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The legislature finds that there is a compelling interest in the cooperative enforcement of federal immigration laws throughout all of Arizona. The legislature declares that the intent of this act is to make attrition through enforcement the public policy of all state and local government agencies in Arizona. The provisions of this act are intended to work together to discourage and deter the unlawful entry and presence of aliens and economic activity by persons unlawfully present in the United States.
FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). IF AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IS CONVICTED OF A VIOLATION OF STATE OR LOCAL LAW, ON DISCHARGE FROM IMPRISONMENT OR ASSESSMENT OF ANY FINE THAT IS IMPOSED, THE ALIEN SHALL BE TRANSFERRED IMMEDIATELY TO THE CUSTODY OF THE UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT OR THE UNITED STATES CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION.
Dedicated818... I hope your bike gets stolen.
"Just as it did two decades ago when it refused to observe Martin Luther King Jr. Day, Arizona has again chosen to isolate itself from the rest of the nation. Our most appropriate response is to assure that their isolation is tangible rather than merely symbolic."
This law is so unconstitutional and not much different from the Patriot Act (the patriot act, sheesh... i can't even type that word without wanting to laugh). The irony in this is that everyone has hired an undocumented (not illegal) worker every now and then, pays them chump change for some medial work that otherwise they'd over pay for, and never complained. Shit, a lot of the Congress people would have to part ways with a lot of their "employees."
Actually the Nation as a whole is sick of illegal aliens.
You folks are just misguided and emotional because of your demographics.
How is it violating human rights if your asked for identification when you
commit a offense ? If your legal you can get a drivers license or a Id card.
Being questioned, cited, arrested for loitering has been around long before
the illegals became a issue.
Even citizens can be detained with out proper Id after 9/11
also that bill targets employers which is the main cause of the problem.
Go ahead and do your pathetic personal attacks on me, I really don't care
so just because some people are inherently bad and have bad intentions means that we should group them all together and punish them all the same?
i'm not saying i support illegal immigration but this is completely the wrong way to do it....... i believe that we need to change our immigration policy (an idea which you never have brought up) because immigrants are such an integral part of our lives and communites and economy. there are many many many many good immigrants. i dont necessarily think that this bill is a bad thing in it's own context, but thinking about the implications it has considering our country and states' immigration policy, it's a bad thing. all the workforce arizona could lose....
i dont know enough about this subject to really adequately argue anything, but this bill gives racist law enforcement officers an incredible amount of leniency to profile unfairly...."reasonable" suspicion is a leniency in itself.
Wow. I almost don't know how to respond to @Dedicated818, it's so beyond my way of thinking. When it comes to human beings, don't think of another human being as "other" or "Them" just because that person lives across something as arbitrary as a border. That's whatever the opposite of humanitarian is.
"Reasonable suspicion" is nothing - cops barely have to show anything to say that they had reasonable suspicion. I know this because in law school I wrote about the 4th Amendment implications of border checkpoints. This truly does open up not just the potential but the extreme likelihood that law enforcement will start racial profiling. THIS IS NOT OKAY.
Your questions don't have anything to do with constitutionality of this law, and are distracting rather than on point. Regardless, what you are saying is that human beings working in other countries without their papers (which both I and my sister have done in Spain) should have fewer human rights than citizens. And that's fucked up.
Tea Bag rhetoric coming from a birther is status quo, but you should look up some facts:
Ruben G. Rumbaut, coauthor of "The Myth of Immigrant Criminality" study, said: "The misperception that immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, are responsible for higher crime rates is deeply rooted in American public opinion and is sustained by media anecdotes and popular myth." According to Rumbaut, a sociology professor at the University of California at Irvine, "This perception is not supported empirically. In fact, it is refuted by the preponderance of scientific evidence."
The Immigration Policy Center study found that:
* At the same time that immigration—especially undocumented immigration—has reached or surpassed historic highs, crime rates have declined, notably in cities with large numbers of undocumented immigrants, including border cities like El Paso and San Diego.
* Incarceration rate for native-born men in the 18-39 age group was five times higher than for foreign-born men in the same age group.
* Data from the census and other sources show that for every ethnic group, incarceration rates among young men are lowest for immigrants, even those who are least educated and least acculturated.
As the study noted, the fact that many immigrants enter the country illegally is framed by anti-immigration forces as an assault on the "rule of law," thereby reinforcing the false impression that immigration and criminality are linked.
Foldie responding to a comment by Dedicated818
04.27.10 - 2:40 pm
Also, why should the individuals suffer? Do you know how many businesses actually recruit in Mexico? That in order to keep things easy on themselves, they actually sacrifice a certain small percentage to the INS to be deported? Why doesn't anybody do anything to these businesses?
ALSO, the LAPD used to have a policy (I suspect it still has it, but I'm not sure - the last I heard anything about was in law school, in 2002) specifically prohibiting cops from asking about a person's immigration status.
Why, you might ask?
Because one law enforcement takes over immigration as well, illegal immigrants who are victims of crimes simply won't call the cops, because they won't want to be deported. So not only does this law encourage racial profiling, it will facilitate the creation of a class of HUMAN BEINGS that will be too scared to ask for justice when they have been raped, when their loved ones have been hurt, when they have been wronged.
People are people - just because someone is working without documentation doesn't change the fact that that person is flesh and blood and bone, with a heart and a mind, just like you. Fuck.
i believe its that he thinks only US citizens should be the ones allowed to benefit from the law enforcement that the citizens pay for. you know, because only people lucky enough to be born here should be allowed to be here, right?
Why, thank you. Although I suspect he just didn't want to get into it, more like it. Not hitting up critical mass because I crashed on April 1 (just me and my bike...totally ridiculous crash) and fractured my collar bone and partially tore a ligament in my shoulder. But I'll be back!
Anyways, back on topic, if anyone wants to read the full text of SB 1070, it's here:
Better border enforcement and policies towards employers in regards to illegal hiring would've been some better choices over this bill.
But with most of the military trying to spread "so-called" democracy overseas and many employers too lazy to shuffle through any more paperwork than they have to, some level government will always intervene and put a half-assed measure through in a matter of dire impatience and frustration with the way everyone else is moving about the matters at hand.
The way I see it, temporary(1-2yr) work-visa for any illegal caught in a sweep and taxes taken out of any money earned.
Within that time frame, they should've been able to pick up the English language to a far extent and also decided on whether they really want to consider the US their permanent home.
If they want to stay, take the test, get indoctrinated and allow family to come here only through official channels.
If not, there's the door kid.
In my case, I was only born in Illinois due to the fact that my mom didn't really like her family(or my dad for that matter) and hooked up with the first whiteboy she ran into.
So, many come here seeking a better opportunity, others just come here because their home-life blows.
Come to think of it, I never really hear of any mass-exodus out of Malaysia.
Phillipines, Indonesia, Thailand, and places like that, but never there.
Actually the Nation as a whole is sick of illegal aliens.
You folks are just misguided and emotional because of your demographics.
Don't speak for me. And what is my demographic?
How is it violating human rights if your asked for identification when you
commit a offense ? If your legal you can get a drivers license or a Id card.
This law isn't limited to those who have or are suspected of committing a crime. It specifically says that law enforcement MUST ask anyone they suspect of being illegal for papers verifying their status. That's NOT the same as asking for ID, btw.
Being questioned, cited, arrested for loitering has been around long before
the illegals became a issue.
Cool, this has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
Even citizens can be detained with out proper Id after 9/11
Wrong.
also that bill targets employers which is the main cause of the problem.
Wrong again. The bill targets specifically the immigrants themselves and to portray it otherwise is borderline lunacy.
Go ahead and do your pathetic personal attacks on me, I really don't care
1300 Illegals recently found in an ICE on-site audit of the population of the Orange County Jail. (Lets not get into what crimes they committed to be there) 460,000 illegals living in Arizona. Plenty more than that in CA.
Your tax dollars at work people. Unless you don't pay taxes, which would explain why you may not care. I'm sure you've all seen statistics of what it costs to keep any individual in jail for any amount of time. So don't complain about state and local governments being broke please.
This law is focused on crime, strips away the bullshit don't ask, don't tell, fills the void the federal government has left by not enforcing the laws on the books in any meaningful way. I wonder if the fine citizen who shot one of our ridazz in the avenues neighborhood last year is a citizen? Who would complain if such a law took him/her off the street and deported them, as opposed to 3 square meals, TV, gym equipment, and the other comforts of US Prisons compared to foreign equivalents. Only to be released on our streets again. The police shouldn't even be allowed to ask such things!!!! Criminals have rights too!!!! Please.
If you don't have ID when stopped by the police and they believe you have committed a crime, they can take you go to jail until they figure out who you are to their satisfaction. Period. Citizen or not. No matter what race, color, or religion. This is known as "failure to identify".
Currently identifying people in the country illegally is hampered by this ridiculous don't ask don't tell policy inherently enforced upon local law enforcement. (Don't concern yourself, its a federal issue). This policy exists because as Ms. Stephanie pointed out, illegals will prey upon other illegals if they feel they can't/won't call the police for fear of being deported. Thats the whole philosophy behind why state and local law enforcement don't get involved in immigration issues. This philosophy has hamstrung our local police departments for decades. Enough is enough.
Illegals aren't any different. This law just cuts through the don't ask, don't tell nonsense. There is nothing in this law that allows or encourages random stops of Mexicans (or anyone else). Thats media political hyped up nonsense. If you commit a crime, they are allowed to verify your citizenship and ship your ass out of here in an expeditiious manner if you arent here legally, thats all. That's what its about. Today in California, law enforcement cannot do this without waiting for ICE to wander through the prisons verifying who is here legally and who isnt. This law is NOT about trolling for illegals randomly or through racial profiling methods. The crime or suspicion has to come first. As opposed to not asking, and allowing foreign illegal criminals to languish in our overcrowded penal system on YOUR DIME (if you pay taxes).
Arizona's deficit is 2 billion. California's is off the charts. But our State and Local politicians in California are pandering to their demographic to gain local votes off whats occuring in other states. Pathetic. Like California doesnt have enough problems we have to stick our nose in their business. Typical. Point the finger elsewhere while your duties, responsibilities, constituency, and local affairs are in total disarray. That pisses me off a lot more than this law. Its a disease thats strangling this country. Lack of accountability on any level.
If the federal government was handling our borders and immigration policies better, this would not be necssary, but since they aren't, we are going to see a lot more of this on the state and local levels. (State and Local governments are already lining up and drafting similar legistlation).
Every law enforcement entity since the dawn of governement has engaged in profiling. The reason why? Its effective.
And yes they profile the right-wing nutso white folk militias who think the federal government is out to enslave us all as well.
Right and wrong, legal and Illegal, these aren't races, religions, or colors. Media and political hype clouding the issue and causing fervent knee-jerk reactions amongst the populous.
I'm all for better solutions than this one, but I can't fault Arizona for being fed up and passing this law to bring attention to and demanding action on an issue that desperately needs it.
Wow, all that without directly talking shit to anyone or calling anyone out.
We're all entitled to our opinions :) Treat each other with respect, its a good personal policy.
But I doubt we'll be having a support AZ SB 1070 ride in Arizona anytime soon :p
p.s. the wiki clearly indicates the supreme court hasnt ruled on the constitutionality of any of these state laws ... thats probably coming next ... but of course they take FOREVER to do anything ...
The wiki wasnt the source of my essay, my personal opinions were. The wiki merely indicates numerous states already have laws on the books requiring everyone, citizen or not, to identify themselves with government issued paper.
i'm interested in anyone's opinion who is willing to post it. I'm just one individual, and probably a minority opinion on these forums, I realize that.
Not interested in fuck yous, name calling, wishing peoples bikes get stolen, etc.... thats weak sauce.
Second: that's a pretty long essay for what boils down to "I don't give a shit about the Constitution."
Immigration is a federal issue, constitutionally. Period.
Nothing in SB 1070 limits questioning to those suspected of committing a crime. It says police MUST investigate the immigration status of anyone reasonably suspected of being an illegal immigrant. That's it. It doesn't say "ok cops, you can ask those people you arrested for breaking windows if they might not be here legally."
You are ok with a law that requires EVERYONE to constantly carry papers saying they are legal citizens. FUCK that. That is also unconstitutional. This isn't a fucking business issue.
Here is the actual text from the bill. You point out where it says it is limited to someone who has already committed or is suspected of having committed a crime.
"B. For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation. "
You say let's talk about the truth and then you start talking about crazy shit.
This law is illegal constitutionally and is an invasion of privacy but lucky you, you're white, it won't affect you! You do realize this law affects perfectly legal citizens as well, right?
I'm not sure where anyone in this thread made the assertion that all white people were racist, or that all hispanics aren't.
So how about instead of bringing up some stupid strawman about La Raza or whatever else you're afraid of, you talk about the law itself and its fundamental flaws.
This is like that middle school joke where you ask someone if their parents know they're gay. and they say no and you go "omg you didn't tell them yet?"
1. I've never represented myself as a "constitutionalist."
2. Those in favor of this moronic bill do.
3. President Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a legal, natural born citizen of our country.
4. For real though this bill is stupid and so are you.
as a side note you should be more polite with others who have different opinions,
as you really do not look like you could back up your mouth in person.
"For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official "
Good thing we have entities like the ACLU to regulate our government. When the initial uproar dies down there will be MANY eyes watching what actually goes on in Arizona as a result of this law, on every level. The ACLU would be more than happy to bankrupt Arizona with a zealous defense of citizens rights and I think would easily secure an enforcement injuction against the State with slightest evidence of abuse.
If this turns into wholesale questioning on a racially profiled basis for the sole purpose of deporting illegals I would be dismayed and surprised. I don't think people would stand for that, or expect that from this. I'm personally trusting of the police in general, believe in the integrity of a majority of them, am not a hater, and sympathize with the difficulty of their job when they pull me over. I've had more encounters with the police in my life than I care to remember.
I think the intent is to streamline the criminal justice end of things and send a message to Washington. Inaction in Washington is costing the states billions and times are tough. This is a deperate measure, no doubt.
ChaosRR responding to a comment by monovsstereo
04.28.10 - 10:04 pm
So is most of this country. We're seriously fucked.
This bullshit is really pulling the racist idiots out of the woodwork. Prepare to deal with these fucks even more intensely in the near future. It's going to get more nasty before it improves.
On the other hand, I'm beginning to want to shut this all out and just enjoy life as long as I am still able to...
Wow. It's all really fucking depressing:
Ignorance, Intolerance, and Self Importance.
Joe Borfo responding to a comment by monovsstereo
04.28.10 - 10:04 pm
Apparently the Sheriff of Pima, which is Tuscon area of Southern AZ and a huge chunk of the border, says he's not enforcing it unless a court order forces him to. Brave elected official. And a white guy!
So its off the courts on day one! I love this country!!
I love how you refuse to consider any of the issues with this law and just basically say "well I don't think any of the cops will reallllly abuse the power granted/required of them in this law."
Having 1st hand experience being a victim of DUI illegals.
This has happened to me twice over the years.
Both times the offender was drunk as a skunk, no ID, no registration, no insurance.
Both times the police took a report and gave me a copy for my insurance.
Both times the offenders totaled beater Honda was towed.
Both times the illegal Mexican National was free to go because of no ID.
This is the true aspect of LAPDs special order 40, illegals are exempt,
citizens with ID are not.
Jesus Christ you are fucking stupid. I mean you are SOUL-CRUSHINGLY stupid.
It depresses me that you are out there every day dumbing things down, dragging down those around you. You are out there every day threatening violence to people that use language that you disagree with.
Fuck racists and fuck you (guess I got you twice there).
What in the fuck are you babbling on about now?
How could the officer possibly know what country this person was from with no ID?
Where did I state that driving without a driver's license is legal or even acceptable?
Where am I justifying the illegal activity of anyone?
The whole point is this stupid fucking law discriminates against LEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND CITIZENS OF HISPANIC DESCENT.
Do you understand that? I assume you don't but please just give me the faintest glimmer of hope.
those same issue(s) exist with many laws already on the books....
There will always need to be a balance, thats why the judicial and executive powers are seperate. Arizona has now forced the issue to center stage. (Until the media move on, which will probably be 48 hours or less).
I hope the court process(es) to come produce a better solution, and believe that they will. Constitutionality will obviously be a key point of debate.
Don't forget the 1st and 4th ammendments were written long before races, or even women were considered equal or had any say in anything. Everything is subject to evolutionary interpretation. That might as well have been the stone age when it comes to equality and human rights issues.
I see immigration as a double-edged sword ... immigration is what built and made this country great, but in the modern 21st century world unbridled immigration has the capacity to destroy and make things not so great... balance is needed.
Most European countries are struggling with these same issues, its not about US/Mex relations. But the media feeds the frenzy.
Yo what the fuck are you talking about? Have you ever heard of something called "slavery"? Perhaps a little something called the "3/5th rule"? You think the constitution was written before racial issues existed? UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
No wait. You're trying to use that in defense of an obviously racist law, that is unconstitutional even with your dumb argument? HOLY FUCK.
Please see the attached photo for further instructions.
The Glenn Beck/Rush Limbaugh world you live in isn't the utopia dream you think it is. The reality is status quo on immigration will be what it is today.
Why didn't the repugs do anything on immigration when Reagen or Bushy the 1st or bush the 2nd were in office?
Corporations want to import cheap labor. This will not change. Are you willing to pay the market rate for a goods produced by living wage jobs.
Racism really sucks.........
Foldie responding to a comment by Dedicated818
04.28.10 - 11:12 pm
there is no way to 'enforce' such a law without accounting for one's own personal views. i guess arizona thinks the legal system should only operate with the well being of citizens in mind. but seriously think of the cop that is thinking 'pop the first hispanic dude in sight tuesdays', some cops won't bother enforcing this rule because of their moral objection, and other cops will add this as another page of the miranda rights.
technology is going to big brother the police the same way it does the rest of us
how's that for a wacko theory! (or not)
LAPD just rolled out their first set of modern in-car cameras/mics, court ordered from the Rodney King fiasco I think. Took em 20 years but here it is.
(The last two paragraphs are what is relevant to this thread)
04/20/10 LA Times -
LAPD set to install video cameras in patrol cars
April 20, 2010 | 1:26 pm
After many missteps and technical glitches, the Los Angeles Police Department will soon launch a long-awaited plan to install video cameras in patrol cars, a department official said Tuesday.
Officers in the LAPD's Southeast Division are scheduled to use the windshield-mounted cameras for the first time Sunday, Chief Technology Officer Maggie Goodrich said in a presentation to the Los Angeles Police Commission.
Goodrich said the cameras performed well during recent tests by a small group of officers. If the planned roll-out in the Southeast Division goes smoothly, it would be extended to the nearby 77th Street Division late next month and eventually to the remaining divisions in the department's South Bureau, she said.
City lawmakers to date have earmarked about $5 million for the project -- sufficient funds to outfit only one of the department's four bureaus. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa and several city council members have voiced strong support for the cameras, but it remains to be seen whether the city, which is struggling to resolve a mammoth budget shortfall, will allot enough money in coming years to keep the camera project alive.
Calls for putting cameras in patrol cars date back nearly two decades. Over the years, several pilot programs fizzled amid budget constraints and uneven political support. In recent years the idea gained new momentum as department officials and commission members looked to deal with long-standing claims that officers unfairly and disproportionately target minorities during traffic and pedestrian stops.
The cameras, which will capture video and audio of such encounters, are viewed as a vital tool for fulfilling a court order to guard against such racial profiling, as well as for protecting cops against bogus claims of abuse made by people during stops.
Dude, I'm speechless. Arguing with you would be like trying to convince a rock that it's made of grey - it's impossible in so many ways. Whatever model, or mode of thinking that is running through your head, or any politician in Arizona for that matter, is something a lot of us probably can't comprehend, much less try to convince otherwise - logical fallacies anyone?
So true as I was profiled by a Black Officer and given false charges
$50,000.00 bail attempted murder.
All I did was go to work that day and defend myself against a strong arm robbery.
The assailant snivilling pulled the race card when the police got there.
At that time I looked like a biker, buffed,long hair, enginer boots, and greasy jeans.
Guilty ! for being White and kicking ass.
“I think we should catch ’em, we should document ’em, make sure we know where they are and where they are going,†said Pat Bertroche, an Urbandale physician. “I actually support microchipping them. I can microchip my dog so I can find it. Why can’t I microchip an illegal?
“That’s not a popular thing to say, but it’s a lot cheaper than building a fence they can tunnel under,†Bertroche said.
Dude, it's 2010. All birth information is printed by computers now. When was the last time you got a copy of your birth certificate? You're not going to get a ditto with a purple stamp anymore, you get computer print-outs. Using your logic, why should I believe yours is real?
This stupid subject is off topic anyway. It has nothing to do with that stupid Arizona legislation. You're the one spewing irrelevant bullshit about "illegal" presidents. Not me, I just looked into it and found how stupid it is to believe that crap. Ever heard of the moving goalpost?
Honestly, I find it sad that your remarks and beliefs are fueled by the racist treatment that you received, apparently, a long time ago. I don't know you, but I recognize your name. You've been part of the Ridazz Community for a long time. So it would be safe to assume that you aren't racist or prejudice in anyway, or you'd have nothing to do with Ridazz, it being so multi-ethnic and multi-cultural. I would also assume that you treat everyone you meet with respect and with the courtesy that they each be judged individually, by their own individual actions and not as a group.
Unfortunately, we're back on topic here, a lot of us believe that SB 1070 legitimizes racial profiling. It allows law enforcement to stop anyone that is suspect of being an illegal. And considering that a majority of, your so call illegals, are of color - who do you think they're going to stop? Not that illegal Canadian, that speaks perfect American English. Or that Englishman for that matter.
On top of that, a lot of us don't recognize national borders in the first place. A lot of us believe that human mobility is a fundamental human right. It's right up there with Freedom of Association and Freedom of Expression. All basic human rights - you know, liberty.
Hey retard, did you miss where I said in this thread that one of the main problems with this law is that it FUCKS WITH THE HUMAN RIGHTS OF AMERICAN CITIZENS?
For fuck's sake. At least read the thread if you're going to continue to post your mindless bullshit on it.
I guess this is one of the many threads that goes to show just how politically uneven everyone here is.
One screams "effective enforcement", all others scream "racism" and launch an all-out assault on a small set.
If hits(physical attacks on ONE person) are carried out on rides due to a law that doesn't even have anything to do with CA, then everyone has truly let their emotions get the best of them and everyone will have lost.
So lets squash this politically divided beef and toss it into the trash until it crosses the Colorado, which by the majority of the political thinking in this state, WILL NOT.
Sprint-contests, sanctioned boxing match, "breath-holding" contest in a dunk-tank.
As for myself, I'm simply staying put because I have no reason to go through AZ in the near-future.
Not because I'm scared to death of some leech with a piece of steel and a badge pulling me over because I look like Swamp Thing.
what? Seriously? This has everything to do with the violation of basic human rights. You are the one that keeps mentioning irrelevant and illogical fallacies as arguments to support your belief. I could point out each and every one of them but it would take all day and it would be pointless. I tried to reason with you but you're clearly not having it. I'd rather argue with a rock.
Nah I am done too. Can't talk logic or basic human decency with these teabag racists. After all they believe like Sarah Palin that God made them superior.
Foldie responding to a comment by the reverend dak
04.29.10 - 8:53 am
it's so hard for me to pick a clear side on this issue because there's so many valid points :[
clearly we cant just let everyone in..... but at the same time.... fuck..........
i mean this bill pretty much makes it alot easier to enforce the actual law we have that illegal immigrants shouldn't be here.... but the laws we have in washington on immigration are in desperate need for revision... so in reality we should be changing those and not bringing in this bill that will inevitably cause racial profiling and enforcement of laws that are bad in the first place..... but only time can tell....
stop fighting you pussies..... just because someone is closed-minded and ignorant doesn't mean you need to attack them on the interwebz.... let them think the way they want, arguing with them will not change the way they think.........
"Thanks Eddie for posting this thread no B.S.
It has made me realize just how racist I am.
At least I gave you the perspective of the old angry White guy.
What is the solution ?"
Dedicated818
responding to a comment by eddieboyinla
03.29.10 - 6:25 pm
I could care less if you like me or not
This thread did help me realize my racism
Dedicated818
responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
03.29.10 - 7:21 pm
----
For: Ms Steph and Dak...
md2 responding to a comment by the reverend dak
04.29.10 - 11:20 am
Wow! I've missed a lot in this thread! I have a feeling it's going to depress me. I'm already aggravated by this statement from Chaos whoever, waaaay up there:
"Your tax dollars at work people. Unless you don't pay taxes, which would explain why you may not care. I'm sure you've all seen statistics of what it costs to keep any individual in jail for any amount of time. So don't complain about state and local governments being broke please."
I am so fucking sick and tired of these assumptions. Dedicated hate-one-hate making the assumptions about demographics, like (1) only one particular demographic could possibly find this law hateful, and (2) the fact that only that demographic finds the law hateful invalidates that law. The first assumption is ignorant and the second one is blatantly racist.
Similarly, the assumption that because a person disagrees with this law it means they are of a particular non-working, non-tax paying demographic is equally as ignorant. I paid a FUCKLOAD of taxes last year. And do you know what I care about? I care that my taxes get wasted because racist bullshit laws like this exist to put people in jail in the first place. I don't want my taxes going to support racist cops arresting people for stupid shit like marijuana laws. THAT's the BULLSHIT.
"This policy exists because as Ms. Stephanie pointed out, illegals will prey upon other illegals if they feel they can't/won't call the police for fear of being deported."
It's on, now.
That's NOT what I said. I said that undocumented people* can be preyed upon. I DID NOT say that undocumented people would prey on other undocumented people.
Cops can and have preyed upon undocumented people, for example. EVER HEARD OF THE FUCKING RAMPART SCANDAL? Undocuments people can be preyed upon by racist citizens such as sweatshop employers who work undocumented laborers to the bone and then don't pay them - this happens all the time. ALL THE TIME. Just go talk to Bet Tzedek Legal Services or Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles.
Also, undocumented people will be afraid to help law enforcement solve crimes committed by people here legally, whether or not the undocumented people are victims.
I have a lunch meeting, but I'll be back to this thread, you better fucking believe it.
*I almost got suckered into responding in kind by using the word "illegals" but I caught myself. I want to apologize ahead of time to everybody if I slip and use that word, or the word alien, in response to the hate. I hate those words, but I found myself using the word because they used it.
ChaosRR is a good dude, as far as I know. I honestly doubt he is racist or to be grouped with D818 to much.
He has his opinion, but I don't think it stems from disgust and some irrational motives that drive D818. D818 really exposed himself in the "A Racist?" thread.
Just to be fair, I think Chaos was referring to youngsters chiming in about the subject. I dont think he meant everyone.
Anyhow... just don't want my posts reposts of D818 to get muddied with who ChaosRR is.
Two very different people
md2 responding to a comment by Ms. Stephanie
04.29.10 - 11:42 am
I have close friends of every Race and Religion more so than I have White friends.
But I still admit to stereotyping and being Racist
You should do the same
As your shaping my opinion of your Racism
Dedicated818
responding to a comment by markd
03.30.10 - 3:02 pm
---
Full quote... and yes, we're all still wondering what the other half refers to. He still hasn't explained.
This is the type of guy who when he finds something disagreeable about himself, tries to implicate everyone else with being the same... its a defense mechanism. Let's not fall for it.
md2 responding to a comment by Dedicated818
04.29.10 - 12:14 pm
Interestingly some of the language in the AZ bill was apparently taken directly from the federal statutes on the books that aren't enforced, regarding immigrants carrying paperwork. There is plenty in this bill about prosecuting those who employ and/or take advantage of illegal immigrants as well. Wish I had more time to research the similarities to existing federal law.
Did you ever try getting that racist stuff worked out? Or are you just letting us all know you're comfortable with it?
And you know honestly, I was largely upset about your comments, because you were one of the few mountain bike enthusiast on the threads. Also, i really wanted to do your Reseda to the Sea Challenge. It was very disappointing to read your comments because I was really hyping up your ride to friends and co-workers and I made plans to attend.
Then you dropped all this crap about Mexicans. What the hell do you want from MR at this point? I don't get it. You have no educated points, you mean the shit you say; its not a joke, and you largely ignore anyone who responds to you with an intelligent response.
Yes, I said I would let Velo Cult and other attendees know about your comments IF the comments continued. It wasn't a threat, I was hoping you would care -- but again, I think you're okay with calling yourself RACIST, having racism.. or whatever
Why not just leave?
md2 responding to a comment by Dedicated818
04.29.10 - 12:32 pm
The biggest, gaping, blatant and glaring problem with this bill has everything to do with words _Reasonable Suspicion_. It's all over the bill. Reasonable Suspicion skews the scales of Justice in ridiculous and obscene ways. It over-rides basic constitutional rights, such as Innocent until proven guilty BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT. Probable Cause, which has its own problems, is totally bumped for the even more simplistic and abusable Reasonable Suspicion. It's FUCKED UP, unfair and inhuman - BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS. Precedence has been set for decades, and this bill is going to over-ride it, well in Arizona anyway. If something like this was even remotely considered in California, there would be all kinds of problems. I'll be on the front-line fighting that shit.
People are trying to turn this country in Gestapo/Iron Curtain style police states, where we have to carry _papers_ at all times. FUCK THAT.
There is no debate here. I really don't understand how people are so happy giving up their rights for so-called security. People actually trying to turn our fucked up consumer driven society into one driven by fear. It blows my mind.
listen... I wanted to to do your ride, but I couldn't make it.
Anyhow, I supported your ass, and was happy you were around to do this stuff.
Then, I read your comments.
Enter: disappointment.
Does that makes sense? For you, I even drew a picture.
I'm not talking to you about this anymore. You're bring up showing up to a vintage bike ride... one of which I dont recall boasting about winning... and secondly has nothing to do with this shit... you're such a waste.
I'm probably just stupid for getting sucked into this shit again...
md2 responding to a comment by Dedicated818
04.29.10 - 12:56 pm
Had I known what I was dealing with I would have addressed him differently.
Sorry all, I apologize for assuming he wasn't racist.
Now I know, I'll just ignore him. Just like I ignored the fucking Nazis that decided that LA was a place to hold a rally, or that "Reclaiming the Southwest" was a good idea for a bunch of Neo-Nazis. Idiots, I ain't falling for that shit.
Everyone should know that confrontation is exactly what they want, to provoke.
Your so right on it being unjust as to the reasonable suspicion aspect.
Yet we all fall under that since the Patriot act which no one
seams to be in protest of after your president reinstated it reneging
on a campaign promise. This bill just allowes Arizona law enforcement to
do what the federal govt should be addressing in the 1st place, and equally
questioning the status of non citizens
Discussing La Raza is a touchy subject. I knew, went to school and worked with several people that identified with LA RAZA and MECHA. Let's just say that not everyone agrees or follows the philosophies of La Raza to the core, or 100%. You can have criticism of general policies of La Raza, but I wouldn't judge individuals any more that I'd judge individuals that follow Catholicism.
The Plan of San Diego, on the other hand, that's BAD ASS. In fact it'd say it's more in their right or claim than it is for the NSM88 to lay claim to the same territories. I assume we're talking about early 1900's.
As they say, I didn't cross the Borders, the Borders crossed us.
the only thing i can think of is that I said he should do a Reseda to the Border Challenge (instead of Reseda to the Sea). I said its his calling.
The La Raza, I can only associate with some jokes I made about his comments. He said shit like, so the argument is that since the land was stolen, white people should pay more taxes to cover the cost of benefits toward natives?"
I believe I said something like: thats about right.
If this is all he's referring to... I'll clear things up
1) I dont think white people should pay more taxes-- it was an obvious joke. (i think Rich people should, hah!)
2) I still dont even know if Reseda to the Border challenge was that funny. I initially thought t was, but my cleverness has its limits.
Whatever... im going dumpster diving... I left my wallet at home.. and wasted time on this shit
md2 responding to a comment by superblueman3
04.29.10 - 1:13 pm
"ChaosRR is a good dude, as far as I know. I honestly doubt he is racist or to be grouped with D818 to much. "
@md2 Thank you for the clarification. It's difficult on a forum, and I get extremely angry about this subject. I don't want to disrespect anyone that doesn't deserve it.
oh my god! communist asians built the carbon fiber bike you're riding.... and they intentionally compromised it's structural integrity in order to wage a secret war against capitalism! oh, the humanity!!!!!
coldcut responding to a comment by Dedicated818
04.29.10 - 1:31 pm
Communist Asians are merely just another pawn in their "get-rich-quick" tactics.
Piss on the domestic labor-force in order to rake in a higher profit for their own, self-indulgent pleasure.
Stop calling YOUR MOMMA'S OBAMA, my president. I didn't vote for that sell-out piece of shit, he's YOUR PRESIDENT, you're the one that recognizes him. Not me.
I voted for Borfo.
And no one here is defending your Patriot Act. Bullshit name, btw. The only Patriots I recognize are from the 1700s, and the football team. (On that note, the only Minutemen I recognize are from the 1700s, and the bad-ass band from 'Peedro.)
And fuck the whole concept of citizens vs non-citizen, that's bullshit too.
Human Rights are all I recognize.
"This bill just allowes Arizona law enforcement to do what the federal govt should be addressing in the 1st place, and equally questioning the status of non citizens" [sic]
Are you kidding me? You're defending a bad law because it's "supposed" to be the Fed's responsibility? That makes no sense. Since you're all Birther, and shit, you're supposed to be a supporter of the Constitution, and the Constitution states that the Federal Gov't is supposed to be hands-off when it comes to local affairs. i.e. not the state's responsibility to enforce federal law.
And equal questioning of citizenship? How do you propose that is supposed to happen without everyone, EVERYONE, having to carry their birth certificate around at all times? So do you detain every tourist without a visa? Do require proof of citizenship for every 911 call? "Oh, sorry. I can't help you report a lost wallet unless you have proof of citizenship". Give me a break. There are many civil and human right violations happening here, it blows my mind. People have right not to be questioned by law enforcement, period - not without PROBABLE CAUSE. Getting caught crawling under the border wall or being found in a Coyote's trunk, those are legitimate reasons to be detained. But this bill allows REASONABLE SUSPICION. So looking like a foreigner will constitute reasonable suspicion, that's all. What else would? Nothing else I can think of. If that's not Racial Profiling, I don't know what is.
When will you guys admit to being the racist you are ?
Dedicated818
04.29.10 - 1:25 pm
I've read through this whole thread now, and I don't understand where that question comes from...unless you are back to feeling put upon because you're "guilty of being white."
People who feel that way are simply finding out what it means to exist in a world where people are actually treated equally. White men have to lose some of their privilege for this world to get better, and when they feel the loss of that privilege, they start crying "reverse racism". It's completely ludicrous.
No, dummy. Recognizing that not all of them follow their dogma 100%. If they did, they wouldn't of worked or made friends with me, at all.
And quit with the racist thing, we get it, you're racist. Therefore we're all racist. Racism is a subjective and relative thing anyway. It's prejudice that matters.
Would you rather I follow this logic?
I hate all Nazis
All Nazis are all White
Therefore I hate all Whites.
So now you trying to impose White guilt on me for questioning
racist Hispanic movements.
and the White privilege statement is ludicrous.
How can Whites be privileged when in fact you have affirmative action
which is a racist program ?
You are the one who is a victim of White guilt.
"what it means to exist in a world where people are actually treated equally." Actually, that was a silly thing for me to say. What I meant was, they're finding out what it takes to take steps toward living in a world where people are treated equally, i.e. losing some of their privilege.
And that's what it comes down to, essentially - the recognition of the privileges and intangible societal benefits you enjoy as a white man, Dedicated Heil 1 Hitler. You don't see that, and if you don't there's nothing we can do. I have witnessed more unfair and unequal treatment of nonwhites by the police. I have seen a cop completely change in demeanor when addressing me - a white woman - after completely disrespecting a black teenager. I have seen cops take 45 minutes to respond to a breaking and entering call in a primarily Mexican neighborhood, knowing full well that if that call had been made in the neighborhood I grew up in - a 95% white, upper middle class neighborhood - the cops would have been there in 8 minutes.
Our criminal justice system has racism prejudice against lower income classes built right into it. 80% of drug users are white people. Are 80% of the drug offenders in prison white?
The cops wield the power of the state, and that is serious power. The people who founded this country - who your tea party brethren are so nostalgic for - curtailed the power of the state because they understood what this power was. The only problem is, like you and all the racist hypocrites like you - they only want the power of the state curtailed so long as it applies to them. Fuck those brown people - as long as cops are only after them, you won't have to suffer any indignities at the hands of the state.
You can support this law and not really care about the Patriot Act because you're not going to suffer those personal indignities. Your a white guy. Essentially, you don't care about other people. You don't care about the shit other people have to go through.
And that video is going to support your argument for the draconian bill? Are you willing to get your ass beat for the same reason? Or, is him being White a reason he _shouldn't_ have been beat? I don't get it.
Again, you're pulling out irrelevant life experiences and/or anecdotes as support for your weak defense of bullshit racist legislation.
You've already admitted that Reasonable Suspicion is unjust, why are you still defending it?
There is a huge difference between guilt - I don't feel guilty - and having empathy. There's a difference between guilt and being able to see the inequalities that exist in our society. You obviously don't see those inequalities. I'm not asking you to feel guilty for enjoying privileges as a white man. I'm just asking you to understand that they're there.
Affirmative action barely exists anymore, which is in many ways unfortunate. It's an imperfect attempt to rectify the effects of the intangible privileges white people and the upper middle classes enjoy, to be sure, but at least it's an attempt.
Rev Dak is just pointing out the illogical fallacy at play.
You seem to be of the opinion that if one undocumented worker drives drunk, then all undocumented workers drive drunk. If one undocumented worker rapes, then all undocumented worker rapes.
If one white man who is a United States citizen molests a little girl, then do all white men who are United States citizens molest little girls?
Whether you're willing to admit it or not, you're not making a logical argument.
Anyways, we've completely gotten off topic (due in large part to your inability to argue logically and stay on focus).
I'm assuming that you replied correctly. Because I asked a question, whether or not I should follow that logic. And you replied with a speculative answer.
Well guess what? No. I don't subscribe to such a flawed logic, you think I do.
Ever heard of the Slippery Slope? It means that if you follow one or some train of thought, it means you follow it all to the end. Not everyone is like that. Most people aren't, in fact. You're apparently not, because you claim to have friends of many races (Although some people would consider that statement alone to be racist, as if you're "OK" because you have ethnic friends.)
My point is that not everyone is as racist as you are trying hard not to be.
text of complaint
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/04/29/escobar.pdf
The premise of the complaint is simple,
"There are no race-neutral criteria by which a police officer can determine who may or may not be in the country illegally."
Thats pretty hard to argue with. This law is going to end up in the trashbin. Getting the attention of lawmakers in Washington is probably the only effect it will end up having.
It seems you guys are dead set on portraying me as a racist because I
have a different point of view. Being that I would like to see laws enforced
regarding illegal immigration. So in review did I really make racist statements
or am I just being portrayed as such because of an opinion ? When I ask about
the racism in the Hispanic community I am also deemed a racist, seems like a
double standard. Then along with the responses derogatory names such as
Pee wee are used. This just shows how narrow minded this groups thinking is
"It seems you guys are dead set on portraying me as a racist because I
have a different point of view."
That's not true. You've said a number of things that are based on racist assumptions. A person doesn't have to come out and say "I hate Mexicans" to be racist, or to say "All women should be barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen" to be sexist.
"When I ask about the racism in the Hispanic community I am also deemed a racist, seems like a double standard."
Again, no one came to the conclusion that you are racist because you asked about La Raza (which is what I'm assuming you're referring to here). It's because of statements you've made.
Anyways, what are you saying - that if there are racists in one race, it's okay for another race to be racist? That doesn't make any sense. Whether racism exists in the Hispanic community has absolutely no bearing on what we're discussing. Again, it's illogical and distracting from the point at hand.
Another interesting document on the subject, the 2006 recommendations of major police chiefs around the country, includinb Bratton, Baca, the sheriff of Pima, etc..
Quotes from the Racist Thread helped me conclude you are a racist. And your own words were leading up to that belief before that. I don't care that you're racist, in fact I was accepting that your racism is what fuels your point of view. I'm merely recognizing it.
You're the one stating, over and over, that you're racist and that we're the ones not admitting it. I was just agreeing with you but just clarifying that we're not all as racist as you. But I'm only speaking for myself.
As a group, I guess we're narrow minded, because we are trying to be. We're staying on topic and trying to discuss the SB 1070. While you are the one that keeps digressing. Such as the proper usage of retard, it's irrelevant.
Sorry for calling you a dummy, I'm trying to use soft insults. I try not to use names, but I couldn't help myself.
And I didn't complete the pee-wee statement. I was going to quote the infamous comeback by Pee-wee Herman, "I know you are, but what am I." But I omitted it. Forgive me, I want to retract the comparison.
I just read the entire complaint. It's good, but I don't know how far it will get because it doesn't adequately describe the injury that the plaintiff has suffered. I could be wrong, because I'm a transactional lawyer not a litigator, but before a lawsuit against the law can be filed and actually make it to trial, a U.S. citizen has to be arrested and claim that his or her constiutional rights were violated or a police officer has to refuse to enforce the law and lose his or her law enforcement certification resulting in the loss of their job. The complaint needs to have a tangible injury to describe.
Racism is relevant to this thread as this is your defense as to why this bill
should not be inforced. Wasn't the word profiling used ?
So I am actually very on point.
When the protesters of this bill wave Mexican flags, hold signs saying
La Raza, and The San Diego plan 2 , it seems a legitimate concern to question this.
What protestors do doesn't speak at all to the argument that the law is unconstitutional because it will result in racial profiling, which is unconstitutional.
Whether there are some protestors against the law who have questionable beliefs - and I'm not necessarily calling them questionable, because I'm not educated enough on them to do so - doesn't make the law itself valid. That makes no sense.
Finally, a law like this is very provoking, and promotes aggression against a particular group of people. If that group of people becomes provoked and feels it must show pride and strength in return, I'm not going to question it. The balance of power is so out of whack in this situation, it's unreal. Making aggressive statements is an attempt to get a feeling of empowerment back. But you have no empathy and understanding of what it means to be disempowered, so you can't possibly understand that.
I never said either of those things. If you are inferring them from my statements, you are once again engaging in logical fallacies. If you would like to clarify why you think I said that, I can clarify to you exactly what logical fallacies you are falling victim to.
Wait - I responded too fast. I never said that poor economically disadvantaged white enjoy intagible benefits, I suspect they do. Race and class intersect in complicated ways, and I'm happy to start getting more complex with my arguments, but it seems like your logic doesn't stand up to the simple ones I'm currently making. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just stating a fact. You would never pass the logic portion of the LSAT, I'll tell you that much.
Jeez, I need to proofread - what I meant to say was, "I never said that poor economically disadvantaged white enjoy intagible benefits, although I suspect they do."
Actually, the history books are full of discussions about the virulent racism of economically disadvantaged whites. In the Jim Crow south, the poor whites acted in violent ways to enforce the social order, which placed them above blacks. Without racism, the economically disadvantaged population was faced with the prospect of being part of the "low class". As long as blacks were considered subhuman, though, they at least enjoyed a certain amount of social privilege - the intangible benefits of whiteness in a racist society.
I have no doubt that shit still exists today, because we still live in a racist society.
Regardless, if there were actually more entry-level, "no-degree required" forms of employment that paid well, I believe there wouldn't be much complaining as there is right now.
As for this thread, it appears to have turned into a "Dedicated818 curb-stomp-a-romp".
I would take RBI's advice and say "take this to a political forum".
But then the jerkoffs indigenous to those boards would jump all over our dicks for not using cars.
What? what? What?! Are we talking about the constitutionality of the bill, or something completely different.
Again, you point out digressions that have nothing to do with the bill in question.
Yeah, so you are seeing reactionary posturing by protesters. So? They're about as ir/relevant to this discussion as your experiences with Black cops and Mexican thieves. They're related, in ways, but completely anecdotal when it comes to whether SB 1070 is constitutional, or just in any way. Can you look at it objectively?
We're not talking about immigration policy in general. We're not going to talk about what I think about existing laws on immigration, and I'm definitely not going to talk about how I feel about how it's being currently enforced in this country. I know we're not going to agree, no matter how much we try, so let's not go there.
We're talking about SB 1070, which you already have agreed that REASONABLE SUSPICION is unjust.
Remember, this whole thread got heated when you said, "LOOKING FORWARD TO CALIFORNIA DOING THE SAME." You might as well pack up and leave now, because it's never going to happen.
You can bitch all you want, if you really want to stop the flow of immigration of this country then maybe you should say something about the neo-liberal policies that this country supports such as NAFTA or CAFTA, instead of supporting this racist law. Maybe you should do some research on the different waves of immigration and why they are caused.
Reserve army of labour
apineda responding to a comment by Dedicated818
04.29.10 - 11:32 pm
Apineda hit it on the head, look at who wrote NAFTA and who benefits from this agreement, also the epic fail WAR on DRUGS, needs to be revisited, drugs need to be legalized along with real immigration reform. It's ignorant to think immigrants do not contribute to our local economy. The drain on social services and even "jailing or deporting" is no where near the contribution immigrants make. Most pay taxes! And can not apply for social services! Education yes, they do get education but shouldn't everyone, Medical shouldn't we all have medical? If you break your arm in France and your am immigrant, its covered. This is one of those smoke screens used for you not to think about the trillions being spent on war and how you are being robbed by corporate amerika and the politicians that made it possible. At least immigration is now on the forefront, too bad the war is now, at least temporarily on the back burner.
As usual the positive aspects of LEGAL immigration and trade agreements
are used as an example of how the illegal immigrant is beneficial.
Always combing the two to justify illegal immigration.
"South Carolina isn't the only state with attempts to copy Arizona's law. A group of conservative state lawmakers in Oklahoma said they also plan to introduce a bill similar to Arizona's. In Texas, Rep. Debbie Riddle, a Republican, said she will introduce a measure similar to the Arizona law in the January legislative session"
Everyone speaks of fairness
Yet is it fair for the people who come hear from all over the globe
to become citizens, go thru due process waiting years for indoctrination,
to have someone cut in line in front of them ?
And what about the double standard of criticizing trade agreements
such as NAFTA, but claim there should be no boarders for individuals ?
Most laws have a group that disagrees with aspects of them,
and actual enforcement is another issue.
You must admit this bill has put the spotlight on what the Federal government
is doing in regards to immigration and boarder enforcement.
You make a lot of assumptions based on your beliefs.
How is it NOT fair for people to want to live where they will feel safe, where they will be able to make a living and care for themselves and their family?
What does citizenship have to do with human rights? Citizenship is just another element of Nationalism. Nationalism is just another form of division and elitism. What does place of birth have to do with human rights? Where, who and how you are born is completely random, it's nothing to be proud of (nor ashamed of.) Why does one random child have more rights than another? Why should they?
What double standards of NAFTA? The human right to mobility has nothing to do with international trade which has nothing to do with human rights, and everything to do with corporate control. Do you find it OK that Corporations have more rights than individuals? I can't believe you even compare the two.
There is nothing to admit and no one was contesting the fact that the bill has put a spotlight on immigration rights and reform.
You're white, and you want your privileges back. Boo-hoo! Guess what? In all fairness, if you believe in fairness, you never earned it. You were just born with it.
btw, how do you feel about English being an Official Language?
Yes you are right.
It HAS put a spotlight on how local governments will pander to bigoted fears if the fed does not come up with real solutions.
I guess your are missing the main point here. Which is that even though you got a huge boner over a crackdown of illegals this legislation is just wrong. Thats why about 75% of the country is against it.
There is no way to identifying and "illegal" person based on looks.
And what this flawed legislation seeks to do just that.
Have you ever been racially profiled by the cops D818?
I haven't, i'm a Guero.
But it happens quite a bit.
Its demoralizing.
I've had good friends in L.A. that have been hassled on the street and questioned for walking around and being black. Not for looking thuggish either. Just for being black.
It happens alot. More than you think.
And its the reason. People are so personally offended by this fucked up law.
The problem is real.
The solutions will always be controversial.
But there is wide agreement that this legislation is just plain bad.
I predict that even this right leaning Supreme court will throw out this legislation.
Feel free to resume with the name calling.
But it doesn't change the fact that this is desperate election year politics.
AZ legislature and Gov. tacked so far right on this that they are looking like assholes to everyone.
And when the rest of the country responds to their ignorance, hate, and poor legislating skills, by boycotting AZ, they will fix it.
Its amazing to me that for all your big brother paranoia you would support a law that allows ANYBODY to be stopped for "looking suspicious" and have to prove citizenship.
Imagine for a second how you would feel showing up to work 2 hours late because the cops pulled you over because you "looked" illegal.
You take a lot for granted D818.
And as such a bold defender of liberty, you should be outraged by this misguided attempt to solve this important problem.
trickmilla responding to a comment by Dedicated818
04.30.10 - 1:17 pm
speaking of fairness, is it fair of you to generalize a whole group of people just by the two incidents you had with them? though both negative, I invite you to reach out and actually meet an immigrant. There are many on here, I am an immigrant.
"And what about the double standard of criticizing trade agreements
such as NAFTA, but claim there should be no boarders for individuals ?"
The effect of NAFTA is to flood the Mexican market with cheap, mass produced, subsidized produce. It makes small farming untenable there just as it is here. When a farmer can't compete, that farmer can't earn a living. So what do some of those individuals who can't make a living do? Come to the United States to try to make enough money to support their families.
Anyways, how could there be a double standard when one thing is about goods and the other is about people?
By the way...
Your concept of "hispanics" hating white people is just absurd.
Have you ever seen mexican TV/ to this day most of the main characters are "white."
This may be news to you but many "hispanics" consider themselves "white".
And if anything my experience with people from central america is that if they are racist, it tends to be directed to people darker than them, rather than people lighter than them.
Of course,
Its impossible to generalize. All people are individuals. And regardless of what we look like we all make individual choices on how to perceive and treat others. And as individuals we have the ability to evolve and change.
But personally. I growing up white ... I have hear so much racist bullshit come from the mouths of friends and family and other people who feel comfortable saying that shit in front of me. The people I know who are latino who I have discussed it with just don't have parallel experiences. UR foolin' ur self man.
trickmilla responding to a comment by Dedicated818
04.30.10 - 1:33 pm
yes 75% statistic is invalid.
I made it up.
But from paying attention to the news it seems relatively few national players are willing to get behind this legislation.
Its interesting that you would assume the guy did something wrong to invoke ICE agents when there is 0 evidence of that.
you got profiled?
For your looks?
Why?
And would you support legislation to encouraged the type of profiling you experienced?
XOXOX
TRICKMILLZ
trickmilla responding to a comment by Dedicated818
04.30.10 - 1:39 pm
I agree with Ms. Stephanie on the NAFTA thing. I mean how can you blame a group of people for coming to this country illegally to make a better life when we have agreements like NAFTA that make sure Mexicans are payed like shit and over worked in unhealthy work conditions just for OUR benefit. We're creating the conditions that make people want to come here! If you were a poor Mexican working in a sweat shop do you think you would have the same opinion on immigration?
buckchin responding to a comment by Ms. Stephanie
04.30.10 - 3:17 pm
I'm not taking sides in this, but I think you should just let this one go.
I mean, it's pretty much turned into a one-sided battle that's just going to continue until the board gets spam-bombed with HTML, or "you know who" decides to pull the plug.
If anything, we should all just wait and see how further things will transpire as it goes along.
I've been profiled my entire life for the simple fact that I'm latino. In fact, just the other day I was standing outside in front of my long drive way when a pair of LA's finest drove up to me and started giving me the 3rd degree: Where do you live? What are you doing here? What do you do for a living? I mean, seriously these were some of the questions I was being bombarded with. I finally had had enough I said, "listen, I live at the end of this long driveway, here's my DL to prove it, now kindly leave me the fuck alone." Shoulda seen the look on their faces when my shit matched/checked out. They ended our conversation by saying something along the lines of "you should be careful, this neighborhood is not safe.."
I must get hassled at least a few times a month, and not just by cops.
With that experience under your belt you would think you'd be able to understand what everyone seems to be saying, but fer whatever reason hasn't quite sunk in.
Fuck this. The idea of just "letting people think and do what they want and see what happens" is what leads to racist shit like this being enacted in the first place.
Sometimes, motherfuckers need to be told that they're dumb as shit.
And guess what D818, you, motherfucker, are dumb as shit.
I thought we were all suppose to be multicultural here. Tolerance people. Hatred between us ain't gettin us nowhere and dedicated818 is gonna think what he thinks, I mean he gets down with the Hell's Angels what do you expect. Nobodys opinion is gonna be swayed here we all have our minds made up about this whether we agree or disagree with it. Race is social concept not a scientific matter really it comes down to the individual. I love all races but loving each indiviual is completely separate. Were all different with our own separate minds so let's put the energy into something that makes a difference cause its definitely not happening on this forum.
By the way I've been pulled over countless time by multiple departments black, white, hispanic, and asian and I don't see race when a cop pulls me over all I see is a black get-up a badge and gun with the same paramilitary style attitude that a lot of departments adopt these days in fact I've probably been pulled over and ticketed and gone to jail than most people just too many times to count. I've been illegally searched by cops of all races even an indian cop in the valley. Does it really matter what race they are not to me. I just brush it off and go home if the cop gives me the choice. Life is too short to stress about white, brown, black, or yellow power and that's for real and no I don't agree with sb 1070 and yes dedicated818 came up with race issue first by sayin "you folks". I've been rear ended by an illegal immgrant before too and I didnt get compensated either but you know what we both lived and that's all that matters to me not some piece of material shit that's gonna hit the junkyard in 20 years anyway.
Read Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Units or Warrior Cops: The Rise of Paramilitarism in American Police Departments. If anything we should come together united against corrupt police and politicians but no were here fighting each other on a forum where we can't even see one anothers faces. Let's face the music were fucked if we continue down this path racial power let's get down to the real issue with real solutions that don't alienate all our citizens and then create more hatred for future generations. Just my thoughts and experiences, a 24 yr old asian whose been to hell and back with the la county and riverside cops and am now livin strong free of bullshit.
I've mentioned getting rid of salaried police forces and replacing them with a call-up force headed by a couple of armed, ADAs.
It's like jury-duty, but a fresh force every week or so, made up of all walks of life.
The only way to solve an issue between different sides is to look for the solution together. Any other way promotes only cycles of hatred and indifference, and it separates us further from any solution.
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Ridazz Roulette!
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Yo what the fuck are you talking about? Have you ever heard of something called "slavery"? Perhaps a little something called the "3/5th rule"? You think the constitution was written before racial issues existed? UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
818 back in the day
The biggest, gaping, blatant and glaring problem with this bill has everything to do with words _Reasonable Suspicion_. It's all over the bill. Reasonable Suspicion skews the scales of Justice in ridiculous and obscene ways. It over-rides basic constitutional rights, such as Innocent until proven guilty BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT. Probable Cause, which has its own problems, is totally bumped for the even more simplistic and abusable Reasonable Suspicion. It's FUCKED UP, unfair and inhuman - BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS. Precedence has been set for decades, and this bill is going to over-ride it, well in Arizona anyway. If something like this was even remotely considered in California, there would be all kinds of problems. I'll be on the front-line fighting that shit.
god, you're so obtuse.
Pigeonholing every Latino as "LA RAZA" is just fucking dense.
The only way to solve an issue between different sides is to look for the solution together. Any other way promotes only cycles of hatred and indifference, and it separates us further from any solution.
This One is For Hate1Hate