Hey Vegans and Vegetarians!
Thread started by
newarkhouse at 03.25.10 - 11:26 am
What sort of pills/supplements do you take?
Ive been a pescaterian for about 3 years now and have been slowly weaning myself off fish for all the obvious reasons, but have started to question my use of eggs and cheese as well, which are my main sources of protein(and YUM).
I know i can eat more beans and sprouts, but I worry about lacking all dem vitamins, especially when chomping all city on a freakbike or fixie.
Whats your staple meal like? whats your favorite fruit or vegetable?
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I want to hear what PC has to say. Yes, I'm kicking him out of the closet.
Joe Borfo03.25.10 - 11:34 am
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I'm not vegan or vegetarian, but I'd recommend you check out this grain called quinoa. It's very high in protein, and very easy to cook. Then you can dress it however you'd like. Raw nuts such as almonds have good protein and other vitamins for you as well. I don't want to start up some cheeky debate, but why are you going vegan, because of the treatment of the animals? If so, going free range and supporting local farmers who care for their animals humanely and manage their farms sustainably is the way to go.
dusky03.25.10 - 11:34 am
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I've always thought it interesting that the moral paradigm shifts when a chicken is raised on a free-range farm and killed humanely.
I mean, if you're gonna kill a chicken, why is it morally acceptable to kill the happy chickens?
That's a little misleading to the chicken you might think, right?
---
Moreover, I think it contradictory that people who are vegan/vegetarian because they are against eating animals find it acceptable to enjoy ordering fried soy chicken. let alone expressing how great soy chicken is because it tastes just like chicken.
Nonetheless, I am admittedly envious of those who can pull off a Vegan diet. The biggest obstacle is, as the OP noted, supplementing the protein, and finding strict vegan items.
markd responding to a
comment by dusky
03.25.10 - 11:48 am
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Depends on how varied your diet is. If it's not good, you may want a multivitamin, a B complex, calcium supplements, and the occasional iron tablet (or cook with a cast iron frying pan).
For protein, Nutribiotic Brown Rice Protein powder is one of the few relatively cheap non-soy protein powders available. The vanilla flavor in a breakfast shake with some blueberries is a staple breakfast food.
Being vegan in L.A. is pretty simple.
JB03.25.10 - 1:06 pm
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Try adding Nutritional Yeast for B-12...it's good on popcorn and in vegan mac n cheese...
alicestrong03.25.10 - 2:02 pm
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Raquel and I just went vegan from being pescetarian a couple of days ago. We're eating lots of tofu and lentils for protein, and broccoli for calcium. In general, all leafy green are high in nutrients, the darker the color, the better for you.
I'm currently eating a bowl of oatmeal (made with soymilk) for lunch. Nomnomnom!
danya03.25.10 - 2:14 pm
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When I was vegan for a short time, I didn't take vitamins...but I found there are substitutes for almost anything and they're all tasty....
marinara sauce for pasta, veganaise, vegi dogs, meatless meatballs, vegan soy cheese, soy yogurt, tofu, edamami, crackers, falaffels, salads, soy ice cream, soy milk, fruit....
there are so many possibilities...
barleye03.25.10 - 2:50 pm
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Does more vegans mean cheaper meat prices?!?!?!?
***Unseen hand aimed for Adams face***
bentstrider03.25.10 - 3:08 pm
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When you say pills/supplements, do you mean vegan variations of typical nutritional supplements, vitamins and etc?
If that's the case, the two that concerned me when I went veg were Omega-3 and glucosamine. Fear not! Flax seed has Omega-3 (flax seed oil pills), so you don't need to use fish oil. There are also vegetarian glucosamine pills so you can avoid consuming shellfish. Most multi-vitamin type pills are available vegetarian, because sometimes the capsules have gelatin.
If you're implying that a vegan diet is somehow deficient in necessary nutrients, you are thankfully mistaken. Some people think that if they stop eating animals they will waste away or not be able to find enough protein. That's because our industrialized food culture has successfully conditioned us to think protein=meat. This is a fallacy. There are dozens of sources of plant proteins; soy (most complete source because it also has amino acids), nuts (peanut butter, need I say more?), seeds (hemp seed protein powders are really tasty), grains (like quinoa), pasta, and legumes (like beans and peas). Even fruits (esp bananas and apples) and vegetables (like artichokes and beets) contain protein.
Costco sells a 4lb bag of organic quinoa for $10. This lasts me about a month, and I eat quinoa 3-4 times per week. It is awesome with pasta sauce and meatless meatballs or covered in stir-fry vegetables and tofu.
Lately I have been eating tempeh enchiladas and homemade tofu burgers. We also eat lots of greens like kale, collard, mustard, and beet greens.
I think the secret is to always plan ahead. Go to your local farmer's market as often as possible. Keep your pantry stocked with healthy snacks and buy grains, nuts, etc in bulk. For bike rides: dates, raisins, figs, dried fruit, and almonds purchased in bulk, can be packaged into snack size ziplock bags and easily carried in your jersey pocket. I really like sweet potatoes but they take a long time to prepare, so I bake ~12 at a time, then refrigerate, throw in foil or plastic bag, and eat while riding. Yum!
Costco also has 18-packs of 8oz Silk chocolate soymilk that also fit in a jersey pocket and are great energy/recovery drink during/after a ride.
richbell03.25.10 - 3:23 pm
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You should watch
no impact man, a very interesting take on how we consume food. No necessarily targeted towards vegans, but a very good documentary.
Foldie03.25.10 - 3:33 pm
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Moreover, I think it contradictory that people who are vegan/vegetarian because they are against eating animals find it acceptable to enjoy ordering fried soy chicken. let alone expressing how great soy chicken is because it tastes just like chicken.
Please explain the actual contradiction in this.
PC responding to a
comment by markd
03.25.10 - 3:52 pm
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I want to hear what PC has to say.
Could you repeat that, but really slow and breathy? Could you repeat it a whole bunch of times?
PC responding to a
comment by Joe Borfo
03.25.10 - 3:54 pm
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I guess I'll chalk my reason for not being vegetarian/vegan to laziness. Sounds like many of you find it fairly easy to do so in L.A. and I have no excuse expect to say I've been lazy about finding solutions.
I'm not even the kind of person that loves food, I just eat for nutrition; I'm not very picky. I really enjoy vegan dishes, but I eat fish and chicken a couple times a week, along with eggs. i rarely eat red meat.
Anyhow, I think this is a good thread, and im interested in reading what others do. I've tried curbing my meat intake over the years, and I don't care for dairy all together (tofutti cream cheese, veganeise, soy yogurt, almond/soy milk all satisfy my dairy interests), so Vegan has always seemed a good transition for me, I just lacked the will to make a full conversion.
Maybe 2010 will be the year.
markd responding to a
comment by richbell
03.25.10 - 3:56 pm
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Let me first point out that I mentioned those that "are against eating animals".
For example, if a person is vegan merely for health reasons, the contradiction doesn't apply.
If I think eating animals is morally objectionable, there is something contradictory in finding pleasure in eating something "because" it is like eating animals -- though you're not actually eating the animal.
Does this help, or is something clearer you're looking for... I just dont know how much you want me to write.
markd responding to a
comment by PC
03.25.10 - 4:00 pm
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Uncle eddies vegan cookies are the best cookies ever.
buckchin responding to a
comment by markd
03.25.10 - 4:05 pm
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life feeds on life
or you can just eat pills :P
Im not against vegans or vegetarians...but sheeeiiit! how can you NOT eat meat?
Volta03.25.10 - 4:05 pm
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where are my carnivores??? carne asada tacos! WOOO!! one of my co workers/friend is a vegan,ive enjoyed some good stuff,but i love me some carne asada..
Huey55503.25.10 - 4:06 pm
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I'll note this too.
Video games enter into this interest moral framework too. Grand Theft Auto and such are very good examples of morally questionable activities to engage in, unless you think running around town killing people (anything for that matter) is okay.
markd responding to a
comment by PC
03.25.10 - 4:06 pm
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i was a vegan for 8 years and never took any supplements or ate special food. there are NO nutrients lacking in the vegetable kingdom, but there are plenty of nutrients you can ONLY get from vegetables.
here's my rule of thumb:
-each week i choose a basic meal that makes a complete protein and cook it from scratch (beans + rice, tofu + squash...)
-lots of fresh LOCAL fruits and vegetables (preferably from your farmers market. fresh veggies lose 1/2 their nutrition sitting in freight)
-green vegetables are particularly high in calcium (sauteed spinach, blanched kale...)
-when choosing a bread, always go for whole grains, especially if it is sprouted.
-avoid processed foods and simple sugars (wonderbread + coke = diabetes)
tortuga_veloce responding to a
comment by richbell
03.25.10 - 4:08 pm
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how can you not love these..
Huey55503.25.10 - 4:14 pm
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It's not always that they like to eat something that is like eating animals. I think some times it's about culture. We grow up eating burgers and tacos. If you stop eating meat, you shouldn't have to stop eating tacos. If you go vegan or vegetarian you need a substitute to go between your buns (please be creative when making jokes about this part, people) and you need something to fill your tortilla. unflavored tufo doesn't taste to good.
buckchin responding to a
comment by markd
03.25.10 - 4:18 pm
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I like fruit and vegetables as much as any vegan, but dammit I want MEAT between MAH BUNZ.
shotgunBOOMBOOM responding to a
comment by buckchin
03.25.10 - 4:23 pm
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I try to balance my diet and my meat.lol
Huey55503.25.10 - 4:24 pm
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"It's not always that they like to eat something that is like eating animals"
I didnt say that.
"If you stop eating meat, you shouldn't have to stop eating tacos"
Not certain, but I dont think tacos have to be associated with meat. Im not sure what you're saying here.
markd responding to a
comment by buckchin
03.25.10 - 4:27 pm
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MANGOS!!!! my favorite fruit
Huey55503.25.10 - 4:29 pm
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I tried to be a vegetarian but I just didn't find enough motivation. I found it very challenging and not enough incentive to not eat meat, cheese, and eggs.
I respect what people want to do for themselves. Good for you.
I try to be as conscious as I can when food shopping. I think things are starting to change more in that direction because of awareness of how food is processed and how animals are treated. I think veganism has helped that movement grow.
I would imagine there are a large panel of B vitamins you are missing in a typical vegan diet.
But just look at PC. He's Diamond Tough, yo.
DIAMOND TOUGH!!!
Joe Borfo03.25.10 - 4:29 pm
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'I found it very challenging and not enough incentive to not eat meat"
forgive my post crazy day... but I think this is probably the main reason more people do not curb their meat intake:
"not enough incentive"
I think what needs to be fleshed out are the kinds of incentive we're talking about.
1. for Person
2. for our moral sense
3. for our world
4. for other animals
The question I struggle with (Peter Singer in hand and all) is the laziness to do what appears to be "right", versus just ignoring everything I know about the issue.
When we speak of "incentives", its not just about person health, but the incentive of living in / creating a better world. That may be broad and whimsical, but I'll admit -- I have every reason to be vegan, apart from my own tastes and difficulties in changing habits.
Im partial to enjoying talking about moral issues rather than practicing them though. How's that for a moral dilemma?
markd responding to a
comment by Joe Borfo
03.25.10 - 4:43 pm
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Re: Free Range
I didn't want to become a vegetarian, because I do not believe that eating meat is morally wrong. Animals eat other animals, and we are animals of the right type of teeth and digestive system to take advantage of meat (no matter what some extremist vegan propaganda tells you: you can digest meat. It doesn't live in your intestines for decades. I have had a camera up in there. I promise. Meat doesn't stay there for even two days). That's enough for me.
But I do think that the way we treat the animals we are raising is deplorable, so I started looking for free range options. Then I found this:
FREE RANGE or FREE ROAMING: Producers must demonstrate to the Agency that the poultry has been allowed access to the outside.
But “allowing access” doesn’t mean much. A small door in a barn with thousands of chickens technically gives chickens an opportunity to go outside, but that doesn’t mean that they’ll have access to grass (it may only be a concrete slab). For chickens to produce the most healthful and flavorful eggs and meat [and for the chickens themselves to be healthy], they need to be able to eat a variety of green plants, seeds and bugs. Unfortunately, you can’t tell how the chickens live by reading the package in a store.
It's a BS label that the government made it too easy to acquire.
All said and done, I've cut my meat consumption because of the poor conditions animals are made to live in, but I won't quit it altogether.
outerspace03.25.10 - 4:58 pm
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If I think eating animals is morally objectionable, there is something contradictory in finding pleasure in eating something "because" it is like eating animals -- though you're not actually eating the animal.
Does this help, or is something clearer you're looking for... I just dont know how much you want me to write.
As I said, I was hoping you'd point out the actual contradiction. I get that there's something vaguely ironic going on there, although we apparently differ on the question of whether it's interesting enough to be worth mentioning, but in precisely what way is it contradictory?
I didn't choose the word; you did. I was just wondering whether you could explain what you, like,
meant by it.
PC responding to a
comment by markd
03.25.10 - 4:59 pm
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Thank you PC, may you be the one to wake me from my dogmatic slumbers (not that Im any good at this stuff).
We agree that some people believe:
1. Eating chicken is wrong
2. There are actual chickens in the world (i.e. an object in the world you can point to and say -- "that right there is a god damn chicken).
3. There are items we call "soy chicken" in the world (e.g. an object you can....same as above)
I agree that 2 & 3 are different. You may say, "when I eat (2), I'm eating a chicken". You may even be able to reduce it to that statement and that's it, no further reduction is needed.
With (3) you may just say, "I'm eating Soy". Thus, no apparent reference to "chicken" at all. And in turn nothing vaguely ironic going on here (nor contradictory).
So what we're debating (shit i have 15min)....
Is there something contradictory about eating something "called" (C) "chicken", while believing that eating (C) is wrong?
It appears some foods are called "chicken" that would not fall under (2), but because of their "relation", "connection", "similarity", "likeness (in taste?)" to (2), there is reason to call them (C). You might ask, "if not, then what reason is there to call them (C)?"
We might even talk of the purposefulness of calling something (C), so as to satisfy the desire to eat (2). And according to (1), eating (C) is wrong.
I suppose the vagueness lies in whether or not satisfying the "desire" to eat (C), via ordering something called (C) is enough to create a contradiction. That is, if I eat something because it is "like" (2) create a moral contradiction?
Of course we are not speaking of a contradiction in that someone both does and does not eat (2).
(i wish i had time to think this through more... but I have to leave)
Thanks PC.
markd responding to a
comment by PC
03.25.10 - 5:30 pm
reply
VEGANS CAN'T DRINK CERTAIN BEER, ALCOHOL, WINES, SPIRITS.
WWW.BARNIVORE.COM
GOOD LUCK.
imachynna03.25.10 - 5:38 pm
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Nice- this sorta explains my hesitancy to order certain meats at vegan restaurants. I never really thought about it, but I've never eaten soy "shellfish" or "beef", even though I knew it didn't have meat... weird.
&being vegetarian definitely came easily to me (for what it's worth). I stopped eating red meat a decade ago, after seeing all the piles of slaughtered cows while doing a project on Mad Cow disease. I stopped eating chicken almost 3 years ago when I realized I couldn't reconcile the image of a living chicken and the food going in my mouth while keeping my appetite.
danya responding to a
comment by markd
03.25.10 - 6:29 pm
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PEANUT BUTTER OATMEAL NUTS LOTSA NUTS. especially DEEEEZNUTS
BlaxicaNazi03.25.10 - 7:01 pm
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newark, you're a cilantrotarian.
look in the fidge/cabinet. that stuff has kept me alive for 6 or 7 years now. i generally don't take any supplements and only eat meat substitutes a couple times a week. beans, in all their forms, are pretty much the best things ever.
slowrighthand03.25.10 - 8:45 pm
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just because you can't hear plants scream doesn't mean they're not in pain.
coldcut03.25.10 - 9:26 pm
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Honestly I take offense to people boasting about eating meat. Vegetarians/Vegans take time and effort towards making a commitment to reduce the cruelty and inefficiency that is the meat industry. When Carnivores go on about meat (Whoo meat..........yeah I don't care that the living condition of animals or the poor quality of the meat I eat.) they're almost boasting about being lazy.
To each their own, People are going to eat whatever they want to. But for every pound of beef you eat it takes 25,000 gallons of water to get the animal to the slaughter house. Not to mention the poor food they intake, the hormones, the meat industry is disgusting. If you raise a cow from birth and love it and treat it right and feed it right....chances are when you eat it it will taste much better.
Vegans For THE WIN!
This thread has made me want to go vegan again. It's easy and super healthy and it reminds us that our bodies are just what we put into them...If i eat crap I'm ganna feel like crap....
Goji berries are the most amazing fruit. , it contains more beta carotene than carrots, and 500 times more vitamin C by weight than oranges. The fruit also contains over 18 amino acids, 21 trace minerals, and substantial amounts of vitamin B1, vitamin B2, vitamin B6 and vitamin E. The analysis also apparently discovered the berries to contain essential fatty acids and to be an incredibly rich source of carotenoids (more than any other known food).
Spiralina is really good. And Durian....fatty acids. I say shitiake/Rishi mushroom and please please please always eat raw cacao that's the source of happiness.
Tarmonster.03.25.10 - 9:29 pm
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sorry, didnt mean to offend.
I said I support you guys. I just havent found the effort
Joe Borfo responding to a
comment by Tarmonster.
03.26.10 - 12:01 am
reply
We agree that some people believe:
1. Eating chicken is wrong
2. There are actual chickens in the world (i.e. an object in the world you can point to and say -- "that right there is a god damn chicken).
3. There are items we call "soy chicken" in the world (e.g. an object you can....same as above)
I agree that 2 & 3 are different. You may say, "when I eat (2), I'm eating a chicken". You may even be able to reduce it to that statement and that's it, no further reduction is needed.
With (3) you may just say, "I'm eating Soy". Thus, no apparent reference to "chicken" at all. And in turn nothing vaguely ironic going on here (nor contradictory).
Not even if your soy is deliberately made to have the shape, flavor, and texture of chicken?
Is there something contradictory about eating something "called" (C) "chicken", while believing that eating (C) is wrong?
If that's what our hypothetical vegan really believes, then perhaps so. But is that what he believes? After all, it's not the gustatory experience of eating chicken that bothers him most; rather, it's the inhumane husbandry and killing of a live and presumably sentient chicken (2) in order to have the experience. Right?
It appears some foods are called "chicken" that would not fall under (2), but because of their "relation", "connection", "similarity", "likeness (in taste?)" to (2), there is reason to call them (C). You might ask, "if not, then what reason is there to call them (C)?"
I might ask, but I don't. That's because I don't care. I don't care because as far as the moral question is concerned, it seems to me that it doesn't matter what you call the damned thing--it matters what it *is*, and whether it is something that can be wronged. An ethical vegan will likely argue that a live biological chicken (2) can be wronged, but that a bunch of soy protein or wheat gluten condensed and processed to resemble chicken (C) cannot.
We might even talk of the purposefulness of calling something (C), so as to satisfy the desire to eat (2). And according to (1), eating (C) is wrong.
No. I'm afraid that only by the cheapest of semantic or philosophical juggling tricks can we conclude that according to (1), eating (C) is wrong. We would have to posit a vegan--hell, a person--so morally stunted as to believe that a real chicken has exactly the same status as a bunch of insensate vegetable matter shaped like a chicken, simply because some people use the same term for them. Turn that around: if I call you a bundle of wood, is it OK for me to set you on fire? Is there anybody (worth listening to) who would seriously argue that point?
But please tell me more about this "purposefulness" of yours. I suspect that it may contain an important clue as to where our elusive contradiction may be found.
I suppose the vagueness lies in whether or not satisfying the "desire" to eat (C), [I think you mean eat (2), don't you? --PC]
via ordering something called (C) is enough to create a contradiction. That is, if I eat something because it is "like" (2) create a moral contradiction?
That's what I'm asking *you*.
PC responding to a
comment by markd
03.26.10 - 2:29 am
reply
OMG ITS DANYA
how are you, starnger?
I miss you.
TheDude responding to a
comment by danya
03.26.10 - 2:32 am
reply
I'll note this too.
Video games enter into this interest moral framework too. Grand Theft Auto and such are very good examples of morally questionable activities to engage in, unless you think running around town killing people (anything for that matter) is okay.
Oh? Well, let's look at it in context.
Imagine a culture where children are brought up, and have been brought up for thousands of years, to believe precisely that it *is* OK to run around town killing people without hesitation or remorse in order to take their cars (bicycles, chariots, hilarious Fred Flintstone foot-propelled vehicles...) from them. In this culture, by the time a person reaches adulthood she has been so conditioned to regard this as a normal and desirable state of affairs, and has killed so many people and stolen so many vehicles, that to live otherwise would seem nearly unthinkable.
Now imagine that some members of this culture do some soul-searching, and conclude that despite all they've been taught, there's a huge moral problem with killing people for their vehicles--that those people are, after all, human beings with emotions, and the capacity to feel pain, and the ability to understand and fear their own death (and certainly to see it coming in the shape of another human being pointing a gun at them and shouting "GIMME YOUR CAR, FUCKER!"). So they resolve then and there to quit carjacking and murdering people, and to turn to more peaceful means of subsistence. For the sake of example, let's say that they become haberdashers.
But as rewarding as haberdashery can be, it just doesn't provide much of a thrill for somebody raised in a culture where the prevailing ideology values the sensation of hunting and killing other human beings far more than it values the experience of selling coats and trousers. So now what do we do? How do we live up to our ethical standards without going insane with boredom? Well, how about just playing a video game instead?
Thus, Grand Theft Auto is born. Now our gentle haberdashers can feel the primal thrill of chasing down random strangers on the street and killing them, without...you know, actually chasing down random strangers on the street and killing them.
Is it still a morally questionable thing to play this game, user "markd"? Hmm?
And is our eater of fake chick'n nuggets more like one of the GTA players in the world that you and I inhabit, or the GTA players in the world I've just described? Hmm? Hmm?
Could it be that context matters?
PC responding to a
comment by markd
03.26.10 - 2:58 am
reply
"If that's what our hypothetical vegan really believes, then perhaps so. But is that what he believes? After all, it's not the gustatory experience of eating chicken that bothers him most; rather, it's the inhumane husbandry and killing of a live and presumably sentient chicken (2) in order to have the experience. Right? "
--I agree that it is (2) that matters to the vegan, most.
"I might ask, but I don't. That's because I don't care. I don't care because as far as the moral question is concerned, it seems to me that it doesn't matter what you call the damned thing--it matters what it *is*, and whether it is something that can be wronged. An ethical vegan will likely argue that a live biological chicken (2) can be wronged, but that a bunch of soy protein or wheat gluten condensed and processed to resemble chicken (C) cannot."
--Again, we're not speaking of (2) as being the object of some wrong. I didn't suggest soy was being wronged. But isn't the issue about "why this vegan eats the soy chicken"? That is, because it is "like" chicken.
"No. I'm afraid that only by the cheapest of semantic or philosophical juggling tricks can we conclude that according to (1), eating (C) is wrong. We would have to posit a vegan--hell, a person--so morally stunted as to believe that a real chicken has exactly the same status as a bunch of insensate vegetable matter shaped like a chicken, simply because some people use the same term for them. Turn that around: if I call you a bundle of wood, is it OK for me to set you on fire? Is there anybody (worth listening to) who would seriously argue that point?"
--I meant according to (1) eating (2) is wrong (i wrote in a hurry). Sorry, I wasnt trying to offer cheap semantics, but that may be all i have to offer. And Im asking, whether or not the desire to eat (2) would also be wrong. That is, if a person believes (1) would also the "desire to" eat (2) be wrong?
E.g., murder is wrong. Would the desire to murder also be wrong?
"That's what I'm asking *you*. "
--Right, I wasn't trying to prove the point to you. It didn't read as if I was proving the point. I was asking the question, whether satisfying a "desire" to eat (2) via eating something that resembles (2) can create a moral contradiction.
If murder is wrong, would the the desire to murder also be wrong?
Suppose a person not only HAS the desire to murder, but also fulfills that desire by some act which resembles murder. Would the fulfillment of that desire -- say by shooting at people with paint balls -- also be wrong?
if this person fulfills the desire by shooting paper clips at stick figures, its hard to take serious that act being wrong. Sure, the desire may be wrong, but the act which fulfills that persons desire may not.
Suppose a vegan who believes (1), desires to eat (2), and satisfies that desire by eating (3). Sure (3) could be asparagus, and it matters little I suppose that someone calls the asparagus "chicken". The moral contradiction has to do with the person. Does that person find themselves in a moral contradiction when they satisfy a "desire" they believe to be wrong, by eating something that resembles -- the thing they believe wrong to eat?
Maybe not.
markd responding to a
comment by PC
03.26.10 - 7:26 am
reply
"How do we live up to our ethical standards without going insane with boredom?"
--by posting on this site of course.
markd responding to a
comment by PC
03.26.10 - 7:30 am
reply
"Is it still a morally questionable thing to play this game, user "markd"? Hmm?"
--I would say anything that keeps a person from running around town killing others is better than actual killing. Does substituting / fulfilling the void have any moral difference when that person sells clothes instead of simulating the act of killing? What do you think?
"And is our eater of fake chick'n nuggets more like one of the GTA players in the world that you and I inhabit, or the GTA players in the world I've just described? Hmm? Hmm?""
--I think they are in the world we inhabit. This thought first occurred to me at green leaves many years back. Two vegetarian friends raved about the crispy soy chicken ("i tastes just like chicken", etc). I thought, there appears to be something wrong with your excitement over eating soy chicken, BECAUSE it tastes like actual chicken (given this friend was against eating chicken). -- the point being --yes they exist in our world, not your world in the post above (and where is your world anyway?).
My analogy at the lunch then was something like -- suppose you think underage sex is wrong, but you keep asking your girlfriend to dress in little schoolgirl outfits to bed.
(i just realized my "markd" manifesto does not state, i changed my username from "md2". It did, but not that it matters... i just thought id say hi).
So, hi, PC. We should grab a bite to eat sometime.
md2 responding to a
comment by PC
03.26.10 - 9:42 am
reply
Hi! I thought that was you. I have to pack for a road trip this weekend, but I will be happy to continue this hairsplitting discussion on Monday--especially now that you've given me something to chew on (get it? it's a joke, son, I'm too fast for ya!).
Bump the thread.
PC responding to a
comment by md2
03.26.10 - 5:02 pm
reply
I'm officially vegan....fuck you kids. I refused Flan tonight.....I think I'll be okay.
Tarmonster.03.26.10 - 10:53 pm
reply
The rise of militant veganism has me shaking in my jammies.
That's alright though, one of these days in the near-future, a squash will rape a cow.
In due time, this "BovAsh" will breed an army of mutant, food-kingdom hybrids able to wield weaponry.
Not long after, every Vegan and Omnivorous man, woman, and child will be systematically slaughtered in an epic war of The Consumables.
The Day of Reckoning is at hand if we do not act immediately.
bentstrider responding to a
comment by Tarmonster.
03.27.10 - 12:13 am
reply
Just wanted to tell people to go to this spot, Veggie Grill on Sunset and Crescent Heights, inside that complex with the movie theater. Seriously its the best Vegetarian restaurant Ive ever been to. Im no expert on the whole, Vegetarian/Veganism/Raw what have you, but I recommend this place very highly.
JOKER03.27.10 - 12:18 am
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Suppose a person not only HAS the desire to murder, but also fulfills that desire by some act which resembles murder. Would the fulfillment of that desire -- say by shooting at people with paint balls -- also be wrong?
I vote "no." How about you?
"And is our eater of fake chick'n nuggets more like one of the GTA players in the world that you and I inhabit, or the GTA players in the world I've just described? Hmm? Hmm?""
--I think they are in the world we inhabit.
I think you're reading the book upside down. In the world we inhabit, which is the norm: satisfying the desire (whatever its provenance) to eat chicken by eating something that was once a live chicken, or satisfying the desire to eat chicken by eating "chicken"? Does the person who eats "chicken," then, represent movement toward the norm, or away from the norm?
PC responding to a
comment by markd
03.31.10 - 2:19 pm
reply
Hey Newark!
Here's a little vegetarians and vitamins info sheet I found online.
Dak and I (well....Dak, really) have starting making seitan at home, which is delicious, and once you get the basic recipe down you can experiment with it (for example, the
Hot Knives made seitan with jalapenos and cilantro that was out of this world). You can use it in a million ways (vegetarian bahn mi sandwiches hello!!), and it's just so freaking yummy. We got the basic recipe from the Veganomicon, a cookbook that I HIGHLY recommend, and I'm pretty damn sure that if you do a search online you'll find the recipe in a blog somewhere.
Also, we order
CSA (community supported agriculture) boxes from the South Central Farmers. It's a giant box full of in season vegetables grown, picked, and boxed by the South Central Farmers for only $15. You can split it with one or even two other people, it's so huge. But you get great shit, like right now the boxes have kale, beets, a couple different varieties of mustard greens, baby carrots, radishes, green onions, spinach, I don't even remember what else. It's a ton of tasty stuff to experiment cooking at home with. I think I'll make me some honey curried kale tonight, as a matter of fact!
Ms. Stephanie03.31.10 - 3:24 pm
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Come shut me up!
You want to fight me? Bring it. I'll run away and you'll never catch me because vegetarianism has made me skinny and fast. Bitch.
PC responding to a
comment by Joe Borfo
03.31.10 - 3:28 pm
reply
Many supplements and vitamin pills are worthless. This chart is pretty cool.
http://i.imgur.com/zzBMc.jpg
toweliesbong03.31.10 - 3:29 pm
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Let's see... could it be... could it be....
SEITAN!
Joe Borfo responding to a
comment by Ms. Stephanie
03.31.10 - 3:31 pm
reply
That chart indicates supplements taken by Adults with a healthy diet.
A) how do you or the creator of such chart define "healthy diet"?
B) How do supplements effect a person with a "not so healthy Diet"?
I think the idea of supplements is valid since most process food is disemboweled of most of it's nutrients and thus must make up for the way some people eat.
Foldie responding to a
comment by toweliesbong
03.31.10 - 3:36 pm
reply
"I think the idea of supplements is valid since most process food is disemboweled of most of it's nutrients and thus must make up for the way some people eat. "
It's really interesting that you say that, actually, because there is a book on that very topic that I highly recommend (that basically says big agri-business and processed foods are horrifying and are leeching everything that is good and nutritious from our food): The Omnivores Dilemma.
And of course, everyone should watch Food, Inc., especially people who don't pay much attention to their food and where it comes from. Really, it's enough to get me to join up with the anarchists that burn GMO crops.
Hello, FBI.
Ms. Stephanie responding to a
comment by toweliesbong
03.31.10 - 3:47 pm
reply
this beats getting sucked into the racist thread. I really regret arguing with that dude yesterday.
anyhow...
"I vote "no." How about you? "
--I vote no also. When's lunch?
"I think you're reading the book upside down. In the world we inhabit, which is the norm: satisfying the desire (whatever its provenance) to eat chicken by eating something that was once a live chicken, or satisfying the desire to eat chicken by eating "chicken"? Does the person who eats "chicken," then, represent movement toward the norm, or away from the norm?"
--i understood what you were suggesting by the norm of that world. And I also am with you on the idea that moving away from the norm (assuming the norm is something to move away from), by whatever means (so long as it is not harmful) is better.
I think we agree "better" does not always mean "right".
But what about the seasoned vegan (no pun intended)? Thats why I brought my anecdote into the post. These were seasoned vegetarians. Maybe I made this issue more mysteries by adding "desires" into the mix. A seasoned vegan/veggie may continue to have a hunger for a once live chicken, sort of like an NA member always taking it one day at a time...even 12 years later.
Ok, if thats the correct picture, then I can adapt to your world and conclude, sure... nothing wrong is really going on. But I think for those who inject morals into why they dont eat meat, there comes a point when... i mean really, it has less to do with norms.
I mean, driving in LA is the norm, but I dont feel the urge to drive. In fact the norm has shifted for me... put me behind the wheel, and Im frustrated im not riding to my destination.
But whats with norms anyway? I thought we we're all Kantians here.
how the hell do you italicize anyway?
markd responding to a
comment by PC
03.31.10 - 3:48 pm
reply
meant:
**mysterious
and
**I thought we were all Kantians here.
markd03.31.10 - 3:51 pm
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But I think for those who inject morals into why they dont eat meat, there comes a point when...
...when what?
i mean really, it has less to do with norms.
...and more to do with...?
PC responding to a
comment by markd
03.31.10 - 4:30 pm
reply
...when what?
...when you will explain how to italicize....
..and more to do with...?
...I need a new job.
markd responding to a
comment by PC
03.31.10 - 4:36 pm
reply
HTML tags.
Now, you.
PC responding to a
comment by markd
03.31.10 - 5:07 pm
reply
The moral principles for not eating meat have little to do with norms (at least in principle). The moral contradiction we are discussing seems to be about principles.
1. eating eat is wrong, for such and such reason(s).
I think im on the same page with you concerning the difference between an actual chicken and fake chicken. Eating the later "substance" is not morally wrong. Eating the former is morally wrong.
What I was trying (but maybe in vain) to illustrate earlier is the "likeness" we give activities and food. Of course fake chicken will never be real chicken, just as fake killing will not become actual killing. I think we're on the same page here.
So whats so special about these fake items/activities? Why do they exist? why are they so popular?
I think you tried to illustrate this in your other (our) world post. We're brought up in this chicken eating, gun slinging society, but god damn it -- this shit (the real shit) is wrong.
Enter substitutes.
PC, do you think its fair to suggest the following?
A. There are people who need substitutes because they're, for whatever reason, in need of a chicken fix, so to speak.
B. there are people who do not need that fix.
Does a vegan really need to be supplied with chicken like dishes? Suppose fried crispy soy chicken were just called -- fried crispy tofu. Suppose the tofu also just so happened to taste like chicken. It seems really strange to suggest that anyone would run into contradicting principles eating fried crispy tofu (just as they dont eating hummus).
Now the following may be a little bit of an arbitrary distinction, but let me give it a shot. I think our examples (i.e. paintballs, video games, soy-chicken) have a similarity in their likeness to the object they are substituting - i.e. they are very similar to bullets, the activity of people killing people, and real chicken.
About likeness:
Ex. A kid picks up a stick points it at a friend and says "ShotgunBoomBoom"
Next kid picks up a nerf gun...
Next kid picks up an orange plastic gun formed exactly like a 9mm gun...
Next kid picks up a paint ball gun...
Next kid picks up a BB gun...
Next kid picks up an actual gun...
A parent might be rightfully angry that so many toy companies purposefully (i guess im back to that) create guns that look so much "like" the real thing. They do not accuse a tree for growing a branch in the shape of a pistol.
A person may argue, I do not think guns are okay, i think its wrong that you're trying to sell my child something that looks in so many ways like a real gun. Could a person also express a similar complaint about soy-chicken? Or Grand theft auto? And I think you're asking: but what exactly is the complaint -- its not the fucking same/real thing.
Am I following your points correctly so far?
I have to go. But I hope this hairsplitting discussion is at least fun. It got me through the last 20 min of my workday
markd responding to a
comment by PC
03.31.10 - 5:39 pm
reply
I like this discussion. once you get past the internet/semantics/general fail, there's a lot of good discussion coming up, which has been lacking on the forums of late.
Also, I'm really enjoying being vegan so far. It's been nice and challenging.
(Hai Chris! I miss you too! I spoke to Hector today, we need a real Cruss reunion when he ands Steph get back.)
danya responding to a
comment by markd
03.31.10 - 6:49 pm
reply
Though I don’t have time… I just wanted to quickly add
Its not an issue of whether someone has a justified complaint, but whether there is any actual contradiction involved. If so, what is it?
For one, a vegan does not eat once live chicken. Second, the soy chicken is not once live chicken. Also, the principle says nothing about eating soy chicken, so how could a contradiction exist, if nothing is being contradicted?
What is missing is another principle concerning these “like” items. Or maybe some principle closely tied to the main principle, etc. For now it has appeared that Ive been forcing the issue, as in saying “see, see, don’t you see the contradiction?” They don’t like chicken, but they’re eating something like it – that’s contradictory. right?
PC, rightly asks “Fuck, Mark, will you just tell me WHY and quit wasting my time?”
And no, I have not shown the contradiction is there, yet (fingers crossed).
I want to touch on this, but I felt like we’ve been running into hiccups on the way (my fault I think).
markd03.31.10 - 8:14 pm
reply
PC, do you think its fair to suggest the following?
A. There are people who need substitutes because they're, for whatever reason, in need of a chicken fix, so to speak.
B. there are people who do not need that fix.
Does a vegan really need to be supplied with chicken like dishes? Suppose fried crispy soy chicken were just called -- fried crispy tofu. Suppose the tofu also just so happened to taste like chicken. It seems really strange to suggest that anyone would run into contradicting principles eating fried crispy tofu (just as they dont eating hummus).
Does anybody *need* tasty food? All we *need* is nourishment. As soon as you get into these tasty fixes of any kind, you're talking about something else. So, no, it's not fair (or, really, it's just not accurate) to suggest what you suggest.
About likeness:
Ex. A kid picks up a stick points it at a friend and says "ShotgunBoomBoom"
Next kid picks up a nerf gun...
Next kid picks up an orange plastic gun formed exactly like a 9mm gun...
Next kid picks up a paint ball gun...
Next kid picks up a BB gun...
Next kid picks up an actual gun...
A parent might be rightfully angry that so many toy companies purposefully (i guess im back to that) create guns that look so much "like" the real thing. They do not accuse a tree for growing a branch in the shape of a pistol.
A person may argue, I do not think guns are okay, i think its wrong that you're trying to sell my child something that looks in so many ways like a real gun. Could a person also express a similar complaint about soy-chicken? Or Grand theft auto? And I think you're asking: but what exactly is the complaint -- its not the fucking same/real thing.
No. I get the complaints, even if I don't necessarily agree with them. Normally in this society little kids don't carry real guns and most folks do not go around randomly carjacking and killing people. Motion towards, remember? A toy gun is motion towards a real gun*. GTA, the video game, is motion towards violently sociopathic anarchy. What, societally speaking, is soy chicken "motion towards": eating once-live animal flesh, or eating plants?
So, yeah, I get "likeness." But likeness doesn't always take you *to* the thing resembled. Sometimes it takes you away. This matters. Doesn't it?
PC responding to a
comment by markd
04.2.10 - 1:23 pm
reply
...forgot the footnote. Eh, fuck it. It wasn't important.
PC04.2.10 - 1:23 pm
reply
FUCK THIS VEGAN SHIT
IT'S ALL ABOUT MEAT
SINCE I'M THE PRESIDENT, I GET THE FINEST CUTS
VEAL, LONDON BROIL, AND FUCKIN FILET MIGNON
IT'S AMAZING!!!
PRESIDENT OBAMA04.2.10 - 2:13 pm
reply
Someone needs to kick you in the nuts
palucha66 responding to a
comment by PRESIDENT OBAMA
04.2.10 - 2:22 pm
reply
i'm eating factory farmed chicken wings.... mmm.
M.E.A.T. L.Y.F.E.!!!!!!
coldcut responding to a
comment by Joe Borfo
04.2.10 - 5:06 pm
reply
Man, who cares what people eat, or don't eat for that matter.
Get over it.
imachynna04.2.10 - 5:12 pm
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What, societally speaking, is soy chicken "motion towards": eating once-live animal flesh, or eating plants?
--by "motion toward" did you mean, it will guide you to the wrong activity (i.e. killing people, shooting real guns, eating real chicken), or just to remember the item it resembles?
when a person orders soy-chicken, do they ONLY recall the plant? when a person plays GTA i dont think they ONLY think "pixels, program, make-believe"?
I also dont mean to suggest in this discussion that soy-chicken would be a motion towards eating real chicken. I'm also less inclined to think a GTA master will have more a tendency to carjack and such (but I dont really know).
Anyhow, i think soy-chicken is a motion towards chicken more than a motion toward soy (or plant). Maybe we'll disagree here and maybe this is a case by case issue. I dont think it matters what the majority do as far as the discussion goes.
Do you think its a stretch to suggest a menu item called crispy soy-chicken, brings to mind something like: "i wonder if this will taste similar to chicken (in favor or texture)?" or "i like this item because it tastes like chicken"?
Now, the "taking away" you brought up; do you mean it has some moral significance? It seems you mentioned it before to suggest because it "takes someone away" from the real thing, it is not
wrong. But I don't think we're concerned with the utility of these items, because they DONT NEED TO EXIST.
Plastic guns, GTA, and soy-chicken are unnecessary items.
Do you need GTA to keep you from killing? Or plastic guns to keep you from real guns? Or soy-chicken to keep you from real chicken?
maybe some do, but....and here is my argument: Not those who believe eating chicken is wrong (or meat, as is implicit in the discussion). The person who takes serious the claim: EMIW (eating meat is wrong), would not want to be associated with actions resembling the act they think wrong. And this is not just abut veg diets, i think it makes sense across the spectrum of wrong activities.
Why?
Because engaging/participating in the resembled action SEEMS to be an unnecessary exercise of your own volition. That is, you are not forced to do any of the said activities. The fact that you participate in activity that resembles something you believe to be wrong, suggests that either you dont take serious the wrongness of the activity or you think it is okay to participate in activities that resemble wrong actions insofar as they are not the real action. If the later is true, then that is a tough argument to support too.
Believing eating soy-chicken is wrong, is tough to agree with because (as your world shows), even eating real chicken is taken lightly. Hence, if we had soy-baby human, soy-dolphin, soy-puppy, there would be some flags raised. This falls directly into the vegans claim that chickens are on the same level as other animals. Soy-chicken seems to contribute to the perception that they are not.
I have a feeling, if we bring our discussion of likeness back into the picture, we would agree that simulated killing is probably wrong as a video game, BECAUSE of how "like" the real thing they become and because it is unnecessary. On the other hand, we're not that much of moral fanatics to suggest Mario's dropping of Bowzer into Lava is on the same page.
So the issue with Soy-chicken is not its planthood, but its intended likeness. It is
too much like the real thing. And for no other reason but to give into the resembled activity of eating real chicken.
Claim:
1.Soy-chicken is unnecessary
2. (1) only exists to resemble the experience of eating real chicken
3.Eating real chicken is wrong for many/some
4.If (3) is true, then those people would not eat (1).
5. (4) is true, or activities that resemble a wrong activity either take (3) less serious or believe (2) is okay.
6. If (2) is okay, then it is not because there is any good argument for it existence (i.e. its an unnecessary item in the world), but because eating chicken is not a serious moral issue.
3 and 6 seem incompatible. (i should try fine tuning it.
I think we're disagreeing about 6 (mostly)
--time to hopefully hit the trail
markd responding to a
comment by PC
04.3.10 - 10:05 am
reply
TRY SPROUTING ! IT'S EASY! MAKE YOUR OWN CHEAP !
All you need is some dry Lentil beans , totally cheap about a $1.00 per lb
a glass Mason jar / spaghetti sauce / or pickle jar
and a mesh strainer. and some water.
1. Soak the beans in water in the glass jar for a day
2. Day 2 rinse the beans in strainer and put them back in the jar wet,
Do not soak on 2nd day that is only the on the 1st day.
3. Day 3 rinse beans again you should see some sprouting starting.
4. Day 4 keep rinsing do not put into direct sunlight, indirect on the sink is fine.
5 Day 5 rinse and start eating.
Stock up on Lentils, This is a way of getting your greens even if the stores close.
Plus they are a excellent energy food for riding along with Nuts like Almonds
Also BEE POLLIN is a good concentrated food source for riding.
I have often used the combination of these three foods for long rides 70 miles +
with good results.
Dedicated81804.3.10 - 11:59 am
reply
Forgot to say you only need to soak a handfull of beans to get a full jar of sprouts.
Dedicated81804.3.10 - 12:03 pm
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just because you can't hear plants scream doesn't mean they're not in pain.
coldcut04.3.10 - 4:08 pm
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Wait wut...you mean YOU don't hear them?
And tell those flowers to stop talking about me behind my back...
:)
alicestrong responding to a
comment by coldcut
04.3.10 - 4:24 pm
reply
Claim:
1.Soy-chicken is unnecessary
2. (1) only exists to resemble the experience of eating real chicken
3.Eating real chicken is wrong for many/some
4.If (3) is true, then those people would not eat (1).
5. (4) is true, or activities that resemble a wrong activity either take (3) less serious or believe (2) is okay.
6. If (2) is okay, then it is not because there is any good argument for it existence (i.e. its an unnecessary item in the world), but because eating chicken is not a serious moral issue.
I messed on the above. I just reread my post. I screwed this up...
i recant everything.
im just going to ride my bike and shut up.
markd04.3.10 - 5:57 pm
reply
If it helps you breathe, all the better. It's expensive, avoiding milk and meat is a pain, but breathing is worth it.
-Flax seeds, etc.
sus04.5.10 - 11:17 am
reply
FWIW, there's free vegan BBQ at Bike Night at the Hammer this Thursday.
http://hammer.ucla.edu/calendar/detail/type/program/id/412
JB04.5.10 - 11:56 am
reply
i recant everything.
I WIN!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, so I thought about you the other day while eating the most FUCKING DELICIOUS "chicken" sandwich at Love N Haight deli. The end.
PC responding to a
comment by markd
04.13.10 - 1:20 am
reply
you're going to hell; i can sense it.
oh, and i just read that some UC Davis prof claims red meat isn't as bad for the environment as previously thought.
So i guess we all win.
Also Did you know Flipper committed suicide? (see "the Cove")
md2 responding to a
comment by PC
04.13.10 - 8:06 am
reply
Russell stared into my eyes as he took chunks out of that “chicken” but I knew that deep down, he was thinking about you.
Btw the place is fucking delicious and stays open late, if you are in SF I recommend stopping by there.
-e-
Kakihara responding to a
comment by md2
04.13.10 - 1:51 pm
reply
thats so sweet... and this whole time I thought the Love N Haight deli was metaphorical.
I recently enjoyed a broccoli-kale burger at Flore... it was not the most fucking delicious though.
damn, im so avoiding work today...
md2 responding to a
comment by Kakihara
04.13.10 - 2:53 pm
reply
They’ve added about 6 new burgers to their menu, so far I have only tried the Portobello seitan and it didn’t disappoint, which is important to me because I’ll have a craving for a burger only every 4 months or so and it better not suck when I get the motherfucker. Although, the only time it has disappointed is when I was eating meat. Oh, and the veggie burgers on the Amtrak. Ha. Next time packing more than just vodka and whiskey if I am going to be on a train for more than 30 hours
Kakihara responding to a
comment by md2
04.16.10 - 2:09 pm
reply
-->
Ridazz Roulette!
Timothy Hay seems to be popular...