Attn: Sgt. Krumer. pt.2
Thread started by
mechazawa at 10.1.10 - 2:38 pm
With the recent, regularly occurring, bike thefts, what will the lapd do about theft?
I do realize there are individuals who are commuting thefts alone but there have to be some that are not. Also, there have to be repeat offenders. It is known, at least to me and a few people that expressed it, that Venice in particullar is a "hot bed" of bike thefts. There may be other places in LA that may be as well. Will there be attempts made by the department to curtail thefts? Will their be stings in the future?
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RE: Bike Thefts
I would like to add that I take great exception to the types of stings that LAPD has done in DTLA just leaving an unlocked bike laying around. Then grabbing the first bum who rides off on it. Iread about at least 2 such stings in the La Times.
Not to excuse the theft of an unlocked bike, but it doesn't take any special skill to do it, it is more of a crime of opportunity.
Yes it will take more effort to wait for an catch a thief who is traveling with tools to cut locks or remove parts, but these are the people who are stealing most of our bikes.
LAPD should be focusing its resources on bike thieves, not sloppy bums who might opportunistically take advantage of an idiot who would leave an unlocked bike laying around in DTLA.
trickmilla10.1.10 - 3:14 pm
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LAPD should be focusing its resources on bike thieves, not sloppy bums who might opportunistically take advantage of an idiot who would leave an unlocked bike laying around in DTLA.
Corrected, your welcome:
LAPD should be focusing its resources on bike thieves, not babysitting a bunch of cyclists on rides.
Foldie responding to a
comment by trickmilla
10.1.10 - 3:24 pm
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+1 to what Trickmilla said. The only important thing that LAPD is catching with these bullshit stings are headlines. Arresting some schmuck who sees an easy come-up outside the CVS and can't resist temptation does nothing to stop the people who are *actively* going around cutting cables, or lurking on group rides hoping to catch someone unaware.
PC responding to a
comment by trickmilla
10.1.10 - 3:50 pm
reply
I will discuss bike thefts with Commander Villegas and the Detectives in the areas where bike thefts are most prevalent.
Bike theft is much more difficult to address than auto theft or theft of electronics. If anyone has suggestions or strategies that they think may be of benefit we will gladly consider them.
Sgt. David Krumer10.1.10 - 11:04 pm
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I'll check on the availability of GPS devices and the feasibility of its suggested application. Thanks!
Sgt. David Krumer10.1.10 - 11:54 pm
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It'll just be like that show "Bait Car," except we won't be able to lock them on the bike. I feel like we could have stakeout days in high-risk areas; however, if a bike gets stolen and we see who is doing it, how do we confront the problem?
Genus10.2.10 - 11:36 am
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How about ?
Using one of your Metro Swat Teams to gun down suspected bike thief's.
You could let the media broadcast it. This would surely make bike thief's think twice.
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.2.10 - 11:54 am
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Its true catching people who steal unlocked bikes will have little effect on the real bike thieves.
I think it would be better to focus on the people who cut locks and commit strong-arm robbery to get bikes.
One area that has been a problem is Pico/Venice bvld through K-town and west-la. I've heard multiple stories of bikes being taken forcibly from their riders along this route and my girlfriend has had to jump off a bus (33/333) multiple times to chase down a thief and get her bike back on the rack.
I know the LAPD has finite resources and that this type of crime is not a priority and i accept that without qualification.... but it wouldn't be that hard to do a few high profile stings and at least let people in that area know that the police are making an effort.
The LAPD has done similar operations I.E. the yearly santa claus crosswalk stings
@Sgt Krumer
Has the LAPD done anything to combat the theft of bicycles from Metro buses while they are in route? I've seen a lot of bikes simply stolen off a metro-bus bike-rack while the owner struggled to get off a crowded bus.
This is the sort of thing that the MTA PD should be dealing with but they seem way more interested in checking tickets and citing people for eating on subway platforms.
stillline10.8.10 - 3:54 pm
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To my knowledge there are no operations or efforts to address bike theft off of the Metro bike racks.
While there is possibly a jurisdication issue (Sheriff's responcible for MTA) I will inquire as to whether we can attempt such an operation.
The limiting factor will be resources. If this were occuring on a weekly basis than it may justify the committment...if it is a once a month occurance or very infrequent (less than 5 in a 3 month period) than it may be impractical to make an attempt.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by stillline
10.8.10 - 4:16 pm
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Or better yet, a syringe in the seat (only deactivated by dead man switch to prevent accidental injection) with some type of high mortality bacilli that infects the thief and brings them near death long enough to be cured and admit their sin?
@borfo
And this is why I'm not involved in medicine, I'd turn into Doctor Moreau.(the Burt Lancaster version).
bentstrider responding to a
comment by Dedicated818
10.8.10 - 4:25 pm
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Have you guys not realized yet that this krumer is full of hot air and empty promises. everytime i check in here and read some question or complaint lodged, this guy will go and "check" on it and "get back" to us or it's not his dept. i've done some searches and can't find a concrete answer or solution he's offered.
he's laughable.
indigis10.8.10 - 5:11 pm
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It sounds like some form of a tracking bike could be used for all the aforementioned problems. Imagine getting an entire Google Maps view of where a stolen bike has been taken, ridden, stored, etc.
http://www.rmtracking.com/gpsproducts/pt-200.php
You could probably stuff that in a seat or maybe even cut open and plant it in a carbon frame.
clearskittles10.8.10 - 5:12 pm
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Oops ...
Having an embed problem ...
Was going to link
THIS VIDEO about NBC tracking down some bike thieves with GPS ...
trickmilla10.8.10 - 5:12 pm
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@Indigis
I Don't really care what solutions he has I just like having a person from the LAPD to talk to. At least now someone from LAPD hears our complaints (i'm tired of going to the inspector generals office) and if no action is taken we can go to the city council and prove that we tried to handle it with the LAPD before we came crying to the city council.
Also I think Krumer has some real love for the cycling community even if he doesn't share our completely biased and sometimes ridiculous opinions.
Do you really think that one guy from LAPD can just flip a switch and meet all your expectations. Maybe you're being a little silly and emotional no?
stillline10.8.10 - 5:24 pm
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If NBC can manage it, LAPD should ask for some pointers.
outerspace responding to a
comment by trickmilla
10.8.10 - 5:30 pm
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" Don't really care what solutions he has I just like having a person from the LAPD to talk to." --- isn't that sweet. i'm glad you have someone now to talk to.
"if no action is taken we can go to the city council and prove that we tried to handle it with the LAPD before we came crying to the city council." ---- when you grow up and figure out how things work in life write back.
"Also I think Krumer has some real love for the cycling community" --- that's nice. and your point is?
"Do you really think that one guy from LAPD can just flip a switch and meet all your expectations." --- you don't seem to get it. i have no expectations from him and he's reached each one.
"Maybe you're being a little silly and emotional no?" ---- yes i agree with you. no.
indigis responding to a
comment by stillline
10.8.10 - 5:31 pm
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@Indigis
Have fun with you naysaying. I'm not going to argue with you.
stillline10.8.10 - 5:34 pm
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stilline, p.s. sorry for my rudeness to you. i know you're on the right side. just disagree with you.
indigis10.8.10 - 5:35 pm
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@Indigis No worries you're welcome to your opinion. Even when it sucks.
stillline10.8.10 - 5:36 pm
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A Sgt Krumer success:
http://bikinginla.wordpress.com/2010/08/27/lapd-intervenes-to-fight-anti-bike-harassment-at-a-highly-personal-level/
Please get back to annoying your neighbors with fireworks and ripping off your tenants, while not helping your friends arrange legal residence in this country. Fighting the good fight.
gregb responding to a
comment by indigis
10.9.10 - 3:34 am
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personally, i think mr krumer is looking to bridge the gap between us ridazz and the law. I dont know him personally, but he seems to be on our side. Until he proves otherwise......im down to listen to him. We all have our opinions though.....all equally valid.
shotgun_mike10.9.10 - 4:02 am
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That link is awesome Greg B.
Nice work Sgt. Krumer.
JB responding to a
comment by gregb
10.10.10 - 9:24 am
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RE: bike theft
PUBLIC EXECUTION .... FIRING SQUAD ... LYNCHINGS .... GILLI TING .... BURNED AT STAKE .... STONING ...............ALL OR ANY OF THAT
OFF WITH THEIR HEADS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Migcycle10.10.10 - 11:11 am
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Be advised, Don't get your hopes up of the LAPD doing anything,
because Juvinile Div. handles bike theft thus giving it a low priority.
Plus the bikes that are recovered are usually sold at auction with the funds
going back to the Department.
Dedicated81810.10.10 - 11:28 am
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Hi Dedicated,
I think you may have been misinformed. Bike theft is a DIvisional Property crime and is handled by detectives at the respective police stations. Recovered bikes are returned to the owner when one can be located. You should have a user identification number somewhere on your bike (or a serial no.) When you report a bike stolen you can provide either and if the number matches a recovered bike we can marry you and the recovered property back up.
Otherwise the bikes would go to auction. The good news is if you see your bike at auction and it matches the description given on the police report you can get it back.
Every effort is made to return ALL property (including bikes) back to their rightful owner.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by Dedicated818
10.10.10 - 5:36 pm
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Hum ?
What your saying all sounds good, but has not been my experience when dealing
with the LAPD and bike theft. Seems your sugar coating the lack of priority the
Dept. gives to bike theft and recovery. So victims of bike theft are notified when
these auctions take place ? Every effort ? Doubtful .
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.11.10 - 12:02 am
reply
Bike theft sucks. I did it before. It's been done to me. But I will say this coming from an ex bike thief: Just get a Kryptonite U Lock..... I have no remorse of what I have done because I did it knowingly and I don't steal anymore because of karma.
Hippy Sippy10.11.10 - 4:30 am
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Unfortunately bike theft is a low priority as it is a property crime...no sugar coating that. I only meant to clarify who would do the investigation and explain the precedure for getting a bike back to its owner.
I do not believe the victims of bike theft are notified of auctions. If a bike matched the victim's description they would be notified before the bike even went to auction.
Hope that clarifies a few things for you.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by Dedicated818
10.11.10 - 11:22 pm
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Seems you must be working for a different Dept. than I have delt with.
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.12.10 - 10:26 am
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Unfortunately bike theft is a low priority as it is a property crime.
Property crime a low priority, eh? Really? So all those man-hours and gallons of fuel (not to mention investment in the technology) that LAPD has spent chasing Lojack activations in its airships are a figment of the collective imagination, then?
PC responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.12.10 - 2:30 pm
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I guess cargo and
motor vehicles count as human beings on the crimes-against-persons/crimes-against-property continuum?
PC responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.12.10 - 2:36 pm
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A position in political office would suite Sgt Krumer as a future job.
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by PC
10.12.10 - 2:37 pm
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He meant to say that "property theft under a certain dollar value or certain cultural value is a low priority."
Cars are definitely more expensive than bikes, no arguing that, and on that basis they deserve to be a higher priority.
What I don't like, but I still have to acknowledge, is that in this society, cars have a much higher cultural value than bicycles because cars are status symbols and bikes are thought of by the overwhelming majority of the populace as toys to play with on the weekend in the park or at the beach. Cars are thought of as VITAL. So the police go to excruciating lengths to recover cars, and could care less if "toys" are stolen.
It's a stupid reason to leave bike thefts unaddressed, I agree more should be done, I'm just explaining because you asked and I'm bored at work.
When bikes have the same dollar value or perceived cultural value as cars, then you will see the police making efforts to recover them.
Comparing bike OR car theft to cargo hauler hijackings is just ... well, it makes you look like you weren't trying very hard. ;p
outerspace10.12.10 - 3:13 pm
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I admire your ability to ask tough questions and point out hypocrisy but your logic is a little off on this one.
wouldn't a more appropriate example be comparing two pieces of property that are of the same value and of the same amount of difficulty to locate. IE if a bike and a car were of the same value and were both equipped with GPS tracking, would both pieces of property be given the same amount of priority? I imagine they would. If anything the cop might be leaning toward finding the bike as it will bring them better press.
Does LAPD give more attention to a non-violently stolen computer, than they do to a non-violently stolen bike?
If a $500 car (sans tracking device) is stolen, do you think it would be an investigative higher priority than a $500 bike?
I'm not going to defend the LAPDs record ... I'm just point out that your reasoning isn't as Perfectly Concise as usual.
trickmilla responding to a
comment by PC
10.12.10 - 3:18 pm
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Guillotine you mean?
And as for attempted and then caught, I'd say we bring back keel-hauling, cat-o-nine tails, five-across-the-eye, the good 'ole fashioned bullwhip, and my personal favorite "The Gunners Daughter".
bentstrider responding to a
comment by Migcycle
10.12.10 - 3:42 pm
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If a $500 car (sans tracking device) is stolen, do you think it would be an investigative higher priority than a $500 bike?
Yes.
PC responding to a
comment by trickmilla
10.12.10 - 3:46 pm
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Cars are definitely more expensive than bikes, no arguing that,
Would you like do-overs on this one? Say yes.
PC responding to a
comment by outerspace
10.12.10 - 3:48 pm
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wouldn't a more appropriate example be comparing two pieces of property that are of the same value and of the same amount of difficulty to locate.
Not that I think you really thought this through, but I'll play anyway.
In fact, let's make it something even harder to locate (because smaller and easier to fence/smuggle) than a bicycle: jewelry.
Imagine that in the past year or two there had been a huge--like significantly greater than 100%--spike in the theft of jewelry in Los Angeles, the approximate value of each piece of which was usually somewhere between $300 and $7,000, with a median value of about $1000. Not museum-quality stuff, then, but decent authentic precious metal/gems of the sort that people often keep in their houses and wear on special occasions. Imagine further that the increase in theft were a matter of general knowledge among jewelry collectors, jewelers, and (to a somewhat lesser degree) the general public.
Now, let's say that these jewelry thefts, which until recently had been mostly nonviolent, had lately begun to take a darker turn, with people being strongarmed or physically assaulted on the street for their rings and chains. Do you think for one minute that the LAPD wouldn't be proactively trying to get to the bottom of it--asking around, running meaningful stings, fishing through Craigslist for suspicious advertisements, tailing people, etc.? Really?
Really?
PC responding to a
comment by trickmilla
10.12.10 - 4:07 pm
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If anything the cop might be leaning toward finding the bike as it will bring them better press.
this seems like material for an Onion article more than anything.
Im kind of scratching my head with this $500 car with a tracking device scenario... this really seems like something you'd see on a car with 50 antennas on the roof, and sticker flames on the doors. Who puts a tracking device on a $500 car?
And why are we asking the police to find our bikes? They can't even
FIND THEIR OWN WEAPONS
I tend to lean toward the monetary value behind theft. It's one thing to spend resources to recover $100 versus 1 million. And its one thing to sentence a colored person to prison longer for stealing $1000, opposed to rich white people who steal millions. Something doesn't add up, and the police help perpetuate this disparity.
md2 responding to a
comment by trickmilla
10.12.10 - 4:09 pm
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Im kind of scratching my head with this $500 car with a tracking device scenario
Breathe, dude. He said *without* a tracking device.
PC responding to a
comment by md2
10.12.10 - 4:12 pm
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hence the head scratching...
md2 responding to a
comment by PC
10.12.10 - 4:17 pm
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Oh yeah? Well, I'll... show... you... some .. head...... wait
md2 responding to a
comment by Joe Borfo
10.12.10 - 4:19 pm
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Its all a lot of speculation.
But I do think that bike theft is being given the appropriate amount of attention considering the seriousness of the crime.
My main concern is if they are going to do stings, that the stings target the appropriate bike thieves ... the ones with tools who premeditatedly seal bikes on a regular basis.
Bike jackings are obviously different than typical bike thefts.
They are typically armed robberies, a violent crime.
You imply there is a connection between bike jackings and bike thefts.
But there is no logical reason to think so. It is a different crime that requires different skills and different tools.
Its clear that bike thefts and bike-jackings have gone up dramatically in recent years.
But so has the number of bikes on the street. I have not seen anything to suggest the relative rate of these thefts has increased at all.
I know it is frustrating to see a lack of action by police.
But there is really no evidence that they place any more priority of non-volent thefts of non-bicycle than a bicycle of equal value.
If you have evidence to the contrary, I will gladly accept it and join you in pressuring the LAPD to apply the law fairly.
LAPD is a political org. I'm not saying that they don't shift priorities based on political pressure. I'm just saying there is no evidence whatsoever that LAPD is ignoring bike thefts in lew of similar property crimes.
I like your scenarios but they don't tell us anything about the facts.
trickmilla responding to a
comment by PC
10.12.10 - 4:42 pm
reply
You imply there is a connection between bike jackings and bike thefts.
But there is no logical reason to think so.
I don't think you could possibly be more wrong about that. Not even if you were trying.
Just as there is/was a connection between carjackings and car thefts--as cars became harder and harder to steal by traditional break-in and hotwiring in the 1980s and 90s, the ballsier thieves began circumventing the alarms and ignition systems by pointing guns at drivers and demanding the keys--there is logical reason to expect bikejackings to increase along with bike theft as more and more thieving individuals and organizations see moneymaking potential in stolen bikes and parts, and as legitimate ways to make money remain scarce. Am I flat-out predicting that this will happen? No. But is there a logical reason for it to happen? Yup.
PC responding to a
comment by trickmilla
10.12.10 - 5:01 pm
reply
Its clear that bike thefts and bike-jackings have gone up dramatically in recent years. But so has the number of bikes on the street. I have not seen anything to suggest the relative rate of these thefts has increased at all.
There were no iPods ten years ago. No iPods were stolen ten years ago. Now there are iPods, and iPods get stolen--but the increase in iPod theft over the last ten years is only attributable to the fact that there are more iPods now than there were then. Should LAPD ignore those too? If your answer is yes, then
you might want to have a talk with the boys downtown...
PC responding to a
comment by trickmilla
10.12.10 - 5:14 pm
reply
Something about bike theft being rampant in Amsterdam....
Joe Borfo responding to a
comment by PC
10.12.10 - 5:16 pm
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When your bike gets stolen you will find out just how much priority it gets.
The LAPD fails in pursuing felony hit and run cases, so what makes you think
they are giving equal time to misdomeaner bike theft ?
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by trickmilla
10.12.10 - 5:27 pm
reply
While monetary value is one of the considerations, a more significant consideration is the ability to follow-up.
CARS:
Most cars have plates on them that are easily visible and in plain view. Officers who are not actively engaged in a particular activity run hundreds of plates and happen across stolen vehicles regularly. We do not need any justification at all for running a plate. If there is GPS/LOJACK we are not fishing so much as responding to an identified location. There is actually very little in the way of investigation. Bikes on the other hand have no readily identifyable number that we can reference. Additionally we would need to inspect the bike to find a serial number (if any) which would mean we need reasonable suspicion to detain the rider. The dynamics of "looking" for a stolen bike and a stolen car are radically different.
COMPUTERS/ELECTRONICS:
Computers and electronics that are stolen would get the same attention (or lack thereof) as a bicycle with some minor exceptions. Pawn Shops are required to give DAILY reports to the LAPD of all items pawned and there corresponding serial numbers. We can match those serial numbers against those that were reported stolen and recover the items. Stolen bikes tend to go to retail and second hand bike shops which do not provide any reports to the LAPD.
JEWELRY:
Unless an item of jewelry is unique or otherwise identifyable (engraved) there is only so much that can be done regardless of its value. Keep in mind that a $20,000 piece of jewelry may be sufficently unusual that some follow-up may be possible. If someone reports a $6,000 diamond solitaire (1kt) ring stolen...it will most likely will not be found as 1kt solitaire rings are very common. If a $1,000 lizard broach pin is stolen it is much more likely to be identified and recovered.
I hope the aforementioned explainations provide some insight.
David
Sgt. David Krumer10.12.10 - 5:46 pm
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One more thing...theft of anything over $400 is a felony. If you were to shoplift an expensive purse or pricy shoes...Felony!
Sgt. David Krumer10.12.10 - 5:49 pm
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Would you like do-overs on this one? Say yes.
Not unless you can show me that the average value of a stolen bicycle these days has exceeded the average value of a stolen motor vehicle.
outerspace responding to a
comment by PC
10.12.10 - 6:23 pm
reply
...or were you referring to my dangling modifier?
outerspace10.12.10 - 6:25 pm
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Hi Everyone,
I promised to follow-up on the citations but did not get a chance to do so today. My apologies, I will look into it when I return to work.
Sgt. David Krumer10.12.10 - 8:36 pm
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I'm not sure how we wandered off onto the topic of following up on actual bike thefts, when the issue at hand was stings and other police operations designed to prevent theft and catch thieves in the act. Perhaps because it's easier to justify the LAPD's who-gives-a-shit attitude toward crimes against cyclists (as distinct from its oh-my-god-civil-order-is-breaking-down attitude toward group rides) when you can use the difficulty of tracking down stolen bikes after the fact as an excuse?
Now, if nobody minds, I'd like to steer the conversation back toward the thing that we were originally talking about. Does the LAPD really think that the recent surge in bike thefts, along with the troubling frequency of high profile bikejackings, does not justify bringing any more resources to bear than a few cutesy headline-grabbing sting operations that don't target real bike thieves? How the holy hell do they manage to free up all of the man-hours necessary to follow Critical Mass around for hours on Friday nights (generally a high-activity, high-crime window of time in LA), and might it not be possible to break off some of those officers and vehicles and use them to do some real stakeouts and undercover operations aimed squarely at hardcore bike thieves?
Actions speak louder than words, and all actions performed by bureaucracies are the result of decisions. It's obvious that the people who make decisions for LAPD have decided that it is more important to follow group bike rides around than it is to prevent bike theft or respond to reports of assaults in progress on cyclists.
PC10.13.10 - 3:44 pm
reply
The answer to your question is obvious.
Low risk revenue from tickets given out to cyclist.
vrs.
High risk encounter with armed gang members.
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by PC
10.13.10 - 3:51 pm
reply
PC, Krumer will get back to you on that. Like on everything else.
indigis10.13.10 - 3:53 pm
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While your question is specific to bike theft, the broader issue is how do we address property crimes in general. What I can say with certainty is that bike thefts get the same attention as any other property crime, is allotted their respective share of the resources, and is investigated according to the same criteria as other property crimes...there is no bias against the cycling community or a calculated decision to ignore bike thefts because of who they affect.
Trickmills indicated that the stings that have been used to date may catch an opportunist rather than a habitual bike theif. That they are limited in their usefulness and do not really address the larger problem...He is in fact correct that they do little in the way of "solving" the problem. GPS was suggested to track the thieves back to their home and possibly taking down an operation rather than make an immediate arrest on the street. That option is being explored. Other than that there really is no larger strategy that can be implemented to affect bike thefts under the current conditions.
Now if we change the conditions we may have greater success in curtailing thefts, recovering bikes, and identifying criminals. Among the changes is heavier regulation of second hand bike shops (like pawn shops) and statewide bike licenses and/or registration. These ideas have been resisted as it would increase the cost of bikes. Additionally, somone indicated that bikes change hands much more frequently than cars and as a result the burden of paperwork is an issue.
So what are your thought on registration?
I know it is cold comfort to hear me say that bike thefts get there fair share of resources when that fair share is in fact inadequate....but as indicated it is a broader resources issue.
Finally, some have suggested that officers assigned to critical mass should instead focus on bike thefts. Please understand that the functions of officers assigned to patrol are not interchangable with those assigned to investigation. Patrol officers respond to emergencies, maintain order, and do preliminary investigations that invlove collecting facts. The officers assigned to critical mass would be doing patrol related functions if they were not assigned to LACM...they would not be working on bike thefts.
Your thought and ideas are welcome.
Sgt. David Krumer10.13.10 - 5:24 pm
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Dedicated 818 brings up an issue that is the subject of commonly held misconceptions. Thank you for allowing me to address it 818.
Writing tickets is not a revenue generating activity. The bulk of the money goes to the State and the County with a small percentage kicked back to the City that wrote the citation...and that only covers the cost to the City of the officers time in doing the enforcement. Thus writing tickets is actually cost nuetral. This is true for violations of the vehicle code.....now violations of the Los Angeles Municipal Code (i.e. parking citation) go to the City and they are revenue generating.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by Dedicated818
10.13.10 - 5:32 pm
reply
So your saying the tickets issued only cover the cost of inforcement ?
Which means issuing tickets at CM does cover the expence of manpower used.
Hum ?
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.13.10 - 6:19 pm
reply
A definitive yes!!! The cost of our presence at LACM is considerable and NOT recouped. Law Enforcement and public safety in general is not a money making enterprise and actually is the largest portion of the City's expenses.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by Dedicated818
10.13.10 - 6:46 pm
reply
I just must be misinformed, as I was lead to belive that the prison system is one
of the largest industies in our country. Thus promoting the police state we live in.
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.13.10 - 7:10 pm
reply
It very well may be...buit I thought we were discussing citations and the cost of enforcement rather than the cost of incarceration...which I would agree is very high.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by Dedicated818
10.13.10 - 7:20 pm
reply
Yes, but as you will see during your monitoring of this site a large majority of
the riders on this forum let there tickets go to warrant status.
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.13.10 - 7:30 pm
reply
I did not notice that...but even with a warrant these folks are not incarcerated if the warrant is for a traffic violation. At most they spend a day or two in the Jail, see a judge in the morning and are subsequently released....they do not go to prison.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by Dedicated818
10.13.10 - 7:35 pm
reply
Sgt Krumer,
A suggestion regarding bike stings (though I heard it somewhere else and don't take credit for it):
An unlocked bike is to an opportunist, what a locked bike is to a thief with tools and premeditated intent to commit grand theft.
So you don't need fancy expensive complicated GPS transponders and trackers and whatever else, you just have to perform the same sting as before, but with tempting bait and a $30 u-lock. Sure, you might have to wait longer for the thief to show up because he would have to notice the bait and get his tools (or have them on hand). But if you catch him in the act sawing / hammering / hydraulic jacking through a u-lock, then it's case closed. A legit bike thief goes down.
--
As for revenue from CVC citations, come on, now... ;] I know there aren't technically quotas for writing up citations, but patrol officer reviews do hinge partially on the numbers of citations written, do they not? I hope you're speaking on behalf of the department and don't actually believe what you're saying, because you are seriously kidding yourself if you really think the State, County, and City don't ALL want more revenue, even if the chunk they get is a small percentage of each citation's total value. What would happen to LAPD motor division, heck, the entire department's finances, if tomorrow every single citizen started obeying all traffic laws? Bean counters up and down the spectrum of government and law enforcement would be flipping a wig trying to figure out where to make that money up.
outerspace10.13.10 - 7:40 pm
reply
A jail is a temporary holding facility from which you can post bail or bond and walk out of if you can make arrangements for it. There is no determination of guilt and it can not be considered an "industry" as you use the word.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by Dedicated818
10.13.10 - 7:50 pm
reply
So Paris Hilton and Lindsey Lohan were not incarcerated but only held temporarly till
there court appointed sentence was served ?
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.13.10 - 8:06 pm
reply
They have allready figured out how to make extra money using child protective
services to abduct babies from so called undesirable parents with false charges.
Check out the case of Johnathan Irish, there is lots of info about this on you tube.
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by outerspace
10.13.10 - 8:16 pm
reply
They served a sentance...if you are arrested for a warrant you do not serve a sentance...you wait to see a judge. But we are going way off topic.
Summary:
LAPD does not make money on writing tickets
The cost of policing LACM is not recouped by enforcement activity
Letting a ticket go to warrant can result in a temporary "jail" stay.
A municipal jail is not part of the Prison"industry"
If you would like to discuss some of the finer points of the things we discussed than email me at 35128@lapd.lacity.org and I will be happy to go into jails, prisons, warrants, tickets, or whatever you wish.
P.S. Indigis is also welcome to drop me a line...I am sure he has a few things he would either like to ask about or discuss in general.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by Dedicated818
10.13.10 - 8:24 pm
reply
Thank you for the invitation to write. I don't have any questions. Only opinions on the police OVERSIGHT on this forum.
And as I've written already, my primary opinion regarding your presence is that you've not been placed here to interact with us out of a benevolent policy of togetherness as you've implied. You may be deluded or manipulated to think so yourself, or not, I don't know. Your job, as you're more than aware, is law enforcement and only that. Everything else you say that you stand for here, all the warm fuzzies of bridging gaps, etc, is a tactic to help you do what you couldn't do by conventional policing... the helicopters, the violent arrests, the wholesale citations. And so far on CM you've done well. You've cut the guts and heart out of it and made it a happy little bike parade.
Congrats.
The city, thankfully, is coming around and seeing the benefits of bicycle commuting and supporting us. You are not the city. You are the police.
I'm hardly a criminal who celebrates bad behavior. As a matter of fact I'm probably one of the most law abiding, established professionals in MR. I just don't like to see what I'm seeing... you have successfully, for the time being at least, made an impact by creating a fissure in this group... those who don't want the police being integral on bike rides (aka the trouble makers) and those who welcome you (aka the law abiding ones). A split of perceptions like that in a small community like this (good guys vs bad guys) can be fatal for the group.
Previous to you showing up we had problems with stupid kids riding dangerously and occasionally a tagger and even more rarely store thefts on a ride. But a tight community like this was doing a decent job of booting those people out through peer pressure. And when we couldn't, we welcomed police interaction and celebrated it.
I hope someone was right when they wrote, give it enough time and you'll loose interest and move on. I just hope there's something worth having left behind.
indigis responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.13.10 - 9:19 pm
reply
@indigis,
I think you are being a bit dramatic.
You have been here for at least 3 years, so you have already seen a whole group of ridazz come and go. You've seen all kinds of stuff, and yet the ride calendar is as rich as ever, and LACM, despite (or because of) having to negotiate with the police, is 2-3 times larger than it was last year.
LACM is quite robust.
The meddling of the police will not stop it from happening.
In short, our will is greater than theirs.
I know you disagree with my willingness to engage the police.
It was not our choice to have the police inset themselves into LACM
But for my part, if they are going to be there, I feel it is important to understand where they are coming from. And to make sure ridazz are informed about the police's intentions.
I'm not psyched how things went down last month.
And it could see it getting a lot worse to be honest.
But never for a moment do I question the viability of LACM.
Its too robust to simply fail due to a bit of meddling by the LAPD.
trickmilla responding to a
comment by indigis
10.14.10 - 2:52 am
reply
is the ride going to be the same as last month?
Stopping at small alleys and stopping,stopping,stopping even at green lights...no corking....even though the spoke card it would be handled by lapd.
If so then count me out.
Ninja biker10.14.10 - 3:25 am
reply
Finally, some have suggested that officers assigned to critical mass should instead focus on bike thefts. Please understand that the functions of officers assigned to patrol are not interchangable with those assigned to investigation.
For the third time, I am not talking about investigation of bike thefts after the fact. I am talking about deterrence, prevention, and observation of bike theft before or during its occurence, which is a function that absolutely can be assigned to patrol officers (in addition to their other duties and with reasonable priority, of course--nobody is suggesting that 7-11 robberies be ignored while uniformed officers sit and watch a locked bike for eight hours).
Patrol officers respond to emergencies, maintain order, and do preliminary investigations that invlove collecting facts. The officers assigned to critical mass would be doing patrol related functions if they were not assigned to LACM...they would not be working on bike thefts.
Yes (said PC, with as much patience as he could muster), I understand that patrol officers are not detectives or specialists in the investigation of crimes after the fact. What I do understand, and what *you* understand as well whether you'll admit it or not, is that those patrol officers are being diverted from their ordinary patrolling duties so that they can babysit that group bike ride. And what we also both understand is that none of those officers are out there shadowing Critical Mass for hours on a Friday night because they feel like it or because they have nothing else to do; they're doing it because they were ordered to do it.
You said it best yourself: "The officers ...
*would be* doing patrol related functions if they were not assigned to LACM..." [emphasis added]
In other words, patrol officers are NOT patrolling, because somebody with the authority to give them orders ordered them to do something else instead. That same somebody could use that authority to order those officers to concentrate on spotting and apprehending bike thieves, pulling over motorists who endanger cyclists with reckless or aggressive driving (a big problem on Friday nights), and/or conducting stings designed to catch real bike thieves--and the officers could do all of these things while continuing to patrol, observe street activity, deter general crime, interact with the communities they serve, and answer radio calls. He or she just chooses not to issue that order.
Among the changes is heavier regulation of second hand bike shops (like pawn shops) and statewide bike licenses and/or registration. These ideas have been resisted as it would increase the cost of bikes. Additionally, somone indicated that bikes change hands much more frequently than cars and as a result the burden of paperwork is an issue.
So what are your thought on registration?
My thoughts on registration are about what you would expect from somebody who has been issued a bike license ticket by an LAPD officer* who made no attempt to conceal the fact that the ticket was being issued to punish me for asserting my right, and the right of other people, to observe and photograph from a safe distance his* partners' treatment of a cyclist being detained on a group ride. That is to say, I don't like mandatory bicycle registration laws because the one already on the books in California is so universally ignored by cyclists, bike shops, cities and police that its only actual use is as a tool for harassment via selective enforcement.
But beyond that, the actual registration sticker provided by the state is useless as a way to prevent or solve bike theft, because it can easily be removed; and it is only placed on the frame of the bicycle, which makes it entirely useless where the theft and resale of wheels, pedals, cranksets, seatposts, saddles, etc. are concerned. (In case you didn't know, in a lot of cases here in Los Angeles the wheels on a bike are more valuable than the frame.)
Could *voluntary* registration of bicycles on a private or public website help recover stolen property? Maybe. It may get some frames back, if people are willing to mark those frames in such a manner as to make it hard for thieves or their customers to eradicate the number. There still is, as you mentioned, the problem of high turnover. And it still wouldn't be much use for wheels etc. unless people were willing to mark them as well...
* Specifically, Officer R. Alvarez, serial number 26529, working the night shift out of Central Division on September 12, 2008.
PC responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.14.10 - 4:00 am
reply
yo, we will be hosting an alternative to the LAPD....i mean the LACM..critical mass in the SFV...........last friday of every month.......can they cover us all .......i dont think so....power to the people yo......
shotgun_mike10.14.10 - 4:05 am
reply
A municipal jail is not part of the Prison"industry"
There's no need for your trademark sarcastic quotation marks on this one, Sergeant.
Unlike Dedicated818, I know the difference between municipal jail and prison, but I also know that prisons around the country and the services within them have been very heavily privatized over the last few decades. I don't have the exact numbers, but I know that a good number of prisoners from California's justice system are being held as we speak in private prisons out of state on a contract basis. Prison in this country is, in every sense of the word including the literal, an industry.
If this is a subject that you are actually interested in, I encourage you to Google "Corrections Corporation of America" (without those non-sarcastic quotation marks, of course) and get a quick, free education on the American prison industry and the folks who profit from it. You too, Dedicated818.
PC responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.14.10 - 4:13 am
reply
looks like tyler durden is building an army.......................
shotgun_mike10.14.10 - 4:39 am
reply
I was the one who said that. I'm optimistic that their presence will change. I think that it's an opportunity to create a dialog and try to find mutual understanding about what our needs are to be protected and served by them, and their understanding of what needs to be done to be able to allow our group rides (particularly Critical Mass) to function without major incidents.
Perhaps we will find happy mediums where we can get the city to have the police turn a blind eye to corking if thats what it takes to allow for the group rides to function more efficiently and cohesively.
Perhaps the police will gain insight into how many hit and run incidents and violent bike thefts happen to us on a regular basis and therefore take us more seriously.
However, in all reality we need to realize, as indigis has mentioned, that the police are just a finger of the government - A force that only responds to what they are ordered and allowed to do.
So with this in mind, it is not the police that we need to focus on changing but the policies that control how the police police us. We need to get the mayor, the police chief, and the city council to recognize our needs and we need to do what it takes to effectively get the city to change the rules about how group rides should be allowed to function without harassment from the police, and to change the focus of the priorities the police have over hit and runs and bike thefts over other crimes in a more effective manner.
The good "guys and bad guys" of the group is an illusion. We are just ridazz who want to keep riding on without harassment and in safety. The polarities of opinion are a natural state that we need to balance each other out, not to rip us apart. But, we need to realize that convincing a couple police officers online over semantics is really leading us nowhere.
If we want to see change we need to be influencing the members of the higher branches of power that the police have to answer to and take orders from. My question is who should we be talking to and what should we be asking for them to change. (Hopefully without the usual horse and pony shows... meow)
We can also try not to come across as whiny babies and deal with our current situation with the police in the best way we can. All the insults and undermining we give are only going to make them respond more defensively and not improve our situation.
In all reality my post will be brushed over and scoffed at as usual as trivial and irrelevant, but I hope it might trigger some thought and action down the line.
ride on
Joe Borfo responding to a
comment by indigis
10.14.10 - 7:02 am
reply
Correct you are Joe! The LAPD acts on behalf of the City in the area of Law Enforcement...if you would like to see a change in how we police cyclists and group rides it is the City (i.e. Council, Mayor, Police Commission) that you need to sway and not the Department.
While I know that you are in the camp that says to follow the rules of the road because you are traffic...others will take the position that on group rides there is a need to cork, run reds, etc. That the police have no business monitoring these rides. For those who are of the later opinion, I encourage you to go to the Police Commission or City Council and make an arguement. If we are directed to stand down then we will do so.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by Joe Borfo
10.14.10 - 8:28 am
reply
I lost the opportunity to bring up police harassment of cyclists and ideas to engage bicycling at a dinner with Jimmy Delshad (mayor of BH) last week. I've been guilty of not addressing this subject with some of the relevant contacts I have.
This will change.
Thanks for the thoughtful comments, PC and Borfo.
indigis responding to a
comment by Joe Borfo
10.14.10 - 8:33 am
reply
"The city, thankfully, is coming around and seeing the benefits of bicycle commuting and supporting us. You are not the city. You are the police."
I am sorry but I have to call into question you most basic assumption about the police and the role of law enforcement in the larger spectrum of City services. It appears that you believe that the police are somehow an entity in and of itself. The City is providing you support...and one form of that support is the Police outreach you see on this forum and our presence on LACM.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by indigis
10.14.10 - 8:34 am
reply
"officers are being diverted from their ordinary patrolling duties so that they can babysit that group bike ride."
Yes officers are being diverted from their ordinary patrolling assignments...but not from thier patrol duties. Remember that one of the functions of a patrol force is to maintain order. Being present at LACM falls in line with that duty...just as being present at Ciclavia was. Now whether those officers assigned to LACM would be of greater use somewhere else is a fair question for which I do not have an answer. If City government determines that those resources are better spent somewhere else then we will of course oblige. Our goal though is to get LACM to a point where only a bare minimum police presence is involved so that it is not so resource intensive.
There are several ways this can happen:
Shotgun Mike said that SFCM may be moved as an alternative to LACM. Trickmilla has also indicated that it would be great if there were dozens of mini Masses taking place all over the City. If these smaller masses are of a size that they can follow the applicable rules of the road (i.e. stopping at reds and stop signs) than there are no problems.
Joe Borfo has indicated that even a large group such as LACM should behave as traffic...this is also great.
Resource allocation is always being evaluated and re-evaluated.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by PC
10.14.10 - 8:53 am
reply
You misunderstand me. Of course the police are an arm of, and not an entity in themselves. There are certain moves within city hall that are truly positive such as bike lanes, signage, public relations which brings awareness to cyclists on the road... What you, here, consider positive outreach... your presence on this forum are not true examples of public outreach. Rather, a subtle method of enforcement.
If you were a civic employee under the direct oversight of the mayor whose job it was to work together to make the streets safe for bicyclists, I'd be all over that. That is public outreach! However, you are the police. And what you consider making the streets safe for bicyclists is convincing us to change our behavior... wearing helmets, stopping at lights, having bike registrations. Get the difference?
Now if you were here and were an advocate for us, going after bad cops, bad drivers, I'd be your biggest fan. Quite frankly, you haven't done shit. Read your comments regarding big issues. Most of the time you will find out and get back to us. Doesn't happen.
It was no coincidence that your presence coincided with your brothers taking over LACM to bring that mass ride into complete compliance. You are engaged in a two pronged (at least) campaign to achieve the aim of traffic compliance. One being overt, police presence on bike rides, and the other covert, this so called public outreach assignment that you're on. You are here to help modify opinions on this forum.
I own ad agencies, friend. You are a PR entity. And only a PR entity.
indigis responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.14.10 - 9:50 am
reply
I would side with indigis on his comment. I didnt mentioned it a month or so ago, but if you recall the Crank Mob issue, there were some telling explanations via Sgt Krumer and Richie.
the general question: why the riot gear?
(from memory, maybe Im wrong)
Sgt Krumer: It was justified because, though I know a handful of riders, I font know all the riders, and since we heard anti-cop sentiments, we had no reason to believe a bottle could not have been thrown at us.
Richie: i was ordered to have everyone leave within 15 minutes or else the police would push the riders out and arrest anyone who did not comply.
Ask yourself this: do you believe the police dressed in riot gear because of the potential for a thrown bottle, or because in a relative short time they could be ordered to move in and engage the group? Which really explains riot gear more convincingly? And who was your source for the what information? Which made source seemed to cast the positive imagery of the LAPD, while in the same time making mass riders appear as potentially dangerous?
Again, what we receive from Krumer is LAPD propaganda (whether good or bad - is up to you to decide), but the small doses of propaganda and the "Im here to help" approach is intended (in my opinion) to change your mind about the LAPD. The quicker this is done, the easier it is to the okay from the community on LAPD policies and procedures.
Notice from earlier discussions again about Crank mob: The LAPD exerted tremendous restraint at Crank Mob, thus Crank mob was able to occur. Thats a small seed of "if it were not for the LAPD restraint, you wouldn't have Crank Mob occurring, so therefore we must support your activity".
What you're supposed to believe in all this is the image that the officers are somehow so insanely gripped with tension between "seeing cyclist openly drinking /smoking in a confined area" versus "but we (the LAPD) want mass rides to be successful".
Its all this imagery that the LAPD are purely interested in the law, and it pains them to see laws broken, but they fight this tension so group rides can occur. So therefore, what a bunch of great officers we have with us, right?
Look at every complaint about the officers, and Krumer has a positive answer about how it was probably fair that they acted with the best intentions. That's propaganda. At least ridazz can call each other out, and speak freely about each other and our tactics. Krumer cannot really do that, so you have to wonder what "kind" of information is he "able" to convey? Will you just accept it at face value?
md2 responding to a
comment by indigis
10.14.10 - 10:30 am
reply
The video says it all.
Sgt Krumer was assigned as damage control.
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by indigis
10.14.10 - 10:33 am
reply
**sorry for the typos.
md210.14.10 - 10:38 am
reply
I should qualify, that this is really not a knock on Krumer. I dont know the guy, but he he functions here as an employee, not as a rida in the typical sense. Some of you claim he is a great guy, so Im not intending to make him out to be a bad person. If some of you dig him, then thats cool.
We all spit some kind if propaganda, and maybe its not something he intends, and maybe Im just wrong overall. The beauty of this forum is that we can (to a degree I suppose) be critical of each other if need be.
But dont always mistake cool and nice for purity. Theres always an agenda -- trust no one.
md210.14.10 - 11:02 am
reply
What is your agenda? or D818 agenda or Indigis' agenda?
"popo is bad watch out for the NWO police state"
Bunch of hot air from the lot of ya. 1's and 0's on a web site are going to make one bit of difference. LAPD is going to be what it is.
on the other hand I have met Krumer and have had a few conversations with him. He is a good guy and I think he is doing the best he can.
Foldie responding to a
comment by md2
10.14.10 - 11:09 am
reply
Thank you for the clarification....after reading your post I have a better understanding of where you are cming from and I hope that my responses below can overcome some misconseptions:
"If you were a civic employee under the direct oversight of the mayor whose job it was to work together to make the streets safe for bicyclists, I'd be all over that. That is public outreach! However, you are the police. And what you consider making the streets safe for bicyclists is convincing us to change our behavior... wearing helmets, stopping at lights, having bike registrations. Get the difference? ..You are engaged in a two pronged (at least) campaign to achieve the aim of traffic compliance."
You are correct that we would like cyclists who run red lights and don't have lights at night to comply with the vehicle code as we believe in doing so it increases safety. You are basically indicating that enforcement of the VC (even for dangerous behavior) does not meet your definition of outreach. Which brings me to the followig:
"Now if you were here and were an advocate for us, going after bad cops, bad drivers, I'd be your biggest fan. Quite frankly, you haven't done shit."
Many folks are not aware of what is being done behind the scenes:
1) Training-We were advised that many officers misapply the law as it applies to cyclists which result in negative contacts and "harassment." To address this we have put togther several training modules that all officers must complete that explain in detail what behaviors are in fact a violation of the code. The training provided will result in less cyclists being cited or stopped.
2) Directives-We have put out multiple directives that clearly state that cyclists are legitimate users of the roadway and need their rights protected. We have also put out directives to do enforcement against vehciles that block cycling lanes.
3) We are directing our traffic divisions to do stings against motorists that endanger cyclists (like the pedestrian crosswalks stings you sometimes hear about).
4) We routinely meet with leaders in the cycling community to determine where improvements can be made and internal changes required.
5) The Department will not tolerate a bad officer any more than you would. We go after bad cops. If you go on the Inspector General's website you can see our Discipline Reports.
Perhaps you are correct in pointing out that we need to do a better job of publicizing our advocasy. While PR is a part of it...there is actually substance as well.
"Now if you were here and were an advocate for us, going after bad cops, bad drivers, I'd be your biggest fan."
Do I hear applause? :)
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by indigis
10.14.10 - 11:22 am
reply
my agenda?
well whatever it is, Im not being paid or ordered to post on the forum, so you know... but yeah, i wouldnt trust me either.
"I think he is doing the best he can"
right, but the best he can to do....?
i think that really needs to be fleshed out a bit. If you say, "to answer of concerns", then we're back to the problem above.
I already know, as you know about me, how you position yourself with the LAPD. You call us out for our hot air, daddy complexes, and what not. Thats fine, and at least we can talk to each other as such. Do you really have an agenda to curb our daddy complexes? I doubt it. Does Krumer have an agenda? yes... and thats very different from the majority of contributors on this forum.
Its doesn't matter much at the end of the day, because the LAPD will assert itself as it sees fit. For some reason you were convinced via a few conversations, so I'd say Krumer is finding his assignment easier than he imagined.
md2 responding to a
comment by Foldie
10.14.10 - 11:24 am
reply
It's simple,
The idea of critical mass was to bring attention to the fact that cyclist have equal
rights on the roadways. Protesting the agressive actions of motorist.
Yet now we have the Police involved attemting to monitor and guide the rides.
When they should be putting there attention towards agressive motorist.
Most people are intimidated by the danger involved when riding our streets and
do not even attempt to get out there and ride. As the Mayor says in his public
sevice anouncement L.A. is a great place to ride. Yet us cyclist know the streets
can be an unfriendly place.
We do not need the Police monitoring the rides.
The LAPD needs to switch it's agenda and be proactive against agressive motorist.
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by Foldie
10.14.10 - 11:31 am
reply
"The idea of critical mass was to bring attention to the fact that cyclist have equal
rights on the roadways. Protesting the agressive actions of motorist.
Yet now we have the Police involved attemting to monitor and guide the rides. "
I have to disagree with you on this. Many folks have said that they believe that the LAPD's presence legitimizes Critical Mass and facilitates its purpose....to call attention to cyclists and recognize them as lawful users of the roadway. I have read on these forums that there are fewer confrontations with motorists and how many more people come out because they feel it is a safer event. If anything, our presence has grown LACM thereby making it all the more potant as a force for positive change in furtherance of cyling.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by Dedicated818
10.14.10 - 11:51 am
reply
And thank you for the list of proactive and reactive policies the LAPD is implementing to correct an entrenched problem. These are undoubtably good things to various degrees.
After all, anything done is something done.
Now be my hero.
Please help me modify my skeptical nature a bit by releasing some information. You indicated on LACM Tickets thread that there were approximately 50 citations and 1 arrest given to bicyclists on their bicycle ride. HOW MANY citations were given to drivers on that evening for offenses against cyclists. I've been on enough rides to know what the approximate number should be.
Above is a disturbing video of an officer kicking over a bicyclist and then attacking a bystander. A strikingly similar situation occurred with the NYPD and the officer was fired and prosecuted. What is the name of the officer who kicked over the bicyclist and what was the internal resolution to that act?
As for foldie. Keep it up. You're really adding a lot of credibility to Sgt. Kumer's arguments.
indigis responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.14.10 - 12:02 pm
reply
To my knowledge no motorists were cited. Our presence no doubt detered them form acting aggressively toward cyclists.
I just contacted internal affairs..the investigation has been completed and is now being reviewed. As of right now the finding of the investigation are not subject to disclosure. Once there is a final adjudication then a disclosure can be made pursuant to State standards.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by indigis
10.14.10 - 12:35 pm
reply
No car citations during the whole evening of CM?
Honestly, does that not strike you as a bit odd? This forum is FULL of complaints and descriptions of incidents where drivers act aggressively or irresponsibly. Every bicyclist knows the frequency of being "hated on" by drivers. You state yourself the new intention by the LAPD to go after bad drivers. And yet, ALL of your citations were targeted at bicyclists.
I respect and completely understand the need for privacy regarding the internal investigation of the police officer who kicked over the bicyclist and the attack on the bystander. For future reference, should anyone ever revisit this thread and want to check on the resolution on the internal investigation, what reference number would they use to find out. Also, you mentioned earlier some website about internal investigations. Does that site indicate ongoing investigations in general terms?
See, you asked if I had questions and now I see that I actually do. Looking forward to your answers.
indigis responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.14.10 - 12:52 pm
reply
I for one still support Sgt. Krumer and the LAPD. The LAPD thankyou notice has been on this site since it went online, and as a group ride Midnight Ridazz has always sought to have good relations with the LAPD, drivers and neighborhoods. Before the group ride phenomenon blew up as it has, the organizers of Midnight Ridazz always always looked to create love in the streets and it always included having the cops on our side and that's why I continue to appreciate that we have a member of the LAPD on here publicly - would you rather they be undercover? Sgt. Krumer in fact has helped with a number of issues and he does provide some value-able information.
Sure, times get rough and we all have our complaints about the LAPD. Me too. But they aren't going anywhere and it's better if we find ways to lobby them and the city FOR our cause than to resist. They ARE NOT GOING AWAY. They may become disinterested, but they are not going to just dissolve. We need them. Lets find a way to work with them.
Also of note, the LAPD knows that WE are not going away either. This has been proven in every city that CM exists because CM is a free speech assembly issue and that goes right to the core of our constitution. Both sides will have to work this out amicably as has been done in San Francisco which has the best system that I've seen so far for CM.
Roadblock10.14.10 - 1:31 pm
reply
I have read on these forums that there are fewer confrontations with motorists and how many more people come out because they feel it is a safer event.
It's common sense that there will be fewer confrontations when LAPD is watching over the ride. Even the aggressive drivers we're worried about won't rev their engines at cyclists right alongside an LAPD cruiser. But once the police aren't in sight anymore, those drivers will be there waiting to harass us again, because whether we are running reds OR not, we are inconveniencing them.
Is Critical Mass, the ride, safer with cops there? Yes.
Is cycling in general being legitimized and made safer by police presence on Critical Mass? Only during the actual event. Afterward the motorists still hate, mistreat and endanger us.
The people who come out on Critical Mass because it is safer still won't come out on their bikes at other times because when they are NOT on Critical Mass, it is still NOT safe to ride a bike in LA, even legally.
That is what we are trying to change.
outerspace responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.14.10 - 1:35 pm
reply
I agree with RB, community policing works, lets work with the LAPD. I'm also curious as to the outcome of the incident on Hollywood Blvd.
dannyzuko10.14.10 - 1:37 pm
reply
No motorists were cited by officers assigned to the ride....however hundreds of citations were issued to motorists on the night of LACM througout the City.
Our officers were in fact instructed that if they observed any motorist endangering a cyclist along the ride that they were expected to take enforcement action. The problem is that the violation has to be observed by the officer. While there may have been complaints, the officers would need to see the transgression to cite the motorist. I know that on a daily basis there are numerous motorist violations that are dangerous to cyclists...which is why we are doing these stings so that we can be in a position to see the violation and take action.
For updated info on the Hollywood officers involved in that use of force they can always come back to this thread and inquire...or start a new one asking the question.
The reports from the inspector generals office are for closed complaints and are usually a year behind (as it could take up to a year by te statute of limitations to investigate a complaint)....for example the most current one is 3rd quarter of 2009.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by indigis
10.14.10 - 3:49 pm
reply
Lets get real.
The presence of the LAPD on rides does not encourge rider participation, as there
has been a history of harassment and ticketing. The reason the LAPD is involved
is not for the safety of the cyclist, it's because of complaints by motorist.
Officers showing up to Crankmass in riot gear does not promote a positive image.
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.14.10 - 6:32 pm
reply
Just because the Police are here publicly does not mean there are not Police
among us undercover.
Dedicated818 responding to a
comment by Roadblock
10.14.10 - 6:41 pm
reply
The fuck you say?
FBI responding to a
comment by Dedicated818
10.14.10 - 8:09 pm
reply
Sgt Krumer,
Today in a neighboring city of LA, I had a car throw something at me from their car and then side swipe me twice, while I was riding my bicycle.
Is it common practice for the police to let the driver go and refuse to file a report?
revolution10.15.10 - 9:55 am
reply
I can not speak for other jurisdictions but what you are describing is a crime and a report should be taken (and would be taken by LAPD).
At the very least you have:
V C Section 23110 Throwing Substances at Vehicles
23110. (a) Any person who throws any substance at a vehicle or any occupant thereof on a highway is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Any person who with intent to do great bodily injury maliciously and wilfully throws or projects any rock, brick, bottle, metal or other missile, or projects any other substance capable of doing serious bodily harm at such vehicle or occupant thereof is guilty of a felony and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison.
It could be a felony depending on what was thrown and at what speed.
With regards to the sideswipe...you would have to provide additional details. A car buzzing by a cyclist at a high rate of speed and coming to close might not be reportable. It could be an assault with a deadly weapon or a Criminal Threat depending on what they said and did. Intent would have to be shown. If you can paint a better account I can provide you with better guidence.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by revolution
10.15.10 - 10:17 am
reply
Thanks for the response. Should I go down to the station and talk to someone higher up?
Oh and, I have on tape record the cop saying that he can not and will not fill out a police report(taped 3/4 of the conversation).
revolution responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.15.10 - 11:28 am
reply
United States Code: Title 18, CHAPTER 119
FBI responding to a
comment by revolution
10.15.10 - 12:31 pm
reply
Today in a neighboring city of LA, I had a car throw something at me from their car and then side swipe me twice, while I was riding my bicycle.
Is it common practice for the police to let the driver go and refuse to file a report?
Yes. This happened to a group of us once--forty ounce beer bottle thrown directly at our wheels. I was delegated to phone in the report (somebody had memorized the license plate number) and the cop's exact words, when he got there, were "I'm not going to go chase somebody down to write them a ticket for littering." I almost asked him what kind of littering ticket he would write me if I threw a bottle at his police car, but this asshole already looked like he wanted to hit me just for calling him.
PC responding to a
comment by revolution
10.15.10 - 1:40 pm
reply
I own ad agencies, friend. You are a PR entity. And only a PR entity.
And not a very good one, at that. I can only speak for myself, but my estimation of Sgt. Krumer, which was fairly high two weeks ago (certainly higher than indigis's), has come down pretty sharply over the course of this "outreach" (see, I can use sarcastic quotation marks too!). It's clear to me now that Krumer's role is to make reassuring noises about individual incidents while deflecting or ignoring any suggestions that LAPD's institutional attitudes or practices are misguided.
To be sure, there are some people here who are cravenly grateful that somebody from LAPD is giving them the time of day, or indeed doing anything other than writing them a ticket or physically assaulting them. To these folks, Krumer's "good cop" act may be convincing. For how long, though, I can't really say.
PC responding to a
comment by indigis
10.15.10 - 1:57 pm
reply
I'll show you corruption!
PC responding to a
comment by Joe Borfo
10.15.10 - 2:18 pm
reply
My apologies...as I did not intend for my quotation marks to be sarcastic. I believe you are refering to my exchange that touched upon the prison indusrty. When I originally responded my understanding was that the reference to the prison industry was to state employee's earning a high salary from the incarceration of persons...and that as a result they have an engrained interest in seeing more people sent to jail. I understood the persons use of the term industry as a metaphore....thus my quotation marks. Later, they clarified that they were refering to prisons becoming more and more privatized and as such the term industry was clearly appropriate.
If anyone else interpreted my comments as being snippy or sarcastic please know that I in no way intened to belittle or otherwise berate the opinion of another person.
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by PC
10.15.10 - 2:24 pm
reply
Yes, I got a picture of the van, the plate, the driver. I even had the driver stopped there when the police showed up.
revolution responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.16.10 - 3:50 pm
reply
Can you please email me the picture and the plate? Do you know what the police told the driver?
My email is 35128@lapd.lacity.org
Sgt. David Krumer responding to a
comment by revolution
10.16.10 - 8:43 pm
reply
dam I f*** it up!! :[
here is the link http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=358601&title=lady-gagas-brother-garry-gaga
fixie4life responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.18.10 - 9:51 pm
reply
@braydon
whats up with that link? is that a way to get this thread to display properly? How do i use it?
stillline10.19.10 - 1:16 am
reply
I think he's suggesting it to Roadblock. If the forum software ran that function every time someone posted a reply, it would strip out HTML tags that mess up the forums. It looks like it would just need a whitelist of allowed tags so that we could still use fun-but-harmless HTML, post youtube videos, etc.
The alternative, I guess, would be to add the tbody tag to the blacklist that currently screens out auto
play, jav
ascript, homophobic slurs, etc. It looks like that's the tag that screws up the forums every time someone posts a Comedy Central video. Just one more piece of scotch tape to hold this thing together...
nathansnider responding to a
comment by stillline
10.19.10 - 2:00 am
reply
okay... I should be more clear. it's not something we can do on our end. it is a server side php function to remove HTML code for RB, with an option to allow specific tags like "a", "em", "b", "strong" and basic stuff for text formatting.
braydon responding to a
comment by stillline
10.19.10 - 3:33 am
reply
Was thinking today.......especially watching that Long Beach cop video..........i think the main problem is........the police have absolutely NO respect for the citizens that they are supposed to protect and serve............just look at how they talk to you and how they treat you...........NO RESPECT.........you are the enemy , you are a threat. They need to realize that we are not the enemy and we are not a threat (99% of the time)
shotgun_mike responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.19.10 - 3:39 am
reply
yup! didn't read this before I responded, otherwise I wouldn't have, pretty much said everything, and a bit better!
braydon responding to a
comment by nathansnider
10.19.10 - 3:39 am
reply
Sgt Krumer,
I have thought a while over this, but I am making the decision to not send you the pictures or any info I have.
My reasoning being that if something gets back to the police in my city(a pretty small city), I do not not have the desire or time to go through the harassment that comes with opposing the PD in this city. I have witnessed the harrassment many times stemming from complaints etc. happening to numerous individuals/
revolution responding to a
comment by Sgt. David Krumer
10.20.10 - 12:18 pm
reply
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Ridazz Roulette!
