jong-il’s failing health is compelling Mr. Kim to begin a crash program to present his son as the next leader. But installing an untested young man at the top of a belligerent regime where septuagenarian veterans of political machinations jockey for power raises many questions.

“We know almost nothing about the young man,” said Andrei Lankov, a Russian-born North Korea specialist at Kookmin University in Seoul. “Very young, without any administrative experience to speak of, and without his own coterie — he had not had time to create a power base. He will be an obedient puppet in the hands of people who lobbied for this decision. Who are these people? I have no idea, to be frank.”

The power elite will support another hereditary succession, to keep the peace, some analysts say. But “whoever the new leader is, it will be a collective leadership in name or actuality,” said Bruce Klingner at the Heritage Foundation, who has worked as a Korea analyst at the Central Intelligence Agency and the Defense Intelligence Agency.

Kim Jong-il had at least five children with three women. Sung Hae-rim, a movie star, gave birth to Kim Jong-nam, now 38. She became estranged from Kim Jong-il after he married Kim Young-sook, who gave birth to one daughter (some say two) but no son.

Then Mr. Kim fell for Ko Young-hee, the prima donna of North Korea’s premier opera, who was born in Japan and emigrated to the North in the 1960s. She had two sons — Kim Jong-chol, now 28, and Kim Jong-un — and a daughter, Kim Yeo-jong, 22. Until Ms. Ko died of breast cancer in 2004, she was Mr. Kim’s de facto first lady and a fierce campaigner for her sons.

With no mother to promote him to his father, Kim Jong-nam scuttled what remote chance he had of succession when he was caught and deported while sneaking into Japan on a fake passport in 2001. He was headed for Tokyo Disneyland.

The middle son, Kim Jong-chol, attended the International School of Berne in Switzerland in the 1990s under the pseudonym Pak Chol, according to analysts and journalists in Seoul, as well as Mr. Fujimoto — though other analysts dispute these accounts. He was said to be a fan of Michael Jordan, Eric Clapton and Keanu Reeves. Mr. Fujimoto wrote that Ms. Ko often took her sons on trips to Europe and Tokyo Disneyland, and that Kim Jong-un learned English.

Analysts are divided over whether Kim Jong-un also attended the school in Switzerland. They say he was enrolled from 2002 to 2007 in the Kim Il-sung Military University, a leading officer-training school in Pyongyang, the capital, but was taught at home. The son, these accounts say, is about 5 feet 9 inches tall and weighs more than 200 pounds.

Mr. Fujimoto said in an interview that the young man he last saw in 2001 was stocky and athletic but not fat. He said Kim Jong-il dismissed Kim Jong-chol as “girlish” but openly complimented Kim Jong-un, saying, “That boy is like me.”

The sons lived a life few North Koreans could imagine: swimming pools, water fountains, bowling alleys, billiard rooms, inline skating tracks, a beach, Jet Skis and horses.

An episode relayed by Mr. Fujimoto and often cited by analysts to illustrate Kim Jong-un’s sequestered existence, if not his leadership qualities, took place several years ago when the chef and Kim Jong-un were smoking a cigarette in a car. Mr. Kim, then 18, looked into the distance and, according to the chef’s account, said: “We are here, playing basketball, riding horses, riding Jet Skis, having fun together. But what of the lives of the average people?”

Choe Sang-hun reported from Seoul, and Martin Fackler from Tokyo.



JB
06.14.09 - 7:42 pm

reply


HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! wow.

It's like RISK:

The blue player won North America in 2000 but lost it in 2008 only to take over the eastside of Asia.

He's pissed.

And the red player thinks that after his big win in 2008 he has the balls to keep his armies growing only in the southwestern part of Asia.

We're fucked. Crossing fingers in the hope that green player comes back from his bathroom break.



onemorefixie
06.14.09 - 10:06 pm

reply


More of the same? Some change I am not aware of.




sus
06.15.09 - 12:39 am

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Well, in the case of shit flying, perhaps we'll see a call for secession.





bentstrider
06.15.09 - 6:31 am

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what the media refuses to tell, is the the US and coalition frequently raid NK commercial ships under the guise of searching for arms. of course not many of NK's ships are actually transporting arms they are transporting other needed resources from it's limited trading partners. this has been going on for YEARS. its an attack on NK's sovereignty. If it happened to us (pirates anyone?) the whole country would be up in arms. So, only the west gets to ship arms? from NK's point of view it's quite unfair. so, of course they are going to do what they can to even the playing field. which means get nukes. the funny part is that even if NK got nukes, they would never attack the US or SK or anyone. Mutually assured destruction keeps them (and the US) in check against nuclear powered countries....



Roadblock
06.15.09 - 10:10 am

reply






Joe Borfo
06.15.09 - 10:53 am

reply


North Korea gots you covered



randyadamIII
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
06.17.09 - 6:17 pm

reply


Mutually assured destruction keeps them (and the US) in check against nuclear powered countries....


what if a fabled finger slips?



Aqueous Atom
responding to a comment by Roadblock
06.17.09 - 8:25 pm

reply


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-clinton-korea5-2009aug05,0,7555243.story

Imprisoned reporters Euna Lee and Laura Ling will be released during the visit of former President Clinton, according to the Associated Press, which says the move was announced by North Korean media.



barleye
responding to a comment by Roadblock
08.4.09 - 1:04 pm

reply


I'm so relieved!



Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by barleye
08.4.09 - 1:20 pm

reply


That goes to show you that a simple apology can do wonders. (even if it is bullshit)

Consider that in a road rage confrontation.

Or is your "Honor" more important?.. Ninja Plz.



Joe Borfo
08.4.09 - 1:24 pm

reply


Who cares about DPRK's sovereignty it's an autocratic shit hole held back nearly a century so it's leadership can maintain control over the powerless masses.

It is literally as close to a replication of 1984's society as there is. In my opinion anyone with any leanings towards free thought, whether Anarchist or Republican should be aghast with DPRK.

If you think only the West is transporting arms you would be, completely incorrect What is the most ubiquitous assault rifle on the planet, and what are it's countries of origin?



franz
responding to a comment by Roadblock
08.4.09 - 2:33 pm

reply


Franz, you base your opinion on what, exactly? Have you ever been to North Korea? Have you ever interacted with anyone who has lived there?



vladster
responding to a comment by franz
08.4.09 - 2:48 pm

reply


thats not really too fair... in that case was Roadblock on the ships when they violated NK's sovereignty?

Your knowledge of the world outside of your local and immediate experiences is dictated by the media (whether you read yahoo or chomsky). How do you know anything you read happened as noted?



md2
responding to a comment by vladster
08.4.09 - 2:55 pm

reply


North Korea, albeit all of Korea, was invaded in the late 1800's by Imperial Japan. In 1905 Japan annexed Korea as a colony. Thereby eliminating the nations sovereignty. The United States and other Western nations agreed to recognize Japan's rule over Korea, since they had colonies of their own in Asia (The US had the Philippines, Britain had Hong Kong and Singapore, France had Indochina ie Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia).

Kim Jong il's father, Kim il Sung fled with his parents from Japanese-controlled Korea to Manchuria, China...which was invaded by Imperial Japan in the 1920's. Kim il Sung was 14 years old attending a Chinese school, when he met with other Koreans and wrote about liberating their country. Kim was imprisoned by the Japanese authorities at 15 yrs old. He was released at 16 and fled to the mountainous region of North Korea to join the insurgent rebels fighting the Japanese. The Korean insurgents pleaded with England, France, and the US for help. No one helped them, except Russia.

In the last days of WWII, Russian troops, along with Korean fighters including Kim il Sung, liberated Japanese-controlled Northern Korea. By agreement with the Allies, Russian-backed Korean fighters could not liberate anything south of the 38th parallel. South Korea would be occupied by the US.

Soon after the war, Russian soldiers left North Korea. Leaving the country to WWII hero Kim il Sung to rule. South Korea was ruled by a US appointed American-educated Korean, Sigmund Rhee. Who ended up killing anyone and everyone who opposed him. US soldiers remained in South Korea, putting many of those Koreans who had collaborated with the Japanese in charge of the South Korean government. A slap in the face to Koreans who fought and died fighting the Japanese.

Kim il Sung invaded US-occupied South Korea, in part to free the country of foreigners and punish those who had worked for the Japanese colonial government.

To this day, 38,000 US troops remain on South Korean soil. No foreign troops are stationed in North Korea.

The problems in North Korea are not black and white or good and evil. There is a long and tragic history that most Americans are unaware of. Kim Jong il is not his father, he can never be the WWII hero or the charismatic guerrilla commander. He may not be the best leader, kind of like Bush, but he is their leader until he dies (which will happen in couple of years since he has pancreatic cancer).

We shouldn't be interfering with their right to exist, regardless of whether we like their form of government or not. Imperialism is dead. "Our way or the highway", died with the British and American Empire. We need to find solutions to our differences instead of saying might is right and Western Civilization is superior.



skd
08.4.09 - 3:31 pm

reply


As I'm sure you've guessed my opinion is based on what I've read.

Being a tourist in DPRK has never really appealed to me, considering it's difficult for a US or ROK citizen to even get in, they are still at war after all. After your arrival they take your cell phone and a government assigned "guide" follows you, or leads you as the case may be, everywhere you go. Which of course are only the places you are permitted to see.

So I guess I'll ask have you ever been to North Korea? What did you think of the government, living conditions, and general freedom of the people living there?



franz
responding to a comment by vladster
08.4.09 - 3:39 pm

reply


that's the mystery behind it

nobody knows

well i supposedry have reratives up there stirr

but when i think of north korea, i just think of kim john il, being very ronery



_iJunes
responding to a comment by franz
08.4.09 - 3:45 pm

reply


ooh... sexy voice!



Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by _iJunes
08.4.09 - 3:46 pm

reply


reratives??



rayrayray
08.4.09 - 3:46 pm

reply


RIDAZZ GO TO SEOUL!



Joe Borfo
responding to a comment by rayrayray
08.4.09 - 3:48 pm

reply


ahn yang.



sciencefriction
08.4.09 - 3:52 pm

reply


Ridazz trip to Pyongyang! We can has camp here?

Everything about that hotel seems to re-enact North Korea's problems in architectural form. I once heard it described as "the closest that human beings have yet come to building a death star."



nathansnider
08.4.09 - 6:31 pm

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I think a Ridazz trip to Pyongyang could literally result in a large scale war, and quite possibly World War III.

If someone made a Death Star hotel I would be one of it's first customers.



franz
responding to a comment by nathansnider
08.4.09 - 10:12 pm

reply


I approve of this message..


"If you think only the West is transporting arms you would be, completely incorrect What is the most ubiquitous assault rifle on the planet, and what are it's countries of origin?"


I'm not saying the west is the only group that transports arms. I'm saying it's hypocritical for the US to criticize other nations for transporting arms when the US transports arms like a mug.



Roadblock
responding to a comment by skd
08.4.09 - 10:24 pm

reply


Skull is there right now. we can crash at her pad.



Roadblock
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
08.4.09 - 10:25 pm

reply


judging by the photo of that building it actually looks like a normal city. they just ran out of money for that building because the soviet union collapsed and they lost a lot of their backing I assume.



Roadblock
responding to a comment by franz
08.4.09 - 10:26 pm

reply


the design of that building is pretty fuckin crazy though



Roadblock
08.4.09 - 10:28 pm

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It's not hypocritical if you consider that DPRK is still technically at war with our ally The Republic of Korea and we have troops stationed along it's entire southern border which many of us seem to forget.

I would also suggest that while Pyongyang may look normal from the few photographs we get to see of it. The fact construction was halted so long on this building is a tell tale sign of how deeply impoverished the country is. I've read of reports some 60% of children in the DPRK are malnourished. This Washington Times article claims the average male height of defecting DPRK citizens is on average 5" shorter and 25lbs lighter than the average ROK citizen, who are themselves not known for there particularly imposing size.



franz
responding to a comment by Roadblock
08.5.09 - 3:22 am

reply

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