NOTE: All timestamps are in the future because WE are in the future. The care takers of Midnight Ridazz.com reserves the right to remove, edit, move or delete anything for any reason. None of the opinions expressed on these boards represent the Midnight Ridazz nor can anyone purport to speak on behalf of Midnight Ridazz.
If you’ve got your ear to the ground in the bike community then you know that a lot of people have had their bikes stolen. You also might have noticed some people talking about vigilante actions. Cyclists have been talking about organizing police stings, hunting down bike thieves, tying them up, and beating them up. “Let’s make an example of them” is the prevailing attitude. A close friend of mine keeps calling me with proposals for a sting.
You are stupid. You, as in you people talking about physical violence. You, as in the people who have elevated the actual physical bicycle so that it is now a sacred thing. “HOW DARE YOU STEAL MY BICYCLE?!!” thunders righteously across the internet.
Here’s a video of - as the video describes - a “bike thief vs street justis (sic)”:
I don’t see anything admirable going on here. I see a guy getting beat up and scared shitless - one who allegedly stole a bike. He’s obviously terrified, and we don’t know if he gets injured.
At what point did the loss, or near loss, of a $500, $1000, or $2000 bike entitle you to scare the shit out of someone? Or hurt them? I had a clumsy low speed crash 2 1/2 years ago, broke a bunch of teeth, jacked up my lip and cracked my thumb, and it cost $7000 and a years worth of dental work to fix that. It sucked, and it was traumatic, and the damage far exceeded the value of any bike not in the Tour De France peloton. Inflicting costly bodily harm is very easy. Suppose you hit them the wrong way and they end up with a brain injury, or a broken arm, or a broken neck? The injury you can potentially cause a thief in a street fight, or by chasing them down and tying them up, as some have suggested, can far far far exceed the value of your bike.
Moreover, it’s irrational. If you catch a bike thief and you beat the shit out of them, you can no longer turn them in. If you do, you’ll be brought up on assault charges. If you catch them and detain them, instead of beating them up, you’ve caught a thief, and potentially you’ve got a shot at catching any collaborators.
Here’s the rub - you don’t know what you’re doing. You’ve got no experience setting up stings, and the thief has experience stealing bikes. There’s a good chance that your lack of experience will just turn out to be embarrassing for you. On the other hand, there’s a chance that a confrontation will ensue, and someone could get hurt. Your bike just isn’t worth that.
Wait! Maybe you’ll catch a thief, and then uncover the ring which is responsible for all these bike thefts! No, that’s not gonna happen. What you’re going to find out is that your thief is skinny teenager, or a drug addict, or homeless. They’re fencing your bikes on Craigslist, or at garage sales, or on Lincoln Blvd, or to pawn shops. They’re not part of some international bike cartel, they’re not stealing your bike out of personal malice toward you, they’re just part of the 11.9% of Californians who are unemployed.
A friend of mine stole cars when he was a teenager. He got caught, got a lot of probation, and now he’s one of the hardest working, biggest contributors to society that I know. If he was stealing bikes in LA today, maybe he’d be the victim of a sting, get trounced by a gang of vigilantes, and be on a feeding tube instead of making a difference. I don’t know why he stole cars, but I know that I was glad to know him, he helped me out several times, and I’m even gladder that he can take part in society and make a difference, which he does on a regular basis.
Fact is, all this talk of vigilante action amounts to a whole lot of impatience and frustration from hotheads. As a hothead myself, I’m not very impressed. If you bend that violent impulse away from violence and toward lobbying police and policymakers to take bike theft and secure bike parking more seriously, we’d all be better off. But heck, that would be difficult. That would take patience, planning, and follow through. Following suspected bike thieves around and plotting vigilante action - that’s something that can be accomplished by impulsive, undisciplined and unimaginative action.
The reality is they stole your bike because you didn’t secure it properly. Of all the stolen bikes I know of except one, they were locked up with laughably thin cable lock, or locked improperly, or left in a sideyard unlocked, or left elsewhere unlocked. The one exception - the cyclist locked up their bike properly with a U-lock, but they left it on a university bike rack overnight.
This is Los Angeles - it’s the big city and it’s a hard knock life. If you can’t take the occasional hard knock of having your bike jacked and then walk tall, keep your cool, and respond with dignity, then you don’t belong here. If your bike isn’t in a locked room, or locked up with a U-lock, there’s a good chance your bike could get stolen. Lock up properly. And don’t tell me that your bike is more important to you than the $700 replacement cost. That’s no excuse for beating people up - no one’s proposing ass whoopings for laptop thieves, but laptops at least have irreplaceable data on them. What about your bike is irreplaceable? What about stealing it justifies physical violence?
I’ll say this - if any vigilante action goes down, I’ll discuss with the police the names of the people who have proposed these things.
Alex I appreciate the peaceful nature of your post.... but in all seriousness... fuck that. If I catch someone thieving my bike I will knock them out cold AT MINIMUM. that's a PROMISE. granted, I've had my bike for 3 years, I watch my shit like a hawk, I sit in certain seats at restaurants so as to be in view of my bike I take my bike into stores I hardly ever leave it out of sight cause I know LA is a hard knock city and have the scars to prove it. but at a certain point I give up on the peace and love. That point is when someone takes my true love away. A bicycle is not just a piece of metal. It's something you bond with you rime with you adjust and tinker with until it becomes a part of you. it's too personal to just let go.
Of the few college courses I've bothered to take over the last, several years I've been vegetating, PC-832/AJ-58 has been one of the most useful and enjoyable classes I stayed awake through.
Not only do you get to know what people get arrested for and how to approach a potential suspect, but basic takedowns and handcuffing procedures are covered quite thoroughly.
It also doubles as an official certification which you could maintain and update every two years.
backstory: The big T-Rex pulls up to the pizza joint and brazenly leaves his Surly Travellers Check bike unlocked outside and brags about how he will "chase any thief down in his cleats." Minutes later we pulled this prank that would make Allen Funt jock. I have to admit, this was pretty effin cruel joke... as you can see in the video, we let it go exactly 2 seconds too long.... 2 seconds mind you....
What if your bike was gold plated and diamond encrusted and passed down to you from your deceased father as his last great gift to you and that was passed down from his father who had perished in a war and that was his last great gift to him? Does the worth of said hypothetical bike warrant a smackdown of near-lethal degree?
Lethal degree? That's not enough - I think it warrants a Kaiser Sose like extermination of all their known friends and family, as well as defiling the graves of their elders.
You cannot physically abuse bike thieves, but CA law DOES permit you to use "reasonable force" to prevent theft, and also permits citizens arrests (see CA Penal Code 837 and 692). Talk to local law enforcement first though, I'm sure they'd be MORE than happy to have help with a sting operation against bike thieves, and that would cut down on the potential liability. (Getting sued by a criminal dumbass would be exceedingly lame.)
You don't have to accept being a victim of crime. There are plenty of poor people who get buy without stealing shit.
This is a moot point though, it's not like anyone's ever going to DO anything like a sting operation.
Also, AT's car thief friend notwithstanding, California's recidivism rate is 70%.
background on the video in the op, in case you dont have an account on nyfixed.
"Here's the story. I was having brunch on first ave and first street with a a couple of friends including Alfred .It was a pretty sunny day and a good there was a good amount of pedestrian traffic .Nothing unusual. Alfred went out to make a call and spotted someone looking over his bike. Nothing unusual ,he got a hot ass cannondale with hot ass wheels.the guy was average looking,had a helmet and a bag.looked like your average joe casual biker.Suddenly this dude gets on his knees and pulls out a drill.At first Alfred thought he wanted to steal his wheels,until he saw the drill.Is this what it has come out to?!people stealing bike with drills?Anyways as he was getting ready to drill the ulock,Alfred comes in the restaurant and yells,!yooooo someones trying to steal my bike,lets go get him.and let me tell you this ass hole tried stealing the wrong bike.first it was a bike messengers bike and second it was Alfred's bike and the motherFkr got a temper sometimes.so we roll out to this dude and start pounding him.my first instinct was to get my U lock and bang on him,but my bike was already locked up so , we bumbrushed this dude and started pounding him.Everybody is watching and wondering why this dude is being plumeted ,but at that point we don't give a fuck.we had to make sure this asshole dosen't do it again.me personal i have had 2 bikes stolen,in like a month apart.fuck that shit.he did't even look like a bike thief!so while pounding him i reach out to put my phone in my pocket and realized i had a camera on my wait.i pulled it out and captured the second half of the beating!"
oh he got beat up before i even got my camera out trust me and also after he had a bag full off tools,including this drill
full disclosure. I do feel just a tiny bit sorry for the loser bike thief in the video I have to admit.... and the one time I recovered a bike from an actual thief I admit, I just let the bitch run away when in fact my friend and I could have easily beat the fucking shit out of dude. we were just happy to recover the bike for our friend and get out of that sketchy hood. so there... when it came down to it we showed a little compassion.... but you know what? I bet that bitch ass is STILL stealing bikes.
Roadblock responding to a comment by ruinedbyidiots
09.15.09 - 8:28 pm
I beat some dude up for stealing my lil' bro's razor scooter in Paramount. His big ass dad saw it, walked over and said, "sup dude". I explained and his dad proceeded to smack him around. It was a little funny but I felt bad after his dad started smacking him like a dusty rug.
Back when I had my shop, several times I had to chase down bike thiefs.
Most of the chases end up with me crashing them at speed.
Road rash seemed like a just punishment.
Juvinile Div. handles bike theft so there is not a hole lot done about it.
I don’t see anything admirable going on here. I see a guy getting beat up and scared shitless - one who allegedly stole a bike. He’s obviously terrified, and we don’t know if he gets injured.
I guess by now you've actually done your research, as you should have done before you posted, and discovered that the guy really did try to steal a bike and that he didn't get badly injured. Just wondering whether this changes your view of that incident.
(As to your promise to go to the cops, it's almost too embarrassingly lame to talk shit about. Make up your own witty comment and pretend that I made it.)
PC - it's almost as if you are privy to all the facts, and able to pass judgment on my statements about information - you must have an amazing network.
The fact is, if someone actually goes through with a vigilante op, they could seriously injure someone, maim them, over a fucking bike. The other fact, the one you're not privy to, is that I've been solicited by several individuals in different instances to help in such activities. One is persistent, and has been flirting with violent vigilante acts as a solution now for months.
Where there is smoke, there is fire. That fact above, combined with the routine proposals of violence on this message board made me feel it is necessary to raise this issue, and to say that I will talk to the police about who has been most enthusiastic in advocating such things, if such actions occur.
Now - don't be so narrow - I know it's your nature, but try - about the video. When he falls onto the trailer at the beginning of the video, he could have easily taken a fall in the wrong way. Second, when he falls next to the doorway at the end of the video, had he fallen 6 inches closer to it, he would have hit his head on the edge of the step. Lights out.
The world is littered with people who have done 1 or 2 years manslaughter because they killed someone accidentally in a bar fight. The outcome of fights is unpredictable, and always a flirt with disaster. You want to be saddled with that guilt? Or be the unlucky victim?
It's stupid to risk disaster over what is fundamentally a tool to get you from place to place. Roadblock - you love your bike, but what you really love is your connection with riding. A mind and body connection is what you have. You can regain that quickly with another machine, but the consequences of unnecessary violence are often irreversible and tragic.
I’ll say this - if any vigilante action goes down, I’ll discuss with the police the names of the people who have proposed these things.
(As to your promise to go to the cops, it's almost too embarrassingly lame to talk shit about. Make up your own witty comment and pretend that I made it.)
When he falls onto the trailer at the beginning of the video, he could have easily taken a fall in the wrong way. Second, when he falls next to the doorway at the end of the video, had he fallen 6 inches closer to it, he would have hit his head on the edge of the step. Lights out.
Would it be callous of me to suggest that the guy should have done a quick risk-versus-reward calculation, with due regard for the possibility of a slip-and-fall injury, before stealing people's bicycles right in goddamn front of them?
PC responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 12:08 am
Would it be foolish of you to suggest that it is somehow desirable that a human being be put in danger of serious physical injury because they failed the risk/reward calculation for petty theft? Should we go crack the heads of shoplifters now? Waterboard ticket scalpers? Do you feel that perpetrators of petty non-violent crime should be subjected to violent reprisals? Do you condone that those reprisals? Do you think it is ok for Roadblock to condone those reprisals?
im pretty sure people are still willing to fight and defend what is legally theirs no matter what it is bike, laptop, ipod, etc.... its not about how much its worth, its about he principle.
if a bike thief gets caught and turned into police, how much time you think he'll get? probably not a lot. chances are that the thief will still again and improve his technique so he won't get caught. if we start beating down thieves it'll make them scared to do it again. beat them to a pulp, they will NEVER steal again. well... they'll probably target some easy area if they did their homework.
but seriously, thieves need something to be scared about and a hardcore beat down is the key. police aren't doing anything about it. you really think they give a shit about bike theft? when there's drug rings and gang violence to worry about, its last on their list.
death to bike thieves! (don't quote me on that lol)
there is enough treachery, hatred violence absurdity in the average
human being to supply any given army on any given day
and the best at murder are those who preach against it
and the best at hate are those who preach love
and the best at war finally are those who preach peace
those who preach god, need god
those who preach peace do not have peace
those who preach peace do not have love
beware the preachers
beware the knowers
beware those who are always reading books
beware those who either detest poverty
or are proud of it
beware those quick to praise
for they need praise in return
beware those who are quick to censor
they are afraid of what they do not know
beware those who seek constant crowds for
they are nothing alone
beware the average man the average woman
beware their love, their love is average
seeks average
but there is genius in their hatred
there is enough genius in their hatred to kill you
to kill anybody
not wanting solitude
not understanding solitude
they will attempt to destroy anything
that differs from their own
not being able to create art
they will not understand art
they will consider their failure as creators
only as a failure of the world
not being able to love fully
they will believe your love incomplete
and then they will hate you
and their hatred will be perfect
like a shining diamond
like a knife
like a mountain
like a tiger
like hemlock
AT's sentiments are almost religious in nature. That doesnt mean their wrong, but it means that a non-violent approach lends itself to those who choose violence over peace. George Orwell had some good points about Ghandi's apporach in light of modern methods in war. HOW COULD NON-VIOLENCE WORK?
And at issue might be the meaning of "work". To some the sentiment is more religious... mystical or what not...
To others it is more or less black or white: victory versus defeat (win or lose)... and again more words to define (who are the "real" winners and losers?).
Point taken.
One of the problems AT points to (and its a good one) is the apples to apples sense of justice. Does theft, justify a beatdown? Or if youre stolen from by thief (X), does that only allow you to steal from (X), to somehow change the cosmos and let justice reign???
Or do you meditate and lose all attachment to things of this world?
This trite post ends with:
I want AT's world
But I live in PC and Roadblock reality
Steal my bike, and ill try to beat you down, unless you can beat me down.
AT, I do wonder where you draw the line though... what if this wasnt just a bike theft, but something more along the lines of stealing a child? Lets be less extreme, what if someone keeps harassing your girlfriend/boyfriend?
As much as you dont want a world of violence, i dont want to be policed, but your solution is to run to the police---THAT IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!
md2 responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 10:50 am
first of all, not all bike thefts are petty. You steal certain bicycles and you are talking grand theft.
Second, bike thefts can be violent, too. Remember the people who got jacked at the All City Toy Ride?
I'm sorry but if you are stealing someone's bicycle, you are running the risk of getting your ass beat.
I'm not so sure I would condone setting up stings just to beat someone's ass, and my advice would be to refrain from that as you could wind up getting sued or go to jail.
But you catch someone in the act and use physical means to prevent the bike from being stolen is ok, as long as you don't use deadly force.
la duderina responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 10:56 am
I guess I'm just a weakling. I'd never lay a finger on anyone for fear of elevating the situation to a physical level in which I could get harmed as well.
I really don't think beating someone up "teaches them a lesson" - at all. I would totally call someone out in public though, who wouldn't? I'd be very happy with a thief simply not stealing my bike, and I'm willing to drop it at that if need be. Who knows what kind of a crazy fuck you might be dealing with? I'd be willing to guess that some of the bike thieves carry knives and other life endangering implements.
Best case scenario: there is a cop conveniently rolling down the street that could catch 'em. Even better case scenario, they trip and injure something in the act of scampering away ;)
"I guess I'm just a weakling. I'd never lay a finger on anyone for fear of elevating the situation to a physical level in which I could get harmed as well."
Jonnyboy...
Youre missing out. It all starts with the fingers -- I encourage you to lay your fingers on someone, try it... plus you WANT to elevate this situation to a MORE physical level --- Im telling you its great... Let your fingers go to all sorts of places, and just see what happens.
And honestly you want it to be the kid of level where you could get harmed. Im talking choking, chains and whips, bro... do it. Get violent.
You can thank me for my advice later... now log off, and go find your victim; go check the bear traps. I believe in you.
md2 responding to a comment by jonnyboy
09.16.09 - 11:35 am
I didn't quote Roadblock or PC out of respect for the psuedo private nature of this forum, but I wanted to. Here's the post:
I took the post I wrote yesterday about the idiocy of vigilante actions against bike thieves, and I posted it on Midnight Ridazz. I knew I'd get very little love, but since that was the group I most wanted to reach, it made sense to do it. Feetpower, an anonymous poster laid it down:
im pretty sure people are still willing to fight and defend what is legally theirs no matter what it is bike, laptop, ipod, etc.... its not about how much its worth, its about he principle.
if a bike thief gets caught and turned into police, how much time you think he'll get? probably not a lot. chances are that the thief will still again and improve his technique so he won't get caught. if we start beating down thieves it'll make them scared to do it again. beat them to a pulp, they will NEVER steal again. well... they'll probably target some easy area if they did their homework.
but seriously, thieves need something to be scared about and a hardcore beat down is the key. police aren't doing anything about it. you really think they give a shit about bike theft? when there's drug rings and gang violence to worry about, its last on their list.
death to bike thieves! (don't quote me on that lol)
Don't quote you on that?
This is the logic of violence which is prevalent in the bike community presently. In reading through the negative responses to my post, my first reaction is shock. Shock, because in a group that is supposed to be non-elitist, and which is composed primarily of middle class and lower class people, personal property (bicycles) is elevated above human life and physical health. Violence is supported as an effective and reasonable first approach.
No wonder we are blighted by insane spending on our military. No wonder we don't have nationalized healthcare in this country. People have their values all screwed up. Money and bikes and cars and boats and air conditioners and trips to Tahiti are more important to us than physicals and cancer treatment and AIDs cocktails and preventative medicine. It reminds me of this great article I read yesterday in the New Republic (hat tip to David Pulsipher) regarding Ayn Rand's objectivist ideology, and it's influence on the worldview of the right wing.
A random and out of place thought - bike thieves and pickpockets have something in common. They both avoid conflict. If they were the violent type, and unafraid of conflict, they'd be mugging people, or robbing liquor stores.
My dad was, some years ago, at the bakery getting some donuts. He sets his wallet on the counter, which I imagine he does with an unconscious sense of relief because he has one of those wallets that looks like it's got a library in there - it's about 3 inches thick with business cards, receipts, and notes. After he talks with his cashier for a moment he looks back at a man who is in line behind him. He's just glancing about, but he notices that the wallet in the man's hands is a lot like his. And then he looks at the counter and his wallet is gone.
So he turns around and says to the man, in a normal tone of voice, "that's my wallet." The guy says, "no it's not", and my dad says "yes it is." "I put it on the counter here, and you picked it up." The guys says "no, you're mistaken." My dad, stubborn guy, says "would you open it and show me your drivers license" and the guy makes a show of doing it, but returns the wallet quickly, my dad's wallet, without apology. The inept thief stands in line for a second, then leaves the bakery. When confronted, the thief tried deflection, but when that was impossible, he backed down.
I wrote my post condemning vigilante actions against bike thieves, but the possibility that keeps getting raised is catching a bike thief in the act. It's unlikely, but as that video showed, it does happen. Even in that case, I think most of the time violence will do nothing. Usually, if you catch a thief in the act, they're going to run like hell. As I mentioned above, they're not the sort of criminal who is comfortable with confrontation.
Suppose they don't run? Suppose when you confront them they stand their ground. Well, now your first concern should be what will happen if you escalate, and your second concern should be retrieving bicycle. By standing their ground they have indicated that they are not terrified of you. Even if you outweigh them, or if you outnumber them, they may have reason to believe that they are in a safer position. They may be armed, or they might be an experienced street fighter. If you escalate the situation you may find that your efforts to retrieve your bike will end with you in intensive care, or worse.
In that situation, I can think of two non-violent responses that make more sense. One is, if you feel sufficiently threatened, back down and contact the police. However, if you think it is safe, you could place your hands on the bike. Don't threaten the bike thief personally, just claim the bike with your hands. And ask bystanders to call the police, or call them with one hand, and claim the bike with the other. It is incredibly hard to pry a bike out of anyone's hands, but if they try, you can become like the 2 year old throwing a tantrum. Go limp and drag the bike to the ground with your body. Wrap your legs around it. By being non violent but claiming the bike, you make it hard for them to cope. In order to get the bike they have to take it to the next level. Years of non violent protest has shown that it's hard for an aggressor to start a fight with you if you don't help start it with them.
You'll look idiotic, and it might be humiliating, but you could very well keep your bike. And, if the thief escalates, you can always back down. Like confronting anyone who doesn't immediately back down, it's a risky move, but it stands less risk of violence than immediately becoming violent.
The overall impression I'm getting is that AT is concerned about the harm done to the bike thief. In the scenario he lays out, there's one "what if" on top of another, on top of another. Yeah could happen in the cosmic world of possibilities, but not likely. If AT was that vigilant about not seeing anyone get hurt, you would think he would require all the ridazz on his ride to wear helmets, yes? Now there you don't need to have all those "what if" happening to see the benefits of the argument.
Now he would say that it's a matter of personal choice if someone wears a helmet or not. Well isn't it a personal choice is someone beats the thief's head in or not? I mean it's not like the head beater is going out and finding someone's head to beat in. They came to him. The thief made the first move. Consider it part of the drawbacks of thief's chosen profession.
He saids he has risen the flag cause he's seeing alot of talk about vigilantism. I haven't seen any talk about it here lately, have you? If he's seeing it with his friends or on another board, why bring it here? Keep the shit where it originated from! Anyways the peeps on this board aren't going to do a damn thing. Anyone remember the dude posting suspicious parts on CL, by LA stadium? Anyone even bother going over there to see whasup? Nope!
AT you could do alot better for this board by getting us the highest resolution pic of that shanker we're currently looking for. That's would be serving this community. Not dragging some drama from some other board you're on.
If he's ever had a bicycle stolen then maybe he would be more understanding to the pain and anger that one feels when their bike has been stolen.
I have owned several bikes and I have had one stolen. I cried my eyes out the day that bicycle got stolen. And despite the number of bikes I had before that one and the number of bikes I have had after, I still think about that bicycle and get mad at the motherfucker that took it.
for some people, bicycles aren't "just a bike" (to use AT's own terms). They are much more personal than that...and if AT has never had a bicycle stolen, then I could see why he would feel the way he does because he just doesn't get it, and if he has had a bike stolen and still feels this way, well then I just don't get that.
I agree with him that stings aren't an appropriate thing to do, unless the sting involves police and the thief gets arrested. But I'll be damned if I will just stand by and watch as someone rides off on my bicycle.
I like what Jonnyboy has to say. My temperament is more aggressive than his, but I think he got it right the first time, and it's my personality that needs adjusting. I will defend myself and others like a tiger, but when the thing at risk is a piece of metal, my attitude is more peaceful.
A random and out of place thought - bike thieves and pickpockets have something in common. They both avoid conflict. If they were the violent type, and unafraid of conflict, they'd be mugging people, or robbing liquor stores.
how do you know the same people stealing bikes aren't the same people robbing liquor stores??
Most kids start out stealing bikes, they get away with it, then maybe they'll steal a car, get away with that, next thing you know its full on armed robbery.
Did that guy in the video look like he had the temperament for strong armed robbery?
I like my bikes, they're familiar, we work together. But so are my running shoes and racing spikes, and I've put a lot more time and effort into that relationship. What I've learned - shoes come and go, even that pair of Air Streaks in 1998 that was so light and fast and perfect - but I remain a runner. The same is true when I change bikes - my cycling is more a connection with myself than with an object.
No matter how you romanticize your bike/duderina connection, an emotional attachment to a bike is no reason to risk your health, or anothers. When you escalate with a thief, unless you're 7 feet tall, it's your ass that's on the line more than the thief. And if they armed, then even Roadblock is at a disadvantage.
While you debate this on this message board, I'm broadcasting my message further and wider.
I especially want to say that to PC, who has a lot of internet courage in taking apart other people's opinions, but needs to put his ass on the line for once and take a position that isn't pure reaction. And take it PUBLICLY.
Suppose they don't run? Suppose when you confront them they stand their ground. Well, now your first concern should be what will happen if you escalate, and your second concern should be retrieving bicycle. By standing their ground they have indicated that they are not terrified of you. Even if you outweigh them, or if you outnumber them, they may have reason to believe that they are in a safer position. They may be armed, or they might be an experienced street fighter. If you escalate the situation you may find that your efforts to retrieve your bike will end with you in intensive care, or worse.
I'll assess the situation, take the risk, and accept the consequences--just like the bike thief took a risk and will have to accept the consequences.
But feel free to be a dorm room pacifist and let the guys with the badges and guns do your violence for you. Your choice.
Incidentally, on my planet it goes without saying that you don't confront anybody on the street without assuming that they'll stand their ground and you'll have to back up your shit. Thanks for the tip, though.
Quote me all you want, by the way.
PC responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 12:14 pm
No, he didn't...but bike thieves come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Have you seen Friday? Look at Debo. Come on now you can't generalize criminals like that. You never know..
Also, that guy in the video didn't get beat up that bad either. They basically just shoved him around. you swear. no more of your "what ifs" either.
I agree you shouldn't risk your health over a bicycle that, yes, can be replaced. But it's also no reason to just sit back and let someone take something that is yours, that you worked hard to get, that you have built a relationship with, because it is "just a bike." I think my bicycle deserves the best I can throw down in order to protect it while acting reasonably under the circumstances.
If you want to sit idly by while you witness someone drilling out your ulock then more power to you. I for one would do my best to make sure the criminal doesn't get away with it.
la duderina responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 12:15 pm
I especially want to say that to PC, who has a lot of internet courage in taking apart other people's opinions, but needs to put his ass on the line for once and take a position that isn't pure reaction. And take it PUBLICLY.
I especially want to say that to PC, who has a lot of internet courage in taking apart other people's opinions, but needs to put his ass on the line for once and take a position that isn't pure reaction. And take it PUBLICLY.
What the fuck are you jibbering about now? This is your windmill, Don Quixote, not mine. I just happen to think you're full of shit, and said so.
Jesus. Fucking mathematicians. Numbers, they understand...people, not so much.
PC responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 12:17 pm
Just about all thief of bicycles can be handled if you carry renter's insurance. It happened to me when I was driving and got three bikes stolen. I had an old International Scout and we had three bikes stolen out the back of the truck. They were cabled all together and thought no one would steal them cabled together. Yeah right! Insurance took care of all of them, even though one wasn't mine.
Renter's insurance insures the contents of your apartment. Maybe even your garage, never looked into that.
User1 responding to a comment by ruinedbyidiots
09.16.09 - 12:30 pm
I just think their is this weird line that proponents of non-violence draw between the worth of an object (whether it be alive, metal, or even an idea). Shit Galileo gave up his theory for his life... thats knowing worth.
AT's point is valid in my opinion when he sticks with the following: beating someone to the point of risking your own freedom.
Punch is the face is warranted. Kick in the stomach, sure. Can you accidentally knock someone out and they fall onto an ice pick? Of course... manslaughter? Of course... but AT's views and perspective are needed in prison... someone must bring solid commonsense to hardened souls.
Must of this is just preaching to the hippie choir.. or at least to those already with a disposition toward non-violence. Others will not be changed by..."come on, you can hurt someone and possibly go to jail". I think people know this.
Drawing connections between beat downs as revenge for attempted theft to more global issues like health care is unfair.
1. AT seems to think we wouldnt beatdown (given the chance) the person(s) responsible for fucking with our healthcare. Its not as simple as saying, "look, that fucker is trying to keep cancer incurable".
2. Why is AT shocked at teh responses to this thread and Im not?? So weird, and he is supposed to be more in tune with this MR community than me. Its like do you even pay attention? But then why shock, if you posted it on here because you thought MR needed to hear it? Sounds a little dishonest-- you weren not shocked.
3. Since were on the path of drawing connections where we really dont know how they meet. Let me suggest that our attachement to bikes, metal, and the like, is similar to some and their attachment to health, a better world and the like. Just because were biased about who is paving the way for a better legacy... as i noted before (i.e. religious notions)... in the end we'll all return to the dirt..
JUST BURY ME WITH ALL MY BIKES
Get your bike back and make a point if you can... just dont over do it --that is the KEY to success.
md2 responding to a comment by la duderina
09.16.09 - 12:32 pm
"No matter how you romanticize your bike/duderina connection, an emotional attachment to a bike is no reason to risk your health, or anothers. When you escalate with a thief, unless you're 7 feet tall, it's your ass that's on the line more than the thief. And if they armed, then even Roadblock is at a disadvantage."
--This is a clear assumption made by many who never experinced real conflict. Height rarely matters. If you can fight, you'll make your point. The real problem is that Los Angeles will teach you -- YOU DONT KNOW WHO CAN OR CANNOT FIGHT.
Like PC said, some of us will just take our chances.
Whats with all the chatter about taking shit to the public... talk about a bully finding a pulpit
Cant we all just read "The Myth of Sisyphus"
and then we'll resign ourselves to work without hope...
md2 responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 12:44 pm
"I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain! One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night-filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."
...erm, I do have to say that Bukowski didn't think much of Camus.
PC responding to a comment by md2
09.16.09 - 12:51 pm
"I have seen enough factories, whorehouses, jails, bars, park orators to last 100 men 100 lifetimes. to go into the streets when you have a NAME is to go the easy way--they killed Thomas and Behan with their LOVE, their whiskey, their idolatry, their cunt, and they half-murdered half a hundred others.
It's an ongoing challenge to PC to do something more than craft quips and barbs for debates with me, user1, and yourself. It's a challenge him to take a position of his own, in a public way. It's a sad reflection that the PC_ twitter, while sometimes funny, is the most public face of MR's most precise writer. Anyone can sit here and poke holes in sentences - I could cut ribbons from your reasoning all day long - but to take a positive position is a much more difficult.
It's a challenge to PC to adopt a responsive stance rather than a reactive one.
WHEN YOU LEAVE YOUR TYPEWRITER YOU LEAVE YOUR MACHINE GUN AND THE RATS COME POURING THROUGH. when Camus began giving speeches before the academies his writing dies. Camus did not begin as a speechmaker, he began as a writer; it was not an automobile accident that killed him."
It's a challenge to PC to adopt a responsive stance rather than a reactive one.
Ridicule, as James Howard Kunstler so aptly pointed out, is the inescapable fate of the ridiculous. You're getting precisely the response that this earthshatteringly important "position" of yours deserves.
"Anyone can sit here and poke holes in sentences - I could cut ribbons from your reasoning all day long - but to take a positive position is a much more difficult. "
Welcome to academia.
With Truth please stand up.
Heres a positive position: Dont steal bikes, or you might get your ass beat.
md2 responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 1:03 pm
Camus wasn't above a little political activism himself, as I'm sure you know. His "conscious" contribution in this sense, arguably, was to call attention to the trap that Sartre and them were walking into when they embraced Stalinism and third-world revolution uncritically. How's that for pushing a rock up a hill?
PC responding to a comment by md2
09.16.09 - 1:09 pm
"I like my bikes, they're familiar, we work together. But so are my running shoes and racing spikes, and I've put a lot more time and effort into that relationship. What I've learned - shoes come and go, even that pair of Air Streaks in 1998 that was so light and fast and perfect - but I remain a runner. The same is true when I change bikes - my cycling is more a connection with myself than with an object."
To some of us these "pieces of metal" are more than just an object. They may very well be our likelihood, as was the case with this being a messengers main, if only, mode of transportation.
I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth and while I can replace a pair of shoes without too much pain and effort, a bicycle is a little more out of my financial stratosphere. It seems like you're not and so therefore you're willing to say goodbye to your "piece of metal" so as long as no one gets physically hurt. Again, you're focusing on the physical pain when you should be taking into consideration a plethora of circumstances, including emotional and financial pain (what if it was the messenger's only bike and he can't afford another in time to not miss a days amount of work?)
You should really read the following book, PACIFISM AS PATHOLOGY By Ward Churchill.
You'll soon realize that the question is not whether to use violence, but only when to use it.
My set designer Brian.. keep it mad keep it glad keep it gay
My costume designer Kevin.. keep it happy keep it snappy keep it gay
Scott my choreographer... HI THERE!
...
This may sound a bit to cautious... but
As a public servant and having to deal with the public on a daily basis it really is always about your safety first. You don't know. You really don't know. I don't care how many small scuffles you've been in. I am going to agree with AT on this one. Take pictures of your bike every time you change something. So you can post it here. Hand out flyers to the rides you go on. And if you know that some douche has a bike that is your fellow ridazz's. Follow (keep your distance) him/her and call the police. Simple. A Rida has been shot another stabbed and granted these are things that can happen anywhere at anytime but when you go seeking out trouble real trouble might find you.
(also renter's insurance will cover your jacked bike)
This only works if you have all the proper documentation: receipts showing purchase of bike, picture of said bike (taken by your insurance provider or agent to make sure you really have it) and a few other requirements.
I actually idolize simone de beauvoir for her "work" with (on?) Sartre -- thats courage.
I think this quote is warranted at this point in thread; it really touches a lot of points being made:
"But talk's cheap, I'm straight from the streets
I'm action-oriented when I'm screamin KILL CORRUPT POLICE
I read books, reap intelligence to compromise my bad looks"
-Non-phixion, "say goodbye too yesterday"
md2 responding to a comment by PC
09.16.09 - 1:46 pm
I've definitely heard that perspective on academia before. I was sort of surprised when I learned it's not as true as you think. In papers and at conferences, academics will shred each other. But in private, in smaller lectures, there's another thing that happens. Academics share their intuitions, their hunches, their loose arguments for which they have insufficient evidence. They listen to one anothers ideas, and it's interesting - they trust the same people they shred. Both the violent conflict of ideas and the nurturing of concepts are present. It's interesting to experience.
AT you live in a bubble or something.... let me put it to you like this....
when I was a teenager I used to roll with the "bike thief" crowd. NO not actual bike thieves per se, but with the miscreants the trouble makers the graffiti writers... we would "rack" from liquor stores, tag on shit, steal clothes and all kind of madness.... one particular day my friend and I were at a korean owned liquor store. (pro tip Koreans dont fuck around) my friend stole something from that store... it was nothing big like a candy bar or something like that... let me tell you, we were on our way back home walking up a hill when out of no where the owner's son jumps out and grabs my friend puts him in a choke hold and threatens to beat us down with a tire iron. it was pretty effin scary. we were only 14 or 15.... the dude finally let go of my friend and we took off.... let me tell you this.... we NEVER went back to that liquor store again and in fact learned of how ferocious Korean business owners can be.... it's not like we stopped being assholes to society right then and there - the worst was yet to come, but it was a lesson learned.... you car thief friend went through the same transformation that myself and many of my childhood friends went through. we lived and we got old and wised up for the most part. and that comes with ass beatings and knowing consequences and all that.
calculating your chances in a street fight is par for the course.... of course a lot of times it's NOT worth it BUT in fact when a street fight goes down usually everyone lives another day. I've been in my share of street fights including getting slashed in the face by glass and getting my ass royally beat the fuck down by big dudes and small. the point is that violence is part of our lives and in some cases lessons are learned the hard way. you learn other people's limits and if there is no resistance then you will keep going until you find someone's breaking point.
the thief that Moi and I chased down had punched our female friend in the face taking her bike right out of her hands. when she came into the bicycle kitchen crying we instantly jumped up and rolled the neighborhood looking for this guy. WHO WOULDN'T? we are animals after all and sometimes instinct takes over. sure, we could have been shot or housed by 20 of this dude's homies but that is life in LA. you take your chances and and SOMETIMES the opportunity arises where you can work to avenge crimes that the cops could seriously CARE LESS ABOUT. You know how I know the cops didnt give a shit?
When Moi and I got back with the bike, the cops were there and we urged them to rush over to Temple where the thief took off running. The cops instead used our friend by taking her in the squad car to an obviously unrelated incident in another area to "ID" a suspect. In other words they were sweating some gangsters in a shooting incident by rolling up with a "witness" in the squad car. They used her and didnt even bother to drive over to temple and hoover or bother to try to find the suspect. you cant always count on the cops... and in fact the cops dont care much about street fights bike thieves and the like because it's simply to difficult to sort out and at the end of the day they dont have the resources. sometimes you have to do the work yourself.
obviously if I confront a thief trying to steal my bike I will have to assess the situation. I'm not much of a fighter I'm a lover and I love my bike. I will risk getting my ass whooped for it. a good ass whoopin is good for the soul. it humbles you. of course if you win it emboldens you. even when you lose you gain a sense of emboldenment because you survived and days later you realize the pain wasnt so bad after all. it was your ego that hurt the most.
after all these years I've learned that diplomacy and love should transcend all.... but sometimes an asswhoopin does the trick too.
Roadblock responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 1:48 pm
I appreciate what you're saying here. I wrote this post fully aware of LA's wild nature, or more generally the wild nature of the world in general. I don't know why everyone is painting me as naive - I've been around, and I've done things. I guess it's just an easy way to discredit a potent argument. Anyone calling me naive is well, pretty naive about Alex.
LA's wild side - not the fun CRANK MOB side - but the degrading abuse of people, the violence and poverty - I don't think you have to be part of that. I think, I think you would be better off not being part of it. People are looking to you for indication of what's right, what's good. You can just feel it on the boards - "what does Roadblock think?"
You got it right there - when you chased the thief down you were taking a big risk. Would you take it if you had a kid to support? 5 kids? What about 1000 ridazz who take their cues from you?
We can look at the world and say "this is how it is." But I think it's better to say "this is how it is, and this is how I want to change it." I want people to think about their values. What is most important to them? To Los Angeles? Is it my personal property first, their safety second, my safety third?
Or is it human life first, human emotion second, and personal property third?
Dude... you really come across like your internalize forum chatter too much... damn dude...
I take your use of "shred" as mean or hurtful. I think the point is... truth is hard to come by these days... but some act as if they are enlightened and proud to have reached higher ground... though returning to the mean streets of L.A. will help guide some to the matters currently under discussion...
Arguing correctly is hard... the reality is that arguments can be cut up no matter the genius. Hence, welcome to academia... where this occurs... but no one meant it happens with knives and guns (least we speak of Wittgenstein). The point is, sometimes you have to bring yourself down, to feel like your on the right path to *ahem* truth (a la Roadblock's post too).
But i reserve the right to be wrong in everything.
md2 responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 2:09 pm
Another way to curtail bike-thievery is to install an effective, low-jack system on your prized rig.
Track it by satellite, go to the location, and steal that motherfucker back.
And to add insult to injury, have some incestuous porn-mags delivered to his/her address.
No one hurt, no one scathed, just alot of fingerpointing and ridicule brought upon the thief that will surely make them resort to offing themselves.
ALWAYS think of yourself and your life FIRST. always. always. You are right, a bike is not worth it. This is true if not completely obvious. But you also have to understand that if there is no resistance then the thieves continue to get even bolder. look at it from the opposite perspective.... do you fuck with gangsters? I don't. why? because they gang up (like pussies) and shoot you or beat your ass. We all know that gangsters dont fight fair and in fact will whoop our asses.... that means that we avoid fucking with them. if it became known that bicycle riders are fit and have stamina and will fight for their shit, I would think that it would make the thieves a little less brazen....
Roadblock responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 2:12 pm
If it were up to me, you'd be banned from the boards and rides. I see it as a failure of the community and a representation of our immaturity that we still don't know how to handle you. You've brought nothing but negativity since you started spamming the LACM message boards in 2004.
I want people to think about their values. What is most important to them? To Los Angeles? Is it my personal property first, their safety second, my safety third?
... you think of bikes as metal... to others its what helped them get to campus to earn a PHD. A little more than metal.
You just want to brush it under the topic of personal property... its more than just "i bought it, I have a receipt for it".
If someone stole my kid's first cycling gloves (which my child outgrew), i would be hurt, and feel like a huge loss has occured... I would fight to keep those items. Would I die for it? No... would I risk kicking someones ass who had the nerve to steal in certain manner? YES!!
If you wont... well enjoy your life... THE WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE IF PEOPLE VALUED THEIR BIKES that much
If you dont value the history or connection of your bike... good for you; others do. They pick their battles... dont assume your affection towards a bike is ours (not that you are), but you suggest a kind of hierarchy of values, all of which stem from this loose idea about valuing our life over a bike in case of "to catch a thief".
Some things are worth fighting for... and sometimes what you fight for isnt my battle.
md2 responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 2:24 pm
If someone punched my friend and made off with her bike - I'd probably give chase. I think - I think it's probably a bad idea. It's kind of hard for me to admit that my instinct is irrational like that but whatever.
But if you stop the thief - like you did - and recover the bike - why continue fighting after that? You stopped, and I think I would too. And that's thing I don't get about these messengers - they're beating this guy, the guy is not fighting back - he's asking them to stop - he's putting his hands up and saying he's sorry - and they keep it up. I can't understand that - I just don't want to hit someone when they do that.
Y'all - the height debate is retarded. The point I was making waaay back is more to do with weight than height - and yes - height is an advantage in a fight because it adds reach. But weight - weight is a definitive advantage in almost all forms of fighting - hence weight classes and the extreme difficulty in fighting up a weight class. This is true of street fighting as well, in particular because a gnarly fist fight usually goes to the ground where weight is a tremendous advantage. I'll bet when Roadblock is lean, no fat, he's still 240 or more. That's tremendous, and with that size, if he clobbers someone with a haymaker he could seriously break their neck. Knockout is nearly for sure.
Nooooooooo, I was referring to your self-imposed exile silly. The problem was that we should have been able to lift the ban, not you.
And you obviously haven't been around for awhile. I'm a changed man! :-) Sure I got a few haters, but who doesn't? Kinda expected if you speak your mind.
Spamming the LACM boards? Really? I wouldn't even be able to find them if I had to!
So how bout it? Ridazz going to see mandatory helmets on the robot rides?
User1 responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 2:35 pm
I don't get you AT. So you're saying we should just deal with it? Honestly, do you think the Police give a shit that your bike was stolen? How many people here actually insure their bike? I find it hard to understand that us, the majority outnumbering thieves, should go out of our way to accommodate them?
If bike theft rises, what should we do then? Install an alarm system? LoJack? Make the city install those Japanese Bicycle garages? Would the city do anything about it? How far do we have to go to insure ourselves? No one is doing anything about it and thieves continue to steal bikes every single day without worry. Sure a few might get detained but does that really deter all of them?
Do you think car thieves would fuck with a car that they tracked down to its residence that resided in "the hood?" Fuck no. They'd be shot dead. I'm not trying to say that cyclists should have the reputation of gang members against thieves but what else is there? If it were known that cyclists were not people to fuck with there would be a lot less bike theft going around.
I still don't understand just turning the other cheek and buying another bike while the thief enjoys his plunder of the night.
see that's why your words come off as naive to a lot of people on the boards.... you have to live through this shit to really understand that consequences like an ass whoopin can indeed be a deterrant.... ass whoopin's are ancient human nature.
if that bike thief in the video got caught and the messengers were just like "oh hey dude fuck you dont steal my bike again go away" and let him wander off, he would be under the impression that bike owners are not very ferocious about their property and he will go to the next block and try it again UNTIL he does get his fucking ass beat or arrested. the chances of being arrested is slim to none. the chances of getting his ass beat depend on how much people care about their bikes and whether he gets caught. you better believe that the thief in that video wont be so brazen as to try and steal a bike in the middle of the day for at least a few months....
to be honest, we didnt beat the thief down because it was a completely sketchy scenario. the thief moments earlier had been talking with a carload of dudes as he was riding to get away from us. I assume those dudes were friends of his. we were yelling that we called the cops and got their plate number and the dudes took off in their car.... where did they go? my experience tells me they might have gone to get more friends, weapons, perhaps they just ditched this guy.... we weren't going to stick around to find out. Moi is an intensely compassionate individual and I admire him for that greatly... it was his peaceful nature and the fact that we were in danger if this car came back that we chose to let this piece of shit go.... I have mixed emotions about it. but I'm glad we just took off. It wasnt smart to be in that area at 12am in that situation. it was empty but cars were approaching... was it his homies? who knows.... but my experience told me that it was completely possible that we could potentially get our asses beat by 10-20 dudes. It has happened to several people I know and not all of them survived.
Roadblock responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 2:40 pm
Yeah - feet - I'm saying just deal with it. How many people here can say they cannot afford to find a beater bike for transportation if their bike is jacked? If so, there is a sliding scale at the Kitchen, Bikerowave, and the Oven and they can help you get one. I don't see anyone's livelihood really being threatened here.
There's injustice in the world - like the bike thief getting away with it. Sometimes the best response is do nothing. If I did nothing more often I'd be way better off. Earlier today I got involved in some drama when I should have sat on the sidelines. It will cost me.
Or, if you've got the time, and you feel passionate about it - seek a policy or technical response to bike theft.
Or, you know, in most cases, people could just lock their bike up better. Make bike thievery tougher.
In agreement,
would you dare steal a Hells Angels bike or even touch it ?
NO, because you know you are risking your life.
This hippie pacifist concept is unrealistic,
and I belive that is why motorist target riders in traffic.
they have the perception that they are superior and will suffer no consiquences
I believe in hippie pacifism I really do, but there is a hazey line drawn where you have to stand up for yourself and at which point you just go animal with it.
and as far as the motorist suffering NO consequences? BEST BELIEVE that is the TRUTH. I'm doing everything I can to push out of my mind the thought that the drunken piece of shit who ran me down from behind is NOT going to go to jail... in fact he likely will not even get a felony hit and run. it makes this hippie steamed up knowning that the lesson this guy learned was that it is far better an option to run from the scene because the consequences are far less than being caught drunk.
Roadblock responding to a comment by Dedicated818
09.16.09 - 2:53 pm
Y'all - the height debate is retarded. The point I was making waaay back is more to do with weight than height - and yes - height is an advantage in a fight because it adds reach. But weight - weight is a definitive advantage in almost all forms of fighting -
Come on I was just joking.
But to say the height debate is retarded. And then instantly start debating about it.
Well I will let you finish where this thought is going.
buckchin responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 3:03 pm
eventually they will.... but it will take another generation or two. the american people are too ignorant to know they are being fucked over... just like in every corner of the world in every phase of history shows.... societies grow, eventually an oligarchy gains control and only thinks of it's own interests and the mass of people realizing they are getting jacked whoops the oligarchy's ass and then the process is reset until the people fall asleep and a new oligarchy takes over and the process repeats.
Roadblock responding to a comment by Dedicated818
09.16.09 - 3:08 pm
But I will say this. Violence never just ends with that violent act. There will always be more to follow, whether it was justified or not. One scenario is the bike thief goes home, taking the beat down into account and changes his life completely. Starts donating his time to the bike oven to make up for what he did.
Or he may decide that next time he should bring a weapon that can handle three cyclists.
And that he should also strike first to insure victory.
Or he and his bike stealing buddies may go looking for the people who beat him down
Or maybe he is the kind of guy that goes home and takes his anger out on his wife and/or kids.
Either way, usually Violence produces more violence.
very true very true..... it's all cyclical..... now you are bringing the hippie back out in me..... I think the reality is the thief already has a fucked up life at home. self esteem issues, lash out at society issues.... poor education.... I blame it mostly on education and lack of resources in our government. our system is churning out mcWorkers with no critical thinking or powers of empathy and our media is blasting images of selfish pop stars and politicians and advertisements for garbage into our brains....
we're fucked.
Roadblock responding to a comment by buckchin
09.16.09 - 3:20 pm
"The first principal of non-violent action is that of noncooperation with everything humiliating.", Cesar Chavez
Anyone who can make sense of that quote in the context of this discussion is a better (wo)man than me. Challenge laid down to Joe Borfo - how does one non-violently not cooperate with a bike theft in progress?
Thats AZ, off the Nas' Illmatic album, song "Lifes a Bitch"
"Visualizing the realism of life in actuality" - AZ (so dope)
"Live at the Barbecue"
is off the Main Source album, Breaking Atoms (great album)
Nasty Nas is a rebel to America
Police murderer, I'm causin hysteria
My troops roll up with a strange force
I was trapped in a cage and let out by the Main Source
md2 responding to a comment by buckchin
09.16.09 - 3:41 pm
Through the lights cameras and action, glamour glitters and gold
I unfold the scroll, plant seeds to stampede the globe
When I'm deceased, by then the beast arise like yeast
to conquer peace leaving savages to roam in the streets
Live on the run, police paying me to give in my gun
Trick my Wisdom, with the system that imprisoned my son
Smoke a gold leaf I hold heat, nonchalantly
I'm grungy, but things I do is real it never haunts me
while, funny style niggaz roll in the pile
Rooster heads profile on a bus to Riker's Isle
Holdin weed inside they pussy with they minds on the
pretty things in life, props is a true thug's wife
It's like a cycle, niggaz come home, some'll go in
Do a bullet, come back, do the same shit again
From the womb to the tomb, presume the unpredictable
Guns salute life, rapidly, that's the ritual
__more violent lyrics please................
md2 responding to a comment by Roadblock
09.16.09 - 3:51 pm
You confuse and distract them with annoying math problems, inane concepts, and repetitive and psychotic babble about right vs. wrong until they become so disoriented that they drop what they have stolen and run from you screaming.
Joe Borfo responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.16.09 - 3:56 pm
"That buck that bought a bottle could've struck the lotto"
Full Verse... Lifes a Bitch.. better hit LimeWire when you get home Roadblock...
I woke up early on my born day, I'm twenty years of blessing
The essence of adolescent leaves my body now I'm fresh in
My physical frame is celebrated cause I made it
One quarter through life some God-ly like thing created
Got rhymes 365 days annual plus some
Load up the mic and bust one, cuss while I puffs from
my skull cause it's pain in my brain vein money maintain
Don't go against the grain simple and plain
When I was young at this I used to do my thing hard
Robbin foreigners take they wallets they jewels and rip they green cards
Dipped to the projects flashin my quick cash
and got my first piece of ass smokin blunts with hash
Now it's all about cash in abundance, niggaz I used to run with
is rich or doin years in the hundreds
I switched my motto -- instead of sayin fuck tomorrow
That buck that bought a bottle could've struck the lotto
Once I stood on the block, loose cracks produce stacks
I cooked up and cut small pieces to get my loot back
Time is Illmatic keep static like wool fabric
Pack a four-matic that crack your whole cabbage
md2 responding to a comment by buckchin
09.16.09 - 3:59 pm
Back when I had my shop, several times I had to chase down bike thiefs.
Most of the chases end up with me crashing them at speed.
Road rash seemed like a just punishment.
Juvinile Div. handles bike theft so there is not a hole lot done about it.
Dedicated818
09.16.09 - 12:06 am
i keep trying to imagine if this was me, but i every time i visualize it, i see myself pushing the bike thief really hard, knocking both of us down. then the bike thief gets up and walks off with two bikes.
I've been living in Nigeria the past 4 months. What I saw in the above video looks like what happens a lot here, except with a ton more people. On the way home, at least once a week there's a fight or something, and some guy always gets hurt. If the police don't arrive fast enough to arrest the guy getting beat up, he'll probably get killed.
2 weeks ago, a motorcycle taxi crashed into a road worker at one of our project sites, killing him. Within 15 minutes, a mob had gathered and killed the motorcycle taxi driver. Now, I know we're talking about theft, and not manslaughter, but our drivers and staff have told us similar stories for stupid things like theft.
If you got good government, and trust me, you do!, use it.
-Marc
It takes a truly humble person to understand that statement.
#1 - I don't condone violence. Eye for an eye my ass.
However, most people are hung up on their own self worth and importance to want to not retaliate when wronged.
Most people have lost faith in the usefulness of the police. Some people also have a lot of hostility and are looking for an opportunity to lash out on someone.
Barking and whining about people's behavior is definitely not going to make any noticeable effect either. I do believe sometimes shaming is effective, but it only works if the individual has any sense of solidarity with it's community. You are not going to find much of that in L.A. except within our own small community of riders. You expect way too much from people if you think people are going to not want to become violent against a wrongdoer.
It makes sense that if a group of ridazz catch a thief in the act, they can win the bike back, hold the person, and bring the police in to take over the situation. I personally don't like that video on the top of the thread, and I personally would have engaged differently in confronting the guy.
You can make a subtle change through your own example. However, If you want to see quick results, scare the living shit out of the bastard so that they will choose to avoid practicing that action again - Without physically hurting him.
My method of dealing with a bike thief? If I can't get the bike back from him reasonably, just give up. There's nothing you can do. The world sucks.
I think it's about time for a screening of this? Bikerowave?
Joe Borfo responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.17.09 - 12:46 pm
I hate to say this but everyone here, myself include, is just flat out wrong.
Its not a problem of human nature, society, or right or wrong... The issue has been treated more accurately in recent years by Cedric the Entertainer.
You see many on this forum are "white people".
They suffer from the "hope" factor. In life, they "hope" nothing goes wrong in public, or amongst other people.
Now, "black people" on the other hand suffer from the "wish factor". In life, they "wish" a (bleep) would. They "wish" something goes wrong.
example:
White person: This restaurant is in miracle mile, but thats pretty close to Crenshaw blvd, I "hope" no one tries to steal our bikes. Hey, did you bring the wine bottle opener? Oh, darn, my brie and crackers got smashed in my Chrome bag.
Black person: I aint gonna lock my fucking bike, bitch!! I "wish" some little bitch ass trick tries to steal my bike, so I can beat the shit out of that fucker. Where's my 40oz?
Brown person: I need a bike... hmmm, this one only has a cable lock...
Thats enough stereotyping for a post.
Thank you Cedric; you solved this for us.
md2 responding to a comment by Joe Borfo
09.17.09 - 1:12 pm
OMG you should hear the people at my school. They aren't all white there...as a matter of fact I would say white people are a minority there. What they are is RICH. and RICH people are the worst kind of people....
anyways they'll say stuff like "oh, I don't go south of Wilshire. You'll get shot."
mo fo I used to live south of Wilshire. It isn't bad.
Dont be fooled... white people are everywhere, and they own everything.
If you cant see them, its because they have secret places to hide and laugh at us, while we pretend to enjoy life...
They watch us eat from all their hidden camera's around the world, and say amongst each other: "hahahaha, those colored folk think they just ate a good meal, hah!! Chef, come here. Look at that meal, go into the kitchen and make me something better."
When we ride our bikes they say, "hahahaha, that colored boy thinks he is training hard and can finally hang with his white buddies on Wolfpack, hahahaha.... Lance, come here, go to Los Angeles and invite those peasants on a ride, let them know how us white people really do it; those doping Contador loving fools... hahaha only sign autographs for white people too"
When we listen to music: "hahahahaha, you colored people think you can rap? hahaha... Dr. Dre, come here... sign this white boy to your label or I'll have the Russians sprinkle crack on you... lets name him, Eminem... like the candy, you know"
Be careful La Duderina... be very careful
md2 responding to a comment by la duderina
09.17.09 - 2:04 pm
I choose to be colorblind, but I do recognize class conflict. Whatever that means. I'm drunk, just ignore me. I hate talking about race issues. Waste of time. Never ending defeat of a topic. The way poverty effects behavior is what is more interesting to me... wait. what are we talking about?
south of wilshire? shit... what a small world they must live in. when i was growing up, people were afraid to go south of washington. personally, i live south of culver, the edge of civilization.
I'm from L dot A dot Californ-I-A hot
Days got shade let me take you 'round the way
Lot of out-of-towners can't handle this city
Where you wear the wrong color and it can get tricky
But that was eighty-six and, things done changed
We a lot mo' evolved with the way that we bang
Not the rips and the dawgs, man the smog might kill ya
But you ain't gotta worry if you stayin north of Wilshire
Don't be scared of Crenshaw, the Slausson super-mall
Or Earl's Hot Dogs man you gotta do it y'all, c'mon
Come to the hood where we do the most good
Magic Johnson be ownin everything like he should
Lynnwood, Long Beach, Hawthorne, GARDENA
From the towers in Watts, to the hills of ALTA DENA
The home of the traffic and that gangbang culture
And I hope the way we do the damn thang don't insult ya
I'm from L.A. (ahh) Southern California
Fool the West coast, where everybody is somebody
And the game is fame, do every thang with a bang
And everybody wanna know, what set you claim
--Murs "L.A."
md2 responding to a comment by tortuga_veloce
09.17.09 - 4:07 pm
For me it's a challenge to come up with non-violent means of non-cooperation.
Another way to see it is that what you find humiliating in part dictates what you must not cooperate with. If you find many things humiliating, it can be a prison. Think of the bully who considers everything an affront to his dignity - his actions are dictated by his severe concept of pride.
The other point is that humiliation inspires resistance best.
I just tried reading this thread. I was physically unable to keep my finger off the Page Dn key. It happened somewhere around the disingenuous "shocked, shocked" line in the followup post. Please. The whole reason that Jesus invented blogs was so that people who wanted to read poorly-formulated ramblings would know where to go to find them and so that the remaining 99.9999% of human civilization wouldn't have to bother with them.
"For me it's a challenge to come up with non-violent means of non-cooperation. "
(how do you guys italicize??)
Anyhow, why not just give up the principle then? Maybe Chavez didnt even know what he was talking about (a la Hegel).
I think this is all worth thinking about, its just that I have this hunch that people are not as "good' as we want them to be. Hence, your police state/society, hence punishment, hence what do we do with the free-rider, the person who does not want to adhere to a given set of principles????
Any action pretty much seems like a degree of force upon a body (i.e. against a bodies will to do otherwise).
What we need is a Brave New World.... and make sure it has Soma (not the smashing pumpkins song)
md2 responding to a comment by Alex Thompson
09.17.09 - 5:29 pm
no one is probably reading this by now but i had to post...its been bugging me since i watched that video...that dude jacking the bike in AT's video had a fatass beer gut, whoopin his ass would prove nothin...he probably has like 8 kids to feed and just look at him does it look like he makes money...now if that were some little crank mobber newbie who lives off his daddy's nuts n mommy's allowance and is in considerably good shape and healthy enough to make his own money and who probably carries a knife anyways and would actually be a challenging fight - i say yeah fuck his world inside out.
..and AT, seriously though you cant be snitchin on ninjas fo shiz like that.
"At what point did the loss, or near loss, of a $500, $1000, or $2000 bike entitle you to scare the shit out of someone?"
Ahhheeeem. We do not live in the same world Mr Thompson.
and this... "I’ll say this - if any vigilante action goes down, I’ll discuss with the police the names of the people who have proposed these things."
is getting involved in things that are none of your business.
y you gotta be all nosy and dramatic and shit. -1
-->
Ridazz Roulette!
LOL! This is too cute.
Why can't we always have 420 Laharr with us at times of crisis?
I meant ->
You confuse and distract them with annoying math problems, inane concepts, and repetitive and psychotic babble about right vs. wrong until they become so disoriented that they drop what they have stolen and run from you screaming.
What the frack do you want me to say, Alex?
