Great article.
I too may already be a member!
Joe Borfo07.1.10 - 2:39 pm
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yeah I ran into one of these idiots on a facebook essay... vehicular cyclists are a small yet powerful group and they are all up in yo federal and state keeping paint off the streets. In LA we are forced to be vehicular cyclists and of course we are forced off the roads by angry drivers who think they own it.
Roadblock07.1.10 - 2:42 pm
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yeah it is a conundrum.
Theres a happy medium in all of this, right?
Infrastructure and effective road sharing is our goal, right?
Joe Borfo responding to a
comment by Roadblock
07.1.10 - 2:45 pm
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Sharrows and
Effective Cycling can work together, no?
Most of what it says I believe in. But it's too extreme and not adopting certain ideas like road signs and sharrows.
I do think I encourage "effictive cycling" though. For the most part. Just not the anti bike lane part. Ya know?
Joe Borfo07.1.10 - 2:49 pm
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honestly I want what the netherlands has... there is road sharing on small streets of which there are many. cyclists have a higher level of legal protection. there is a network of segregated bicycle highways across the country. You can get anywhere from anywhere with out a map. there are signs everywhere with km distance and scenic route indicators.....
Roadblock responding to a
comment by Joe Borfo
07.1.10 - 2:51 pm
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Yeah. but Netherlands does not always separate the street from the a bike street. There are times when the cyclists are in the regular part of vehicular traffic. Therefore, I believe that both effective cycling and some separated infrastructure can exist simultaneously and need to.
Joe Borfo responding to a
comment by Roadblock
07.1.10 - 2:54 pm
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Well, I consider myself a vehicular cyclist, but in LA, there's really no other way to cycle--since we lack so much infrastructure--unless you are on the sidewalk or ride solely on bike paths. If you're commuting, it's likely you're doing so on the streets and doing so in the manner that other vehicles use the road.
There were a few comments on the article that were pretty much in line with what I've thought, which is that I'm all for bicycle infrastructure but not substandard infrastructure. And considering this is LA, I wouldn't mind having a concrete barrier between me and the tow truck who blatantly tried to run me down, blaring his horn for a full block, last night on Venice Blvd while I was IN the bicycle lane.
danceralamode07.1.10 - 2:56 pm
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you basically said what I said.
I am just trying to point out that governments ignore the sharing part and focus on the separation of bikes from regular traffic. I do not support this thinking.
Joe Borfo07.1.10 - 2:58 pm
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I swear that's has to be my next vacation. I've been hearing too much about this paradise.
danceralamode responding to a
comment by Roadblock
07.1.10 - 2:58 pm
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Instead of one or the other, we should be advocating a holistic approach--road sharing, signage, education, separated bike lanes, etc.?
danceralamode responding to a
comment by Joe Borfo
07.1.10 - 3:00 pm
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the sharing part works when the speed limit is under 25mph... but it become infeasable when its 30mph +
Roadblock responding to a
comment by Joe Borfo
07.1.10 - 3:01 pm
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oops I was responding to Rb.
Yeah, good point.
When it comes to an incident like that. That has to do with impatience and hatred from drivers who will not accept you as a vehicle. It's the whole MACHO attitude of I will crush you so stay off the road. Sure, it is true he can crush us - But we should have stricter laws like Rb was saying that protect us from those smaller humans from being able to get their way.
Joe Borfo responding to a
comment by danceralamode
07.1.10 - 3:03 pm
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I ride on the sidewalk just to be safe. no brakes. and I got my track stand down like downtown julie brown.
md2 responding to a
comment by Roadblock
07.1.10 - 3:04 pm
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interstate hwys allow bikes on the right lane. We've done it. It's doable... Ok, it's not as safe as a separated path. sure. I am all for that. But it'ts the inner city riding I am referring to. I ride to work on a 45mph street. I act like a vehicle does on this commute. I find I get respected better when I follow the effective cycling standards. Is this not something I should be encouraging others to do?
Joe Borfo responding to a
comment by Roadblock
07.1.10 - 3:06 pm
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On my commute I see an average of 4 "cyclists" a day riding on the opposite side of the street going the wrong direction. This makes my blood boil. This is why I like effective cycling ideals so much. Fuck the sidewalk - unless you're a minor or a noob.
Joe Borfo07.1.10 - 3:15 pm
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I am all for riding vehicular. Just realize It's a numbers game you are playing. No matter how effective you ride, there are always people speeding distracted and drunk out there...
Roadblock responding to a
comment by Joe Borfo
07.1.10 - 3:29 pm
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So you want to see separated bike roads? What's your ideal?
Joe Borfo responding to a
comment by Roadblock
07.1.10 - 3:35 pm
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when gas prices increase, we'll have our way. It's gotta affect the general public's wallet for change to occur.
I'm all for $10/gal gas.
Let the rich have privileges, I just want to ride my bike.... plus if anyone is going to hit you with their car, you want them to be rich.
md2 responding to a
comment by Joe Borfo
07.1.10 - 3:48 pm
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The $10/gal fuel costs will of course also make many of these aggro drivers rethink using their vehicle for those short-ass trips down to the 7-11 for junk food.
At least when I go out for junk food, I'm somewhat burning it off and doing it stealthily.
As far as being afraid of cars on the road, I got over that and decided if a single driver can't wait to safely pass and wants to be a dick, let them be a dick.
Eventually, they'll either;
A)Calm the fuck down and not act like a retarded ape during rush hour.
B)Die of a heart-attack some place and the world moves on without them.
In the end, it's all about standing your ground and weeding out the worst of these Cracker-Jack license holders.
bentstrider responding to a
comment by md2
07.1.10 - 5:24 pm
reply
your link was brokked -
http://www.slate.com/id/2258675/
I like this!
This is how things are going to start rolling - People need to start start exploring all the possibilities of how to improve infrastructure. We need to get Bicycle Boulevards soon. More fokken bike paths alongside freeways.
Joe Borfo responding to a
comment by Foldie
07.2.10 - 1:00 pm
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But ALL roads in LA are 30+ mph, because drivers push the speed limits, and then the roads get reworked to accommodate the faster speeds.
Simply creating traffic-calmed, multi-use streets can slow traffic to safer speeds and create more livable neighborhoods... it's just that more people need to see the value in doing that, rather than believing that higher speed limits and expanding freeways is the solution to all our urban transportation problems.
Maybe it will take ultra-high gas prices or another economic meltdown for the public to embrace these ideas, but I don't think they're infeasible.
angle responding to a
comment by Roadblock
07.2.10 - 1:05 pm
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The point that for the most part in LA we are all (noobs and minors aside) Vehicular Cyclist rings true to me. But its not a conscious decision, most of the bike paths are completely impractical for anything besides leisure. I always try to explain the facts to my friends who gripe about cyclists on the road, which is simply that we are moving vehicles too and if a cyclist is "in your way"(fucin absurd, but I digress...) just yield until it's safe for everyone to pass, and before they know it they will be blasting back down the street as fast as that death trap can take them.
P.s. I love LA&MR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAXX07.2.10 - 3:49 pm
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Saw my first sharrows in person last Wednesday. Kind of underwhelming and they were on a really wide stretch of road that really didn't need them in the first place, in my opinion. I also don't credit the general public with the intelligence, respect or competence to observe them properly. As mentioned earlier in this thread, many drivers already fail to respect bike lanes, and sharrows don't even define a "protected" space for cyclists the way a bike lane would. A d-bag driver will be a d-bag driver (intentionally, drunkenly, distractedly or otherwise) no matter how much paint, signage or CVC you throw at them. The type of driver that is going to assault you with their vehicle or mow you down while texting cannot be educated into compliance.
I don't see physically separated bike highways as a feasible solution in LA. Everything is already built up from coast to high desert, from Carlsbad to Ventura to Sylmar to San Bernardino. Whose buildings are you going to demolish or whose streets / lanes are you going to close to make space for these things? How are you going to build enough of them over the entire greater LA area to be meaningful? Who will pay for it all? etc etc I'm all for it, but these are difficult questions and problems that I'm not convinced the American public in general (LA public in particular) is willing to overcome until they see that the planet's oil reserves have been completely exhausted or something extreme along those lines..
As far as changing the transportation culture in LA, I don't think an economic meltdown or $10 gas will change things as significantly as you guys are talking about. When gas was peaking a couple years ago and the economy was hitting the hardest times we'd seen in decades, SUVs and trucks were still selling in record (occasionally only in near-record) numbers. Sure, folks were trading in V8's for V6's, but people were still buying trucks. They are addicted to the convenience, the image, etc etc. I think the best you could hope for if gas spiked or the economy took another / a worse dump would be people flocking towards hybrid / electric options or smaller gas cars.
I know I tend towards cynicism / "realism" / pessimism (take your pick) but I do dream of a better / bike-ier world, and I hope you guys and the public I love to hate will prove me wrong and show me a sustainable, healthy transportation infrastructure in LA in my lifetime / before the apocalypse.
outerspace07.3.10 - 1:11 am
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I don't buy the argument that you cannot put infrastructure in because the city is already built up. NYC, Seattle, Vancouver and portland to name a few have taken away space from cars to accommodate separated lanes. It does not take an act of god to get things done, it just takes political will.
It can happen here and I think it will happen over time.
Foldie responding to a
comment by outerspace
07.3.10 - 9:13 am
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$10/gal fuel costs might not be enough to get people to cut back on driving, but it sure doesn't take a rocket-scientist to see that adding more lanes to freeways or surface streets has done Jack Shit to reduce congestion.
After enough traffic jams, accidents, and roadrage beatdowns/arrests have gotten to a boiling point, maybe then people will start to care.
As it goes, nothing seems to get done until the casualty count goes up.
bentstrider responding to a
comment by outerspace
07.3.10 - 2:11 pm
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I'm definitely not arguing that it can't be done, just that I don't think we'll see the political will you're talking about any time soon. The gov't has to be willing to piss off 16 million people to satisfy a few thousand in the desperate hope that the 16 million will come around to the idea eventually. I would consider that an act of god.
Yeah, yeah, grumble grumble... like I said, I hope you guys will be telling me "told ya so" sooner instead of later. But until then grumblin' is a hard habit to break. I calls it like I sees it.
outerspace responding to a
comment by Foldie
07.4.10 - 12:24 am
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Bike paths or lanes by themselves aren't good or bad, but when the government puts in poorly designed, unsafe and inconvenient bike lanes, forces bike riders to use them, and then pats itself on the back for a job well done, that is nothing short of a bicycle apartheid.
Cycling infrastructure needs to be expanded, but so do cyclists' rights to use the roads and their right to freedom from driver harassment.
vladster07.5.10 - 10:41 am
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