My latest peeve!
Thread started by
mr rollers at 05.28.08 - 1:26 am
As if dickheads of the four wheeled variety weren't enough, we now face a new scourge: mopeds, scooters, whatever you want to call those fuckin' hornet sounding things that seem to be proliferating around town these days.
On my way over to Tren Way for a ride tonight, I was buzzed in the bike lane on Silverlake by one of these motherfuckers. Would that I could have caught up to him (I tried) to give him a piece of my mind and to school him in the California Vehicle Code, which states:
"21209. (a) No person shall drive a motor vehicle in a bicycle lane established on a roadway pursuant to Section 21207 except as follows:
(1) To park where parking is permitted. (2) To enter or leave the roadway. (3) To prepare for a turn within a distance of 200 feet from the intersection. (b) This section does not prohibit the use of a motorized bicycle in a bicycle lane, pursuant to Section 21207.5, at a speed no greater than is reasonable or prudent, having due regard for visibility, traffic conditions, and the condition of the roadway surface of the bicycle lane, and in a manner which does not endanger the safety of bicyclists."
The battle is on!
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Cyclists here don't seem to mind them, but wait until they proliferate. They are accesible to the lazy driving masses, and pollute terribly, They suck in Rome and they will suck here.
Anyone have one I can borrow?
franz05.28.08 - 1:32 am
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i'm sorry to say that i presently have no vacancy in my hate bank. i will, therefore, be unable at this time to join you in your battle of the moped. it is my sincerest intention that once i have slayed the mighty automobile, stopped corporate polluters, and rescued all kittens, i will then have the energy to help you in your crusade. until then, i remain
respectfully yours,
indigis
indigis05.28.08 - 6:38 am
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Not a good sign mr rollers, I've been seeing more scooters and mopeds on the road. Most of them seemed that they've been sitting in storage for the last 30 years. They might serve as an alternative to car but they're worse when it come to pollution since they mostly have 2 stroke engines. I do not see it getting any better as gas prices increase. Good thing is it is very difficult to register a new 2 stroked vehicle in CA. Downside is it is not necessary to register anything with less than a 50 cc motor; (mopeds).
As we've seen in the 70's, people will try alternate forms of transport but the bicycle will probably be at the bottom of the list for most. Smaller cars, motorcycles, scooters, mopeds and mass transit will get a boost. Many wish that LA become more like a European city but it would suck if that city turned out to be Rome.
sc_nomad05.28.08 - 7:51 am
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Just typed out and lost a huge reply to this.
briefly, these things are everywhere in Seattle and Portland right now and seem like the next big trend. Especially with rising gas prices people are going to opt for these before bikes because they have to do less work I think. Long and short of it is they suck but I think we're going to be seeing more and not less in the near future. Ugh.
seanbonner05.28.08 - 7:51 am
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Good topic. I've seen more myself too out here on the West side. Every one that I've seen has been a four-stroke, so there's no issue with pollution there. If they start messing with the bike lane, than that's an issue, but overall I think I come down on this being a big improvement out there on the roadways. As long as they are four-strokes, then that's vastly less pollution and gas usage as full-size vehicles. The more of them out there, the more drivers are going to start looking more carefully for small two-wheeled vehicles, which should only benefit bikes. It might just take a little while, and little bit of road-side education to teach the scooter drivers that they can lane split all they want, but that the bike lane remains ours.
The simple fact is, not everyone is going to consider bike commuting. So let's not let perfection be the enemy of getting something done. This is a big improvement. If this is the trend that replaces Escalades with 22" rims, then bring it on.
0gravity05.28.08 - 8:50 am
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k... four-stroke bikes are still just as much a pollution problem.
between two-stroke and four-stroke engines, the pollution is about equal. yes two-stroke oil pollutes more but they consume a LOT less than four-stroke engines (gas mileage is generally at least 150% better).
also, you do need to register mopeds (motorized bicycles in the CVC). it's a one-time registration fee... meaning it lasts for the life of the bike.
mr rollers, the section of the code you're looking for is 21207.5. mopeds are not allowed to ride in the bike lane. that said, i don't think the behavior of one moped rider means they all ride like that.
for the record... yeah i've been riding scooters, mopeds and little two-stroke motorcycles for years (almost as long as i've been commuting by bicycle). it's fun and it's fast... but not too fast.
onethirtynine05.28.08 - 10:32 am
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Maybe it's not a problem out there yet.
But over here in silverlake/echo park, I see scooters in the bike lane all the time.
kyber05.28.08 - 10:44 am
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a la rollrz: scooters, mopeds, whatever the hell they are called.
kyber05.28.08 - 10:45 am
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^^^^ A fellow scooterist, great. Another thing that troubles me is that a lot of newer scooter/moped/motorcyclist are unlicensed and uninsured. I can only draw from my experience but the last 5 people I know, who've purchased a scooter/motorcycle lately are unlicensed and have made no effort in obtaining one. The importance of being licensed is you are forced to go through a process where you need to know the basic laws.
I suspect that a lot of the moped riders out there are also unlicensed and ride them as if they are bicycles. Not only have I seen them on bike lanes, they ride them on sidewalks.
sc_nomad05.28.08 - 10:56 am
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"The battle is on!"
Yeah! Tren Way Battle Gang. If you see scooters in the bike lane, throw poop in their mouf!
Joe Borfo05.28.08 - 11:06 am
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@ OneThirtyNine......what are you talking about that four-strokes are just as much of a pollution problem as a two-stroke? Nonsense.
And you're saying the gas mileage of a 2-stroke is better than a 4-stroke? I seriously doubt that. But even if that's true, those two strokes DO pollute at LOT MORE. How is having lots of four-strokes out there (and that's most of them) getting 60-75 mpg not a good thing for our roads, our air, our collective gas consumption, etc ?
0gravity05.28.08 - 11:56 am
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As someone that's recently contemplated selling my car and getting a scooter, what electric alternatives are there? An electric scooter sounds even more logical than an electric car. Short trips, light weight, form factor predisposed to a platform of batteries...
Any links?
Eric Hair05.28.08 - 12:47 pm
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yes i'm saying two-stroke bikes get way better mileage. for example, a 200cc 2-stroke twin will get about 70-90mpg whereas a four-stroke 200cc twin will get about 40-60mpg. don't ask me why but it might have something to do with the pistons which have to do twice as much work.
besides that, most four-stroke bikes out there have bigger engines and usually are at least two cylinders which eats up way more gas. mopeds are all single-cylinder bikes and get phenomenal mileage.
onethirtynine05.28.08 - 12:53 pm
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Right on K, thanks.
2-stroke engines are also way louder........that would be the 'hornet' that buzzed Rollers.
Eric Hair05.28.08 - 1:08 pm
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@ onethirtynine...
Well, if you're right, I've been learned something new. Had no idea the two-strokes had better mileage. But regardless, we certainly don't want those on our roads. They're obnoxiously loud and they pollute like hell (I think we agree on that point). The four-strokes are a lot more common and 60-70 mpg is still pretty damn amazing compared to the hulking beasts that commonly drive our roads. I guess what I'm saying still stands that the more of them on the roads the better.
0gravity05.28.08 - 1:14 pm
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For engines with the same displacements, a 2 stroke will give you a lot more power, maybe better mileage but will pollute more. There are 2 stroke engines that are comparable to 4 stroke when it comes to emissions but the engines in are older scooters and mopeds aren't it.
sc_nomad05.28.08 - 1:15 pm
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I don't know where you are getting the idea that 4-stroke scooters are predominantly twins. The vast majority of them are singles. Here's Yamaha's lineup - all singles:
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modeloverview/cat/2008/60/model_overview.aspx
All of aprilia's 4 stroke scooters are singles and even their two strokes are quite clean, since they use some nifty engine technology to prevent unburned fuel from getting out of the exhaust port, despite being a 2-stroke.
A quick check of the rest of Piaggio's lineup (Vespa, Gilera, Aprilia) shows that all (or at least the vast majority) of their scooters for the US market are 4-stroke singles.
And I can think of a number of 200cc 4-stroke scooters that get mileage above 50 mpg.
ideasculptor05.28.08 - 1:16 pm
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It is also worth pointing out that emissions standards for motorcycles and scooters are far lower than for cars. Even though they get fantastic mileage, they are allowed to pollute quite a bit more than cars, and generally do because most don't come equipped with a catalytic convertor to clean up the exhaust. So your greenhouse gas/gobal warming output is far improved on a scooter, but visibility and breathability are probably worse than driving a brand new car. A newer scooter against an older car, however, will compare very well and get double the mileage (or better). Emissions standards for motorcycles and scooters are increasing, too, and in california may already be at or near parity with cars. I haven't checked recently.
Many newer bikes and scooters do have catalytic convertors in the exhaust, too. BMW make some full motorcycles at 650cc and 800cc displacements that get 60mpg or better and are available with ABS brakes, cat. convertor, and make plenty of power for freeway comfort.
ideasculptor05.28.08 - 1:23 pm
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One other thing to point out - less time spent idling in traffic because you can lane split has enormous repercussions on the quality of air you leave behind you on a per-mile basis. The same goes for improving your gas mileage. Far better to be moving between the cars than to be stopped and idling.
ideasculptor05.28.08 - 1:24 pm
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^^^ True there is not smog testing for motorcycles/scooters......yet.
sc_nomad05.28.08 - 1:26 pm
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You'll never catch me on one of those, it's all about 650cc or more.
Not to mention they sound as horrible as ricers.
bentstrider05.28.08 - 1:33 pm
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Interesting point above about the lower emissions requirements for motorcycles and scooters.
Me personally, since I know how to drive a motorcycle, I would probably just get a motorcycle VS a scooter because I would prefer something with more balz and cornering ability. But for most people not interested in learning clutch/gears of a motorcycle, the scooter is a quick way to save money on gas.
0gravity05.28.08 - 1:34 pm
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Anyone who's ever been to a city that allows 2-stroke bikes knows that burning oil smell. They do pollute more.
Obviously I don't want to take away your classic scooters and motorcycles, but if everyone had one it would kinda suck.
I can see these becoming the next hipster accessory. I doubt they will gain wide acceptance, since they break more than bikes and most people look silly riding them. The dork factor will get milked for ironic effect then people will get over it.
Still, if more people would take short trips in these instead of a car I welcome that. They really should be riding a bike, but ...
cabhauler05.28.08 - 1:45 pm
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sorry. i was talking about 4-stroke bikes in general... including motorcycles hence most bikes on the road being twin engines or more. i always happen to lump scooters and motorcycles into the same category. that's the way the DMV sees it anyway.
but yeah, of course pretty much all scooters are singles. i don't think even the modern maxi-scooters like the Silverwing or Piaggio's Beverly series are twins.
onethirtynine05.28.08 - 1:58 pm
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anyway, i like all my bikes. of course i ride bicycles more often than anything. motorcycles and mopeds are just my weekend toys. sorry if you don't like my smoke but at least i don't have a car.
onethirtynine05.28.08 - 2:02 pm
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They are multiplying fast on this side of town. Mopeds around here are annoying when there in the bike lane. I will throw a broom stick in there wheel next time one tries to split a bike lane with me.
fuck you
I think 2 strokes are even more annoying, in the bike lane or not. Oh, it takes you 7 miles to get up to 35mph?
get a real motorcycle.
I had an intern once who drove a brand new BMW M series his mom bought him, and he also had a piece of shit moped. I hated that guy because he was trying to be sooo kool on his leaky ass two stroker.
Mook05.28.08 - 6:59 pm
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What Mook said.
"Get A Real Motorcycle!!! Half-Steppin', Hedgetrimmer-Jockeys!!!"
bentstrider05.28.08 - 8:44 pm
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Don't hate the hipsters
I'm pretty sure if it has pedals, it can ride in the bike lane
vehicle code bla blah
I was strongly considering getting a moped recently... but, really, the only thing better than going fast on two wheels is being able to stop. Moped brakes suuuuuk. So I got a motorcycle instead.
NefariousT05.28.08 - 9:14 pm
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LOL, the ol' SGV, at least the eastern part, seems to be moped free. Nuthin' but cars, cars, cars, and a ton of SUV's and trucks.
surfzombo05.28.08 - 9:22 pm
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All this talk about 2 strokes, 4 strokes, etc. got me all excited. I was wondering if those damn things were supposed to be in the damn bike lane. It's pretty lame that what little space we do have is being infiltrated by that concoction de Satan.
NEWB31005.29.08 - 12:06 am
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Yes, that was the primary intention of my original post, which is why I had to look up and post the relevant CVC section. It looks like there are relatively few of these contraptions that are legal in the bike lane to begin with (namely "motorized bicycles") and with the following restriction: "at a speed no greater than is reasonable or prudent, having due regard for visibility, traffic conditions, and the condition of the roadway surface of the bicycle lane, and in a manner which does not endanger the safety of bicyclists."
mr rollers05.29.08 - 8:31 am
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"where's it say that, rollers?
onethirtynine"
CVC # 21209 . . . see my first post.
mr rollers05.29.08 - 10:59 am
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I've been known to abuse the bike lane on my motorcycle when lanesplitting up to the front of a red light. But I also defer to any cyclists in the lane and don't actually 'ride' in the lane when the light is green or traffic is moving.
Deal with it bee-yotch
ideasculptor05.29.08 - 11:24 am
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I'm with you Rollers. I haven't had it happen to me yet, but if any motorized asshole is stupid enough to buzz me in the bike lane, I will fuck them up. I will start carrying weapons again. Don't like to, but that's how I'll DEAL with it.
the reverend dak05.29.08 - 12:58 pm
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See, now I kind of want to harass the Tren way riders on Tuesday nights in the bike lane, just to see what Dak is gonna do.
ideasculptor05.30.08 - 1:28 pm
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Let's just say the u-lock is my sword.
kyber05.30.08 - 1:44 pm
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The problem with these damn CVC laws is that they are so open to interpretation. What might be a reasonable speed to a "motorized bicycle" driver in the bike lane is probably not going to be all that safe for cyclists. In my opinion, bike lanes shout be unilaterally off-limits to motorized devices.
I think more and more these days that the CVC is pretty much full of shit, at least as far as being useful for cyclists.
angle05.30.08 - 1:50 pm
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That's what I keep trying to tell people. And CVC 21202 is the lamest of them all: no matter how many times you stencil it on your messenger bag, it's really just a "stay in the gutter" law with a few very ambiguous exceptions.
PC05.30.08 - 1:54 pm
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Ridazz Roulette!
Throw poop in K's Mouf!
poop!